How can England Improve?

So apart from Sausage, pretty much everyone thought England would lose and instead they performed very well. Very very very well.

IF we were the all blacks though we would not simply say - why that was good, no need for improvement. As such we should analyse where we can improve.

Before doing so I should say that I was VERY impressed with pretty much everyone in the side and what follows is nit picking. Nit picking however is probably the key to getting consistent. This was one game, we need to perform well in EVERY game. So, how can we improve. I'll start with a couple of suggestions:

1. Kicking - Our kicking, though generally chased well with a line of players still tended to be too long, giving the opposition time to assess their position and counter attack. Slightly shorter kicks to create pressure on the receiver would be a big improvement.

2. Tackling - In general our tackling was good, but sometimes there is a tendency to go a bit high and get brushed off (such as with the first NZ try).

3. Silly penalties - Corbisiero (I think), Morgan (I think) and Vunipola all gave away silly penalties that gave the all blacks possession and a chance to attack/score points. Don't do this!

Again - I actually thought we did very very very well and I am happy, but what can we improve on? What would you single out as the problems now we have had a chance to calm down a little

Experience.

Biltong wrote:Experience.

very good - witty but also true! There must be things beyond this though?

It is incredibly important to look to building and improving constantly, also hoping that injuries don't let you down.

A great performance by England on the weekend has to be backed up by regular consistent games played at the same level of intensity and belief to become a team that is as good as the top three in the game.

Something as a Welsh fan I know all too well.

Decision making was obviously a talking point for England over the AIs.

Very impressive win for England but over the last few years England have had big victories such as the one v France or some good wins v Australia only to follow up with some poor results so obviously consistency is a concern.

However, the England team has changed so much over the last few years its no surprise there has been no consistency. I would expect Lancaster to have a good idea who his best 22 is now and England will be a quite settled side by the time the 6n rolls around.

England will need to win the 6 nations to take this team forward. Forget about the slam though as France and Ireland will also be chomping at the bit having also thrashed one at least RC team too in this AIs series. Wales are bound to be up there too.

England will also be playing Ireland in Landsdowne which hasnt been their happiest hunting ground of late.

ermm- i backed england mate- i am the messiah!

we need to utilse strong players that can gain.. we need to work on our passing and handling- we have proved we can do it.. so no excuses going forward!

its all about quick ball.- i agree shorter kicks - however less kicks as well- dont give up easy possesion! we can control games and keep possesion!

Ashton needs to be sent back to tackling school.
He had a vague slap at the back of Reed ? during the 2nd AB try, I could not believe how pathetic his attempted 'tackle' was.

Mystiroakey - which strong players do you mean? Would you be changing the side?

I agree with GunsGerms that the England side has been in flux for years. No more than two changes for the next game for me (barring injuries), possibly less than 2!

Biltong wrote:Experience.

Haven't been on over the weekend, but nice to have you back Biltong

gregortree wrote:Ashton needs to be sent back to tackling school.
He had a vague slap at the back of Reed ? during the 2nd AB try, I could not believe how pathetic his attempted 'tackle' was.

Yeah, he has been gash in defence. Is his place in doubt do you think? He was probably the worst performing of the starting XV.

screamingaddabs wrote:

Biltong wrote:Experience.

very good - witty but also true! There must be things beyond this though?

I think England is close to the team Lancaster wants to take forward.

Many of the English problems are similar to South Africa's, in fact I would think if Meyer and Lancaster sat down in the study they would be able to very much consider the same conundrums.

They have the pysicality in the forwards, they have the ability in line outs, both teams need perhaps a little more speed in the backrow.

Both teams can work on their kicking, although we still don't have a halfback with quick enough service.

Backlines, your in my view is actually closer to clicking, we need some personnel changes.

But it is all about playing the same intensity for 80 minutes, which we haven't managed this year, and your forwards did this weekend. It is about creating momentum at the ruck, nit just clearing the ruck.

It is about having patience before going wide and knowing when to do it.

I don't like Botha, I like farrell and Brown.

I think Barrit and Tuilagi had their best game this season as a oairing, but perhaps it is due to the forwards providing better ruck ball.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Biltong wrote:Experience.

Haven't been on over the weekend, but nice to have you back Biltong

Missed tackles, missed receives, fumbles, Ashton has gone down in my estimation. Probably the worst England player of the series ?
Someone please start a 'Worst Player' thread eh ?

Well i feel brown has serious core strength! he gains.. so players that dont give up the ball, players that allow us to recylce- players that give us a higher average phase per possesion.

i hate indecisiveness- the team needs to calm down in possesion as we did v NZ- we played just as well physically v SA - however we turned into headless chickens when we saw gaps!- patience is the key for me and you can only do that if you can retain possesion

Put Vunipola on a treadmill, same with Morgan to a lesser extent.

I'm sure he's still match fit but he's carrying at least a stone of excess baggage by the looks of it. He would get stronger and fitter.

Also think Lawes & Marler could do with a little more bulk... lawes looks more like a basketball player and think if he had more game time he would have been thrown around a little.

GunsGerms wrote:Decision making was obviously a talking point for England over the AIs.

Very impressive win for England but over the last few years England have had big victories such as the one v France or some good wins v Australia only to follow up with some poor results so obviously consistency is a concern.

However, the England team has changed so much over the last few years its no surprise there has been no consistency. I would expect Lancaster to have a good idea who his best 22 is now and England will be a quite settled side by the time the 6n rolls around.

England will need to win the 6 nations to take this team forward. Forget about the slam though as France and Ireland will also be chomping at the bit having also thrashed one at least RC team too in this AIs series. Wales are bound to be up there too.

England will also be playing Ireland in Landsdowne which hasnt been their happiest hunting ground of late.

Consistency is an issue for all below the All Blacks, their performance last Saturday was a shock to us all and a credit to England.

But the top ten in the rankings behind the kiwis are a hell of a lot closer than they have been since the rankings started. At the moment almost all of those teams have either had very narrow victories or losses to teams ranked five or six places lower than them over the past two years.

Consistent performances at the best of the teams ability is the way to raise your head out of the mix and attain a position at the top of the table.

The question was how can England improve but in all fairness it is going to be tough to improve on hammering the ABs.

well maybe all we needed was belief!

we have been given it!

I am not gonna get ahead of myself.. but thats key in this game

I agree about the kicking - there were a few really aimless ones, and on a different day a team like the All Blacks would have made us pay. I still see this as a weakness of Farrell's, to be honest - he goes to the boot as 'plan A', and when the carrying game is making inroads as it was on Saturday you've got to question some of that decision-making.

That said, he is improving and showed some decent distribution. He's still a young lad after all, and he's clearly got the one thing that can't be bought: big game temprament.

More broadly, I think Lancaster's been brilliant at bringing young, form players in at the right time. To progress, though, I'd love to see an injury free 6N where we can really get a sense of who Lancaster feels his best XV are - lots of 'good' problems if everyone's fit, so we will see the type of game that Lancaster is aiming at. E.g Flood, Farrell and now Burns, all very real options at 10 and all very different players. Similarly across the 3 quarters....will he look to use JJ to achieve a better balance? What the hell is he going to do if Foden comes back and shows some form?!

....all excellent problems to have, and will test Lancaster's coaching in a different way

GunsGerms wrote:The question was how can England improve but in all fairness it is going to be tough to improve on hammering the ABs.

Yes, consistent performances of that level would see an improvement. If England fail to do that in the six nations, they will have regressed.

maestegmafia wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Decision making was obviously a talking point for England over the AIs.

Very impressive win for England but over the last few years England have had big victories such as the one v France or some good wins v Australia only to follow up with some poor results so obviously consistency is a concern.

However, the England team has changed so much over the last few years its no surprise there has been no consistency. I would expect Lancaster to have a good idea who his best 22 is now and England will be a quite settled side by the time the 6n rolls around.

England will need to win the 6 nations to take this team forward. Forget about the slam though as France and Ireland will also be chomping at the bit having also thrashed one at least RC team too in this AIs series. Wales are bound to be up there too.

England will also be playing Ireland in Landsdowne which hasnt been their happiest hunting ground of late.

Consistency is an issue for all below the All Blacks, their performance last Saturday was a shock to us all and a credit to England.

But the top ten in the rankings behind the kiwis are a hell of a lot closer than they have been since the rankings started. At the moment almost all of those teams have either had very narrow victories or losses to teams ranked five or six places lower than them over the past two years.

Consistent performances at the best of the teams ability is the way to raise your head out of the mix and attain a position at the top of the table.

Should we not be aiming to be ahead of the all blacks?

I agree consistency is key - One thing we will need to help achieve that is a game plan in the backs for when Tuilagi is injured or off form (it will happen!).

thats the problem we have maest- even though england only got 2 wins- the pressure is on. however better to somehow be in this position than not!!

I agree with teaching Ashton to tackle. 2 of his attempts were so pathetic even an Under 14s player would have nailed it.

You don't bring down an All Black by flailing your arms at shoulder height as they will hand you off and probably score. Or by trying to push them over with a ridiculous effort.

Oh, and keep your eyes on the ball. That way you won't drop it...

screamingaddabs wrote:So, how can we improve. I'll start with a couple of suggestions:

1. Kicking - Our kicking, though generally chased well with a line of players still tended to be too long, giving the opposition time to assess their position and counter attack. Slightly shorter kicks to create pressure on the receiver would be a big improvement.

2. Tackling - In general our tackling was good, but sometimes there is a tendency to go a bit high and get brushed off (such as with the first NZ try).

3. Silly penalties - Corbisiero (I think), Morgan (I think) and Vunipola all gave away silly penalties that gave the all blacks possession and a chance to attack/score points. Don't do this!

1 - Absolutely agree. Indeed, it has been the bane of this AI series for most teams. If you kick long, you have to get the ball beyond the potential receiver and make them turn to retrieve a bouncing ball, and if you kick high it has to be short enough that your players can mount a serious challenge.

2 - The problem for the ABs first try was more that we couldn't slow the ball down in the two or three phases before the score, leaving us short of defenders on the blind side, rather than any specific issues with the tackling (what Mike Ford would describe as a defensive system failure). Ashton (I think it is) gambled inwards to try and cut off the first receiver but was beaten by quick hands.
The second try came because the Jane carried in midfield and got outside Ben Morgan (I think - could be Wood, big guy in a scrum cap), drawing Ashton in to a position where he was trying to defend against both the ball carrier and the pass to outside men. Under such a situation it was no surprise that he failed to execute an effective tackle. (actually, the second try came from Farrell failing to put the ball in touch and a great running take by Dagg, setting up the opportunity a couple of phases earlier). Again, more the ABs finding a weakness in the defensive alignment and system rather than individual one-up missed tackles (although we have had a few of those too, and Ashton is one of our worse culprits), and your point about players going high and being brushed off by powerful opponents is well made. Something Carter and a few other ABs were guilty of as well, particularly in trying to tackle Manu T - when he's got some momentum you have to try and take his legs, as otherwise he'll just batter through you.

3 - Penalties happen, although the stupid ones (Vunipola's not 10 then grabbing and not releasing the ball-carrier - I think the yellow card was more for the cynical attempt to delay retaking the tap than for the original offence) definitely should be avoided. Sometimes you have to push the edge of the envelope as to what the ref will allow (and sometimes the ref makes the wrong call, like the penalty against Farrell in the lead up to the ABs second try - the ball was out and he came past the ruck on his feet before diving to make a tackle of the SH). Not such a big deal in this match, but can make all the difference in tight games.

I'd also add:
4 - Precision of execution. Was certainly a lot better than in the recent matches, but there were still a couple of occasions (Ashton knocking on in the AB 22 for one) where we got tight when presented with points scoring opportunities and tried pushing things.

Overall though, it was a very, very good performance and should give a lot of confidence going forward. Hopefully we can continue to play with the same intensity in defence and freedom in attack that we showed for most of this match.

Don't wear Purple?

screamingaddabs wrote:

gregortree wrote:Ashton needs to be sent back to tackling school.
He had a vague slap at the back of Reed ? during the 2nd AB try, I could not believe how pathetic his attempted 'tackle' was.

Yeah, he has been gash in defence. Is his place in doubt do you think? He was probably the worst performing of the starting XV.

I completely agree, his defence just isn't good enough for a pro winger I think, he could do with improving his all around game.

There were also still some stupid penalties, for example when we had just gone 3-0 up, we give away a kickable penalty within 30 seconds.

The main way England can improve though is to be consistent, the pack need to play with that level of intensity and togetherness every game. Hopefully they can prove that it wasnt just a one-off attain those standards every time.

Passing - the number of passes from Youngs and Farrell that I saw high and behind the runner. Could be a bit of runners going early also, but still dreadful. Pass to Tuilagi for Ashton's try made him stop, then start again.
Lineout - Parling needs to let someone else have a go, bit easy to defend!
Kicking - although not in Priestland's league of clangers, autumn has shown plenty of aimless kicking and poor chasing, INCLUDING some in the NZ game.

Consistency. Just keep doing what they did on the field yesterday, at that level.

Obviously eveyrone has off-days and no-ones an automaton, but AB's maange to consistently put in a great performace, that one of the defining traits that makes them the worlds best. We need to emulate that.

...and so say all of us,
and so say all of us.................

I think they'll have to improve. My feeling is that they caught the AB's out tactically and with enthusiasm as much as anything on Saturday. I expect most teams to lift their games over the next few years. The Aussies are young and have a diabolical injury list, the boks are developing under a new coach (much the same as England and France).

The good thing is they have dream build up. 6 nations next year. Most players with the Lions and a chance for management to develop new players. The following season starts with the AI's, another six nations finishing with a 3 match tour of NZ. It's a great program to develop what is a young team.

It's all about experience now and building on the accuracy, urgency and discipline they found on Saturday. Management has to develop equally. Rowntree's credentials have never been in question, the rest have. For the first time an attacking backline got it's act together and really took me by surprise. Catty and Farrell weren't many people's idea of an ideal coaching duo but they obviously got something right. As for SL, well, Ive been waiting for a sign that the success he had with the Saxons would start to show with the senior side and maybe this is it. In fairness of course, Andy Farrell was there too. So, all in all, this genuinely is a journey for all of them.

aitchw wrote:It's all about experience now and building on the accuracy, urgency and discipline they found on Saturday. Management has to develop equally. Rowntree's credentials have never been in question, the rest have. For the first time an attacking backline got it's act together and really took me by surprise. Catty and Farrell weren't many people's idea of an ideal coaching duo but they obviously got something right. As for SL, well, Ive been waiting for a sign that the success he had with the Saxons would start to show with the senior side and maybe this is it. In fairness of course, Andy Farrell was there too. So, all in all, this genuinely is a journey for all of them.

Maybe the lack of experience is in some ways a good thing? If the coaching team are inexperienced then they are perhaps more willing to change things when they don't work - aren't so set in their ways? The important bit is that the team clearly trust the coaches and that's half the battle sometimes.

Yes, agree with that. There's a kind of freedom with this lot that should be good for the setup.

aitchw

You forgot Rowntree! The only coach to emerge with credit from the World Cup fallout, and the way the pack has improved since he became general forwards coach indicates that the feedback was spot on. During the 2010 AIs and 2011 6Ns we were a pretty good side (the victories against Aus, Samoa, Wales, Italy and France), but when we came unstuck (against SA and Ire) it was because our pack just got beaten up. The games against SA and NZ this year seem to show that Rowntree's brought the pack on a long way.

thomh, didn't forget him.

'Rowntree's credentials have never been in question, the rest have.'

Otherwise totally agree with you.

Serves me right for not reading everything twice. Apologies.

No apology neccessary.

I think just getting a settled team and more experiance will help England lots. It will breed consistency and with the way teams are now that is vital. I mean just look at the strength now of teams.
The top 4 we all know are class, England are improving all the time, Ireland are very inconsistent but can be brilliant, Argentina despite that loss to Ireland are a very tough team to play, Wales might have had a bad Autumn but are capable of beating anyone when they get it right. Scotland again may have not played well but they are no walkover they have the basis of a good team there. Tonga and Samoa are rapidly improving and provide a real stern test now and Italy as always are improving and getting more consistant. International rugby is now becoming a fierce battle ground

Billy Twelvetrees at 12

Get a tin of custard in to replace Vunipola

Actually beat Wales and Ireland in the same 6 nations. Just once in a decade would be nice.

By definition, the XXIII that played on Saturday is good enough to beat the best in the world. Improvement means:
a) Performing at that level consistently
b) Being able to grind out a win when they can't perform at that level
c) Developing a squad of c45 players (3 in each position) who can play to a similar kind of level
d) Developing understanding among the squad so that the trust and instinctive reading of each others' game is there. You could see what they were trying to do against Fiji and SA (if not so much against Aus), but it wasn't coming off. On Saturday, the time spent together as a team paid off and things they were trying previously started working.

e) Most importantly: developing the tactical flexibility to play in the right style to break down different styles of teams. England scored tries against the ABs because the pack were able to draw in enough players that the defenders began to worry about tackling Tuilagi one-on-one. Other teams won't be caught the some way (and will learn to defend against it).

In the short term, Lancaster's coaching team need to keep developing the style of play so that it doesn't become stale. In the long term, Mike Catt's job is to get the whole squad to a level where they can fine tune their style and decisions on the fly. Not easy - it took SCW, armed with some of the finest decision-makers in the game (Greenwood, Catt, Hill, Johnson, Dawson) 4 years to get to that point.

There will be mis-steps along the way. I'd not be surprised to see an SCW-like cycle of inspired wins among workmanlike ones and unpredictable losses. The measure of progress will be whether the team founders on the same opposing tactics twice. If they can learn their lessons, there's no reason they can't be genuine contenders for 2015.

Poorfour wrote:By definition, the XXIII that played on Saturday is good enough to beat the best in the world. Improvement means:
a) Performing at that level consistently
b) Being able to grind out a win when they can't perform at that level
c) Developing a squad of c45 players (3 in each position) who can play to a similar kind of level
d) Developing understanding among the squad so that the trust and instinctive reading of each others' game is there. You could see what they were trying to do against Fiji and SA (if not so much against Aus), but it wasn't coming off. On Saturday, the time spent together as a team paid off and things they were trying previously started working.

e) Most importantly: developing the tactical flexibility to play in the right style to break down different styles of teams. England scored tries against the ABs because the pack were able to draw in enough players that the defenders began to worry about tackling Tuilagi one-on-one. Other teams won't be caught the some way (and will learn to defend against it).

In the short term, Lancaster's coaching team need to keep developing the style of play so that it doesn't become stale. In the long term, Mike Catt's job is to get the whole squad to a level where they can fine tune their style and decisions on the fly. Not easy - it took SCW, armed with some of the finest decision-makers in the game (Greenwood, Catt, Hill, Johnson, Dawson) 4 years to get to that point.

There will be mis-steps along the way. I'd not be surprised to see an SCW-like cycle of inspired wins among workmanlike ones and unpredictable losses. The measure of progress will be whether the team founders on the same opposing tactics twice. If they can learn their lessons, there's no reason they can't be genuine contenders for 2015.

Well cobbled together words Poorfour!

The answer to that will lie in their next game.

After the win against New Zealand, I wouldn't ask for more other than perhaps an out an out winger on the bench at least.

We need to continue to develop the youngsters in favour of the old guard.

When you beat the world's best you cant talk about improvement - you could after SA and AUS - but they improved. Until they man sausage up as they did against SA, I will rest happy until the 6 Nations when we will probably lose to Scotland in permafrost.