Saints v Ulster Friday HEC 7th December

by Rava Mon 03 Dec 2012, 12:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

So the big double header kicks off at Franklin's Gardens on Friday evening. Both teams will believe a win is possible but who will prevail?

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe says Ulster will need to improve on the current form. I would agree, though the disruption of Autumn Internationals wouldn't have helped.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19701.php#.ULyVo-RWySo

Interesting interview with Pat Lam (Former Saints captain) who actually thinks these sides could face each other in the Final next May.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv?play=media&id=13581

Ulster XV & replacements to face Northampton Saints, Heineken Cup, Friday 7th December, Franklin's Gardens (8.00pm):
(15-9): J Payne; T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble; P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c), D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Brady, C Black, R Lutton, R Diack, N Williams, P Marshall, L Marshall, C Gilroy.

Northampton XV.

(15-9): B Foden; K Pisi, G Pisi, D Waldouck, J Elliott; R Lamb, M Roberts;

(1-8): S Tonga'uiha, D Hartley (c), B Mujati, S Manoa, C Lawes, C Clark, T Wood, G van Velze;

Replacements (16-23): M Haywood, A Waller, P Doran-Jones, M Sorenson, P Dowson, L Dickson, S Myler, T May.

by **rodders** Sat 08 Dec 2012, 8:41 pm

MrsP wrote:Guys,

Those links could lead to the thing disappearing.

Could I suggest PMs?

oops sorry my fault. I've removed the post.... Sorry

by neilthom7 Sat 08 Dec 2012, 9:30 pm

Great win Munster tonight btw 3 from 3 come on Leinster don't let us down its only Clermont guys Whistle

by toml Sun 09 Dec 2012, 5:19 am

Just read a user comment on the Indo report saying they thought that Doran Jones should be cited as well as Hartley for a series of headbutts on an Ulster player (hendy?) on the bottom of a ruck about 10mins from the end.
Anyone see this?

by MrsP Sun 09 Dec 2012, 11:27 am

Maybe that was why Henderson looked so surprised to be the one with the yellow card?

I didn't see anything but that ruck was there for a very long time.

by Standulstermen Sun 09 Dec 2012, 11:34 am

Don't think it was doran jones but Waller. The clearing out he tried to do was essentially lead with the head aimed at Hendersons on the ground. It was either the worst technique ever or he was looking to hurt Henderson

by MrsP Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:09 pm

Just had a look. I think it is Waller.

Nasty indeed.

by UlstermaninGlasgow Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:19 pm

Yeah not nice.

Also had a look at the Best Hartley incident again. Best looked like he tripped over Hartley and then Dylan just started smacking him with his elbow... Be a very lucky boy if he doesn't get something for that.

by MrsP Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:23 pm

I agree UMIG.

I think Hartley might have actually done the tripping too. And there seemed to be a punch before the elbows.

Ah well. Leave it to the authorities to sort out. We just need to look after our game next week no matter who they send.

I'm probably more nervous about next week than I was about Friday.

by UlstermaninGlasgow Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:30 pm

Indeed... And I've just realised I'm going to be back home for this one. Oh why didn't I get a ticket...

Biggest question is who replaces Muller. Do we stick with big Neil, who hasn't let anyone down this season, or go for Hendy with Diack at 6?

by **Notch** Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:35 pm

I think we go with Neil McComb. Big man deserves it, Henderson isn't quite ready for 80 minutes in the row.

Other changes? None, I think. Wallace, Wilson, Court and Trimble were the guys under pressure for their place but I think they all had storming games.

by neilthom7 Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:35 pm

I reckon McComb will start he will want to keep everything else same as if he can I would have thought.

by The Great Aukster Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:51 pm

Hartley should definitely be cited - he pulls Best's shirt to stop him getting back to the defence and Rory falls over him. He then throws a punch, but didn't have enough leverage so he tried to use the elbow instead. The last few minutes he was on, it looked as though he had totally lost the rag and Mallinder probably couldn't get him off quick enough.

Waller looked like he dived head first at Henderson's head, but one of his own team mate's legs just got in the way before serious contact. He had another couple of goes including with his fist and knee, before the ref blew up. It was reminiscent of the Heaslip red card with McCaw caught with his head poking out, but can't see Waller being cited as Henderson wasn't seriously injured.

by Standulstermen Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:54 pm

Is Stevenson definitely out?

by **Notch** Sun 09 Dec 2012, 12:57 pm

I'm watching the game again on YouTube. Barnes is very funny. He does rightly highlight Paddy Wallaces defence all game, but amusingly fails to stop pointing this out after he leaves the pitch. Hartley taking a few swings at Rory Best on the ground is 'just naughty'. We've lost our last three games against English opposition apparently? We've won 6 out of our last 7 against them... We sacked a coach for losing a Final? The decision to replace him was taken before the Six Nations etc. etc.

Just watching the game again you can see how awesome that backrow is. Chris Henry and Roger Wilson are just guys you want on your team. They get through a power of work, both leaders, both great at contact and at the breakdown.

Can't wait for next week now.

by toml Sun 09 Dec 2012, 1:03 pm

Hope big Neil gets the nod, he deserves it

by MrsP Sun 09 Dec 2012, 1:03 pm

Barnes was a bit of a joke.

He also said that Pienaar had a hand in (?) Clarke's face when he actually had the flat of his hand on the side of his head trying to push him away while he was being held long after the whistle had gone.

picard

by Thomond Sun 09 Dec 2012, 1:07 pm

Saw one or two of the tries yesterday, Ulster scare the shoite out of me it has to be said, if they bring the full team to Thomond on 29th and we play ROG at 10 we will get hammered. With Keatley there we will lose by a fair bit. Payne could do a great job at 13 I think, he has brought so much to the Ulster backs, terrific player.

by **Notch** Sun 09 Dec 2012, 1:21 pm

I feel like there is likely to be a bit of rotation for that game though.

We are likely to have had the full team out for three games in a row (2x Saints and vs Leinster) so we will rotate in Limerick. Of course, that probably means the likes of Paul Marshall, Callum Black, Robbie Diack, Nick Williams, Luke Marshall and Craig Gilroy come in. So we will still name a competitive side

by MrsP Sun 09 Dec 2012, 2:22 pm

After Henderson went off who packed down at Lock?

I think Tommy was filling in on the flank for scrums but I can't remember who went into the second row for the scrums.

by MrsP Sun 09 Dec 2012, 2:25 pm

Just checked.

Nick Williams moved forward.

by Standulstermen Mon 10 Dec 2012, 1:22 am

I think we will actually use Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Williams against Leinster. That would be my call with Trimble or Bowe, Wallace and Wilson coming back for munster. Might see McComish down at munster too. At some point big John will need a rest as well.

by Rava Mon 10 Dec 2012, 9:14 am

Well it had to happen!

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Saints v Ulster Friday HEC 7th December - Page 11 Euro_t10

by **rodders** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 9:46 am

Standulstermen wrote:I think we will actually use Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Williams against Leinster. That would be my call with Trimble or Bowe, Wallace and Wilson coming back for munster. Might see McComish down at munster too. At some point big John will need a rest as well.

I think there a several changes we can make that won't weaken the team at all. It wouldn't surprise me if we made changes for next week. Its a great position to be in and there are numerous guys really pushing for starts.

by Rava Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:03 am

rodders wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:I think we will actually use Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Williams against Leinster. That would be my call with Trimble or Bowe, Wallace and Wilson coming back for munster. Might see McComish down at munster too. At some point big John will need a rest as well.

I think there a several changes we can make that won't weaken the team at all. It wouldn't surprise me if we made changes for next week. Its a great position to be in and there are numerous guys really pushing for starts.

You are joking? Its another must win game that will put us in a great place if we win but in a real dogfight with Castres if we dont. Certainly not a game to be making too many changes from a team that performed so well at the weekend. I expect McComb to take the place of Muller and that will be it.

by **rodders** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:14 am

No I'm not joking. I believe we will keep the same side but that there are several players who could come in and still get us the result we need next week.

Most notably Luke Marshall and Craig Gilroy but there are a few others.

Why do you find that funny?

by Rava Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:17 am

I'm sorry I wasn't laughing.

by Don Alfonso Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:26 am

Rava wrote:Well it had to happen!

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

I have to say, that really delights me.

I know it doesn't come with any silverware, and I don't think we actually are the best (i'd still have at least Clermont and Leisnter above us), but I think it's quite an endorsement, It's a sound sytem they use.

by **rodders** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:47 am

by toml Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:51 am

Anscombe hinting at hendy to play lock?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/anscombe-plays-down-loss-of-captain-muller-3320228.html

by Standulstermen Mon 10 Dec 2012, 10:56 am

I would think if he is putting Henderson to lock out there, he will probably go with McComb. If Henderson did move in it would need to be Diack coming in and not Williams otherwise we would be woefully short of line out options.

I expect Tuohy to call a lot of ball on himself this weekend.

by **Notch** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:01 am

I can't see why we would make changes other than at lock, obviously. Not after everyone played so well last week.

I mean, we could but what kind of message does dropping players who have done so, so well send out? The guys who were marginal calls- Court, Wallace, Wilson, Trimble- have earned the right to continue. It would just be change for the sake of change.

by toml Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:08 am

Now that the dust has settled in Europe, it's time to dish out the kudos for outstanding performances in Round Three of the Heineken Cup.

Harlequins, Toulouse and Ulster all picked up important victories last weekend, with Ulster's demolition of Northampton Saints away from home standing as the pick of the results in a brilliant performance.

In France, Clermont edged out Leinster in another brutal battle following on from last year's semi-final, handing Clermont the advantage in Pool 5 ahead of the return leg at the Aviva Stadium next weekend.

The surprise winners of the weekend however were Connacht, who took down a star-studded Biarritz side for a memorable win in Galway.

Team of Round Three:

15 Jared Payne (Ulster): After missing last season with a ruptured achilles tendon, Payne was on fire against Northampton, producing both a try and an assist in Ulster's dominant performance away from home.

14 Fetu'u Vainikolo (Connacht): Two weeks after helping Tonga to a famous win over Scotland, Vainikolo has another famous try to add to his collection after his early score helped pave the way for Connacht's upset victory over Biarritz.

13 Aurélien Rougerie (Clermont): Mr. Clermont was on fine form as his side remained unbeaten at the Stade Marcel Michelin, containing the Leinster attack and producing plenty of offloads.

12 James Downey (Munster): Facing familiar opposition in Saracens after his days with Northampton, Downey was at his physical best at Thomond Park on both sides of the ball.

11 Andrew Trimble (Ulster): The Ireland winger clinched the first try against Northampton with a brilliant finish in the corner, beating out England full-back Ben Foden in a sign of things to come.

10 Dan Parks (Connacht): Plenty of competition for the 10 shirt this week from Gareth Steenson, Johnny Sexton and others, but Parks gets the nod after his 17-point haul against Biarritz, which included four penalties and a drop goal.

9 Benoit Paillaugue (Montpellier): Ruan Pienaar impressed again for Ulster but Paillaugue edges him out after leading Montpellier to victory over 14-man Cardiff Blues away from home. The scrum-half kicked six penalties after being tip-tackled by Cardiff scrum-half Lloyd Williams, who saw red as a result.

8 Louis Picamoles (Toulouse): The France number eight continued his rich vein of form against the Ospreys, making more metres than any other player and producing a brilliant offload out the back for Census Johnston's bonus-point try.

7 Julian Salvi (Leicester Tigers): The second half may have frustrated Leicester boss Richard Cockerill but he can have no complaints about the first half, with Salvi crossing for two tries including the bonus point score before the break. Leicester have felt unbalanced in the back row during his absence, underlining his influence on the side.

6 Iain Henderson (Ulster): A rising star of the Irish game, Henderson has returned from winning his first caps with Ireland in November and shone alongside Chris Henry and Roger Wilson against Northampton. Beating defenders and weighing in with plenty of tackles, he is worth keeping eye one.

5 Nathan Hines (Clermont): The former Scotland second row played his part in the battle against Leinster, topping the tackle charts again and emphasising to Lions coach Warren Gatland that he still offers the physicality that will be needed on the Lions tour.

4 Tommy Hayes (Exeter): The leadership behind Exeter's first ever Heineken Cup win, Hayes as ever was in the thick of the action, making acquaintances with the opposition and also producing more tackles than any other player on the pitch with 11.

3 Census Johnston (Toulouse): The Samoan giant crossed over for Toulouse's fourth try to leave the losing bonus point out of reach for the Ospreys in the south of France. Part of a dominant performance from the home pack.

2 Rory Best (Ulster): When you're a hooker and make 16 tackles, how can you not make the team of the week? Best typified his side's physical dominance at Franklins Gardens on a memorable night for Ulster.

1 Cian Healy (Leinster): Another strong scrummaging performance alongside Ireland team-mate Mike Ross, Healy was not daunted by the Clermont scrum and carried well again in the loose, keeping him in contention for the Lions loosehead spot.

http://www.planet-rugby.co.za/story/0,25883,3551_8321555,00.html

Good to see the Ulstermen recognised for their performances

by Kingshu Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:16 am

I was thinking at star of season, Leinster and Clermont were the top teams in Europe and Ulster were leading the rest of the chasing pack, to be honest now I see it as Ulster have left the rest of the chasing pack and are up with Clermont and Leinster, so its now Leinster, Clermont and Ulster then they are followed but the chasing pack.

I don't think anyone would be relieved to not draw Leinster or Clermont to get Ulster instead, I think they wil want to avoid all 3 equally as much, (assuming they all get through, but you know what I mean).

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:18 am

Best is a strange one as the Ulster lineout wasn't that great. Louis Picamoles was unbelievable against the O's. Jared Payne was arguably the best back in the competetion over the weekend. Thought Clerc may have got in ahead of Vainikolo.

by SecretFly Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:24 am

If Leinster do enough next week to get back to some degree of contention then I might add them to the list of top teams this year.

At this stage they're a lame duck waiting to see if it's execution or a reprieve for a while longer. Clermont are in a healthy place and Ulster are in a fine place too. Still in charge of their own destiny and looking comfortable and confident with it. It's just a pity that two massive heavy hitters (as the game yesterday showed) had to end up in the one pool. One of them was always going to suffer.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:27 am

SecretFly wrote:If Leinster do enough next week to get back to some degree of contention then I might add them to the list of top teams this year.

At this stage they're a lame duck waiting to see if it's execution or a reprieve for a while longer. Clermont are in a healthy place and Ulster are in a fine place too. Still in charge of their own destiny and looking comfortable and confident with it. It's just a pity that two massive heavy hitters (as the game yesterday showed) had to end up in the one pool. One of them was always going to suffer.

Leinster can't be considered a lame duck realistically after yesterdays performance. I would back us in most places against most teams in a 1/4 final match when the likes of BOD, Kearney, VDM, Fitzgerald, K2 are all back and SOB, Goodman and Bent have all had more gametime.

If we make the 1/4's I think we could go on to win it. yesterday we proved that we can come within an inch of beating probably the best team in the tournament in a ground they haven't lost at in over 50 games missing some of our best players.

by Kingshu Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:28 am

On another point Best must near be a shoe-in for Lions Hooker, his performances from just before the Worldcup to now, show that he is top of his game.

Hartley was a contender, and has played well, the difference for me is not only is Best slightly better, Best doesn't have the temperment to pick up yellow cards the same way Hartley has. if it was all even between them it would be Best thats is first choice due the temperment. For Hartley to get Lions hooker spot he has to up his game to above Bests, as jsut being level will not be enough.

by SecretFly Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:36 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
SecretFly wrote:If Leinster do enough next week to get back to some degree of contention then I might add them to the list of top teams this year.

At this stage they're a lame duck waiting to see if it's execution or a reprieve for a while longer. Clermont are in a healthy place and Ulster are in a fine place too. Still in charge of their own destiny and looking comfortable and confident with it. It's just a pity that two massive heavy hitters (as the game yesterday showed) had to end up in the one pool. One of them was always going to suffer.

Leinster can't be considered a lame duck realistically after yesterdays performance. I would back us in most places against most teams in a 1/4 final match when the likes of BOD, Kearney, VDM, Fitzgerald, K2 are all back and SOB, Goodman and Bent have all had more gametime.

If we make the 1/4's I think we could go on to win it. yesterday we proved that we can come within an inch of beating probably the best team in the tournament in a ground they haven't lost at in over 50 games missing some of our best players.

Lame duck in the sense of having a LOT to do now to get to those QFs. I'm not saying they are a lame duck team, pete. I'm saying they're not in a very good place right now to be throwing their name around as one of the top three sides, far removed from the others in quality. (Kingshus point)
Maybe they are removed from the rest in quality and maybe they'll get to those QFs. I sure as hell hope so. But for now, they're the side that have to prove it still whilst the other two cruise. I just personally think Ulster and Clermont are a step above in the menace they project onto this competition this year....so far!

by Standulstermen Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:39 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
SecretFly wrote:If Leinster do enough next week to get back to some degree of contention then I might add them to the list of top teams this year.

At this stage they're a lame duck waiting to see if it's execution or a reprieve for a while longer. Clermont are in a healthy place and Ulster are in a fine place too. Still in charge of their own destiny and looking comfortable and confident with it. It's just a pity that two massive heavy hitters (as the game yesterday showed) had to end up in the one pool. One of them was always going to suffer.

Leinster can't be considered a lame duck realistically after yesterdays performance. I would back us in most places against most teams in a 1/4 final match when the likes of BOD, Kearney, VDM, Fitzgerald, K2 are all back and SOB, Goodman and Bent have all had more gametime.

If we make the 1/4's I think we could go on to win it. yesterday we proved that we can come within an inch of beating probably the best team in the tournament in a ground they haven't lost at in over 50 games missing some of our best players.

In fairness we did that last year Pete. It depends entirely on the draw. Ravenhill would hold no fear for Leinster but an away trip to Toulon or Toulouse wouldn't be ideal. Let's not rule our Biarritz for a runner up spot. They still have Connacht at home and zebre away which I believe will get them 10 points and I would expect them to beat quins at home

by **Notch** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 12:04 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Best is a strange one as the Ulster lineout wasn't that great. Louis Picamoles was unbelievable against the O's. Jared Payne was arguably the best back in the competetion over the weekend. Thought Clerc may have got in ahead of Vainikolo.

Best performance as a hooker the other night would be 6/10, his performance as a backrow would be 9/10.

As he's one man doing the work of two, that gives him a score of 15/10. Not bad!

by neilthom7 Mon 10 Dec 2012, 12:12 pm

Notch wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Best is a strange one as the Ulster lineout wasn't that great. Louis Picamoles was unbelievable against the O's. Jared Payne was arguably the best back in the competetion over the weekend. Thought Clerc may have got in ahead of Vainikolo.

Best performance as a hooker the other night would be 6/10, his performance as a backrow would be 9/10.

As he's one man doing the work of two, that gives him a score of 15/10. Not bad!

sounds reasonable to me

by B91212 Mon 10 Dec 2012, 7:56 pm

Well played Ulster, thoroughly deserved their victory and are looking a seriously top contender.

Final scoreline flattered the Saints, very disappointing. No plan B when the direct bully the opposition route didn't work (as always) and we looked like we lacked on field leadership when things were not working as hoped. Disappointing considering that Hartley, Wood & Clark are all supposedly on pitch leaders. Couldn't seem to react to how the game was refereed either, especially at the breakdown although I'm not taking away from the Ulster backrow and the continually impressive Henry in particular with that comment.

I would bring in Dickson, Myler & Burrell in the backs and Dowson and Day (Sorensen if he's not fit) into the pack for the return game but I can't see it making a significant difference, Ulster proved that they are currently miles ahead in terms of form and ability.

by trustedwomble Mon 10 Dec 2012, 8:14 pm

Dylan Hartley has been cited for striking Rory Best

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19868.php#.UMZCGIPtQ3k

Hardly a surprise. How does it affect Saints for next week if he is banned?

by **Notch** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 8:26 pm

trustedwomble wrote:Dylan Hartley has been cited for striking Rory Best

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19868.php#.UMZCGIPtQ3k

Hardly a surprise. How does it affect Saints for next week if he is banned?

Well, he is their Captain and one of their better players. I can't speak to the quality of his replacement though. I don't know anything about him.

I wasn't sure whether it would get cited or not, but now that it has its pretty clear cut. He'll get a low end ban and won't play next week. The video evidence couldn't be clearer, he strikes him multiple times. Just handbags, it could have been let go, but yeah. He'll get banned.

by MrsP Mon 10 Dec 2012, 8:34 pm

No way they could have let that go I don't think. Not with Sky showing it in slomo.

Mind you, it could actually help Hartley in the long run as he really does need to catch a grip of himself and stop the silly nonsense. Just play rugby man!

by **Notch** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 8:41 pm

Well, he's not going to get off this one for good behavior thats for sure! Smile

It's a shame we won't get to see him at Ravenhill, but it will take the sting out of their backlash a little bit. They know to win at Ravenhill they need to out scrummage us and that gets a lot harder if he's banned.

by B91212 Mon 10 Dec 2012, 8:52 pm

Although I personally didn't think it was worth a citing (handbags) he only has himself to blame and I'm actually disappointed by him. Contrary to what many others think he had generally cut a lot of the crap out in the last while. Still played on the edge but without the downright stupid but with things not going his way he reverted to his former self. Guess he deserves a ban for stupidity as much as his actual actions.

If fit Mike Haywood will replace him. Good prospect, can be a bit fiery at times but generally does the basics well. Can get a bit carried away and give needless penalties away. 3rd choice is Ross McMillan who is a squad player, solid but nothing more.

by MrsP Mon 10 Dec 2012, 9:17 pm

Folks say he is "cutting that nonsense out" but it's hard to see that when he has been cited in both of the last 2 games he has played against Irish opposition.

Does he just have a problem with Ulstermen?

by **Notch** Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:11 pm

I'd say he'll get out of his punishment. That is, he'll be banned so he doesn't have to come to Ravenhill! Smile

I'd echo your comments on the Saints MrsP- what a great club, what wonderful supporters. Still couldn't be more amused to see Hartley losing the head. Love the Saints, hate the sinner!

by HammerofThunor Mon 10 Dec 2012, 11:16 pm

MrsP wrote:Folks say he is "cutting that nonsense out" but it's hard to see that when he has been cited in both of the last 2 games he has played against Irish opposition.

Does he just have a problem with Ulstermen?

How many times has he been cited in total recently? Those two are the only ones that stand out to me.

Perhaps Ulstermen are being really dirty and underhand where they can get away with it (e.g. in scrum/bottom of rucks) and he allowed himself to wound up.

Just saying like...

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