Saints v Ulster Friday HEC 7th December

So the big double header kicks off at Franklin's Gardens on Friday evening. Both teams will believe a win is possible but who will prevail?

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe says Ulster will need to improve on the current form. I would agree, though the disruption of Autumn Internationals wouldn't have helped.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19701.php#.ULyVo-RWySo

Interesting interview with Pat Lam (Former Saints captain) who actually thinks these sides could face each other in the Final next May.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv?play=media&id=13581

Ulster XV & replacements to face Northampton Saints, Heineken Cup, Friday 7th December, Franklin's Gardens (8.00pm):
(15-9): J Payne; T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble; P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c), D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Brady, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, N Williams, P Marshall, L Marshall, C Gilroy.

Northampton XV.

(15-9): B Foden; K Pisi, G Pisi, D Waldouck, J Elliott; R Lamb, M Roberts;

(1-8): S Tonga'uiha, D Hartley (c), B Mujati, S Manoa, C Lawes, C Clark, T Wood, G van Velze;

Replacements (16-23): M Haywood, A Waller, P Doran-Jones, M Sorenson, P Dowson, L Dickson, S Myler, T May.

Might as well get the selection debate opened early;

Neil McComb or Dan Tuohy?
Roger Wilson or Nick Williams?
Craig Gilroy or Andrew Trimble?
Luke Marshall or Paddy Wallace?

Some of Anscombes comments: -

"It didn't feel like a win against the Scarlets and was pretty disappointing,"

"They're wins but I'm not taking a lot of comfort from the way we're playing. We have better players than our performances are indicating."

"Some guys had an opportunity to put their hands up for selection and they didn't take it and will be missing out next week."

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Newforge Training Ground this week

Notch wrote:Might as well get the selection debate opened early;

Neil McComb or Dan Tuohy?
Roger Wilson or Nick Williams?
Craig Gilroy or Andrew Trimble?
Luke Marshall or Paddy Wallace?

My choices highlighted above. Marshall/Wallace is the most difficult call but I'd go with experience for the away game. If we were at home then Marshall would have got my nod.
Wilson was superb and has been Mr. Consistency since he returned (As expected). He will relish having a go at his former teammates.
Coin toss for either of Henderson/Williams for the blindside berth.
Trimble hasn't done anything wrong all season and but for Gilroy's performance against Figi would have started against Argentina for his 50th cap. His aggressive play and kick chases will be needed against Saints.

Tuohy, Trimble, Wilson and Marshall for me but I expect anscombe to pick Wallace.

I think we may get a surprise and see Williams included in our back row aswell.

Had Stevenson been fit and firing I would have dropped Tuohy. Needs to get his angry head back

Notch wrote:Might as well get the selection debate opened early;

Neil McComb or Dan Tuohy?
Roger Wilson or Nick Williams?
Craig Gilroy or Andrew Trimble?
Luke Marshall or Paddy Wallace?

Touhy, Wilson, Trimble and Wallace for the away game and perhaps Williams, Marshall and Gilroy at Ravenhill.

We need to play it tighter in Frankin Gardens and try and come way with a win or losing BP and then go for the maximum points at Ravenhill.

A lot of tight calls though and I'm pretty happy with whatever team we pick.

Williams should play 8 or be on the bench. I don't like him as a blindside!

We've been robbed of momentum and form by the Autumn Internationals, we need solid experienced players to slot back in.

Go for Wilson, Trimble and Tuohy. Last night I though Luke Marshall but probably now leaning towards Paddy Wallace.

Any news on Ferris? He was targetting the game on the 15th to return I think?

back row of henderson henry wilson with williams at 20.

tuohy trimble wallace with my conservative hat on for the away game. swap round for the home game.

great headaches to have.

just make sure you keep that unbeaten run going for us on the 21st.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:back row of henderson henry wilson with williams at 20.

tuohy trimble wallace with my conservative hat on for the away game. swap round for the home game.

great headaches to have.

just make sure you keep that unbeaten run going for us on the 21st.

I've promised Stag we will keep it going until 29th in Thomond. Sorry Jen

That's fine. You just worry about the Munster game and we'll do the rest.

Some genuine head-scratchers about who starts this season and, like Rodders, I'll be pretty happy with whatever permutation Anscombe goes with.

Some thoughts.

Wilson/Williams is an interesting one. Wilson is the better eight in terms of skills, and controls the ball better at the base of the scrum, which may be vital if we don’t get the dominance we’re used to. And he used to play for the Saints. On the other hand, Williams is worth his (considerable) weight in gold less than twenty feet from their line. The opposition knows exactly what he’s going to do, but usually can do little about it. Certainly he ties up defenders like no-body’s business. I’d expect Wilson for a more guarded gameplan, and Williams if we want to go hell for leather. Maybe Williams off the bench for the last twenty, although his lack of versatility makes him a risky bench option.

Apart from that, I’d start Tuohy, Wallace and Trimble. If any don’t perform, they get replaced at home the next week (and McComb’s performances across the season mean that Tuohy is included in that. I don’t know if I’d pick Tuohy over Stevenson, if he were fit.)


I’m going to suggest two more of these delightful headaches – Callum Black vs. Tom Court, and Robbie Diack vs. Iain Henderson.

Black has been doing an excellent job in the scrum, is busy in the loose and, like Rory Best, looks about ten years older than he actually is (I was shocked to learn he’s only 26!) Tom Court is showing up more than ever in the loose, on player’s shoulders, but occasionally meets tightheads who have his number in the scrum (against Glasgow, for instance). I’d probably still go for Court, but if there are any issues, I’d happily get Black on ASAP.

Henderson was quiet against the Scarlets, and although there have been some very powerful, assured performances, he’s still got more in the “potential” column than the “performance” column for me. Diack has been a different player since the last few games of last season – harder-edged, aggressive, industrious at the ruck. I thought he was actually pretty good at seven yesterday, and I mean by an openside’s criteria. I’m leaning more towards Diack, to be honest.


We need to click pretty quickly. Anscombe's been in the papers saying how disappointed he has been with our performances. Understandable. I think that the mini-tour to Italy sucked a fair bit of wind from our sails. But think of the players on our team lining up for kick-off. Rory Best. John Afoa. Johann Muller. Chris Henry. Ruan Pienaar. Paddy Wallace. Tommy Bowe. Jared Payne. The experience, the drive, the invention, the power, the quality of that spine.

And in the Rabo – 10 for 10. Including Ulster 4, Wales 0. I was looking at the table this morning and saw a big fat zero in the LBP column and thought, “have we really not scored a single losing bonus point? That’s poor”. And then remembered why.

I think away from home Wilson is a safer option than Williams who can win a game but could just as easy lose it. I think Trimbles showing at the weekend and his tougher, more aggressive defence will get him the nod ahead of Gilroy.

Don Alfonso wrote:
I’m going to suggest two more of these delightful headaches – Callum Black vs. Tom Court, and Robbie Diack vs. Iain Henderson.

Great post Don and a fair point about Diack and Black. I actually think Darren Caves spot may be under threat after a poor game last night. If we had a viable alternative to Payne at 15, we might have seen Payne at 13.

Apart from the peerless Chris Henry (our very own Ritchie McCaw) I don't think anyone is guaranteed to start in the backrow. Wilson has probably done enough to start but it depends what Anscombes gameplan is. He might go for broke away from home.

Don Alfonso wrote:Rory Best, looks about ten years older than he actually is (I was shocked to learn he’s only 26!)

He does look 10 years older even though he's 30. He looks older than me and I'm well old enough to be his Da

rodders wrote:
Apart from the peerless Chris Henry (our very own Ritchie McCaw)

That's it Rodders. You're fecked now. You've jumped the shark

Think he meant Calum Black Jenifer with the age bit. I think if Anscombe does go with Wilson to start Williams could miss out all together in favor of a more versatile Diack on the bench.

neilthom7 wrote:Think he meant Calum Black Jenifer with the age bit. I think if Anscombe does go with Wilson to start Williams could miss out all together in favor of a more versatile Diack on the bench.

Ah. OK. Would be surprising for an Ulsterfan to get Best's age wrong.

Good point on Williams. Diack at 7 though? I know he had 7 on his back yesterday, but at 8'2" it must take him about 5 minutes to get on the deck.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Think he meant Calum Black Jenifer with the age bit. I think if Anscombe does go with Wilson to start Williams could miss out all together in favor of a more versatile Diack on the bench.

Ah. OK. Would be surprising for an Ulsterfan to get Best's age wrong.

Good point on Williams. Diack at 7 though? I know he had 7 on his back yesterday, but at 8'2" it must take him about 5 minutes to get on the deck.

He had a good game yesterday I thought and hes only 6ft 4 which is only an ince taller than Henry and he seems to do ok lol

Yeah, it's Black who's 26. I think Diack is our best bench option per se - can play six and eight ably, has done a good job at seven when asked to, is a "break glass in case of emergency" second row. But I think he's doen eough to start.

Don Alfonso wrote:Yeah, it's Black who's 26. I think Diack is our best bench option per se - can play six and eight ably, has done a good job at seven when asked to, is a "break glass in case of emergency" second row. But I think he's doen eough to start.

I hope we never have to break that glass again Don the question is if you have Diack start who covers on the bench Henderson? He is probably a better 7 than Williams and definately a better 6. I think Anscombe will stick with Henderson at 6 and then Diack on the bench. I think in a real tight game Williams is too much of a risk we have got away with some stupid stuff by him so far but Northampton will n let us away with them so save the Hulk for Ravenhill v Saints I say.

If Court is struggling in the scrum, we need to act fast to rectify the problem cos Northampton is not a place to scrummage badly!

Yeah, I think Williams' lack of versatility is an issue. I'd probably go for Henderson on the bench. But if he started, I'd be confident that he can rise to the occasion.

Also, it would mean an all-Ulsterman back row. How long has it been since that were the case in an HEC game? And then the return leg could be Ferris / Henry / Wilson / Henderson on the bench.

BTW, for all the "talented young Welsh youngsters" branding the Scarlets revel in, how many Saffers did they have on the pitch yesterday? I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

I would go with Willliams at 8. If Wood replicates his form from the weekend then you'd need all the muscle you can get. So perhaps something like 6 Henderson/Diack, 7 Henry, 8 Williams. Just a radical thought.

I think it would be a big mistake not to include Williams in the squad. He's been the catalyst for so much of our attacking play this season. I think the call between him and Wilson will be a very close one for Anscombe.

If we go with Henderson at 6 then we can go with both Diack and Williams/Wilson on the bench I think.

The problem is Morgan with Williams not only will he give half our supporters heart attacks with his play he has a t least 3 times a game when he should hold it and throws it away to the opposition we can't afford that in a tight away game v Saints either. Maybe Wilson's years at Saints will help nullify Wood who is a quality player.

Don Alfonso wrote:

BTW, for all the "talented young Welsh youngsters" branding the Scarlets revel in, how many Saffers did they have on the pitch yesterday? I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

Not sure why you posted this. If viewtothegym comments on Ulster then it's probably best ignored.

The Scarlets had 3 Saffa's on the pitch, each of them started. Jacobie Adriaanse, Johan Snyman and George Earle. They still produce talented youngsters every year, it's mostly in the back-row and backline. They also take other youngsters who haven't made the cut at their region and make them better players. FYI, Scarlets have produced a talented front row also. Rob Evans the LH, Samson Lee the TH and Kirby Myhill the hooker. Evans is injured, Lee was with the Wales squad and Myhill replaced an injured Emyr Phillips yesterday.

The development model between the two teams is very similar. Outside of Wales I would say Ulster are my second supported team. I'm enjoying the rugby they play. They took a hard route to get to where they are now. Where they fell just short on the past they look to now be on top. They have brought in some overseas players for the experience and depth and it is working to their benefit. It's the same for the Scarlets.

rodders wrote:I think it would be a big mistake not to include Williams in the squad. He's been the catalyst for so much of our attacking play this season. I think the call between him and Wilson will be a very close one for Anscombe.

If we go with Henderson at 6 then we can go with both Diack and Williams/Wilson on the bench I think.

Your awful Harsh on Chris Henry Rodders lol

That was a joke I realise you will probably not get because it felt right in my mind but looks stupid now lol I would rather have McComb on the bench because I don't think Muller will last the game so we may need both Henderson and McComb to finish the game at Lock and we dont want to repeat having no locks when needed v Saints.

No No No!! Back up the truck Neil! Ritchie...er I mean Chris is at 7!

My team:
Court, Herring, Afoa
Muller, Tuohy
Henderson, Henry, Wil?
Pienaar, Jackson
Trimble, Wallace, Cave, Bowe
Payne
Black, Best, ?, McComb, Diack, PMarshall, LMarshall, Gilroy

I'd start Herring as Best didn't look 100% fit and was throwing poorly at the Lineout, (especially as the team will only have one training day before Friday).
Williams has to be favourite to start as Anscombe rested him, and he balances the backrow with Henderson and Henry. If Wilson starts there is very little carrying power, but he is a great option in wet conditions, so the choice could be determined by the Met Office. I don't see the point in having either Wilson or Williams on the bench as there is no cover for openside, so it has to be either Diack or McComish, therefore Robbie gets it.
Otherwise the deciding selection factor for this game has to be "experience" - so Court over Black, Tuohy over McComb, Wallace over LMarshall, Trimble over Gilroy.

The big concern is Tight head cover as the Saints will undoubtedly target the scrum and Ulster will need reinforcements.

So I would like to point out that in the Ulster team we now have 1F, Chris Mccaw, The Hulk, Paddu Jackson (courtesy of bbc), David Trimble and at least 4 Marshalls (again thanks bbc) why don't we have proper names anymore lol

While I like your thinking, Rodders, could Henderson cover second row effectively in an away HEC game?

Moragn - just a bit of banter. Apologise if it annoyed you. But I've read so many narky articles about Ulster and their "SA contingent/heavy-hitters/muscle" that I like to point out that we're not alone in that. I think the model has worked excellently for us (so far) and it has clearly been an explicit, intensely worked-out strategy. I think it has had benefits far beyond the eighty minutes on the pitch, in terms of learning leadership, new ideas, and exposing our younger players to more high-pressure games against tough competition.

No it didn't annoy me I was just wondering why you posted it. I completely agree with you. Who were the most experienced guys/leaders you brought in, just Muller and Pienaar? Scarlets have recruited muscle but I'm unsure if they're leadership material.

Don Alfonso wrote:While I like your thinking, Rodders, could Henderson cover second row effectively in an away HEC game?

Only one way to find out Don! I suspect that Aukster is spot on though. It's hard to imagine leaving out either Wilson or Williams totally though.

Shows our depth though Rodders

The Great Aukster wrote:My team:
Court, Herring, Afoa
Muller, Tuohy
Henderson, Henry, Wil?
Pienaar, Jackson
Trimble, Wallace, Cave, Bowe
Payne
Black, Best, ?, McComb, Diack, PMarshall, LMarshall, Gilroy

I'd start Herring as Best didn't look 100% fit and was throwing poorly at the Lineout, (especially as the team will only have one training day before Friday).
Williams has to be favourite to start as Anscombe rested him, and he balances the backrow with Henderson and Henry. If Wilson starts there is very little carrying power, but he is a great option in wet conditions, so the choice could be determined by the Met Office. I don't see the point in having either Wilson or Williams on the bench as there is no cover for openside, so it has to be either Diack or McComish, therefore Robbie gets it.
Otherwise the deciding selection factor for this game has to be "experience" - so Court over Black, Tuohy over McComb, Wallace over LMarshall, Trimble over Gilroy.

The big concern is Tight head cover as the Saints will undoubtedly target the scrum and Ulster will need reinforcements.

Was he rested or was he dropped?

I'd check Wilsons yardage from yesterday. I thought it was fairly impressive.

neilthom7 wrote:Shows our depth though Rodders

Sure does Neil, happy times!

Morgannwg wrote:No it didn't annoy me I was just wondering why you posted it. I completely agree with you. Who were the most experienced guys/leaders you brought in, just Muller and Pienaar? Scarlets have recruited muscle but I'm unsure if they're leadership material.

Botha as well, the year before(?), to help the scrum. Terblanche added an awful lot, especially to a pre-Bowe's return backline. Gilroy was twenty and playing almost every game, Spence was twenty-one and appearing regularly. Payne is a better player, but I think Stefan really helped develop our younger guys at that stage.

RWC Draw about to take place ITV 4

Will Anscombe be a very nice man if Ulster lose form? I mean to say, will he have the personality to cause ripples in the rock pool if Ulster were to start sliding?

This is not about Ulster. They're doing just fine. Not a swipe at them at all. But Anscombe seems a grim kind of man even with his 10 out of 10! To start talking combatively already about players missing out on an opportunity to impress him on the last game, suggests to me that he wouldn't be adverse to refining his disgruntlement with players, or wouldn't be shy of directing blame their way if a slide in form happened.

I just think it a little early in his tenure to be throwing missiles over the bow of players, given how well they've operated for him so far this season.

SecretFly wrote:Will Anscombe be a very nice man if Ulster lose form?

Will he be a nice man if we don't?

Ireland were drawn in Pool D with France, Italy, Europe 2 and America's 1

Sh1te! I wanted the All Blacks!

btw England, Wales and Australia in group A and almost certainly will be in there with Fiji good luck fellas lol if the world rankings hold true our opponents would be Canada and Georgia. HAHAHA they just asked Lancaster about the game on Saturday when he was standing right besides McCaw

When the question was asked I thought McCaw might kill Will Greenwood then he asked about England group and McCaw couldn't hide his smile lol

SecretFly wrote:Sh1te! I wanted the All Blacks!

We'll get them in the final....

spiked curry powder will be ready.

They are in group C so if we lose to France we will get them sooner than that Rodders lol

SecretFly wrote:spiked curry powder will be ready.

You're not suggesting that would impact on their performance are you fly...