Munster vs Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Just kicked off looks like it will be a bruising encounter

Worrying point for others, Sarries although not having a massive amount of control did enough to win the game, created enough kickable penalties to take the win... Farrell just fluffed his lines.

Not a great Sarries performance but couldve easily been enough to win it

Feckless Rogue wrote:Those bonus points can come back to bite you.

conceding 17 penalties, most of those unfairly, but you cant give that much to anyone...! Munster are a very good side, its great they won, but need to work on a lot before they play next weekend.

O'Gara may well be too conservative a flyhalf for this team.

Golden wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Golden wrote:If Munster had a decent OH they would have a very good team

They have two. One of whom could be the future irish 10.

Yeah fair enough but they have to play him first.

Keatley isnt amazing either. definitely an improvement on O Gara at the moment though.

The major problem with Rog is that he is stifling the team as a whole. It not just that he isn't good enough, he is having a negative impact on those around him due to his limitations. Every time Rog passes the ball out, whichever teammate receives the pass is guaranteed to get two men arriving with the ball, because the opposition realise that Rog isn't going to break so they can safely ignore him.

Keatley's problem is that he is mentally weak and can let missed kicks affect the rest of his game. JJ doesn't have that problem.

Sarries should be favourites at home. I would be surprised if their set piece was that bad again.

Well played both teams. Intense stuff.

Saracens managed to nick the game at the end with the penalty. They'll win next week and should win the group. Whoever that kicker is for Sarries should be left at nursery school for next week's match. He's brutal.

Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnssssteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr.

Good game.

Pot Hale wrote:Saracens managed to nick the game at the end with the penalty. They'll win next week and should win the group. Whoever that kicker is for Sarries should be left at nursery school for next week's match. He's brutal.

World player of the year contender is pretty laughable alright, very average player.

I enjoyed that match, there were lots of penalties but loved the uncompromising tackles, Keith Earls has some serious pace.

valjester wrote:
Considering I don't live in the country anymore, no I don't, and I rarely did. Stringer still has the best pass of any Irish scrumhalf, its no longer anywhere near consistent enough as he once was though.

Marshall's pass is the weakest part of his game.

With respect then Val I have to say that would have been true 3 seasons ago. Marshall is a vastly improved player and his passing is certainly one of the best aspects of his game.

By contrast Stringer is totally shot as a top level player and his service and box kicking are all over the place at times. We'll have to agree to disagree

..oh yeah well done Munster

EnglishReign wrote:Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnssssteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr.

Good game.

You have one E too many in there mate. You'll go blue in the face.

Biltong wrote:I enjoyed that match, there were lots of penalties but loved the uncompromising tackles, Keith Earls has some serious pace.

Bill mate you probably knew the players better than us... !!!

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I enjoyed that match, there were lots of penalties but loved the uncompromising tackles, Keith Earls has some serious pace.

Bill mate you probably knew the players better than us... !!!

Only about half of them.

Coughlan had a blinder. I won an accumulator partly thanks to Munster's win, over the moon.

Very enjoyable match to watch.

Munster really needed to prevent Saracens getting that bonus point, as I don't think Munster won that game as much as Saracens threw it away.

Munster really need to step it up next week as I don't see Saracens making the same number of mistakes and they didn't spend nearly enough time in Saracens' 22 or produce enough in attacking intent.

What a disgraceful refereeing performance that was. He was blowing up for everything including knock ons that clearly were not. They must have different rules in France.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I enjoyed that match, there were lots of penalties but loved the uncompromising tackles, Keith Earls has some serious pace.

Bill mate you probably knew the players better than us... !!!

Only about half of them.

Ha ha ha, couldnt believe it when Dewi said it, 11 Sarries players were SA...

He sounde to me as though he spent too long at the hotel party the previous night!

Firstly congrats munster. you deserved to win.

Yet again not being clinical has let Saracens down. You don't waste that many opportunities and win the game.

Farrell had a shocker and the line out was a shambles.

No rhythm.

If Munster are giving away that many penalties surely a sin bin is in order?

I said before the game Tomkins should have started at 13 with Farrell on the bench. Turned out to be right unsurprisingly. Hopefully the coaches realise I was right and make it right for next week.

I don't think either side were particularly good. Munster just took their opportunities.

Munster deserved to win simply for actually taking the points when on offer.

Both will significantly need to up their games to be considered HC title challengers IMO.

beshocked wrote:

I don't think either side were particularly good. Munster just took their opportunities.

Munster deserved to win simply for actually taking the points when on offer.

Both will significantly need to up their games to be considered HC title challengers IMO.

Agree with that. Only seen the second half but both sides looked very poor.

I really can't understand what Penny is doing with Munster and why he thinks getting Donnacha O'Callaghan to stand on the wing is an effective attacking game plan....

Great to see the underrated Coughlan back though, looked the best player on the pitch to me...

beshocked wrote:

Firstly congrats munster. you deserved to win.

Yet again not being clinical has let Saracens down. You don't waste that many opportunities and win the game.

Farrell had a shocker and the line out was a shambles.

No rhythm.

If Munster are giving away that many penalties surely a sin bin is in order?

I said before the game Tomkins should have started at 13 with Farrell on the bench. Turned out to be right unsurprisingly. Hopefully the coaches realise I was right and make it right for next week.

I don't think either side were particularly good. Munster just took their opportunities.

Munster deserved to win simply for actually taking the points when on offer.

Both will significantly need to up their games to be considered HC title challengers IMO.

If they leave Farrell at 13 and Munster sort out the Rog problem, Munster could make hay down that channel. The few times Earls got a chance to run at Farrell he was able to beat him with ease. Unfortunately with Rog at 10 that happened very few times.

I doubt either team could be considered serious challengers for the cup, Munster are at least a season away from competing.

The ref rode Munster tonight. The Munster scrum was penalised when Munster were on top and it got to the stage where Munster were penalised for things they didn't even do. Every time Munster got into the Saracens half the ref blew.

valjester wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Firstly congrats munster. you deserved to win.

Yet again not being clinical has let Saracens down. You don't waste that many opportunities and win the game.

Farrell had a shocker and the line out was a shambles.

No rhythm.

If Munster are giving away that many penalties surely a sin bin is in order?

I said before the game Tomkins should have started at 13 with Farrell on the bench. Turned out to be right unsurprisingly. Hopefully the coaches realise I was right and make it right for next week.

I don't think either side were particularly good. Munster just took their opportunities.

Munster deserved to win simply for actually taking the points when on offer.

Both will significantly need to up their games to be considered HC title challengers IMO.

If they leave Farrell at 13 and Munster sort out the Rog problem, Munster could make hay down that channel. The few times Earls got a chance to run at Farrell he was able to beat him with ease. Unfortunately with Rog at 10 that happened very few times.

I doubt either team could be considered serious challengers for the cup, Munster are at least a season away from competing.

I hope saracens aren't stupid enough to make the same mistake twice.

Don't know what you mean by Munster being a season away from being title contenders again. Didn't look like that to me. Less creativity than Saracens is not where you want to be.

profitius wrote:The ref rode Munster tonight. The Munster scrum was penalised when Munster were on top and it got to the stage where Munster were penalised for things they didn't even do. Every time Munster got into the Saracens half the ref blew.

Rubbish.

Would be great if the thread maker could eradicate posts like this.

beshocked wrote:

profitius wrote:The ref rode Munster tonight. The Munster scrum was penalised when Munster were on top and it got to the stage where Munster were penalised for things they didn't even do. Every time Munster got into the Saracens half the ref blew.

Rubbish.

Would be great if the thread maker could eradicate posts like this.

How is it rubbish. Murrays "crooked" feed to the scrum summed it all up.

beshocked wrote:

If they leave Farrell at 13 and Munster sort out the Rog problem, Munster could make hay down that channel. The few times Earls got a chance to run at Farrell he was able to beat him with ease. Unfortunately with Rog at 10 that happened very few times.

I doubt either team could be considered serious challengers for the cup, Munster are at least a season away from competing.

I hope saracens aren't stupid enough to make the same mistake twice.

Don't know what you mean by Munster being a season away from being title contenders again. Didn't look like that to me. Less creativity than Saracens is not where you want to be.[/quote]

Rog will be gone which will improve them by about 1000% in terms of creativity. I don't expect them to win it next year but I expect they will be a hell of a lot better.

Got to agree with beshocked as regards the scrum. Munster got a few bad calls (o'mahoneys phantom knock on or murrays crooked feed) but munster got away with blue murder at the scrum. Watch again and you can see that every scrum whichever flanker ws packing down behind BJ came right round and drove under the Saracens LH. The ref missed it every time although he pinged munster for other infringements.

I think both teams suffered at the breakdown due to his interpretations. The reality is munster destroyed the sarries line out and disrupted the scrum effectively. Things improved massively for them once smit came on and if I were a Saracens fan I would want him to start next week.

Whoever is coaching their backs needs a slap too. Have they no clue how to straighten the line. It cost them a try in the 2nd half and a few minutes later strettle broke through and rather than try and go inside and set up the ball he went to the line and allowed jones to bundle him out. Complete lunacy

valjester wrote:
Rog will be gone which will improve them by about 1000% in terms of creativity. I don't expect them to win it next year but I expect they will be a hell of a lot better.

Yup. You could say ROG is cramping Munsters style. Keatley, Lualala and JJ Hanrahan are 3 players who will offer more. They'll also be a year into adapting to Penneys way.

I hope that ref never gets near a heineken cup match again after that performance. Any time any sort of rhythm built up he was on his whistle, I dont think he's heard of the concept of playing advantage.

He just ruined the contest, it had all the signs of shaping up to being a good match too.

profitius wrote:The ref rode Munster tonight. The Munster scrum was penalised when Munster were on top and it got to the stage where Munster were penalised for things they didn't even do. Every time Munster got into the Saracens half the ref blew.

True, that's how they got all those penalties kicked.

Standulstermen wrote:Got to agree with beshocked as regards the scrum. Munster got a few bad calls (o'mahoneys phantom knock on or murrays crooked feed) but munster got away with blue murder at the scrum. Watch again and you can see that every scrum whichever flanker ws packing down behind BJ came right round and drove under the Saracens LH. The ref missed it every time although he pinged munster for other infringements.

I think both teams suffered at the breakdown due to his interpretations. The reality is munster destroyed the sarries line out and disrupted the scrum effectively. Things improved massively for them once smit came on and if I were a Saracens fan I would want him to start next week.

Whoever is coaching their backs needs a slap too. Have they no clue how to straighten the line. It cost them a try in the 2nd half and a few minutes later strettle broke through and rather than try and go inside and set up the ball he went to the line and allowed jones to bundle him out. Complete lunacy

Good post. Totally agree on all points.

Breadvan wrote:lol at at the crowds holier than thou shushing at kicks...

That really annoys me at the moment, how some little feicers ae booing the opposition kicker, completely disrespectful, a lot of people around me were giving out about it as well. I don't think it can be fixed, but it is really annoying.



At the game I thoguht the ref was awful, but that was with my red specs on. He really should have binned Zebo late on, saw some of the highlights and thought he was okay, seemed to get the scrum horrendously wrong but again I might have my red specs on.

I don't think the ref has a good feel for the game but I don't think he was helped by bothbteams. It was attritional but most rucks wer a mess with both sides flying in from all angles and off their feet. I think the result in the end was fair but ROG really is the elephant in the room for munster.

He doesnt even hint at taking the ball forward now. Everything about him is sideways and he has such a wind up now if he throws it any length it is just so deliberate. With keatley or JJ I thi munster would have won more comfortably and JJs kicking is spot on usually

Standulstermen wrote:I don't think the ref has a good feel for the game but I don't think he was helped by bothbteams. It was attritional but most rucks wer a mess with both sides flying in from all angles and off their feet. I think the result in the end was fair but ROG really is the elephant in the room for munster.

He doesnt even hint at taking the ball forward now. Everything about him is sideways and he has such a wind up now if he throws it any length it is just so deliberate. With keatley or JJ I thi munster would have won more comfortably and JJs kicking is spot on usually

Penny doesn't seem to rate JJ that highly. He hasn't given him much gametime at all. Even when JJ is on the bench, he only comes for the last 5 mins.

Its going to be a while before JJ is to be considered a starter, even though he probably already should be.

Stand, I'm beginning to think it is a move from on high, having ROG in the team with a game Penney is trying to play makes absolutely no sense. Was talking to my uncle after the game (who has wanted rid of ROG since 2010) who put forward an interesting idea, that ROG was never actually that good. Without a world class pack and Stringer, ROG would have been nothing.

I thought this game was a perfect example of why the rules regarding the breakdown need looked at. The referee was very strict in this area, and it is almost impossible to be consistent if you are going to referee the game like that. It also just kills any momentum the game has. That is the sort of stop-start game you will get if a referee is going to properly try and monitor every little nuance at the breakdown.

If I were a Saracens fan I think I would want to see Farrell at 10 next week, Sarries showed very little in attack with Hodgson there.

All the word from NZ is that Penney is a top coach and was more highly regarded than anscombe. I genuinely don't believe it is his call on ROG. I think there are issues regarding his contract and the fact that he is ROG and won't like playing 2nd or even 3rd choice.

I think he was a good fly half and Ireland did play some great rugby with him at 10. Munster less so but that was because their strength was a terrific pack so in that regard he was the perfect fly half for munster. His time is gone now though and he is so far off the pace it is ridiculous at this point

Rory

I'm not sure the rules need looked at as much as the ref should have had yellow out a few times. That is the deterrent.

ROG has a massive influence over Irish rugby, his cloud will hang over Musnter and the IRFU for a long time. There is no way Penney is picking him to play for Munster, it makes absolutely no sense, totally against the gameplan he is trying to implement.

One of the best things about ROG was his intelligence but even that seems gone now. He keeps trying ridiculous restarts, going really short distance hoping that his forwards will be able to contest it and win it. An example of this was last night when he needed to go long, but then kicked the ball about 15m forwards towards the side line and it went out on the full. He also keeps trying chips over the opposition line, several of which have been charged down in his last few matches and the others just handing possession to the opposition.

I agree with the above its getting beyond ridiculous at this stage. The only thing even more ridiculous is Kidney giving him cameo's at the end of Ireland's matches, what the hell is going on there.

ROG has a central contract. Maybe thats the reason.

It may be the only reason Prof, it makes no sense to play him given what we are trying to do.


ROG would be nothing without Stringer and a world class pack that he had. Wally was tremendous player, I'm starting to wonder how good he could have been if he didn't have to baby ROG for his career.

Biggest load of shoite I have seen in a while: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/ogara-proves-the-perfect-10-to-give-munster-clinical-edge-3319870.html

"He might easily have picked up the man-of-the-match award ahead of James Coughlan, who you suspect got it for his endurance"

Or maybe he got it because he had an immense game and beat 6 defenders?

James Coughlan for Ireland anyone?

What's more surprising is one or two people in the comments thought he was pretty good!


L4L, I'm biased but I really think jhe has been better than Heaslip over the last 2 years, Heaslip is not as good as people make him out to be in my opinion. Coughlan is pretty old, at least 31 but if he is good enough he is young enough. I still don;t get why people target him at kickoffs, I don't think I have ever seen him drop one!

Thomond wrote:What's more surprising is one or two people in the comments thought he was pretty good!


L4L, I'm biased but I really think jhe has been better than Heaslip over the last 2 years, Heaslip is not as good as people make him out to be in my opinion. Coughlan is pretty old, at least 31 but if he is good enough he is young enough. I still don;t get why people target him at kickoffs, I don't think I have ever seen him drop one!

I agree with you, he's been a much better ball carrier than Heaslip the last few seasons.

He's the most underrated player in Ireland imo. Would love to see him start in the 6n.

Thomond wrote:What's more surprising is one or two people in the comments thought he was pretty good!


L4L, I'm biased but I really think jhe has been better than Heaslip over the last 2 years, Heaslip is not as good as people make him out to be in my opinion. Coughlan is pretty old, at least 31 but if he is good enough he is young enough. I still don;t get why people target him at kickoffs, I don't think I have ever seen him drop one!

I think there are a few options at 8 who are better than Heaslip these days, and Coughlan certainly deserves a shot if he plays like that.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Thomond wrote:What's more surprising is one or two people in the comments thought he was pretty good!


L4L, I'm biased but I really think jhe has been better than Heaslip over the last 2 years, Heaslip is not as good as people make him out to be in my opinion. Coughlan is pretty old, at least 31 but if he is good enough he is young enough. I still don;t get why people target him at kickoffs, I don't think I have ever seen him drop one!

I think there are a few options at 8 who are better than Heaslip these days, and Coughlan certainly deserves a shot if he plays like that.

Heaslip has been close to back to his best so far this season, he is a much better player than Coughlan, who has been extremely good consistently since he got his chance.

I thought that piece in the Indo would be by that gobsh*te Connor George, who is extremely lucky to be working in national journalism and should be left to cover Cork only. Rog was terrible yesterday, and his goal kicking was perfect but everything else was atrocious including his line kicking, he missed two penalties to touch which shouldn't be overlooked, nor should his retarded 22 drop.


On the ref and the breakdown, Munster need to adapt better to his interpretation, its as simple as that. They have had him before this season against Leinster and they struggled then, they have no excuse next week if they continue to struggle. The only major issues I would have with him were the scrum and the offside line, Saracens got away with a lot of false starts at the offside line where they would rush forward slightly thinking Murray had hands on the ball and then retreat slowly, it shouldn't have been allowed and slowed down any quick ball, not that it mattered as when Munster got quick ball Rog made sure to turn it into slow ball anyway.

He played well for Leinster a few times this season, but he wasn't anything special in the autumn tests. He may well be the better player on form, but he hasn't exactly been on form for a long time. He isn't good enough with ball in hand, which you want your 8 to be doing on a frequent basis.