Wales v Australia, 1/12/12, k/o 14:30. DISCUSSION/MATCH THREAD, PREDICTIONS POLL & TEAMS

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

So, on the back of Wales's 10-33 defeat to New Zealand, and Australia's 19-22 victory over Italy, we look towards the final Autumn fixture for both teams.

Having played each other five times in the last twelve months, with the three Tests in the Summer ending 27-19, 25-23, and 20-19, this was, prior to the Autumn, the SANZAR scalp Wales must have felt they could realistically take on home soil.

How important is it for Wales to win? Must they win to hold onto their 'top-8' status, to try and avoid either England or Ireland, and equally so Argentina and Samoa, in their World Cup group? Or do they need to win to halt the decline since the Grand Slam success and the competitiveness of the Australia tour in the Summer? Do they need to win to have any hope of defending their 6 Nations crown? What effect does regional form have upon the way the players performed this Autumn? Can they beat Australia, and how? Should we look outside the current squad, especially in certain positions in the pack, due to injury and non-released players? If so, who do we bring in?




It has not gone to plan for Wales. Sitting in 4th spot on the iRB rankings following the Grand Slam success, they were in 6th place prior to the Autumn series and attempting to regain the coveted 4th to ensure a 'favourable' draw for the World Cup. However, they now sit tentatively in 7th position, only just ahead of Argentina and Samoa, both victorious at the Millennium Stadium, and a defeat to the Wallabies will mean they will have fallen from 4th to 9th following 7 straight Test defeats, and they will be in the third 'tier' for the World Cup seedings. This means they would face one of the first tier (New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, France) and one of the second tier (England, Ireland, Samoa, Argentina) in their group if they lose next Saturday.

This cannot be the position Wales expected to be in three weeks ago, yet having been deservedly beaten in the first two fixtures due to playing a pedestrian, 'territorially-minded' game-plan, they can have little complaint. It was only until the last half hour of the NZ game that Wales displayed any acceptance that their tactics were not conducive to success; you cannot score tries without the ball, and against the best teams you will be slaughtered if you kick down their throats. With New Zealand able to take it down a notch or two around the 50 minute mark, having being invited onto the ball, which they duly did, scoring 33 unanswered points, Wales finally played the running rugby they ought to be famed for, but it was too little too late.

Aside from the tactical noose that is evidently not working, or indeed not being implemented successfully and without error so that Wales can play the low-risk strategy Gatland favours, selection has been a major issue. For the Argentina game, with Ryan Jones and Dan Lydiate injured,
Josh Turnbull started at 6, with his club captain McCusker the back row cover on the bench. Both of these were selected ahead of their Scarlets teammate Aaron Shingler, who was playing exceptionally better rugby at regional level and, when called upon against New Zealand, performed admirably and effectively, something that cannot be said for Turnbull and McCusker. Mike Phillips, although excellent defensively, and a danger when sniping at close quarters, as he did yesterday, is woefully slow to the breakdown, especially when a linebreak is made, something in itself that is too infrequent for Wales. Tavis Knoyle is marginally better, although he himself, like the admission of Shingler, is arguably no longer the strongest scrum half for his region, with Gareth Davies in fine form. With Richie Rees, perhaps the best Welsh distributor after Dwayne Peel, no longer in Gatland's plans, and Rhys Webb ignored, there is decidedly little to choose from. Poor service, whoever it comes from, has been used poorly by Priestland, subject to ironic cheering from the crowd when successfully kicking to touch prior to Wales's first try against NZ and when replaced by James Hook. Priestland has been kicking almost persistently to the detriment of the team, but with the constant repetition of the mantra about 'territory' and "playing in the right areas" ('Re-boot the attack' section), the coaches must be pleased with his decision making, his only fault his execution. With James Hook having played 13 minutes all Series, and unavailable for the Australia game, and the extent of Dan Biggar's injury unknown at present, Priestland is likely to remain in the 10 shirt. Liam Williams performed admirably when he stepped up for George North, as did Scott Andrews for the injured Aaron Jarvis. The latter will likely start in Jarvis's absence, but with a reliance of Halfpenny's boot, Liam Williams will, in all probability, miss out. With French-based players (the excellent Charteris, Phillips, and the somewhat out of form Gethin Jenkins) missing out on selection due to the game falling outside the iRB window, and possibly English-based players too, the squad may be weakened somewhat. With AWJ unavailable, Bradley Davies floored, and uncertainty over Ian Evans, we are facing something of a second row crisis. However, for me, the best 15 we could produce, based on who is in the squad, is as follows. Feel free to add your own:

1. Paul James
2. Ken Owens
3. Scott Andrews
4. Luke Charteris
5. Ian Evans
6. Aaron Shingler
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Tavis Knoyle
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Scott Williams
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Matthew Rees
17. Ryan Bevington
18. Samson Lee
19. Ryan Jones
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Lloyd Williams
22. Rhys Priestland
23. Liam Williams

*If both starting second rows are unavailable, we are in something of a crisis. We would likely be forced to start with Ryan Jones at lock, and possibly Lou Reed too, with Aaron Shingler covering the position, and someone else coming in to fill a replacement position. But I do not know who.

This is far from the 15 I think is the 'best', but it is the best of what I can make with who is in the squad.

So on to Australia. I do not believe that they are a confident team, nowhere near the free-flowing, off the cuff team of two years ago, with key players such as David Pocock struggling (though the excellent Michael Hooper has stepped up in his absence) and James Horwill suffering with injury. At the end of a long tour, Wales have to see them as beatable. Yet, on the back the tightest of wins against Italy, they will surely be fully prepared, and any expectations of catching them dreaming of the sunny shores of home will most probably be misplaced, and punished by the men in gold. Berrick Barnes is a key man, who will punish Wales on the scoreboard in a manner Priestland chose not to in the first half against New Zealand; any mistakes will be chipped away 3 by 3, and if we kick to the Wallabies three quarters, they have the running ability to cut us to shreds. Yet the size of our midfield ought to be an asset, and if we keep the ball in hand, Scott Williams and Jon Davies are capable of both creating and scoring tries. I feel their selection over the injury prone Jamie Roberts, who has been ineffective, and needs time away from international rugby to regain form and develop his game from simply being a human wrecking ball, is imperative to Wales playing a quicker game, less reliant on their formulaic and obvious ball carriers, something Samoa said they were all too aware of. The England-Australia game was tight, but winnable for England, a team who I think are about on a par with Wales, both playing their own brand of tactically poor rugby that does their talented players a disservice (no Mike Phillips pun intended). In this sense, Wales can and should win, regardless of their form in the previous 3 games. It's imperative for World Cup rankings, but perhaps more importantly, to stop the slide and finally get the win, and psychological boon that comes with it, that they ought to have had in the Summer, but for some silly mistakes.

Wales team to face Australia:
15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Liam Williams
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Mike Phillips

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Matthew Rees
3. Scott Andrews
4. Luke Charteris
5. Ian Evans
6. Aaron Shingler
7. Sam Warburton (capt)
8. Toby Faletau.

Bench:
16. Ken Owens
17 Ryan Bevington
18. Samson Lee
19. Ryan Jones
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Tavis Knoyle
22. Dan Biggar
23. Scott Williams

Australia team to face Wales:

15. Berrick Barnes
14. Nick Cummins
13. Adam Ashley-Cooper
12. Ben Tapuai
11. Drew Mitchell
10. Kurtley Beale
9. Nick Phipps

1. Benn Robinson
2. Tatafu Polota Nau
3. Ben Alexander
4. Kane Douglas
5. Nathan Sharpe (capt)
6. Scott Higginbotham
7. David Pocock
8.Wycliff Palu

Bench:
16. Stephen Moore
17. James Slipper
18. Sekope Kepu
19. Dave Dennis
20. Michael Hooper
21. Brendan McKibbin
22. Mike Harris
23. Digby Ioane.

[BlueNote]

I'll be behind RP tomorrow, and I'm sure he'll come through this patch, but the thing is, the lineout has to be 5 yards out anyway, so there's no need to push it so close - those were truly awful mistakes with a major impact on the game.

In some ways the most apparently surprising selection is Shingler over Ryan Jones. I would guess that's partly because RJ won't have been able to train properly with the team this week. Shingler certainly has the physical attributes to be effective at international level, though, and did pretty well against NZ.

Looking at those lineups, the Aussies ought to be fairly firm favourites.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

This is RPs chance to prove that he should have been the IRBs most embaressing nomination for layer of the year.
It is the big game of the weekend and the one most likely to be comeptitive, if Wales turn up. This should be a pivotal game in his career, if he stands up and actually produces and Wales come away with a win then all will be forgiven and he will be a hero again, just like when ARs scotland beat the aussies(that is to say the feel good will last a couple of months then he'll be out of favour again)

Joking aside in both games we have young FHs who havent lived up to the hype recently but who both have a chance to make names for themsleves. I fancy RP has a better chance of doing that than OF does, certainly a better chance of being on the right end of good scoreline. I find it hard to beleive that a huge gap has suddenly grown between two teams that have gone toe to toe in tight games (the joke fixture aside) recently. This matters far more to Wales than it does to Aus who are at the end of a long drinking tour.

[Casartelli]

Priestland deserves some sympathy. He's a thoroughly decent club/regional player and seems a nice chap.

He hit the form of his life in the pre RWC games but, as the saying goes, form is temporary and (international) class is permanent. He's out of his depth in test rugby.

Priestland and Biggar are much of a muchness in terms of ability. The difference (which is highlighted by the Gatland kick & chase tactics) is that Biggar is a good kicker of a rugby ball.

If we played a more all-round game, with the No.10 passing, making half-breaks and 'releasing the backline', then Priestland might just make a fist of it. But we don't.

[samuraidragon]

MM, I don't think anyone is saying RP is to blame for the defeats. They are just saying he is very poor and has been for a while, and that his kicking out-of-hand is one of the weakest parts of his game. Even so he gets getting picked time after time.

He had a shocker against England in the 6N, but we won that game (thank you, Scott Williams) so it was forgotten. Now we are losing, people are less forgiving.

What kind of message does it give that a player who is woefully out of form (and not that talented in the first place!) keeps getting picked time and again, while Biggar & Hook warm the bench or sit in the stands in shirt and tie? Robotically following orders seems to be a sure path to selection.

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

[maestegmafia]

BlueNote, I am a big fan of Shingler. I watched him play one of his early games against the Ospreys and the crowd were shouting blue in the face at some of the stuff he was doing. He is a niggley, clever player on the floor who makes a huge difference. He is also an athletic bloke who get around very quickly, supports extremely well and defends beautifully.

We are very lucky to have a number of good blindsides.

[maestegmafia]

MM, I don't think anyone is saying RP is to blame for the defeats. They are just saying he is very poor and has been for a while, and that his kicking out-of-hand is one of the weakest parts of his game. Even so he gets getting picked time after time.

He had a shocker against England in the 6N, but we won that game (thank you, Scott Williams) so it was forgotten. Now we are losing, people are less forgiving.

What kind of message does it give that a player who is woefully out of form (and not that talented in the first place!) keeps getting picked time and again, while Biggar & Hook warm the bench or sit in the stands in shirt and tie? Robotically following orders

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

It's Gareth Cooper all over again, in my view.

You have also seen RP play exceptionally well, 2010-11 for Scarlets, pre RWC for Wales, RWC for Wales, HEC 2011 for Scarlets you couldn't fault him. He will do so again. I really think that he is not playing anywhere near as badly as many of you consistently blame.

He was a brave young man to admit on public sports news that he was seeing a sports psychologist. 99% of form issues are either psychological or injuries, he has had injuries while playing all last year post RWC, and he is doing something to put his head straight.

[Casartelli]

MM, I don't think anyone is saying RP is to blame for the defeats. They are just saying he is very poor and has been for a while, and that his kicking out-of-hand is one of the weakest parts of his game. Even so he gets getting picked time after time.

He had a shocker against England in the 6N, but we won that game (thank you, Scott Williams) so it was forgotten. Now we are losing, people are less forgiving.

What kind of message does it give that a player who is woefully out of form (and not that talented in the first place!) keeps getting picked time and again, while Biggar & Hook warm the bench or sit in the stands in shirt and tie? Robotically following orders seems to be a sure path to selection.

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

To be honest, I'd rather have seen Cooper at 10 tomorrow.

[maestegmafia]

MM, I don't think anyone is saying RP is to blame for the defeats. They are just saying he is very poor and has been for a while, and that his kicking out-of-hand is one of the weakest parts of his game. Even so he gets getting picked time after time.

He had a shocker against England in the 6N, but we won that game (thank you, Scott Williams) so it was forgotten. Now we are losing, people are less forgiving.

What kind of message does it give that a player who is woefully out of form (and not that talented in the first place!) keeps getting picked time and again, while Biggar & Hook warm the bench or sit in the stands in shirt and tie? Robotically following orders seems to be a sure path to selection.

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

To be honest, I'd rather have seen Cooper at 10 tomorrow.

I do not believe you a serious.

Bandwagon anti hype against Priestland. I hope he gets those two kicks right and proves you wrong.

[Casartelli]

MM, I don't think anyone is saying RP is to blame for the defeats. They are just saying he is very poor and has been for a while, and that his kicking out-of-hand is one of the weakest parts of his game. Even so he gets getting picked time after time.

He had a shocker against England in the 6N, but we won that game (thank you, Scott Williams) so it was forgotten. Now we are losing, people are less forgiving.

What kind of message does it give that a player who is woefully out of form (and not that talented in the first place!) keeps getting picked time and again, while Biggar & Hook warm the bench or sit in the stands in shirt and tie? Robotically following orders seems to be a sure path to selection.

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

To be honest, I'd rather have seen Cooper at 10 tomorrow.

I do not believe you a serious.

Bandwagon anti hype against Priestland. I hope he gets those two kicks right and proves you wrong.

I hope he doesn't attempt any kicks whatsoever. Just stand still, pop up passes to Roberts and Cuthbert and hope for a miracle.

[samuraidragon]

MM, I don't think anyone is saying RP is to blame for the defeats. They are just saying he is very poor and has been for a while, and that his kicking out-of-hand is one of the weakest parts of his game. Even so he gets getting picked time after time.

He had a shocker against England in the 6N, but we won that game (thank you, Scott Williams) so it was forgotten. Now we are losing, people are less forgiving.

What kind of message does it give that a player who is woefully out of form (and not that talented in the first place!) keeps getting picked time and again, while Biggar & Hook warm the bench or sit in the stands in shirt and tie? Robotically following orders

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

It's Gareth Cooper all over again, in my view.

You have also seen RP play exceptionally well, 2010-11 for Scarlets, pre RWC for Wales, RWC for Wales, HEC 2011 for Scarlets you couldn't fault him. He will do so again. I really think that he is not playing anywhere near as badly as many of you consistently blame.

He was a brave young man to admit on public sports news that he was seeing a sports psychologist. 99% of form issues are either psychological or injuries, he has had injuries while playing all last year post RWC, and he is doing something to put his head straight.

Haven't seen many Scarlets games, so can't really comment. He was outplayed by Biggar in the derby, though. In the WC, he was very good for Wales against Ireland in particular and decent vs. Ireland in the 6N. At that time I thought we had uncovered a gem who combined the flair of James Hook and the temperament of Stephen Jones. In retrospect it looks more like the flair of Stephen Jones and the temperament of Hookie.

I do remember one Scarlets fan on this board - forget who - saying that RP was playing well above himself in those games, and it was just a matter of time before he crashed and burnt. How right he was.

I wouldn't have admitted publicly to seeing a shrink either. Makes him an obvious target.

[maestegmafia]

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

To be honest, I'd rather have seen Cooper at 10 tomorrow.

I do not believe you a serious.

Bandwagon anti hype against Priestland. I hope he gets those two kicks right and proves you wrong.

I hope he doesn't attempt any kicks whatsoever. Just stand still, pop up passes to Roberts and Cuthbert and hope for a miracle.

He missed to kicks, many of the others were brilliant.

[Casartelli]

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

To be honest, I'd rather have seen Cooper at 10 tomorrow.

I do not believe you a serious.

Bandwagon anti hype against Priestland. I hope he gets those two kicks right and proves you wrong.

I hope he doesn't attempt any kicks whatsoever. Just stand still, pop up passes to Roberts and Cuthbert and hope for a miracle.

He missed to kicks, many of the others were brilliant.

Yeah, the cross kick to Savea/Dagg for their first try was a peach.

[samuraidragon]

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

To be honest, I'd rather have seen Cooper at 10 tomorrow.

I do not believe you a serious.

Bandwagon anti hype against Priestland. I hope he gets those two kicks right and proves you wrong.

I hope he doesn't attempt any kicks whatsoever. Just stand still, pop up passes to Roberts and Cuthbert and hope for a miracle.

He missed to kicks, many of the others were brilliant.

I half-agree. He put in some nice chips for the wingers to run onto. But, IIRC, these were before the missed touches, which seemed to crush his confidence. Afterwards he reverted to booting away possession , which in one case led to an AB try.

He consistently kicked away possession vs Oz on the summer tour too. Yes, I know that was part of the coaches' gameplan. That's part of the same problem.

[maestegmafia]

It's Gareth Cooper all over again - except RP has had more chances than Cooper, and Cooper did score an awesome solo try vs the Boks.

To be honest, I'd rather have seen Cooper at 10 tomorrow.

I do not believe you a serious.

Bandwagon anti hype against Priestland. I hope he gets those two kicks right and proves you wrong.

I hope he doesn't attempt any kicks whatsoever. Just stand still, pop up passes to Roberts and Cuthbert and hope for a miracle.

He missed to kicks, many of the others were brilliant.

Yeah, the cross kick to Savea/Dagg for their first try was a peach.

It was to Halfpenny, Savea and Dagg combined with exceptional skill to score that try. Appropriating blame on Priestland for the kick is ridiculous.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

You cant blame RP for that ...it was clealry a pre planned move which wasnt far from coming off. The dfence didnt get ogrnaissed quickly enough and frankly NZ were brilliant scoring from it. Gatland went it with a high risk startergy and chicked his black book of trick plays out ...it didnt come off.
RP can be balmed for the line misses, not the tactics or that try.

[Smirnoffpriest]

I'd give up Maes - their intent on their scapegoat (similar to Hook post-WC, Jones for the few seasons before the WC, Jon Davies even came in for a bit in the 2011 6N's, as did Biggar 2010-11)

[Mr Taff]

I miss Steven Jones.

[Smirnoffpriest]

Yeah PSW - Gats showed a lot of balls with his strategy and it could have come off, we went for the corner early on, and the he said the intent was to try the 14 man lineout early on - that would have put us 7 points up, and if you think NZ could have been down to 14 men by that time, Wales could really been on the front foot. And with the strategy Wales were playing, and wanting to take it to NZ anything could have happened.

The idea was a good one and seemed like it could work, of course the execution wasn't there and it didn't.

[Mr Taff]

Yeah PSW - Gats showed a lot of balls with his strategy and it could have come off, we went for the corner early on, and the he said the intent was to try the 14 man lineout early on - that would have put us 7 points up, and if you think NZ could have been down to 14 men by that time, Wales could really been on the front foot. And with the strategy Wales were playing, and wanting to take it to NZ anything could have happened.

The idea was a good one and seemed like it could work, of course the execution wasn't there and it didn't.

Quite a few ifs and buts in there.

[Smirnoffpriest]

I miss Steven Jones.

There weren't many people saying that when he was playing for us - I remember lots of 'Ohh great we're going to lose, they've chosen wellies' and 'how can you leave a player like Hook on the bench and chose someone as slow as Stephen Jones...' ect

As soon as he went to Wasps and was left out of the Wales side - suddenly it's 'If only wellies was here...' ect.

[Mr Taff]

I was one of the few who really admired to work of Wellies. Why people are calling for the likes of James Hook i'll never know. He has had plenty of chances and failed in most of them.

[Coleman]

Tickets are buy one get one free now.

[samuraidragon]

I miss Steven Jones.

I don't. Already forgotten the bottled dropkick in the World Cup, missed touch that gave the Irish the slam and numerous mediocre international games since 2008?

[Smirnoffpriest]

Yeah PSW - Gats showed a lot of balls with his strategy and it could have come off, we went for the corner early on, and the he said the intent was to try the 14 man lineout early on - that would have put us 7 points up, and if you think NZ could have been down to 14 men by that time, Wales could really been on the front foot. And with the strategy Wales were playing, and wanting to take it to NZ anything could have happened.

The idea was a good one and seemed like it could work, of course the execution wasn't there and it didn't.

Quite a few ifs and buts in there.

Yeah and even some IfandorButs! ;p

I didn't mean it to sound like - if we'd done this we would have won, or if that would have happened - saying we should have won.

I meant it to say that Gat chose a plan that could well have come off, it wasn't a terrible tactic, and Priestland went for the corner for a reason. And then If it had come off then Ifandorbut....

I don't think the decisions were wrong, just the execution in the kicks for Priestland (and he wasn't too far off). It was poor, but he didn't single-handley lose us the game.

[Mr Taff]

Keep with the ifs and buts, it gives us the moral victory.

[samuraidragon]

Yeah PSW - Gats showed a lot of balls with his strategy and it could have come off, we went for the corner early on, and the he said the intent was to try the 14 man lineout early on - that would have put us 7 points up, and if you think NZ could have been down to 14 men by that time, Wales could really been on the front foot. And with the strategy Wales were playing, and wanting to take it to NZ anything could have happened.

The idea was a good one and seemed like it could work, of course the execution wasn't there and it didn't.

Quite a few ifs and buts in there.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, "we drew with them on points in the 2nd half..." all very 2004, if you ask me.

Here's the thing. If you kick to the AB back 3 , you EXPECT exceptional skills. That's what they do. The Ozzies are exactly the same. Kick to Beale, Barnes, AAC and co, even in their own 22 and they may well score a try.

Put some bluddy points on the board, instead of resorting to the desperate stuff right from the start.

[BlueNote]

Maesteg, I'm sure he's got a big future. I never understood how Turnbull and McCusker were selected in front of him. We'll see how he goes on Saturday.

[Guest]

That crossfield kick for Halfpenny was a little ambitious wasn't it?

Halfpenny is about 5'8, Savea is a good 6'4. Who has the advantage when competing for the ball in the air?

[Smirnoffpriest]

Keep with the ifs and buts, it gives us the moral victory.

I'm not saying If we'd done this we would have won or anything like that - or any nonsense of moral victories.

I'm just saying that before the game/onset of the game Gats strategy though high risk was a good one and one which could have paid dividends.

And IMO the decision to go for the corner - based on that strategy - was the right one.

What's wrong with that?

[Smirnoffpriest]

Yeah PSW - Gats showed a lot of balls with his strategy and it could have come off, we went for the corner early on, and the he said the intent was to try the 14 man lineout early on - that would have put us 7 points up, and if you think NZ could have been down to 14 men by that time, Wales could really been on the front foot. And with the strategy Wales were playing, and wanting to take it to NZ anything could have happened.

The idea was a good one and seemed like it could work, of course the execution wasn't there and it didn't.

Quite a few ifs and buts in there.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, "we drew with them on points in the 2nd half..." all very 2004, if you ask me.

Here's the thing. If you kick to the AB back 3 , you EXPECT exceptional skills. That's what they do. The Ozzies are exactly the same. Kick to Beale, Barnes, AAC and co, even in their own 22 and they may well score a try.

Put some bluddy points on the board, instead of resorting to the desperate stuff right from the start.

Who said anything about 'drawing with them on points in the 2nd half'? or kicking to their back 3.

I was saying that if Priestland kicked to the corner (which seemed less of a risk that going for the posts) then Gats said Wales would have used the 14 man lineout and it was likely to have scored a try - hence putting 5 points on the board - which is what you wanted.

Not sure what you're on about with the desperate stuff?

In the end we got beaten by a better team who executed the simple stuff much, much better than we did, and were a lot more ruthless.

I was just talking about just Wales in the 1st 5 mins...

[samuraidragon]

Keep with the ifs and buts, it gives us the moral victory.

I'm not saying If we'd done this we would have won or anything like that - or any nonsense of moral victories.

I'm just saying that before the game/onset of the game Gats strategy though high risk was a good one and one which could have paid dividends.

And IMO the decision to go for the corner - based on that strategy - was the right one.

What's wrong with that?

Disagree. In the last 15 mins, yes, but not from the start. It sends the message that you don't really expect to win. And that was the reality. Gatland never thought we had a chance playing good solid rugby.

[Mr Taff]

Keep with the ifs and buts, it gives us the moral victory.

I'm not saying If we'd done this we would have won or anything like that - or any nonsense of moral victories.

I'm just saying that before the game/onset of the game Gats strategy though high risk was a good one and one which could have paid dividends.

And IMO the decision to go for the corner - based on that strategy - was the right one.

What's wrong with that?

Think back to our first attacking lineout, it failed so therefore the chance of taking a 3 point lead had gone. That should of made them change back to more 'sane' tactics instead of gambling for a try but we didn't. The more we went for the try, the more we failed and the All Blacks kept the points ticking over. We lost the game, the All Blacks didn't need to try hard to take the victory. Those tactics were not fit for Grandslam champions.

[samuraidragon]

.

[/quote]

Who said anything about 'drawing with them on points in the 2nd half'? quote]

Gatland did, and quite a few pundits,

[samuraidragon]

Keep with the ifs and buts, it gives us the moral victory.

I'm not saying If we'd done this we would have won or anything like that - or any nonsense of moral victories.

I'm just saying that before the game/onset of the game Gats strategy though high risk was a good one and one which could have paid dividends.

And IMO the decision to go for the corner - based on that strategy - was the right one.

What's wrong with that?

Think back to our first attacking lineout, it failed so therefore the chance of taking a 3 point lead had gone. That should of made them change back to more 'sane' tactics instead of gambling for a try but we didn't. The more we went for the try, the more we failed and the All Blacks kept the points ticking over. We lost the game, the All Blacks didn't need to try hard to take the victory. Those tactics were not fit for Grandslam champions.

Agreed. Chasing the game from the opening whistle.

[Mr Taff]

Keep with the ifs and buts, it gives us the moral victory.

I'm not saying If we'd done this we would have won or anything like that - or any nonsense of moral victories.

I'm just saying that before the game/onset of the game Gats strategy though high risk was a good one and one which could have paid dividends.

And IMO the decision to go for the corner - based on that strategy - was the right one.

What's wrong with that?

Disagree. In the last 15 mins, yes, but not from the start. It sends the message that you don't really expect to win. And that was the reality. Gatland never thought we had a chance playing good solid rugby.

+1

[Smirnoffpriest]

I disagree - we could just have easily missed the kick (indeed we missed a few pens) but if we'd had a 14 man lineout our chances of winning possession would be huge, as would the likelihood of driving over to score a try.

Also I think trying to go for the try and jugular from the start showed confidence and showed we were confident that it wouldn't be the last time we'd work our way into their 22, so we knew we'd create more chances.

I think it shows more confidence that you can match the opposition and win, than less.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Could you with a straight face say Wales had a chance by playing regular rugby?

"We can beat anyone on our day, its purely coincidence we just keep losing"


Lets not forget that NZ played their trick lineout too...were they chasing the game from the whistle? Running scared?

[Mr Taff]

I disagree - we could just have easily missed the kick (indeed we missed a few pens) but if we'd had a 14 man lineout our chances of winning possession would be huge, as would the likelihood of driving over to score a try.
Also I think trying to go for the try and jugular from the start showed confidence and showed we were confident that it wouldn't be the last time we'd work our way into their 22, so we knew we'd create more chances.

I think it shows more confidence that you can match the opposition and win, than less.

We did have an attacking lineout in the first 2 minutes but we didn't go for the 13 man lineout. Poor tactics.

[Mr Taff]

Anyone else fed up of hearing the players say "this is a must win game" every week? I am.

Do the talking on the pitch.

[samuraidragon]

Could you with a straight face say Wales had a chance by playing regular rugby?

"We can beat anyone on our day, its purely coincidence we just keep losing"


Lets not forget that NZ played their trick lineout too...were they chasing the game from the whistle? Running scared?

That wasn't a trick. It was the same well worked move that got them a try in the world cup final.

The ABs put 3 penalties on the board beforew they started the slick stuff. After that, one try was enough put them out of sight.

[Guest]

Anyone else fed up of hearing the players say "this is a must win game" every week? I am.

Do the talking on the pitch.

Most of the time when players or coaches talk to the press it is beyond tedious, just regurgitated breuacratic nonsense. For example All Blacks players saying the Welsh game will be "tough". Well what else were they honestly going to say? Imagine if they had been truthful and said: "Well, they have injuries to some key players, they are currently on a losing streak of 5 games, some of their non injured key players are not on form or had much game time this season, they haven't beaten us in 60 years, we haven't lost in 22 games on the trot, had a clean sweep in the Rugby Championship"

Will the game be tough? Absolutely, who in their right minds thinks a test match wont be tough? Such a lack of insight.

[Mr Taff]

Anyone else fed up of hearing the players say "this is a must win game" every week? I am.

Do the talking on the pitch.

Most of the time when players or coaches talk to the press it is beyond tedious, just regurgitated breuacratic nonsense. For example All Blacks players saying the Welsh game will be "tough". Well what else were they honestly going to say? Imagine if they had been truthful and said: "Well, they have injuries to some key players, they are currently on a losing streak of 5 games, some of their non injured key players are not on form or had much game time this season, they haven't beaten us in 60 years, we haven't lost in 22 games on the trot, had a clean sweep in the Rugby Championship"

Will the game be tough? Absolutely, who in their right minds thinks a test match wont be tough? Such a lack of insight.

"it is beyond tedious, just regurgitated breuacratic nonsense" - Well said. Why bother with press conferences these days if that is all we are going to hear?

[Smirnoffpriest]

I disagree - we could just have easily missed the kick (indeed we missed a few pens) but if we'd had a 14 man lineout our chances of winning possession would be huge, as would the likelihood of driving over to score a try.
Also I think trying to go for the try and jugular from the start showed confidence and showed we were confident that it wouldn't be the last time we'd work our way into their 22, so we knew we'd create more chances.

I think it shows more confidence that you can match the opposition and win, than less.

We did have an attacking lineout in the first 2 minutes but we didn't go for the 13 man lineout. Poor tactics.

I'm just going on what Gats said - he said they wanted to really take the game to NZ from the off and try and put a significant score on them - and then asked did the team plan to do the 13 man lineout, Gats said that they were planning on doing it early in the game but didn't have the opportunity because of the missed kicks to touch.

[Casartelli]

I was one of the few who really admired to work of Wellies. Why people are calling for the likes of James Hook i'll never know. He has had plenty of chances and failed in most of them.

Priestland gets his 18th start at 10 tomorrow.

Hook's had 19 in his entire career.

[maestegmafia]

I'd give up Maes - their intent on their scapegoat (similar to Hook post-WC, Jones for the few seasons before the WC, Jon Davies even came in for a bit in the 2011 6N's, as did Biggar 2010-11)

Aye and now someones using Hooks lack of starts at 10 as a comparison to Priestlands alleged over generous opportunities.

Some people will always look for a scapegoat if we lose. It was a team performance, there were mistakes by both sides in the first half by both teams. Most of the Welsh mistakes were missed tackles in open play. something you can not do against a brilliant team like the All Blacks current mob.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Taking 3 points is not a sign of no confidence. Indeed it is a sign that you are confident you can get back in the target area and get another three points. Going for a try early in a match is not a sign of confidence in your abilities. In my opinion it is a sign that the opposition is going to hit back so we need to make a statement now.

In test rugby, you always go for the points available. If Wales knuckled down and got the basics right like they did in the last quarter, they wouldn't need to be playing catch up or require a big early lead. They'd be in the game.

I predicted a Wales win this weekend. I all want a beer off you Welsh posters if that comes true.

[samuraidragon]

Could you with a straight face say Wales had a chance by playing regular rugby?

"We can beat anyone on our day, its purely coincidence we just keep losing"


Lets not forget that NZ played their trick lineout too...were they chasing the game from the whistle? Running scared?

Could Wales beat the ABs without Carter at home? Unlikely, but not impossible. If we were at the top of our game and they were below par it could happen.

For example, Ireland almost beat them in NZ this summer - leading with just a few minutes on the clock.

Instead we made it easy for them through poor tactics and selection of players who are badly off form. The game was over by half-time.

"Every battle is won before it is fought" Sun Tzu.

[glamorganalun]

I miss Steven Jones.

I don't. Already forgotten the bottled dropkick in the World Cup, missed touch that gave the Irish the slam and numerous mediocre international games since 2008?

Agree 100%, he was at his best during 2005 GS he had Henson inside him to add some talent sadly lacking at 10. RP seems to follow his mentor but can't kick goals.

[OzT]

Well end of the week, time to head to the pub for the Friday's drinks.

Good luck to the Welsh tomorrow, but better luck for the Wallabies. Great game ahead to look forward to, may be all be happy as on Monday with the results... a good plucky Welsh performance but Wallabies to win by more than a score... I hope!!

have a good weekend all and catch ya after the match!

[samuraidragon]

I miss Steven Jones.

I don't. Already forgotten the bottled dropkick in the World Cup, missed touch that gave the Irish the slam and numerous mediocre international games since 2008?

Agree 100%, he was at his best during 2005 GS he had Henson inside him to add some talent sadly lacking at 10. RP seems to follow his mentor but can't kick goals.

I miss Shane Williams - who knew no other brand of rugby than the heads-up, bo**ox-out brand

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