Nadal missing AO'13, now not coming back until MC'13?

First topic message reminder :

...or maybe the South American swing in late February before that (Acapulco 500 from Feb 25th which he said he was going to play...)
It was only 2 days ago he was saying he looks forward to coming back but doesnt expect to win AO13, now he says he's not even going to enter it...what's changed?
Being realistic about coming back on HC not being the best idea to test his knee....if thats the case I'm all in support of him returning back on clay.
Either way, this is becoming a huge amount of time out of the tour...it'll be 3 majors missed (if the Wimb loss is attributed to him not being right)...plus he'll be missing IW and Miami HC Masters.
Wonder what his ranking would be if he missed everything until MC....he'd have 4500-ish pts I guess (1000+1000+500+2000+Madrid)...that would still keep him top 6.

http://zeenews.india.com/sports/tennis/rafael-nadal-says-he-is-unlikely-to-make-australian-open-return_752697.html

But is this even true, there seem to be conflicting reports circulating around...is he or isnt he...you never quite know with Team Nadal!

LuvSports! wrote:i wonder what other players have had quite long injury breaks and have come back to be back in the big time.
I think Agassi dropped to outside the top 100 with his wrist injury, drug problems and lack of motivation in 1997 and by the next year rose to no5 or something.
any other examples?

I don't think there are too many examples of the number one player in the race, holder of 11 slam titles, winner of the last slam, aged 26 being sidelined because of injury for 6 months. Nadal is one of a kind. We shall have to wait and see what what happens as history can't give us any clues.

HE

This is not ALL about his physical ability on his return. Not all about his knees-
Its about his mental strength which we all know is an enormous factor in Rafa´s game.. he has been playing Poker in order to keep his mind focussed. It must be incredibly difficult to have 6mths off the tour, let alone off court, to remain focussed and in this alone it is going to be one helluva challenge for him. He speaks of playing Abu Dhabi if he does I think the decision regarding AO will rest on that.

Incidentally Im not ARGUING with you HE .. Stop pre-emptying what I say.. I just have a different opinion.
Is that allowed ??

Haddie

The "arguing" accusation wasn't about this topic but about your attempt to change it to another where you have made it plain you disagree with me. Maybe I'm a little sensitive but that felt like an attempt to draw me into an argument for arguments sake rather than an exchange of opinions.

I am always interested in your OPINION on Nadal or indeed any other topic.

I don't think there are too many examples of the number one player in the race, holder of 11 slam titles, winner of the last slam, aged 26 being sidelined because of injury for 6 months. Nadal is one of a kind. We shall have to wait and see what what happens as history can't give us any clues.

another great comment HE.... obviously i meant any similar top players

You say nadal was the best in the first half of 2012? Obviously because of clay.
beaten by monfils in doha (meh who cares) He had a good tourney at aus, outplayed by feds at IW's, "injured" at miami (where he didn't play well) and then went on a tear on clay, bar madrid.

But wasn't as consistent across all surfaces as novak and feds were.

OK HE Truce : Lets pass on.. We both wish him well.

Lets hope we soon be discussing his tennis. We want him back

Of course Haddie

Luv sports. But there are no similar players in similar circumstances.

Novak and Federer were hardly consistent across all surfaces!

Novak was beaten by Rafa in three straight finals on clay, soundly beaten by Federer on grass and beaten by Murray on hard. They are just the important ones (meh who cares about the others)

Roger was beaten at his best by Rafa on hard, outplayed on clay by Djokovic and even had a loss to Murray on grass (meh who cares about the others)

I'm not trying to pull either Novak or Roger down but merely put their seasons in perspective compared with the season that Rafa played.

I wonder if the impulse to litter a tennis forum with tons of nonsensical posts, can be linked to a form of OCD. Any informed opinions?

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:I wonder if the impulse to litter a tennis forum with tons of nonsensical posts, can be linked to a form of OCD. Any informed opinions?

If we ever get tons of nonsensical posts on this forum , I'll let you know my opinion.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:I wonder if the impulse to litter a tennis forum with tons of nonsensical posts, can be linked to a form of OCD. Any informed opinions?

If we ever get tons of nonsensical posts on this forum , I'll let you know my opinion.

:

well, you can always air your view in more "general terms"

JK We await your valuable contribution which doubtless. is knowledgeable and informative.. Fire away the floor is yours

@ Haddycoco: apologies, as regards to the OCD debate, that was my very best shot. Hope to do better next!

hawkeye wrote:Of course Haddie

Luv sports. But there are no similar players in similar circumstances.

Novak and Federer were hardly consistent across all surfaces!

Novak was beaten by Rafa in three straight finals on clay, soundly beaten by Federer on grass and beaten by Murray on hard. They are just the important ones (meh who cares about the others)

Roger was beaten at his best by Rafa on hard, outplayed on clay by Djokovic and even had a loss to Murray on grass (meh who cares about the others)

I'm not trying to pull either Novak or Roger down but merely put their seasons in perspective compared with the season that Rafa played.

If reaching multiple finals and going deep in slams isn't consistent, then i don't know what is, come on hawkeye wake up eh!

Rafa was consistent on one surface and not as consistent on the others, face the facts!

Nadal was consistent in early 2012.

AO: Final
IW: Semi
Miami: Semi (injured)
And then super clay season.

Infact I would say all top 5 when fully fit are very consistent these days.

lydian wrote:Doubt it BB...hard to override a lifetime's habit!

I do not buy this. Give him a referee that penalizes him every time he goes over and I bet you he will shake the habit well before midway throught the first set of his first match.

Agreed .... and let the same penalty be given to Djokovic especially when they are playing each other...!!!!!!!

Haddie-nuff wrote:No I do not like Rafa´s time wasting.. but I think it unfair to single Rafa out as being the only culprit of doing so.

I do not think Rafa is entirely singled out, people do mention other players too. I think Rafa gets more frequent mention mostly for two reasons:

First, Roger and he are by far the two most popular players, so people focus on them. Djoko has maybe five fans worldwide and everyone else does not care about him one way or another - so of course he gets mentioned less.

Second, in Rafa's case there is a bigger difference between his on-court and off-court behavior than with most other players, so it stands out more that way too.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Agreed .... and let the same penalty be given to Djokovic especially when they are playing each other...!!!!!!!

Just saw this. But of course. I do not think anyone is suggesting refs should be chasing Rafa only.

http://www.10sballs.com/2012/12/07/rafael-nadal-training-so-as-to-play-abu-dhabi/

I also read an article on the net, which I can't find now, that quotes the tournament director of the AO saying that he has Nadal's word that he will be playing.

Sure that Rafa must have just been playing down expectations of a victorious return straight away.

I have to say I am in HE's camp re Nadal - I understand what you are saying re building confidence Haddie, but I have felt (and I may be wrong because I am not a seasoned Nadal watcher and fan) that he has seemed a little disenchanted with the tour and with tennis over the last 18 months, and I am convinced that he would not be signalling that he is returning unless he truly believes that he can still scoop the major trophies this year. He may not be bothered about falling to 15 as he suggests, but I don't think he is coming back for any runner-up trophies.

Seems to me this is just a bit of a mis-translation. It has been reported elsewhere that he intends to play in Australia but doesn't necessarily expect to be competitive. He's obviously and understandably trying to remove any pressure.

It's a poor defence of Nadal's cheating to say other players also do it. No one is saying that others should be allowed to break the rules. They should all be punished when they go over time. Nadal is probably the one whomwouldmbe most affected by an actual enforcement of the rules though.

summerblues wrote: I do not think anyone is suggesting refs should be chasing Rafa only.

Ha ha ha! You don't get out much do you? Rafa "stole" a lot of trophies from Federer and also beat a few other players. He hasn't really made himself popular in some circles. If the refs could somehow be persuaded to give him point penalties every time he lined up his water bottles neatly then the world would be a better place...

Why is it a poor defence.. How would you feel if a copper kept knocking at your door telling you that your car was an obstruction when there were others in the street doing the same but never got reprimanded for it... Do you not see any injustice there ??? Id put money on it that you would.... NO TWO WRONGS do not make a right... but for JC sake change the and give the bloke a break. When there is nothing else to say about NADAL "OH yes lets bring up the time issue again thats always good for a hearty old debate "

Y A W N
Id be happy to see him back on court and back to form and so would you if you are a tennis fan that really should be more of a concern

While I don't wish to sound like a broken record haddie, there are two reasons (maybe 3) why the persistent bending of rules will always be brought up when discussing Nadal.

1) you say he is the only player that is singled out this way, which is patently not so. In fact the umpires are usually very hot on this matter when not dealing with a marquee name - I'm thinking particularly poor Marin Cilic penalised while serving while facing break point playing Federer in the US Open 2011 - if he was over the time it wasn't immediately noticeable to the audience and it was certainly without blatant delaying tactics. He received a warning, was rattled and lost the point and his serve. Sad for him - nevertheless he had broken a rule, much the same as being off-side in football, and the umpire took the correct decision - the sad thing is, that we all know it probably wouldn't have happened if it had been Fed instead. In fact I think I am correct in saying that the same umpire officiated at a Nadal match at the same tournament and took no such action.

2) I have missed seeing a great competitor, but I have not missed the sly gamesmanship of the Nadal camp one iota - you talk about Murray taking time and yet he never did so, was in fact immaculate in on-court etiquette in this regard, but he has obiviously been advised by Lendl to play a few mind games back, as has Fed with Annacone. I think we will see more and more young players coached to disregard the rules - so it is a little pointless having them. I agree Djokovic is bad - he has made some attempt to limit the ball bouncing a lot of the time apart from against Nadal - but that might change if courtesy was extended the other way, who knows?

3) Also, because those Nadal fans who are not Fed ones always cite Nadal as being the true sportsman and state that Fed is arrogant and a sore loser. Now I do agree that in the past, Nadal might have conducted himself (initially) after a loss more prettily than Fed, but he is an appalling example of sportsmanship on the court and like it or not, he will be remember for this just as much as for his tremendous victories, just as Johnny Mac is.

So in short, I will be pleased to see him back but this is a forum for people wishing to discuss tennis and extending the time is becoming an issue in the modern game, just as the dominance of hard courts in the tour is, or the fact that all the surfaces are playing at a similar speed. I am afraid that getting away with breaking the time rules as well as taking very dubious MTOs is as much a part of Nadal's on court strategy as blistering cross court whippy forehands to the backhand side. Of course Djokovic has been very bad with both time keeping and MTOs as well - the difference is that he has been pilloried for years in the press for the latter especially. Probably people who care about the game, and the rules are more vocal about Nadal's transgressions are that he has not suffered the same scrutiny in the press (just show me where if I'm wrong).

I hope when he comes back things may change and we can then simply applaud a great champion rather than sometimes feeling (as I did at Wimbledon 2010 and 2011) that his antics rather than his play may have dictated the outcome of a couple of matches - it would be great for him to silence such doubts, and just play and win within the existing rules.

TP
Sorry heard it all before.

If I started an article here today on this forum
"How many times is Djokovic going to be allowed to bounce the ball before he serves"

I GUARANTEE ... and put money on it... that within 2/3 posts maximum the thread will develop into Nadal´s time wasting. I frankly dont care .. I want to see him back and I want to see EVERYONE play within the rules. Now that is my bottom line and final word on the subject. You want to cast doubt on his integrity on court ... and off.
This is a subject that even if I were not the fan I was I would be well and truly pi$$ed off with reading.

Its the only thing that this forum seems to spend hours discussing... instead of the fact that he has 11 GS and more trophies than you can throw a stick at.

When he retires what on earth will you all talk about then ???

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Y A W N
Id be happy to see him back on court and back to form and so would you if you are a tennis fan that really should be more of a concern

I hope he comes back for AO, let's see.

I am sure there will always be something to talk about Haddie

I agree with you re writing a post about Djokovic, but as I say I think there would be less about Nadal if the press had been as critical of him as they have been of Novak.

There would be a sense of it being addressed, or at the very least not condoned. I think most of us criticise because we feel it is being condoned in one player.

I was a great McEnroe fan and his behaviour didn't detract from the pleasure of watching him play for me. I did understand that it did for others, and the press were loud in their condemnation - and in that respect, they were doing their jobs.

TP

I know this is hard to understand for some people but Johnny Mac has confessed he didn´t realise he was as bad as he was.. now I do believe that as in the heat and intensity of a close fought match it is easy to lose sight of "yourself" and what you are doing.

I too am of the belief that Rafa is not always aware of how long he is taking.. he is so focussed and he blocks out the distractions that are around him the time is going past unnoticed. In a sense the same with Novak so intent is he in concentrating on where he is to place his serve he is bouncing the ball without being aware.

Now i AM NOT saying that this can be allowed to continue but I have no hesitation in saying I do not believe it is being done as gamesmanship ..if that were the case I do not believe Rafa or Novak would have been allowed to get away with it by their oponents. Once when asked if it annoyed him ROGER said he didn´t really notice it anymore that is how Rafa has always played.

As I said since his recouperation Rafa is playing a lot of Poker in order to keep his mind focussed.
When practicing or knocking up notice that Rafa does not touch his shorts.
The bottles are not superstition they are focussing his mind.
His rituals before a game is to shower and then listen to music.. he blocks out any and all distractions to the point that "he goes somewhere else".
That is what he is now having to concentrate on imho physically I think he is better... its the mental aspect that he is still working on.

The point Haddie is that rules are broken - that is the only point really.

If a striker is off-side, a goal is disallowed. The time rules were put in place precisely to stop delaying tactics.

If pressure is put on the umpires by public/press opinion, then perhaps in future we might see the marquee names treated like the rank and file in this respect?

TP we are arguing the same point from different directions.. I have no problem whatsoever about rules being adhered to.. even if it were the bliddy Queen.
But the rules must be adhered to by ALL and in which case why do they not have a stop watch ... and THE WORLD AND HIS WIFE will have to abide by that.
Lord knows its easy enough to do..please for the sake of my sanity. APT give every referee/umpire etc ...a bliddy stop watch.

The umpires know how much time has elapsed - they just choose, for whatever reason, not to apply the rule.

Because I don't think the ATP has thought it is enough of an issue because they are in thrall (unsurprisingly) to their superstars, not giving enough thought to where it might end unless the rules, that their Association put in place, are adhered to.

Sometimes it takes the public to condemn certain things for sporting associations to take concerns seriously.

Well the Lord above knows tp that the public have been complaining about it
(for you JM .. since the death of the Dodo ) and there aint nobody listening

With all due respect Haddie, the fact that 'there ain't nobody listening' is not a good enough reason not to make a fuss about something that is clearly wrong and against the existing rules.

tp you are very much in danger of going around in ever increasing circles until you land up inside your own exhaust pipe : : In the meantime you make a fuss about his time wasting.as is your priviledge. and Ill carry on watching one of the most exciting tennis players these old eyes have had the priviledge of watching and I hope to continue to enjoy him whilst he is around..He hasn´t murdered anyone so whilst the powers that be want to ignore it so will I even though he is wrong coz if they dont do anything about it I cant
Maybe they will sort it by the time he retires eh

Haddie-nuff wrote:tp you are very much in danger of going around in ever increasing circles until you land up inside your own exhaust pipe

lol, very possibly and ouch!

Your above post is the reason that he is not called to account - he is very popular, the fans aren't bothered and so neither are the TDs. Perhaps they should just abandon the time rules then - much fairer to all. It is the present system that works some of the time for some of the tour that is wrong.

I do, as I spin around, just want to take you up on a point in a previous post where Roger says 'its just how he plays' and claimed not to be bothered. There are other comments from him and from other players that are not so nonchalant, but in the main of course a great champion will not let it bother him too much, and if it does, he would be a fool (and whatever you think of TMF, he is not that) to show his greatest rival that it does.

It is not actually on behalf of the top players that I would call Nadal to account - they are all big enough, powerful enough and popular enough to do that on their own. It is actually on behalf of the lower ranked players that the rule breaking really bothers me because when they do complain, and they have, there is zero notice taken of them but the larger public are unaware of their existence and simply are not that bothered.

I can't think it is healthy in any sport when umpires are so clearly not able to ensure that the sports best know ambassadors are capable of abiding by quite simple rules. You have to ask who is in control, and clearly the answer is not always the umpire.

I may be going around in circles, but you are tying yourself into knots trying to stifle the, admittedly 'been heard before' conversation, and to refuse to see that it is a problem. ;

time please wrote:While I don't wish to sound like a broken record haddie, there are two reasons (maybe 3) why the persistent bending of rules will always be brought up when discussing Nadal.

1) you say he is the only player that is singled out this way, which is patently not so. In fact the umpires are usually very hot on this matter when not dealing with a marquee name - I'm thinking particularly poor Marin Cilic penalised while serving while facing break point playing Federer in the US Open 2011 - if he was over the time it wasn't immediately noticeable to the audience and it was certainly without blatant delaying tactics. He received a warning, was rattled and lost the point and his serve. Sad for him - nevertheless he had broken a rule, much the same as being off-side in football, and the umpire took the correct decision - the sad thing is, that we all know it probably wouldn't have happened if it had been Fed instead. In fact I think I am correct in saying that the same umpire officiated at a Nadal match at the same tournament and took no such action.

2) I have missed seeing a great competitor, but I have not missed the sly gamesmanship of the Nadal camp one iota - you talk about Murray taking time and yet he never did so, was in fact immaculate in on-court etiquette in this regard, but he has obiviously been advised by Lendl to play a few mind games back, as has Fed with Annacone. I think we will see more and more young players coached to disregard the rules - so it is a little pointless having them. I agree Djokovic is bad - he has made some attempt to limit the ball bouncing a lot of the time apart from against Nadal - but that might change if courtesy was extended the other way, who knows?

3) Also, because those Nadal fans who are not Fed ones always cite Nadal as being the true sportsman and state that Fed is arrogant and a sore loser. Now I do agree that in the past, Nadal might have conducted himself (initially) after a loss more prettily than Fed, but he is an appalling example of sportsmanship on the court and like it or not, he will be remember for this just as much as for his tremendous victories, just as Johnny Mac is.

So in short, I will be pleased to see him back but this is a forum for people wishing to discuss tennis and extending the time is becoming an issue in the modern game, just as the dominance of hard courts in the tour is, or the fact that all the surfaces are playing at a similar speed. I am afraid that getting away with breaking the time rules as well as taking very dubious MTOs is as much a part of Nadal's on court strategy as blistering cross court whippy forehands to the backhand side. Of course Djokovic has been very bad with both time keeping and MTOs as well - the difference is that he has been pilloried for years in the press for the latter especially. Probably people who care about the game, and the rules are more vocal about Nadal's transgressions are that he has not suffered the same scrutiny in the press (just show me where if I'm wrong).

I hope when he comes back things may change and we can then simply applaud a great champion rather than sometimes feeling (as I did at Wimbledon 2010 and 2011) that his antics rather than his play may have dictated the outcome of a couple of matches - it would be great for him to silence such doubts, and just play and win within the existing rules.

time please

I really find it difficult to understand how you have come to see Nadal in this way!

1) I didn't see Cilic being warned at such a crucial point in a match but Nadal has often been given a warning and often at crucial points. Inevitably he speeds up. IMHO the only reason why many are interested in the length of time a player takes between points is because Nadal is slower. No one has the slightest interest in the length of time other players take between points. Other players have been slow in the past and until Nadal came along I'm pretty sure that being slow in itself wasn't described as gamesmanship. It was the behavior of say McEnroe or Nastase and not their slowness that the rule was brought in to control.

2)Nadal has no need to resort to "sly gamesmanship". To me gamesmanship is the sort of thing you speculate Llendl may have advised Murray to use. Gamesmanship has to be deliberate, planned and is used at critical times in a match... not following a routine that is always the same. I am always shocked at how players are advised to use gamesmanship against Nadal. For example they are told they should knock over his water bottles. Seriously how bad is that if someone took the advice?

3) Both Nadal AND Federer will be remembered for their excellent sportsmanship as well as their excellent game! Sorry but anyone who says otherwise has an opinion very different to the popular one. Maybe some biased fans of just one or the other or fans of other individual players have their own reasons for wishing it wasn't so or wishing that one was the good guy and one was the bad guy?

Also suggesting that Nadal has won what he has because of "his antics" (whatever that means) and not his game makes me think you should watch him play more often because you may not have realized just how good a player he is.

I was waiting for you to pounce He

I think I have made it quite clear I consider Nadal the best of his generation, and probably of this era. I much prefer Federer's game, but there is a great argument to be made for Nadal being even greater, not so much the h2h because it would be more even if Fed hadn't been such a good clay court player, but because Nadal has won 6 of their 8 slam final meetings on 3 different surfaces. So I really fail to see how you can misunderstand me in your last sentence.

What I did say, thinking about Petszchner (I can't remember how to spell it)2010 and Del Potro 2011 is : ' hope when he comes back things may change and we can then simply applaud a great champion rather than sometimes feeling (as I did at Wimbledon 2010 and 2011) that his antics rather than his play may have dictated the outcome of a couple of matches - it would be great for him to silence such doubts, and just play and win within the existing rules.

These are not great examples of rule breaking, so you would have been better to pick me up on that because while he was slow during the matches I think most people got that I was talking about 2 very dubious MTOs which weren't actually against the rules.!!

Anyway, I said that the behaviour left some of us with a feeling that it might have had a negative influence on opponents play - not that his opponent would have won. Nadal would very probably have won anyway, but how much nicer to do it without the controversy and without raising some niggling doubts.

I think I have probably now made it pretty obvious that I am quite au fait with a fair proportion of his matches


ti[i]

bla bla bla HE, always ignoring the evidence and presenting your own picture, NADAL NEVER DOES ANYTHING WRONG, MURRAY IS THE DEVIL!

time please

Ha ha! I like the idea you were waiting for me to pounce. But now that you have said that you are "quite au fait with a fair proportion of his matches" and been very complimentary (for 606v2) about Nadal's play you have sort of taken the wind out of my sails. I will save my strength for another time...

lol. Personally, I very much hope you never run out of puff HE

I don't know why anyone believes anything from the Nadals. All this is typical 'playing down' stuff, he'll be there in 100% condition. After all, how else does everyone fall to the floor worshipping when he does well?

I agree BB, I think Rafa will be in Melbourne and I think he'll be a threat. He's started training so will have had 6-8 weeks of training behind him. When a footballer comes back from a knee injury it takes him a few weeks before he's back to his best. So after a full pre season of training why should Rafa be any different?

He'll be fit and raring to go I think. The only thing that would stop that is if his knee still isn't right. But if his knee wasn't right, he wouldn't be back in training. I understand both his camp and his fans playing it down, but it's hard to swallow from a neutral perspective.

Does feel like a really odd injury. He looked completely ok in the Rosol match, then was due back for the Olympics and then it gradually took longer and longer. Feels to me like he must just be being extra cautious and saw no reason to rush back for the indoor stretch. He will be fine in Australia.

Born Slippy wrote:Does feel like a really odd injury. He looked completely ok in the Rosol match, then was due back for the Olympics and then it gradually took longer and longer. Feels to me like he must just be being extra cautious and saw no reason to rush back for the indoor stretch. He will be fine in Australia.

It always happens when Nadal loses, Slippy haven't we heared from some die hard worshippers that Nadal lost to Soderling just coz of injury? , Nadal lost to Del Potro in USO just coz of injury? Nadal lost to Ferrer in AO just coz of injury, so why Nadal losing to Rosol any different, its all due to injury only.

Nadal never lost a match when he is fit, and will not even lose a match in future when he is fit. Nadal is immortal super man.

I agree that I think he could have come back earlier, I think it was a niggling injury that was affecting him for a while but he could play through it. The Rosol match was the last straw for him, and has decided to stay off until its completely gone, Why rush back for Paris or the World Tour finals when even when he is fully fit he hasn't enjoyed, had the Davis Cup final been on clay I really could have seen him playing

Then why did he not play the Olympics he was going to be the flag bearer..

"niggling injury"

I imagine some of you will still not accept even Rafa's own words on FB and Twitter .................. but for those less sceptical .....here surely is what (seems to be... ) definitive confirmation - within the last hour or so - that he is all set to return, beginning with Abu Dhabi

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nadal-confirms-hell-return-action-134732952--ten.html

It will be a dreary change, going from not believing what I am hearing back to not believing what I am seeing.

Nadal is most probably waiting for Lukas Rosol to develop some sort of injury first before he fully comes back onto the main tour!

Rafa said yesterday..."My goal is to reach Acapulco well prepared and then be really fit for Indian Wells and Miami."

Doesn't sound like AO13 is concrete at all...