Nadal missing AO'13, now not coming back until MC'13?

...or maybe the South American swing in late February before that (Acapulco 500 from Feb 25th which he said he was going to play...)
It was only 2 days ago he was saying he looks forward to coming back but doesnt expect to win AO13, now he says he's not even going to enter it...what's changed?
Being realistic about coming back on HC not being the best idea to test his knee....if thats the case I'm all in support of him returning back on clay.
Either way, this is becoming a huge amount of time out of the tour...it'll be 3 majors missed (if the Wimb loss is attributed to him not being right)...plus he'll be missing IW and Miami HC Masters.
Wonder what his ranking would be if he missed everything until MC....he'd have 4500-ish pts I guess (1000+1000+500+2000+Madrid)...that would still keep him top 6.

http://zeenews.india.com/sports/tennis/rafael-nadal-says-he-is-unlikely-to-make-australian-open-return_752697.html

But is this even true, there seem to be conflicting reports circulating around...is he or isnt he...you never quite know with Team Nadal!

Yeah, definitely conflicting reports flying about lydian. Good find though. Google translate gives this from Nadal's recently updated Facebook (I know, I know):

'I've seen that they have left mine collected statements incorrectly with respect my calendar. I am preparing me for initially anticipated tournaments of Acapulco, Melbourne, Doha and Abu Dhabi to start the year. For now it is what I have in mind.'

So...who knows? I do wonder what kind of shape he'll be in. Being fit and practicing on court is very different to being match sharp. I hope he makes the sensible decision, whatever that turns out to be. Though part of me doesn't want to see a horrifically unbalanced AO draw due to his withdrawal, I very much want him to only come back if he's sure.

Is there a new interview Lydian, because my initial reaction was that the translation about the AO was ambiguous - did he mean he was unlikely to be there, or that he is unlikely to be able to compete to win because he will only just be returning to the tour? The latter seemed the most obvious correct interpretation in the article I read because otherwise he would have been contradicting himself in the same interview, saying at first that he was planning to be back so very unlikely to renege in the next breath.

I do, however, think that he may not simply because there is a lot of 'hoping' when he is interviewed and lately that has meant - I'm not going to commit myself to not being there, just yet!

Hate to say I told you so But I did.. he has been deliberately ambiguous for the last 5/6 weeks.. Uncle Toni and the press were making statements to the contrary but I think I said ¨"I will believe it when he says he will be there and not until"
Even though people still believe there is a slim chance I dont.. and frankly Im glad. He is definitely aiming to return on clay. I would put money on it. I promise to eat my mantilla if Im wrong ole

He's playing but just playing down expectations of being competitive.

We´ll see

Have been reading around this a little more...seems the translations of his Spanish interviews are creating ambiguity. I read some Spanish speakers saying that in his last interview he doesnt say he'll be missing AO...just that his expectations are realistic/low, but he aims to be fully motoring by Monte Carlo. I read that as he wont be flogging himself through the HCs, but will pick up the pace on clay. Nothing earth shattering there then...

What will be interesting to see when he emerges is his serve...he'll have had a long time to start remodelling it, in particular the pre-trophy phase he suffers with, to make it a much more potent weapon, which he needs to do if he's to make points shorter.

Well AMBIGUITY is a Spanish trait Lydian as you well know. Rafa is well aware what his fans want to hear.. I really cannot see the point of him playing in a GS when he himself admits that he does not expect to do well. He obviously is unsure of how his knees will hold up and the bottom line is "when in doubt do nought" Why take the risk ?? he has nothing to prove.- His critics will have a field day if he falls at the first hurdle. I daresay I shall have my words pushed down by throat by certain posters but Im still sticking with my gut instinct. He wont play. (so wait for the nah nah na nah nahs wont you)

Indeed I do HN and I'll be experienced more this weekend when I visit your neck o' the woods

He'll only enter if 100% certain he wont damage his knees again...I suspect he'll find some slight concern to not enter...5 set matches on HC in January over 14 days isnt what he probably needs after 6 mths out with knee problems. I also believe he'll start with the clay swing in South/Central America but I wouldnt be surprised if he turns up in Melbourne either...you just never know with the Nadals!

I'd like to see Rafa play Acapulco (as planned) and Barcelona again as 500s. Perhaps he'll get very agressive with schedule management by skipping hard courts such as Miami, Cinci, Paris and Shanghai. I dont know how specifically he can "skip" as ATP have rules for 1000 entry but where there;s a will there's a way. From 2008-2011, these four tournaments only mean about 900 points to him (based on annual median) over each year. He can gain that from Acapulco/Brazil/Argentina and save a lot of travel plus HC wear and tear.

It wont happen though.

Ahh so you are coming to Sunny Spain.. Im sure your folks have told you we have a bitterly cold wind doing the rounds at the moment.. in the sunshine it is perfecto .. but chilly for me at the moment. Have a good time anyway Dont forget to visit the new La Zenia Boulevard... now there is a shopping mall of the 21st Century.

Well you are on the same waivelength as me Lydian.. if I could see the benefits of him attempting the AO I would be more incliined to say Im just being pessimistic but I cant, and I dont think he can either.. (and dont lets forget he might not have got the all clear from his 6mths silent ban yet anyway are you lurking NITB??. but your right take what the Nadals say (most definitely Toni) with one large pinch of salt.

I think this is a clear indication that Nadal is going to miss many HC events for remainder of his career. To me, it appears he must be on some strong medical advice to miss out as many HC events as possible, whereas the PR machine for me seems way too optimistic about his chances on playing HC events.

I would however (with all due respect to Toni) in future much rather hear from the horses mouth rather than the horses arss!

lydian wrote:Have been reading around this a little more...seems the translations of his Spanish interviews are creating ambiguity. I read some Spanish speakers saying that in his last interview he doesnt say he'll be missing AO...just that his expectations are realistic/low, but he aims to be fully motoring by Monte Carlo. I read that as he wont be flogging himself through the HCs, but will pick up the pace on clay. Nothing earth shattering there then...

What will be interesting to see when he emerges is his serve...he'll have had a long time to start remodelling it, in particular the pre-trophy phase he suffers with, to make it a much more potent weapon, which he needs to do if he's to make points shorter.

Do you think he'll have had the time to stop messing around and boring us all stiff with his rituals pre-serving, so we can get on with the game?

LK

I wholeheartedly agree... Toni has been Rafa´s mouthpiece since Rafa was a boy and he cannot get out of the habit methinks. I know Rafa is aware of that fact and I think the way he deals with it is "say what YOU please Toni and I will do what I want." He is too courteous by half to his Uncle sometimes but I do think that Rafa is in control of what he wants to do. Toni (as it has been said by his father)is and always has been the most difficult of his sons.

bogbrush wrote:

lydian wrote:Have been reading around this a little more...seems the translations of his Spanish interviews are creating ambiguity. I read some Spanish speakers saying that in his last interview he doesnt say he'll be missing AO...just that his expectations are realistic/low, but he aims to be fully motoring by Monte Carlo. I read that as he wont be flogging himself through the HCs, but will pick up the pace on clay. Nothing earth shattering there then...

What will be interesting to see when he emerges is his serve...he'll have had a long time to start remodelling it, in particular the pre-trophy phase he suffers with, to make it a much more potent weapon, which he needs to do if he's to make points shorter.

Do you think he'll have had the time to stop messing around and boring us all stiff with his rituals pre-serving, so we can get on with the game?

You can always go out and do one of your lengthy gardening jobs BB

Doubt it BB...hard to override a lifetime's habit!

La Zenia hey HN...love that area, had a fair number of picnics around there. Will see if we can check it out...gotta to be better than that large Sunday Market they have every week near Quesada Cuidad thats full of Andes pipes players!

Yep, agree with LK/HN...Toni seems to think he's Rafa's spokesman...must drive Rafa up the wall at times. I also agree he'll skip as many HC as he can get away with...no point thrashing yourself on surfaces you dont tend to get many points from. Just preserve effort for AO and USO

In fairness lydian I do wonder if his knees can take the rigours of a BO5 match on the HC anymore. I think the US HC season may well no longer feature in his plans. The AO and Miami at a push for me would be limits in which he could play purely because of the court speeds.

I think the fact he has been out so long to me suggests that life in the old dog is starting to fade.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

lydian wrote:Have been reading around this a little more...seems the translations of his Spanish interviews are creating ambiguity. I read some Spanish speakers saying that in his last interview he doesnt say he'll be missing AO...just that his expectations are realistic/low, but he aims to be fully motoring by Monte Carlo. I read that as he wont be flogging himself through the HCs, but will pick up the pace on clay. Nothing earth shattering there then...

What will be interesting to see when he emerges is his serve...he'll have had a long time to start remodelling it, in particular the pre-trophy phase he suffers with, to make it a much more potent weapon, which he needs to do if he's to make points shorter.

Do you think he'll have had the time to stop messing around and boring us all stiff with his rituals pre-serving, so we can get on with the game?

You can always go out and do one of your lengthy gardening jobs BB

Yeah, just a pity that I'd like to watch the tennis, played - you know - within the rules.

Silly old me.

bogbrush wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

lydian wrote:Have been reading around this a little more...seems the translations of his Spanish interviews are creating ambiguity. I read some Spanish speakers saying that in his last interview he doesnt say he'll be missing AO...just that his expectations are realistic/low, but he aims to be fully motoring by Monte Carlo. I read that as he wont be flogging himself through the HCs, but will pick up the pace on clay. Nothing earth shattering there then...

What will be interesting to see when he emerges is his serve...he'll have had a long time to start remodelling it, in particular the pre-trophy phase he suffers with, to make it a much more potent weapon, which he needs to do if he's to make points shorter.

Do you think he'll have had the time to stop messing around and boring us all stiff with his rituals pre-serving, so we can get on with the game?

You can always go out and do one of your lengthy gardening jobs BB

Yeah, just a pity that I'd like to watch the tennis, played - you know - within the rules.

Silly old me.

Mind you Paes and Stepanek took some beating in the recent WTF. Think they took 6 minutes between one point!

bogbrush wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

lydian wrote:Have been reading around this a little more...seems the translations of his Spanish interviews are creating ambiguity. I read some Spanish speakers saying that in his last interview he doesnt say he'll be missing AO...just that his expectations are realistic/low, but he aims to be fully motoring by Monte Carlo. I read that as he wont be flogging himself through the HCs, but will pick up the pace on clay. Nothing earth shattering there then...

What will be interesting to see when he emerges is his serve...he'll have had a long time to start remodelling it, in particular the pre-trophy phase he suffers with, to make it a much more potent weapon, which he needs to do if he's to make points shorter.

Do you think he'll have had the time to stop messing around and boring us all stiff with his rituals pre-serving, so we can get on with the game?

You can always go out and do one of your lengthy gardening jobs BB

Yeah, just a pity that I'd like to watch the tennis, played - you know - within the rules.

Silly old me.

Do you know BB I could not agree more... thats what I keep saying about Djokovic, DelPotro and even our dear Andy is having a go now. And of course then you have those who change rackets at inappropriate times, call a challenge when you know there isnt one... need I go on.. Now Ive said that I think Ill probably spend my time in the garden as well.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/news/story?id=2955743

I think this article sums it up BB... NOT for just one player but for All

An all or nothing as regards Gamesmanship .. its all in the hands of the Umpire.
Its an old chestnut .. and about time it was put to bed

It's a toss-up as to what is more boring - watching the guy play or hearing about the endless tedious will-he won't-he stuff emanating from him and his camp.

@h-n: Gamesmanship is no more in the hands of the umpire than my desire to murder someone is in the hands of the police. It's Nadal's responsibility to play fair and the fact that he doesn't take that sufficiently seriously is one of the reasons why I don't like him as a player.

barrystar wrote:It's a toss-up as to what is more boring - watching the guy play or hearing about the endless tedious will-he won't-he stuff emanating from him and his camp.

@h-n: Gamesmanship is no more in the hands of the umpire than my desire to murder someone is in the hands of the police. It's Nadal's responsibility to play fair and the fact that he doesn't take that sufficiently seriously is one of the reasons why I don't like him as a player.

barry that is total bovine fertilizer .. honestly.!! I have named other players who are guilty of gamesmanship... there will always be players guilty of gamesmanship. Of course its in the hands of the umpire.. any player can be penalised .. but until you make one rule for everyone you will always have this problem. And I suggest you need no excuse to dislike Nadal. because if he never put a foot wrong you would still dislike him- I dont like Federer for reasons I will not even bother to list here ... because no one is allowed to dislike Federer he is as squeeky clean as Mother Theresa

mother teresa was far from squeeky clean!

Well that illlustrates my point even better

Haddie-nuff wrote:because no one is allowed to dislike Federer he is as squeeky clean as Mother Theresa

Definitely not true...on both counts! There are reasons to dislike Federer, same as there are Nadal. I think they're both brilliant, in their own ways. Fair play to you though, H-n.

Going back to lydian's point about Nadal's serve - what could he do to alter things and get some snap into the serve? Does he not drive his body enough into it? I thought he'd kick on and keep the newfound pace after the USO 2010, but it never happened.

Haddie-Nuff wrote:I dont like Federer for reasons I will not even bother to list here ... because no one is allowed to dislike Federer he is as squeeky clean as Mother Theresa

I think that is an over reaction Haddie - you're very unlikely to get anyone jumping down your throat over here if you don't like Fed - they may disagree with you but that is a different thing altogether.

Back on topic - just read a translation on Nadal's facebook entry with him stating that he has seen some misrepresentations of which tournaments he is or isn't going to play (this didn't seem to be a swipe at Uncle but rather correcting various recent internet rumours), but that the considerations are for Abu Dhabi, Doha, Melbourne and Acapulco to start the year - so it sounds as if AO is on. Presumably you speak pretty good Spanish Haddie, so would considerations in this instance be formal Spanish or is the original Spanish loaded with ambiguity as the English translation? I am inclined to agree with you, that I will believe it when he is there.

Hey ho Silver

tp

My Spanish is not particularly brilliant but then I live in the Catalan region of Spain
Rafa comes from the Ballearics which I understand from most Spaniards I know is "terrible Spanish" its the difference between North & South when you liken it to UK.
The Spaniards have one underlying trait and that is not to tell you the whole truth... they do not consider it lying you understand they consider it as "humouring you" they want you to be happy. Convince them you cannot that the Brits like it straight .. yes or no.. they say they will deliver something to you on Monday... but they dont say which Monday... do you get my drift.
So as you say tp.

Believe it when you see it is my advice

Haddie-nuff wrote:barry that is total bovine fertilizer .. honestly.!! I have named other players who are guilty of gamesmanship... there will always be players guilty of gamesmanship. Of course its in the hands of the umpire.. any player can be penalised .. but until you make one rule for everyone you will always have this problem. And I suggest you need no excuse to dislike Nadal. because if he never put a foot wrong you would still dislike him- I dont like Federer for reasons I will not even bother to list here ... because no one is allowed to dislike Federer he is as squeeky clean as Mother Theresa

You can like who you want for whatever reason. Federer plays fairer than most but he has his moments of petulance and his moments of gamesmanship and I don't like it when that happens, it reflects badly on him and I'm happy to call it; I don't think it's for the Umpire to stop him cheating when he does it, but for him to take responsibility for his own acts and to reign himself in.

The difference between that attitude and yours is seemingly that you like a player for whom gamesmanship and cheating is an essential plank of his gameplan and the way he conducts himself on Court. You have decided that the easist way to be consistent about this sort of cheating is to say that all players do it and when they do it's someone else's responsibility to stop it. I think that is at best an amoral stance, but it's a free world.

My consistency is to dislike cheating wherever I see it with the result that I dislike those players who do it consistently compared to those that don't.

As you point out, I like Federer as a player despite his faults and am happy to call him out on them when they happen. It's not too often, but it happens and he shouldn't do it - I particularly don't like it when he makes a challenge which he must surely know is doomed to fail.

The difference between that attitude and yours is seemingly that you like a player for whom gamesmanship and cheating is an essential plank of his gameplan and the way he conducts himself on Court. You have decided that the easist way to be consistent about this sort of cheating is to say that all players do it and when they do it's someone else's responsibility to stop it. I think that is at best an amoral stance, but it's a free world.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Barry I think that a very unfair comment.. in particular because you then go on to say that you like Federer despite his faults... duplicity me thinks.

No I do not like Rafa´s time wasting.. but I think it unfair to single Rafa out as being the only culprit of doing so. Ive already listed others and you yourself confess to Federer and his gamesmanship re challenges so I think you are somewhat contradicting yourself. WHAT I AM SAYING IS... that this is a problem that has rumbled on for months and years and needs the officials to get to grips with. You seem oblivious to the fact that Djoko bounces the ball as many as 20 times... Delpotro was warned at the USO and now Andy Murray is pushing his limits. Lets get to grips with it for once and for all FOR ALL PLAYERS... not just Rafa. Who in spite of the fact that I do not like some of his on court behaviour. I will discount his tic (that is a problem not intended ). I like his tennis and will not get upset at any criticism made of him on that account. But you seem to let such irritating behaviour overshadow this man´s talent, ability and achievements and thats what irks me about Nadal detractors.

How do you define a cheat... to me a cheat is someone who is doing something improper/illegal without the knowledge of an official, oponent, or bystander... What Rafa does is on show for all to see, the umpire, the APT his oponent and you and me... how is that cheating...Its up to those like the APT and the Umpire to enforce the rules.Not for everyone else to keep bliddy winging about it.

I understand Haddie - it fits in with the elaborate courtesy of Nadal in the press room.

I am very sympathetic to barry's point because I find Rafa in person totally disarming and very charming but that is in direct contrast to the player on court. While I admire his warrior attitude, (but then I admire the same in Fed who is as much a fighter, albeit in less extrovert way) I find some of the gamesmanship just puts me off watching him play altogether. Fed does do it too, and is usually widely criticised for it as he was in Shanghai during the 'monsoon' against Murray - he doesn't get criticised as much as Nadal does because he indulges in this kind of disruption far, far, far less often,hardly ever in fact - that's all. Certainly if TMF were to begin to conduct himself like this regularly in his matches, it would considerably tarnish his victories for me.

I think it irritates less when it is a young upstart refusing to be intimidated by a legend and happy to play a few mind games, but some of the behaviour we have seen this year is unworthy of a former No 1, particularly when it is used against a much lower ranked player, and the reason Nadal isn't called on it nearly enough is because he is so charming post match - very Spanish probably after reading your post, saying what we want to hear

One of the dictionary definitions of cheat as a verb is: 'to violate rules and regulations'

It is totally the players' responsibility to conduct themselves well and play by the rules. The Umpire should enforce the rules but he is not responsible for the cheating only the player 'getting away with it' - two different issues.

If a teacher suspects that a mother is the author of a pupil's GCSE coursework but submits it anyway does that mean that neither mother or child is guilty of 'cheating'?

Nadal has OCD. It's an officially recognised disability.

Of course I think action should be taken it anyway (the rules are rules, irrelevant of disabilities) and should be enforced regardless

I've got news for you amritia -probably all top sportsmen and all artists have something akin to OCD - it is the obsessional compulsiveness which allows them to dedicate hours and hours every day to, sometimes quite lonely, practice and which makes it possible for them to shun some of the distractions that lure other children and teenagers and adults away from such single minded pursuit/ambition.

Hi Time Please, good to see you here

time please wrote:I've got news for you amritia -probably all top sportsmen and all artists have something akin to OCD - it is the obsessional compulsiveness which allows them to dedicate hours and hours every day to, sometimes quite lonely, practice and which makes it possible for them to shun some of the distractions that lure other children and teenagers and adults away from such single minded pursuit/ambition.

Nah, that's not OCD really.
That's drive and determination, different from obsessive compulsive disorder.

time please wrote:One of the dictionary definitions of cheat as a verb is: 'to violate rules and regulations'

It is totally the players' responsibility to conduct themselves well and play by the rules. The Umpire should enforce the rules but he is not responsible for the cheating only the player 'getting away with it' - two different issues.

If a teacher suspects that a mother is the author of a pupil's GCSE coursework but submits it anyway does that mean that neither mother or child is guilty of 'cheating'?

So you might as well say that we do not need a Referee on a football field.. its up to the players to conduct themselves properly and within the rules and not try "getting away with it" try telling that to Maradonna (and speaking of cheats !!!) What is the point of having an Umpire or an Official in any sport if they do not enforce the rules..
So you believe that when Federer challenges a call when he knows full well that the ball was in/out and does so just to disrupt the rhythm of his oponent is not cheating.... well now isn´t that interesting because I call that gamesmanship performed at the "highest level" But of course his name is not Nadal

Btw, before anyone gets angry... I am not saying the rules should not be enforced on Nadal.
Read my post at 5:07 PM

Silver, one of Nadal basic problems is his swing at the start of the serve, probably because he's serving with an "unnatural" throwing arm, i.e. his left arm.

When he separates the ball from his racket on the downward swing his racquet goes out so that it points to the back fence...it shouldnt do that, it should come around and end up scracthing his back - this is called the trophy position or Nike swoosh...from there you acclerate into the ball. A tightly packed trophy position is like a coiled spring...uncoiling it towards the ball is where all the speed/power comes from. Nadal loses critical stored energy in this position because his racquet arm hangs more loosely than it should...he changed it successfully for USO10 but it caused him shoulder issues as he wasnt used to the new motion long enough, so he went back to his old serve...there are videos on-line of him being instructed in private coaching about the thing I'm talking about...I'll see if I can dig it out. But its a very hard thing to change because your serving action once set requires massive willpower and practice to modify...not many pro's have done it...only 2 really comes to mind...Chang and Ferrero (who completely remodelled his serve at age 19).

It Must Be Love wrote:Btw, before anyone gets angry... I am not saying the rules should not be enforced on Nadal.
Read my post at 5:07 PM

Exactly and neither am I BUT NOT JUST NADAL... why is no one saying Djokovic cheats .. I counted 21 bounces of the ball when he has played... Delpo who ambles around the back of the court as though he has all day... and please time Murray the next time he plays ANSWER THIS PLEASE.... why are Nadal´s oponents not complaining to the officials... ???? I would suggest that they are not so bothered about it as some posters are.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

time please wrote:One of the dictionary definitions of cheat as a verb is: 'to violate rules and regulations'

It is totally the players' responsibility to conduct themselves well and play by the rules. The Umpire should enforce the rules but he is not responsible for the cheating only the player 'getting away with it' - two different issues.

If a teacher suspects that a mother is the author of a pupil's GCSE coursework but submits it anyway does that mean that neither mother or child is guilty of 'cheating'?

So you might as well say that we do not need a Referee on a football field.. its up to the players to conduct themselves properly and within the rules and not try "getting away with it" try telling that to Maradonna (and speaking of cheats !!!) What is the point of having an Umpire or an Official in any sport if they do not enforce the rules..

No.

I think players should have a responsibility, especially top players. If referees aren't doing their job then they should be questioned too.
However, and I can repeat this: A lack of action from the umpire does not and should not absorb the blame for the player.

Nevertheless there is a difference between intentionally cheating, and not.
Both are breaking the rules though.
Suppose you are playing a game 'copy the sentence.'
You have to exactly copy the sentence, if you can't then you break the rules.
If a dyslexic person breaks the rule, can that be seen as cheating?
I think yes, but we shouldn't attack the dyslexic guy for it.

I have got myself embroiled in this discussion since the death of the dodo.. and frankly I see no mileage in it for me because nobody can come up with a satisfactory solution. I am a diehard Nadal fan and make no bones about it but I will not stand by and see him condemed for what other players get away with.
Murray was receiving on court coaching from his mother for as long as I can remember, so is Djoko always being coached by his team and Verdasco at the semi´finals in AO against Rafa it was blatant... but only Rafa gets fined...
Well that says it all for me. Ill leave you with it folks Im off for my dinner

Interesting video for anyone into tennis technique, it also explains Nadal serve and what changed,,,and still needs to improve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GljqJv84tTI

1. Look at how fast he can throw with his left hand at 4:25 secs !!!
2. Notice at 5:30 how the coach is pointing his arm outwards indicating where Nadal is going wrong...with Rafa and Toni sat watching.
3. He then goes on to explain the proper wrist angle, etc.
4. At 6:55 onwards you can see him indicating its should be "trophy" not point to the back of the court as Nadal does

lydian wrote:Silver, one of Nadal basic problems is his swing at the start of the serve, probably because he's serving with an "unnatural" throwing arm, i.e. his left arm.

When he separates the ball from his racket on the downward swing his racquet goes out so that it points to the back fence...it shouldnt do that, it should come around and end up scracthing his back - this is called the trophy position or Nike swoosh...from there you acclerate into the ball. A tightly packed trophy position is like a coiled spring...uncoiling it towards the ball is where all the speed/power comes from. Nadal loses critical stored energy in this position because his racquet arm hangs more loosely than it should...he changed it successfully for USO10 but it caused him shoulder issues as he wasnt used to the new motion long enough, so he went back to his old serve...there are videos on-line of him being instructed in private coaching about the thing I'm talking about...I'll see if I can dig it out. But its a very hard thing to change because your serving action once set requires massive willpower and practice to modify...not many pro's have done it...only 2 really comes to mind...Chang and Ferrero (who completely remodelled his serve at age 19).

Fascinating. I always assumed it was something to do with the toss, as it appeared quite low to me and the arm motion seemed somewhat more forced than with others. I've just had a look at his motion again and you're right, I never noticed the racket position being so out of kilter. I play regularly myself so I know about the trophy position and the snap it gifts; I wonder whether he's thought about remodeling it during his absence from the tour, and who would've suggested it if so? Perhaps it might be easier for Rafa to alter things, at least in comparison to other players, as his default serving action is very much an artificial construct, as you said. So he'd be replacing like for like. Even then though, you'd suspect that plenty of things could be dreadfully wrong and although it's hardly the foundation of his game compared to some, any reduction in speed or consistency would cost him on hard courts in particular. I seem to remember Djokovic having a similar issue with his motion, and eventually going back to his old one. Never knew about Ferrero, wow!

Cheers mate, very informative

Edit: Nice video. I'm seeing a difference in the way he positions and moves his feet too, lydian. What d'you reckon?

Haddie-nuff wrote:

time please wrote:One of the dictionary definitions of cheat as a verb is: 'to violate rules and regulations'

It is totally the players' responsibility to conduct themselves well and play by the rules. The Umpire should enforce the rules but he is not responsible for the cheating only the player 'getting away with it' - two different issues.

If a teacher suspects that a mother is the author of a pupil's GCSE coursework but submits it anyway does that mean that neither mother or child is guilty of 'cheating'?

So you might as well say that we do not need a Referee on a football field.. its up to the players to conduct themselves properly and within the rules and not try "getting away with it" try telling that to Maradonna (and speaking of cheats !!!) What is the point of having an Umpire or an Official in any sport if they do not enforce the rules..
So you believe that when Federer challenges a call when he knows full well that the ball was in/out and does so just to disrupt the rhythm of his oponent is not cheating.... well now isn´t that interesting because I call that gamesmanship performed at the "highest level" But of course his name is not Nadal

That is a million miles away from what I was saying Haddie and I suspect you know it! Of course we need umpires/referees but the onus still falls on the players.

Re Fed's challenges - sometimes I suspect they are decidedly tactical as all players calls are. The reason that challenges by whomever don't irk so much as other disruptive methods, is that a player can only 'disrupt' 3 times per set if they are calling to break rhythm when they know full well the ball is out - so the disruption is effectively much better managed by the rules in play than other disruptions are. They are also, whoever challenges whether they are called Federer or Nadal, harder to identify as disruptions as long as they are done promptly and not a la Delpo after looking at coach, umpire, line, back again, scratch head, turn around and then challenge. In other words, done promptly the player is playing within the rules .

As you say in your last sentence, it may be 'gamesmanship performed at the highest level' - (though I seriously doubt Fed is that good!) but it is not cheating - the rules allow it.

Cheers Silver. Yes he's abit better balanced now - his feet arent as far apart as they used to be and his front foot is pointing more sideways so he gets better rotation, plus the weight transferance to the front foot is much better rather than the flat-footed platform he used to have.

If you compare his serve now to 6-7 years ago it is much much better. But it can still improve. The problem is that I suspect he wasnt properly coached on it in the first place, they probably just focused on his groundstrokes and movement.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I have got myself embroiled in this discussion since the death of the dodo...

The dodo is dead??
That's ruined my Christmas
I was going to have one instead of turkey.

Djoko's endless bouncing is cheating as well. The 20/25 second rule was brought in because of a guy who used to bounce the ball for a minute or so. At least Rafa bounces ball, puts hair behind ears, picks @rse - a little more variety in there.

JM if you are having that dodo for Christmas do me a favour and make sure its well and truly STUFFED