You are the next Scotland coach - what do you do?

First topic message reminder :

Right, let's say that that the SRU have been watching 606V2 and have decided that one of us is good enough to be Scotland coach, based on our informed opinions and obvious tactical nous.

What would you do? WHo would you pick? What tactics would you use? What would you do to regain player confidence and performances?

Now I know there's probably going to be some wild calls here, like picking the Messiah straight away irrespective of Glasgow game time, and no doubt 21st Schitzoid will call for all Edinburgh players to have their contracts terminated straight away, but here are some home truths that will hopefully put some realism behind your choices.

As coach you need to deal with the following:

We are currently ranked 12th in the world - our lowest ever

We need to build towards a world cup in 2.5 years time - how many players do you keep? How many do you bring in?

There's a 6N starting in 8 weeks or so, and immediate results will be needed. Do you keep the same core of players or go for broke and bring in new guys?

Is Laidlaw a 9 or a 10?

Do you like prawn sandwiches or egg and cress when you are meeting with the blaziraty?


So over to you 606V2 - if you were Scotland coach, what would you do?

Mr 'GC" George Carlin should be the next Scotland coach

In the absence of skilled backs, Scotland need to play a dull ngeative gameplan based on England's 1991 style of percentage play when they used Rob Andrew as their kicker to place ball into the opposition 22.

oh yes i forgot to mention

replace ross ford with jockie at the okkie.

he can throw straight.

alive555 wrote:oh yes i forgot to mention

replace ross ford with jockie at the okkie.

he can throw straight.

How about replacing all the 7 backs with 7 forwards so that Scotland can use Wales famous 15 man lineout strategy to score tries V New Zealand.

gboycottnut wrote:In the absence of skilled backs, Scotland need to play a dull ngeative gameplan based on England's 1991 style of percentage play when they used Rob Andrew as their kicker to place ball into the opposition 22.

apart from the fact we do have skilled and fast backs. what we need is for them to be playing with confidence and verve. We have some of the best players I have seen for a generation.

TJ wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:In the absence of skilled backs, Scotland need to play a dull ngeative gameplan based on England's 1991 style of percentage play when they used Rob Andrew as their kicker to place ball into the opposition 22.

apart from the fact we do have skilled and fast backs. what we need is for them to be playing with confidence and verve. We have some of the best players I have seen for a generation.

Do you heck. The backs who play for Scotland now (like Stuart Hogg, Max Evans, Greig Laidlaw, Rory Lawson) simply just are nowhere near as good as the great ones who played for Scotland in 1970's (Andy Irvine, Jim Renwick, Ian McGeechan), 1980's (Peter One'Eyed Dods, Gavin Hastings, John Rutherford, Roy Laidlaw) and 1990's (Rowan Sheppard, Gregor Townsend, Craig Chalmers, Garry Armstrong).

gboycottnut wrote:

TJ wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:In the absence of skilled backs, Scotland need to play a dull ngeative gameplan based on England's 1991 style of percentage play when they used Rob Andrew as their kicker to place ball into the opposition 22.

apart from the fact we do have skilled and fast backs. what we need is for them to be playing with confidence and verve. We have some of the best players I have seen for a generation.

No you don't. The backs who play for Scotland now simply just are nowhere near as good as the great ones who played for Scotland in 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.

Have you actually seen Tim Visser play? Sean Maitland? Stuart Hogg? Matt Scott? Duncan Weir? Joe Ansbro?

Thought not.

gboycottnut wrote:so that Scotland can use Wales famous 15 man lineout strategy to score tries V New Zealand.

It's not a welsh tactic. Apparentl Ireland did it in 1999??????

Townsend? a mix of the great and ridiculous? Brendon laney? Scott Hastings? Rowan Shepard? Martin Leslie? We have had some utter rubbish get many Scotland caps. (anyone thingk of any more)

Yes there were some good players but none that were that much better than we have now and rarely if ever did we have as many decent backs available at once.

there is a real tendency to look back with rose tinted glasses but even the best of the teams only had one or two real stars like Jnhn Leslie, tony stainger, rutherford, armstrong etc

TJ wrote:Townsend? a mix of the great and ridiculous? Brendon laney? Scott Hastings? Rowan Shepard? Martin Leslie? We have had some utter rubbish get many Scotland caps. (anyone thingk of any more)

Yes there were some good players but none that were that much better than we have now and rarely if ever did we have as many decent backs available at once.

there is a real tendency to look back with rose tinted glasses but even the best of the teams only had one or two real stars like Jnhn Leslie, tony stainger, rutherford, armstrong etc

What about that 1990 Grand Slam team then or for that matter the 1984 Grand Slam team? Of the players you mentioned, I thought that Brendon Laney was a good player for Scotland, as to were Scott Hastings and to an extent Rowan Sheppard despite his lack of ability and having the huge burden of taking over the number 15 shirt from the great Gavin Hastings after the 1995 World Cup.

TJ - sorry but at this moment I have to go glass half full

They are not yet proved at international level so to say they are a best for several generations is imo a little bit far fetched.

Some of them had a good 6 nations last year (we still lost every game) and they have dropped off a cliff this year.

Once game / season does not make a world class player and I do wonder if we actually believe they are the best for a generation, or we hope they are

Brendon Laney - an expensive waste of time slow, unfit, unskilled journeyman. Rowan Shepard? poor. Scott hastings - very average. Gavin Hastings was not that great either. rose tinted glasses make the past look good

None of these players would be able to get into the current scotland team except perhaps Gavin Hastings

Captain_Sensible wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

TJ wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:In the absence of skilled backs, Scotland need to play a dull ngeative gameplan based on England's 1991 style of percentage play when they used Rob Andrew as their kicker to place ball into the opposition 22.

apart from the fact we do have skilled and fast backs. what we need is for them to be playing with confidence and verve. We have some of the best players I have seen for a generation.

No you don't. The backs who play for Scotland now simply just are nowhere near as good as the great ones who played for Scotland in 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.

Have you actually seen Tim Visser play? Sean Maitland? Stuart Hogg? Matt Scott? Duncan Weir? Joe Ansbro?

Thought not.

I saw Tim Visser play against NZ. Yes he may be a good try scorer, but there is more to rugby than just being there and poaching tries. Apparently he doesn't like tackling or isn't that good a tackler, and as for the others well I haven't seen them play but I can't see them being any better than the backs who played for Scotland in the 1980's and 1990's.

I have to say that the backs actually should be performing a lot better

here we can score them for general ability

Visser Attack 9 Defence 5 Handling 8 Consistency 8
Hogg Attack 8 Defence 6 Handling 6 Consistency 6
Tonks Attack 7 Defence 8 Handling 7 Consistency 7
Scott Attack 7 Defence 7 Handling 6 Consistency 7
NDL Attack 6 Defence 8 Handling 6 Consistency 6
Maitland Attack 9 Defence ? Handling ? Consistency ?
Laidlaw Attack 7 Defence 5 Handling 8 Consistency 8
Ansbro Attack 8 Defence 7 Handling 7 Consistency 7
Max Evans Attack 7 Defence 5 Handling 6 Consistency 5
Sean LM Attack 7 Defence 7 Handling 6 Consistency 6

very subjective i know but anyway each player needs to improve by 2 points to make any real headway

Captain_Sensible wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

TJ wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:In the absence of skilled backs, Scotland need to play a dull ngeative gameplan based on England's 1991 style of percentage play when they used Rob Andrew as their kicker to place ball into the opposition 22.

apart from the fact we do have skilled and fast backs. what we need is for them to be playing with confidence and verve. We have some of the best players I have seen for a generation.

No you don't. The backs who play for Scotland now simply just are nowhere near as good as the great ones who played for Scotland in 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.

Have you actually seen Tim Visser play? Sean Maitland? Stuart Hogg? Matt Scott? Duncan Weir? Joe Ansbro?

Thought not.

Yes and none of them have proved themselves as yet to be the real deal at international level - one season does not make world class player


We are becoming so obssessed with stating we have the best players coming through in our back line that we forget to mention they have failed to prove it on the largest stage so far.

Maybe they will with new tactics, coach etc - but until then we must stop stating they are great until they prove themselves

TJ wrote:Brendon Laney - an expensive waste of time slow, unfit, unskilled journeyman. Rowan Shepard? poor. Scott hastings - very average. Gavin Hastings was not that great either. rose tinted glasses make the past look good

None of these players would be able to get into the current scotland team except perhaps Gavin Hastings

You have to be kidding. Gavin Hastings is along with Andy Irvine the 2 best Full-backs that have played for Scotland. Don't forget that in his first ever International Match V France at Murrayfield in 1986 he scored all of Scotland's points through penalty kicks at goal.

Indeed not yet prove at international level - and last years six nations was a disaster because of Robinson useless selection. However those of us that have seen these guys play for the last few years know how good they are. Wier - not played by Robinson masterminded a demolition of the england saxons containing a lot of test players by a bunch =of young uncapped ( at that time) scots. Laidlaw masterminded the defeat of Toulouse.

I did not say the best for several generations - but the best for a generation - since the 1990 team maybe. I think better than the 1999 team

gboycottnut wrote:

TJ wrote:Brendon Laney - an expensive waste of time slow, unfit, unskilled journeyman. Rowan Shepard? poor. Scott hastings - very average. Gavin Hastings was not that great either. rose tinted glasses make the past look good

None of these players would be able to get into the current scotland team except perhaps Gavin Hastings

You have to be kidding. Gavin Hastings is along with Andy Irvine the 2 best Full-backs that have played for Scotland. Don't forget that in his first ever International Match V France at Murrayfield in 1986 he scored all of Scotland's points through penalty kicks at goal.

Yes - a good kicker but rather a lumbering runner - altho under geech did develop some new twists to tactics.

A decent player but not a great like Irvine

'gboycottnut wrote:
No you don't. The backs who play for Scotland now simply just are nowhere near as good as the great ones who played for Scotland in 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.'
What, like Kenny Logan? Seeing him play live was like watching a slow motion reply, and as for his goal kicking.....

Yes, but lets not get carried away

Did the team that beat the saxons not get stuffed in the next matches

How well is Laidlaws team doing in the HC this year - zero points scored

How well are they doing in the league - eeer, lets move on


We laugh at other nations when they propose the great coming after one good game and now we are doing so too

In these AI they looked clueless - some can be down to AR and the tactics, but they have been terrible this year

My point simply is that the great backs of the past came long in dribs and drabs diluted by a lot of average to dross players. Its always sunny in the the past.

MacKnocked-on wrote:'gboycottnut wrote:
No you don't. The backs who play for Scotland now simply just are nowhere near as good as the great ones who played for Scotland in 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.'
What, like Kenny Logan? Seeing him play live was like watching a slow motion reply, and as for his goal kicking.....

Wait a minute, Kenny Logan was seen of once as an attacking runner of the ball, so much so that he gained his first Scotland cap at full-back V Australia in 1992.

Risky - indeed but having seen how well these guys can play then we know the potential / skill is there. Unfortunately we have wasted two years under Robinson wgo turned it to Poopie.

I am convinced that a large part of the Edinburgh issue is Robinson has ruined Laidlaws confidence and made him play an unsuitable gameplan.

TJ - I am not wanting to rain on the parade, just want us not to fall into the trap other nations do

I so really hope they do step up, but club form is not an accurate indication of international form (See NDL)

Lets all hope they can get their groove on and we get the best out of them

TJ wrote:My point simply is that the great backs of the past came long in dribs and drabs diluted by a lot of average to dross players. Its always sunny in the the past.

Well at least there were less average to dross players in the Scotland back division during the golden days of the 1970's to 1990's compared to the Scotland team now where it seems there is almost an endless factory supply of average to dross players making up the whole of the entire Scotland back division.

tigertattie wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:so that Scotland can use Wales famous 15 man lineout strategy to score tries V New Zealand.

It's not a welsh tactic. Apparentl Ireland did it in 1999??????

Regardless of whether Ireland did it or not in 1999, it seems it is the simplest and best tactic to use in order to beat the likes of New Zealand.

gboycottnut wrote:

TJ wrote:My point simply is that the great backs of the past came long in dribs and drabs diluted by a lot of average to dross players. Its always sunny in the the past.

Well at least there were less average to dross players in the Scotland back division during the golden days of the 1970's to 1990's compared to the Scotland team now where it seems there is almost an endless factory supply of average to dross players making up the whole of the entire Scotland back division.

Have you actually seen them play apart from after Robinson turned them to Poopie?

How about this as a tactic as the Scotland coach. Keep all the players locked inside the changing room so that the match cannot start and has to be abandoned with a 0-0 all scoreline!

Apparently Rossco just missed out on the player of the year shortlist, probably not helped by missing the last two and a half games.

Thanks for kind comments above but I think in retrospect I was paraphasing (at least in part) the thoughts of a lot of posters here, all of which have been incisive and excellent.

I think what is gratifying about the tenet of people's thoughts here is that there is genuine and consistent recognition of an overall coaching problem. A friend of mine asked whether all this talk of new coaches was broadly irrelevant as the problem was actually the poor quality of players themselves in comparison to other nations. My view now as it was then is that the professional game has standardised approaches to physical conditioning so much that the only variables left are (a) the innate levels of skill and judgement that players have for their own game and (b) the game plan that players are coached to and the coach's development of set piece and core skills.

I think that divergences in (b) are the things that are far more likely to win matches. When you think about the truly awful, gut wrenching losses in recent years - sadly there are plenty to choose from - the worse in my mind being the awful mistakes and last second capitulation in Wales in the 6N 2010 and losing to England in the last quarter of the RWC 2011 pool match - these were lost because of a lack of belief and bad individual choices - both of which should have been trained out of the players and mistakes of this kind have just happened too often in too many games over a number of years for it to be shrugged off as just the team being 'unlucky'.

In a nutshell, most people were p!ssed about AR's selections because he didn't give Scotland its best chance to win the match given the strengths of the players available. I honestly believe that proper attack coaching, renwed Mercer defence and an overall careful checking and structured implementation of new player combinations (Messiah not playing until the stump from his umbilical cord has dropped off) will see a completely revitalised team.

Coaches have been working up their own systems of training for years and years and specialist backs coaches like Ashton, Joseph and Meehan have successfully helped dozens of players with problems just like ours. We have the chance to help ourselves if the blazered buggers in McBumfertie Manor will only pay for them and ignore everything other than the candidates resumes.

Makes me yog to think of Johnson or Chalmers being handed something as important as the head coach's job in this era.

I would completely drop John Barclay who looks lethargic and may need to lose some bulk to speed up a bit, I'd adopt a policy that unless the player is very very good (i.e Mike Blair), there are no other real options or available for the next world cup they'll be dropped. That means the likes of De Luca would be dropped, and unfortunately probably Sean Lamont amongst a few others and replace them with speedy, hungry players like Fusaro. I'd bring Bennett, Farndale and any other very talented youngsters into the squad but not start them until they are ready and phase them in and I'd bring in a core of Glasgow players who are consistent and win regularly. I'd drop a few Edinburgh players and replace them with Glasgow players until Edinburgh start playing consistently, i.e Dunbar for Scott. An injection of youth would hopefully get the likes of Ford and Blair playing again. I'd pick Gray as captain because of his profile and he's young so would grow into the role. If I was the coach for the start of the Six nations I'd pick:

1. Grant
2. Ford (MacArthur if Ford still hasn't regained his form)
3. Murray
4. Gilchrist
5. Gray
6. Brown
7. Fusaro
8. Denton
9. Blair
10. Weir
11. Maitland
12. Dunbar (Scott if Ansbro isn't fit and Bennett isn't ready)
13. Ansbro / Bennett (if he's played well, regularly for Glasgow)
14. Visser
15. Hogg

16. Welsh
17. MacArthur
18. Low
19. Hamilton
20. Rennie
21. Laidlaw
22. Scott
23. Tonks

Evening gents, some fantastic ideas and contributions above (that doesn't include you, Mr GBoycottNutt - stick to cricket, son, sounds more of your game ).

It's difficult to know where to start, partly cos I feel I'll simply end up repeating much of what's already been said in far better ways than I could say it.

Anyhew, I'd give fES's left testicle for a chance to coach Scotland. Whoever gets the job, in fact the entire coaching team, has to be able to communicate the depth of the honour to the players - let's start from there. There are three things that I want the new coaching team to bring to the playing squad - enjoyment, self-confidence and enthusiam. They're inter-related in a way, but there are reasons why I single out these three aspects:
(i) A group of happy players, having fun, will go that extra mile for you in training, make that extra tackle, cut that extra line, all when they are utterly exhausted;
(ii) So much of the modern game is about the "top two inches" (or whatever the saying is), and I want a group of players that is instilled with self-belief, players that will back themselves and (MOST importantly) each other - when the shoite hits the fan, knowing that you can rely upon those around you is an immense feeling; the lads must have the confidence to play what they find in front of them, within the bounds of a very broad gameplan, whilst also being prepared to chuck that out the window when occasion demads;
(iii) I want the wider squad that we select to take us thru to 2015 to be bulging with enthusiasm, a group that understands the pride in the navy blue jersey, a bunch of players that go back to their clubs thinking they can't wait till the next international squad get together.

I also want the players to be the fittest international squad that there is, players that can still operate mentally at as a high a level as possible when utterly shattered for bone-shattering physical contact. Then we can play the game at a pace that suits us, one that will I hope be difficult for others to keep up with. There are loads of proven techniques being used in other sports that can be brought to bear to enhance this element - we have much to do.

I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with those that are asking for Edinburgh style back play and Glasgow style forward play and defence. For one, I don't think that the relative successes of those two sides last year can be boiled down to just those simple areas, and for two, those gameplans/tactics were relevant for that group of players, whereas they are mixed up for Scotland, with a good handful of players from outside Scotland thrown in too.

My tactics will be dictated solely by the players that I have available. I want us to play the game at pace, attacking everything that we do (the fitness will help here and ensure that we can keep that going for longer). I don't see our pack as being quite the dominant force that others do, but I would expect us to be solid at our own set-piece, capable of competing on oppo ball from time to time; but we're going to be mobile, and I'll permit maybe one player (tighthead) to not quite fit the mould, but the rest are going to feicin run their socks off. We're going to bring back Telfer-esque rucking, fast and furious, controlled and aggressive chaos.

In the backs, our strengths in attack are out wide, in the back three. We've got to play a game plan that makes the most of that, either playing slightly deeper so that they have more magic to weave their stuff, bringing them in nearer the action, or playing a narrower game until we have the space and mis-matches out wide which these guys can exploit.

On to my team - I honestly believe that we have plenty of options in many positions - they're not world class, many of them, but most are international class, and as following Exeter has taught me, get a group of players having fun, playing for each other and buying into the game plan, we will get more than the sum of the parts.

Loosehead - Grant and Welsh, two excellent options; Grant has really established himself, Welsh needs to do the same now;
Hooker - Ford and MacArthur, again two strong options; both have the same lineout frailties, but they are mobile, good carriers, and with confidence, the right leadership and smart lineout calls (why do we always go for a long throw just after a squint one?!), these guys can do a job;
Tighthead - Murray and Low, two good options; I'm going to ask them to secure the scrummage, nothing more, just guarantee us our own ball;
Locks - Gray and Gilchrist, with Campbell and young Gray as back-ups, young, dynamic, powerful with ball in hand, need a bit of work in the tight, and an old head to coach them in the 'dirty' stuff;
Blindside - Brown and Harley, the former with the captaincy lifted, the latter with his horizons broadened; two good choppers, that can become key components to class backrows;
Openside - Rennie, Barclay, and let's see if Fusaro can hack it; I, like others, believe that a change of scenery wouldn't do John Barclay any harm - if Leicester are losing Salvi, then Barclay is your man;
No.8s - Denton and Beattie, two ball-carrying lads that will ensure that we're getting across the gainline with forward momentum.

That can be a highly mobile pack, strong at the breakdown, quick in support, capable of earning turnovers, giving go-forward ball to the backline, and not afraid of their defensive duties.

Fullback - Hogg and Brown, gifted ball players the pair of them, with plenty of pace and guile; solid under the high ball, and capable of running the ball back with interest and not getting isolated;
Wings - MacVisser and Maitland, with Seymour and Farndale in the wings (literally!), boys that play cos they love scoring tries, guys that the opposition will be fearful of, with pace galore (defence to be worked on for a couple of them );
Centres - Scott, Dunbar, Bennett (the Messiah), and Ansbro, bright lads, most will never be world class, but can do everything that is needed of them to maximise what is around them; no crash-ball merchants, we simply don't have any, so we won't be (mis-)using them as such; but we're going to wring every ounce of creativity out of these guys;
Flyhalf* - Weir and Heathcote, two solid stand-offs, with good boots on them, that will always ensure that we play the game in the right areas of the pitch, they're big enough to be a threat in their own rights to keep oppo defence honest, they're both capable of playing flat and deeper as the situation demands it, both capable of controlling the tempo of a game so that it suits us, but they must be given their heads to do as they see fit;
Scrumhalf - Laidlaw, Cusiter and Kennedy, a general, an old warrior, and a young buck, the perfect combination to see us thru the next 4 years (grateful thanks to messrs Blair and Lawson for years of service); all capable of quick service, great support players, smart men that will provide the leadership that Scotland has been so badly lacking during the 6Ns, the summer tour and the AIs.

Not exactly a masterplan, but there it is. We're unlikely to win the next world cup or even the one after that, but we're a damned sight better than 12th in the world - nothing for the new coaching team to lose in my book, and a talented group of individuals that could be great if they're given the right gameplan and buy into it.

* I'm still intrigues to see whether Alex Blair makes it back to the top flight - the greatest natural 10 of his generation that I have seen; Harry Leonard might step up, but I'm yet to be convinced at this stage

:applause:

One of my first priorities would be to find a beast of a ball carrying back-rower. Denton uses finesse as much as power but look at the top nations' back-rows and they normally have a tank who can be sure of getting over the gain line.
Once we can be sure of go-forward ball, the coach can then turn his attention to what to do after that.
Oh,yes. And he might want to get the players to practice standing behind the try line, waiting for a conversion to be taken but looking very disappointed for the benefit of the cameras - I think we are going to see a lot of that this 6N and we need to get our routines perfected.

Got any suggestions injured??

Have to say Denton is yer man from what you've described - also not sure what finesse you're talking about with Denton!

In all honesty I take John Beattie Sr's viewpoint on this one.

They all play at club. Glasgow can attack, Edinburgh can attack, all of them can play as a team.

Passing drills, tackling drills, pick out leaders in the backs and forwards to co-ordinate defence, not over-committing to rucks (2/3 over) and getting quick ball.

Let the players play the rugby they can do at club level and we can win international games, keep the coaching to a minimum just make sure they can function as a unit.

NeilyBroon wrote:In all honesty I take John Beattie Sr's viewpoint on this one.

They all play at club. Glasgow can attack, Edinburgh can attack, all of them can play as a team.

Passing drills, tackling drills, pick out leaders in the backs and forwards to co-ordinate defence, not over-committing to rucks (2/3 over) and getting quick ball.

Let the players play the rugby they can do at club level and we can win international games, keep the coaching to a minimum just make sure they can function as a unit.

Exactly what I was trying to say, Neily, but far more succinctly put - bravo, sir

I know what you mean RDW but let's just say that Denton ain't Jerry Collins or any of the Oirish back-rowers like Heaslip. Denton will try to go round tacklers some times.
I can't honestly think of a beast of a No 8 although I played against Craig Smith (later capped at prop) when he was number 8 for Berwick. I was as much of an irritant to him as a small speed bump to a Range Rover when I stepped off the side of one scrum to try to stop him after he picked up from No 8 and he literally ran over me. Your dad probably witnessed it.
If I was to get all misty-eyed, I might suggest an experiment like the one with Nathan Hines when we converted a really good ball playing lock, admittedly to blind-side not No 8.
What about a time machine and get Simon Taylor from 10 years (and 3 stones) ago?
On the wider point, and depite what I have just been arguing, I would try to bring back a much faster game with quick tap-and-go's from free-kicks etc. Our backs don't have the skill or are not given the space to beat a properly formed backline so we have to get the ball out before the defending team are ready.

IYA, you'll be executed in the public market for fES for your playing-players-out-of-position suggestion!! Don't worry, I'll be with you for suggesting the Messiah which falls foul of the Musnt-Play-A-Player-until-they-have-9000-club-caps rule

The other point that I forgot to make in the diatribe above is the need to have patience - the ABs will go thru numerous phases to get the maatch ups that they want; we seem to go thru 2 or 3 and then get over-excited and spill the beans; ball retention is therefore key

Good point ASBO (the last one - the rest were rubbish ). It is almost as if our backs (and stand off in particular) don't trust the forwards to continue to recycle the ball and so feel compelled to try something from 3rd phase.
Unfortunately, I don't think that is something that can be coached - it will only come once the players trust each other

It's interesting to see everybody's simplified squad thoughts for the next two or three seasons, focusing on a fairly narrow pool of players to help them develop under pressure. I would still imagine that Lineen has a couple of interesting recruits in the pipeline and I would also be interested in seeing if the likes of James Fleming could transfer his 7s form to 15s. Could be an interesting contrast in style to Visser etc.

Although there is a great deal of potential in the current squad and some of the fringe players there is a huge amount of work to be done to produce a winning team.
Most posteres mention our potential in the back three: Visser, Maitland, Hogg with Seymour and Tonks knocking on the door as well.
However as has been the case,since 19999 when we had Townsend, Leslie and Tait in our midfield we have not had three players in those positions that can scare the shoit out of decent opposition. Until we produce convinving players in all three of these postitions bolted on to a tough and dynamic pack we can forget about any significant rise up the rankings.

Duncan Weir needs to get some game time under his belt to challenge greg Laidlaw for 10 and Dunbar needs to step up his performances for glasgow to put himself in the frame for 12 or 13.
Long term i think a midfield of Weir, Dunbar and the Messiah (Bennett) could actually be highly effective but that wont happen this season or even next for Scotland. Unless Toonie gets his finger out and unleashes that midfield (fitness allowing ) for Warriors this season it may never get a chance to happen.

Given that toonie must be a contender for the Scotland job it will be interesting to see how bold he will be with his selections over the coming months.

Drop de Luca.

Also, I would be keen to see our three young flying eff'ers (Fife, Farndale and Fleming) get the hell out of the Scots clubs in order to start getting more game time. Kills me that they've been tucked away when they should have been on the pitch, some pitch, any pitch in the top flights.

All of this talk of 1990 reminds me that Tony Stainger was 21 when he scored that Grand Slam winning try. He was applauded at the time for making the squad so young. Why are we suddenly so nervous about playing guys that are young?

I am willing to speculate to accumulate with our younger players - particularly I couldn't give a about the next 6 Nations if the spine of our best team starts to form.

This piece by Tom English in the Hootsmon seems particularly appropriate to this thread:

Silence on Robinson speaks volumes

By TOM ENGLISH
Published on Thursday 29 November 2012 00:00

ADMITTEDLY, it was a tweet and then a retweet between two players who had no part in the fiasco at Pittodrie last Saturday evening but it was instructive nonetheless, adding weight to the view that, within the wider Scotland rugby squad, there is a softness and an excuse-making culture that needs to be dismantled.

In the wake of the 21-15 loss to Tonga, Jim Hamilton, off duty for the day but one of the real hard cases in the set-up, tweeted about his frustration at seeing his mates fall in a heap in Aberdeen, not that he put it in such a stark way. “Absolutely gutted to see the Scotland boys lose today,” he wrote. “We deserve so much more than what results show.” This plaintive cry was then retweeted by fellow Scottish international forward, Ryan Grant, another player who obviously felt that Scotland deserved so much more.

Quite how they came to this conclusion is not immediately obvious. It can’t, surely, have come from anything they saw on the pitch, for their mates performed wretchedly and warranted nothing but defeat.

So how did they deserve so much more? Maybe that simple tweet spoke to a wider culture within the dressing room, an attitude of sulking self-pity and lack of honesty in facing up to the weaknesses in their make-up, weaknesses that a Tongan side stripped of all bar four or five of the starting line-up that beat the French at the last World Cup ruthlessly exposed. Scotland had all the territory and all the possession to pull a victory out of the jaws of defeat last Saturday but they didn’t have the mental capacity. They didn’t have it in close games in last season’s Six Nations either. They didn’t have it against Argentina and England during the World Cup. They didn’t have it against Wales in an earlier Six Nations game when they were a mile ahead with minutes to go and still lost.

What they “deserve” has got nothing to do with it.

It’s been interesting observing these players on Twitter since Andy Robinson called a halt to his reign and resigned.

Robinson had to go but the manner of his leaving reinforced the impression that, whatever his failings as a head coach at this level, he is a good and honourable guy. Clearly he felt he was no longer the right man for the job but he could have hung on in there and forced the SRU to sack him and then pay him off, a tactic we have seen from his counterpart in football, Craig Levein. Rather than drag things out, however, Robinson’s departure was swift and it was done with a lot of class. In dynamiting his regime, he showed the kind of decisive decision-making under pressure that he’s spent three-and-a-half years trying to teach his players – to little avail.

The Twitter reaction has been a bit of a non-reaction. If you look at their home pages, Scotland players tweet about everything and anything, from the television programme Homeland to Joey Barton’s new French accent to mumbo jumbo and in-jokes that nobody could hope to understand. The majority of the players who failed their coach are on Twitter and tweet either prolifically or pretty regularly and yet only a small few of them afforded their former coach a mention when he left. Not a word from most of them. They might counter by arguing that they said their farewells in private but they could have done with making it public, as Kelly Brown and Rory Lawson did. Al Kellock spoke powerfully in the aftermath of the game on Saturday about why it was the players’ fault and not Robinson’s but, mostly, there has been silence from the 
dressing room.

On his Twitter feed, Max Evans said he would use the pain of defeat in Aberdeen and take it into next year’s Six Nations. Evans is assuming he’s going to get there – and therein, perhaps, lies part of the problem. In the past, Scotland achieved greatness not on the back of a plethora of men who had the skills of world class players but because of men who had the mentality of world class players, men who took nothing for granted, whose rage for victory was immense, whose dedication to the cause was frightening, players who would allow Jim Telfer to run them into the ground and abuse them verbally just so they could wear the jersey. ­Players who could beat more talented teams through the force of their will.

Telfer’s mantra was that however hard the opposition worked, his players would work harder. However much they wanted victory, his team wanted it more. Robinson was that type of player himself. Reared in the hardest of rugby clubs at Bath of the 1980s, Robinson was a winner, surrounded by winners. He tried to instil a mental toughness into the Scotland camp but he couldn’t do it and the ultimate illustration of 
his failure was that grotesque performance in Aberdeen.

Afterwards, seemingly, he told the players some home truths and maybe that is why not many of them felt inclined to publicly voice their sorrow at seeing him depart. Maybe they were in some kind of strop. Instead, they tweeted nonsense. Or didn’t tweet at all.

Robinson’s frustration was easy to see and easy to understand. These Scottish players are decent. There is talent in this team, no question. You don’t beat South Africa and Australia and Argentina in Argentina (twice) if you don’t have something. You don’t go to Dublin and beat a good Irish side if you’re as useless as the performance in Aberdeen would lead you to believe. They’re not Six Nations contenders but they are better than wooden-spoonists, better than two wins in 15 Six Nations games going back three years. Or they should be, if they weren’t such a mental soft touch so often.

Robinson has gone and his captain, Brown, was right when saying last week that the players need to take a long and hard look at themselves in the mirror before the start of the Six Nations. Somebody else will be in charge by then, either permanently or an interim basis. And so the job of toughening these guys up mentally falls to a new man. It’s a Herculean task but it’s do-able, if they get the right bloke. History – recent history, at that – tells us that underperforming teams can be turned around just when you think there is no hope, so long as the coach is right and the set-up is good and the laziness and the moping is run out of the place.

The example is Wales and the awful state they were in before Warren Gatland came in and sorted them out. Gatland is tough and clever and the pity is that he is not available. Consider the plight of Wales before he fetched-up with his hard-nosed Kiwi wisdom in time for the 2008 Six Nations, a season that saw Wales win the Grand Slam. Wales had been knocked out of the World Cup by Fiji the previous autumn. They’d lost four of five in the Six Nations, including losses to Scotland and Italy. The previous season, they’d finished fifth in the Six Nations. They were demoralised. There was talk of in-fighting. Nobody had any hope at all. Then a guy who knew what he was doing came on to the scene, rid the dressing room of its blame culture and set them on their way. They have since won another Grand Slam under Gatland.

There are not too many Gatlands, it’s true. But let’s put a limit on the amount of navel-gazing we’re doing. Yes, there is legitimate debate about the way rugby is coached in Scotland and the absence of pressure games at a younger age and how the loss of a third professional team is damaging the big picture and many other things. All valid and all worthwhile talking points. But there remains, in this space at any rate, a conviction that this Scottish team is capable of an awful lot more if the appointment of the new coach is the right one.

It’s not just the technical that needs addressing. It’s the mental. The changing of a culture, so that Scotland never again has to see a player trotting out some kind of hard luck story after a loss to Tonga. Telfer’s time has gone, but the bloody-minded ethos he created is timeless. And we should think about that.

Good article - no doubt it will get him banned from sru press conferences! How dare he criticise our players!

On one hand I wouldn't read too much into the lack of public Twitter chat, but then again from what I saw only Hamilton and Brown said anything about him stepping down....?

Good thread, will give it a better look later when i have time.

But I'll answer one questiion... I would skip on the sandwiches and have a dozen oysters

Great article from Mr English (sic). Mental toughness is majorly lacking and Fobinson showed himself incapable of imbuing that into the players - if we're looking for a Telfer-esque voice of unreason, then we should defo be looking to get Chick Chalmers involved in the set-up somewhere (not as High Heid-yin, he doesn't have the experience) - the man is cut from the same Borders cloth as Telfer and his passion for winning, and doing whatever it takes to win, is there for all to see

aye to add to that list I think the first thing I'd do is drop Evans and say if he's serious about playing for Scotland he should go and improve his game, we've got other options who are definitely better than him, even on the bench.

If that happened perhaps he'd do a Henson and actually improve his game.

George Carlin wrote:Also, I would be keen to see our three young flying eff'ers (Fife, Farndale and Fleming) get the hell out of the Scots clubs in order to start getting more game time. Kills me that they've been tucked away when they should have been on the pitch, some pitch, any pitch in the top flights.

All of this talk of 1990 reminds me that Tony Stainger was 21 when he scored that Grand Slam winning try. He was applauded at the time for making the squad so young. Why are we suddenly so nervous about playing guys that are young?

I am willing to speculate to accumulate with our younger players - particularly I couldn't give a about the next 6 Nations if the spine of our best team starts to form.

Who is nervous about playing guys that are young? I'm certainly not. I couldn't give a stuff how old a player is, if they are good enough they are old enough. Where I may disagree is that I wouldn't pick players for Scotland who have not demonstrated that they are good enough in a club jersey. I don't need to see much either. I was fully behind Hogg starting at 15 in the 6 Nations, with only 6 months of professional rugby behind him, but that's just about as close to green as I'd go. On Fife I totally agree, he should get a run at 13 or wing for Edinburgh. Similarly Farndale - no idea why Penn or Paris were signed. It's the clubs that need to be better at picking young players.

I actually think Robinson was pretty good about giving young players a chance. Slightly slower in some cases than I'd personally have liked (e.g. Hogg should have started in the 6 Nations) but Low, Grant, Gilchrist, Denton, Pyrgos, Jackson, Scott, Jones and Hogg have all been given opportunities under Robinson. You could argue that Harley could have been used more as could Duncan Weir, but not picking young players was not Robinson's biggest problem.

Not sure what "spine of the team" means. Is the "spine of the team" not already formed? Any arguments with Murray, Ford, Grant and Gray in the front five? Those were Robinson's first choice. Any arguments with Brown, Rennie and Denton in the back row? Again, Robinson's first choice. That's 7 out of 8, with the only disputes coming over Jim Hamilton as far as I can tell.

Similarly the backs. Cusiter at 9. Any arguments? Who has a firm view on 10?? Could be one of any number, and Robinson has given both Laidlaw and Jackson a fair crack at it, which makes sense when you consider Edinburgh and Glasgow. Matt Scott at 12. Any arguments? Visser and Hogg at wing and fullback. Again, any arguments? Assume Maitland is going to (and would have) taken the other wing.

Robinson in my view has already correctly identified the spine of the Scotland team, with question marks at lock, stand-off and outside centre, plus a justifiable question mark over the long-term option at 9.

Getting the team to play well as a unit, and deploying the correct game plan. There's the issue. Despite making a complete hash of selection for years, I actually think Robinson towards the end had arrived in just about the right place in terms of personnel.