Premiership Rugby is to begin discussions next month about an alternative competition to the Heineken Cup that could include an element of southern hemisphere opposition.

First topic message reminder :

Could be interesting. Would be great for the continued development of Argentina.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9741136/Premiership-Rugby-to-set-up-talks-to-break-deadlock-over-new-Heineken-Cup-competition.html

Premiership Rugby is to begin discussions next month about an alternative competition to the Heineken Cup that could include an element of southern hemisphere opposition.

By Gavin Mairs
11:00PM GMT 12 Dec 2012

The move comes after a fourth round of talks involving European stakeholders, held at a hotel near Heathrow Airport, failed to end the impasse over the future structure of the Heineken Cup from 2014.

Among proposals likely to come under consideration are an Anglo-French competition, while there is thought to be interest from Argentina to establish professional clubs below their national side that could be based in Spain.

While there is still hope that a deal can be done for English clubs to remain in the European tournament, one source said last night it was time for “big thinking”.

The English clubs’ position is strengthened by their new television deal with BT Vision from 2014 which would be lucrative enough to replace the income from both the Premiership and European competitions.

Divisions between the English and French clubs — who are demanding reform of the tournament, including a reduction of clubs from 24 to 20 — and their Rabodirect Pro 12 counterparts are thought to have widened.

While the proposal by the representatives of the Celtic and Italian clubs for an expanded tournament of 32 clubs is now thought to be off the table, their overriding preference is said to be to maintain the status quo.

Premiership Rugby had hoped that a breakthrough would have been possible after presenting details of a possible compromise over their demands that only the top six of the Pro 12 clubs qualify and financial guarantees over funding.

The English clubs’s suggestion was for the top four Pro 12 sides to automatically qualify, with the next two qualifiers based on geographical spread to ensure every country was represented in the tournament.

Sources say there was no give in the Pro 12 position, which currently guarantees two places for Scotland and Italy, during the three-hour meeting.

The English and French clubs however pointed out that as they had served the necessary two years’ notice on the current accord back in June, it was not realistic to expect them now to accept the status quo six months on.

It is understood that Premiership Rugby remains hopeful that an agreement can still be reached and are prepared to re-examine their own proposals over the festive period.

But this will also go hand-in-hand with exploratory talks about filling the nine European weekends with an alternative tournament.

While no date was set for another stakeholder meeting, the ERC board is scheduled to meet on Feb 6 next year, when a further review will take place.

fa0019 wrote:ENG clubs are financially weaker than FRA clubs.... how do they keep their players bar Steffon Armitage???

If WAL want to keep their best players then just put in a rule stating that only home based players are chosen.

SA near almost enforce it, ENG enforce it and NZ & AUS certainly enforce it.

It may be hard at first but eventually it will work... why, because test rugby is king and always will be. Know who Antoine Claassen is, not many do???

He's probably one of the best backrow players from South Africa in the last 5 years.... the only thing is, he plys his trade in France and moved because no Franchise would have him.

Would Lydiate have got his chance in France if he played for newport only, especially for the big bucks... Claassen had to start from the bottom in France, thats where everyone else would do to.... want to play in the world cup??? Sign to our sides, if not goodbye.

You may lose the odd star but eventually players will see the merits of test rugby over financial gains.. at least until they've retired from test rugby.

Enforce it and Welsh rugby will improve, both test and domestic... put it in but don't enforce it and you might as welll not bother.

The only way you will get test rugby to be king is with a global season. Test rugby currently is not king in Europe.

thebluesmancometh

why not as you suggest for IRE, WAL and SCO to set up their own domestic leagues and then claim the same number of places???

The only difference

You can't have lets say 4 teams in Ireland and then say the top 3 get qualification... rather the 4 franchises would have to split into original clubs .i.e. 10-14 teams... and out of those teams the top 3 go through.

That would make things fair... go back to welsh rugby pre-franchised.

In that scenario the rugby in those countries would go down in team strength quality however. So leagues such as the french league should demand more spots.. as French and English teams would probably dominate..... its just like England in football who gets 4 CL spots over Scotland's 1.

BB

You really think so???

How many European players have chosen club rugby over test rugby???

Lee Bryne, Steffon & Delon Armitage???? Not exactly the brightest of stars although I admit those 3 should be playing test rugby.

Longer Test seasons?

More importance given to Test games?

If you keep that talk up Biltong, you'll be tarred and feathered by the PRL and French club godfathers.

Their sworn duty, after the secret hand shakes all round, is the death of Test/International rugby...or certainly a greater controlling hand on it's future by the club owners, who have 'international' aspirations for their own clubs.

Well I actually think Wales returning to a prem isn't a million miles away, and I personally wouldn't be surprised or dissapointed by it.

So if Wales did, we would have the right to take an extra spot or two, meaning England or France would have to lose one. Can you imagine the uproar if one of the lowly celts put a proposal of such to the PRL or FFR????!!!!

fa0019 wrote:BB

You really think so???

How many European players have chosen club rugby over test rugby???

Lee Bryne, Steffon & Delon Armitage???? Not exactly the brightest of stars although I admit those 3 should be playing test rugby.

FA, the reality is the players want to play test rugby, however money rules their lives, and who has the money?

The Clubs.

SecretFly wrote:Longer Test seasons?

More importance given to Test games?

If you keep that talk up Biltong, you'll be tarred and feathered by the PRL and French club godfathers.

Their sworn duty, after the secret hand shakes all round, is the death of Test/International rugby...or certainly a greater controlling hand on it's future by the club owners, who have 'international' aspirations for their own clubs.

fa

I'm not sure if your listening to yourself, or reading what your typing...

You lot should do this,

You lot should do that,

Yet us lot aren't the ones with the problems, the Rabo has won the HC 4 times in 5 is it? The English clubs are struggling and IMHO not very far ahead of the poor Scot and Welsh clubs who are funded hugely less.

Before you go and fix the Rabo teams get your own house in order, I wouldn't turn to the PRL and say 'freate region and not only will you be more competitive you'll have a much higher % of teams qualifying, infact you could have 100% of your regions competing in the HC' would I now???

AlastairW wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Alaistar

In that case how would you feel Ireland, Scotland and Wales forming their own leagues and arguing for the same amount of places England and France receive? All for it I should think? You know on the merit that welsh clubs will have earnt a place as much as any English club?

Sorry Blues, I'm having more of a dim moment than usual. Not sure what you're getting at exactly.

Oddly yes, if each 6N country had their own league of roughly even team numbers and only the top X from each qualified I'd pay subscription to watch that for sure (I don't think I'm shooting myself in the foot there!). It makes domestic competition fiercer; good for the fans. Makes the HC fiercer; again, good for the fans. For me, if that means a reduction in English clubs in (can't speak for France, not got that mandate!) but ended up with a better competition so be it. It could only be good for the AP as well, making better competition for those hallowed slots.

This is all pie in the sky unfortunately, because they're not set up like that, and if the English proposal of 'merit alone' excluded any of the 6N sides alone then you're heading towards a full Euro-type competition, not a 6N competition. This would be detrimental to some countries, and that I'm certainly not game for.

Also, back to the flaming bean counters. That means viewing figures, etc, etc and that's been covered to death.

That's the theory but what would actually happen is you'd have an Irish league with all the top class players spread around so thinly that the quality would be much diminished clubs would be destroyed in the HC.Check out the early HC results of the Welsh teams when they had a 12 team (I think) league as the professional bedrock of their game.50 point hammerings from the French and English were fairly regular.

Another factor for Ireland anyway is that large areas of the country would have no representation.There are massive parts of Ireland with no real rugby clubs and the provincial fans in these areas wouldn't just pick a club at random and start following them.You also would have a huge fall off in crowd numbers as the provinces would have to carve up the fans they have between each club and will have lost the aforementioned fans who have no club in the league.

Well i wish the English luck, good on you, have fun playing South African teams.

You never know it might open up an entire new playing pool for the English national team

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well I actually think Wales returning to a prem isn't a million miles away, and I personally wouldn't be surprised or dissapointed by it.

So if Wales did, we would have the right to take an extra spot or two, meaning England or France would have to lose one. Can you imagine the uproar if one of the lowly celts put a proposal of such to the PRL or FFR????!!!!

I'd be more than happy to drop one. Lets face it, Sale got a lucky win earlier on in the year and other than that have bought absolutely bog all to the competition, neither Biarritz for that matter.

For example, there's talk that Harlequins, due to the luck of the draw got a free pass or an easy ride to the knock out stages. In truly top flight competition there should not even be any talk of 'easy ride' or 'free pass', the fact that there's even talk of that shows something needs to change. Teams are getting in on a free pass that do not add value. That reduces competition for these places in all domestic leagues, again, I do not fully support the English meritocratic only entry, that would be detrimental to some unions - and believe it or not I don't sit here as an Englishman rubbing my hands together in glee at the thought of the sport I love dying out in other countries. Yet, neither do I think that things should remain as they are.

They want a scenario like the English soccer premiership where the rich grow richer and they're able to hoover up all the talent and fans from the smaller countries. Once that ball starts to roll its going to be hard to stop.

There is another possibility that might happen - a British and Irish league (and Italian). It would be split into 2 divisions with promotion and relegation between the 2 divisions and it could still have promotion/relegation open to English second division clubs. Money could be evenly divided between leagues too to keep everyone happy and the HEC could be scaled down so the players are not overworked. No point looking at a European league because the French love the Top 14.

Btw, BT have been very quiet. You would think they'll put pressure on the PRL to get a deal done because I don't think they're splashing out that money to have no HEC.

viewtothegym wrote:Well i wish the English luck, good on you, have fun playing South African teams.

That's not going to happen.

I know Biltong,
but if they want a southern hemisphere element the only real option is South Africa.

But im afraid it's all pie in the sky stuff from the English.

Billtong would you not say that SH teams have a bigger problem haemmoraging players to club rugby over international rugby.

In general though I agree that the club rugby environment in Europe is developing at pace with agendas that really arent altogether in synch with the development and preservation of the International game which IMO should always be of foremost importance in every rugby decision made such as the ones being discussed in this thread.

fa0019 wrote:thebluesmancometh

why not as you suggest for IRE, WAL and SCO to set up their own domestic leagues and then claim the same number of places???

The only difference

You can't have lets say 4 teams in Ireland and then say the top 3 get qualification... rather the 4 franchises would have to split into original clubs .i.e. 10-14 teams... and out of those teams the top 3 go through.

That would make things fair... go back to welsh rugby pre-franchised.

In that scenario the rugby in those countries would go down in team strength quality however. So leagues such as the french league should demand more spots.. as French and English teams would probably dominate..... its just like England in football who gets 4 CL spots over Scotland's 1.

So you think the Irish should abandon the system which has worked very well for them and take on one that would guarantee a far weaker domestic game and allow England and France to dominate?

If that's what you are saying I have to conclude you're being willfully ignorant at this stage.

An Argentine, SA, French Cup? Played in England?

A French, Argentine, Irish Cup? Played in Wales?

Come on guys, something's gotta work. At least, after months of infighting, we've narrowed it down to just:

England,
Wales,
Scotland,
Argentina,
Ireland,
France,
South Africa
Italy

The PRL certainly know how to turn a local skirmish into the beginnings of another World War!

profitius wrote:They want a scenario like the English soccer premiership where the rich grow richer and they're able to hoover up all the talent and fans from the smaller countries. Once that ball starts to roll its going to be hard to stop.

Wholeheartedly agree and this is the reason why I am particularly concerned with the AP. Also why i dont think they should be entertained at all. the last thing we need is greedy clubs having all the power.

profitius wrote:

There is another possibility that might happen - a British and Irish league (and Italian). It would be split into 2 divisions with promotion and relegation between the 2 divisions and it could still have promotion/relegation open to English second division clubs. Money could be evenly divided between leagues too to keep everyone happy and the HEC could be scaled down so the players are not overworked. No point looking at a European league because the French love the Top 14.

This would probably just end up over time having a concentration of rich clubs from England or capital cities and everyone else in the lower tier.

thebluesmancometh

I don't support any English club or English clubs in general. I live in Cape Town and support WP.

Lets not get into this rabo this and rabo that.... Its Ireland not the Rabo which is successful... if so Scottish and Welsh teams wouldn't do so badly as they do... Edinburgh wouldn't get thumped by 40 points vs. Saracens etc etc.

You made the suggestion... all I said was that I'd be happy at that but don't expect to get it all your own way as you can't have a phoney domestic league with 3 pro teams and the rest semi-pro like the domestic leagues you currently have... it would have to be a complete de-franchise and that would significantly reduce the strengths of various teams.

The whole discussion people have been having here today is that ENG posters are generally disasatisfied at generating money to be fed into other unions coffers to the detriment of themselves and thats something we in SA can appreciate.... as we suffer greatly from the same problem.

I believe in real competition where a club/union has the incentive to go out and be the masters of their own destiny.. if they build their side and market themselves properly then why shouldn't they reap the rewards.

Its the essence of the very problem held in feeder countries such as WAL, SCO and AUS. They don't bother developing their own clubs like others, their own game.... because they can rely on talent and revenue being generated by others. Their is no incentive to go out and work.

If AUS wanted to they could massively widen their appeal, same with Scotland.... they've just grown fat on other peoples money and take the short route every time. Its the same with players.... Ireland had a skills gap so rather than develop their own players they opened their cheque book and hijacked CJ Stander as a "project residency" player. Its pathetic.

GunsGerms wrote:Billtong would you not say that SH teams have a bigger problem haemmoraging players to club rugby over international rugby.

In general though I agree that the club rugby environment in Europe is developing at pace with agendas that really arent altogether in synch with the development and preservation of the International game which IMO should always be of foremost importance in every rugby decision made such as the ones being discussed in this thread.

Of course we do.

I can only speak of SA, but just consider the caliber of players that became "projects" this year. Its all about the money

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:They want a scenario like the English soccer premiership where the rich grow richer and they're able to hoover up all the talent and fans from the smaller countries. Once that ball starts to roll its going to be hard to stop.

Wholeheartedly agree and this is the reason why I am particularly concerned with the AP. Also why i dont think they should be entertained at all. the last thing we need is greedy clubs having all the power.

profitius wrote:

There is another possibility that might happen - a British and Irish league (and Italian). It would be split into 2 divisions with promotion and relegation between the 2 divisions and it could still have promotion/relegation open to English second division clubs. Money could be evenly divided between leagues too to keep everyone happy and the HEC could be scaled down so the players are not overworked. No point looking at a European league because the French love the Top 14.

This would probably just end up over time having a concentration of rich clubs from England or capital cities and everyone else in the lower tier.

Guns, how in the world do you get from the PRL wanting a 20 team meritocratic entry to the HC -----> greedy AP are shooting for world domination at the expense of everyone? That's a hell of a leap.

fa0019 wrote:thebluesmancometh

I don't support any English club or English clubs in general. I live in Cape Town and support WP.

Lets not get into this rabo this and rabo that.... Its Ireland not the Rabo which is successful... if so Scottish and Welsh teams wouldn't do so badly as they do... Edinburgh wouldn't get thumped by 40 points vs. Saracens etc etc.

You made the suggestion... all I said was that I'd be happy at that but don't expect to get it all your own way as you can't have a phoney domestic league with 3 pro teams and the rest semi-pro like the domestic leagues you currently have... it would have to be a complete de-franchise and that would significantly reduce the strengths of various teams.

The whole discussion people have been having here today is that ENG posters are generally disasatisfied at generating money to be fed into other unions coffers to the detriment of themselves and thats something we in SA can appreciate.... as we suffer greatly from the same problem.

I believe in real competition where a club/union has the incentive to go out and be the masters of their own destiny.. if they build their side and market themselves properly then why shouldn't they reap the rewards.

Its the essence of the very problem held in feeder countries such as WAL, SCO and AUS. They don't bother developing their own clubs like others, their own game.... because they can rely on talent and revenue being generated by others. Their is no incentive to go out and work.

If AUS wanted to they could massively widen their appeal, same with Scotland.... they've just grown fat on other peoples money and take the short route every time. Its the same with players.... Ireland had a skills gap so rather than develop their own players they opened their cheque book and hijacked CJ Stander as a "project residency" player. Its pathetic.

Your last point has absolutely no relevance to this thread or any argument in it and is nothing short a sly dig at Ireland. I would be very much surprised if Stander plays for Ireland with the talent we have in the back row. Stander himself however said he was told he was too small to play international rugby in South Africa. I don't think Munster signed with an eye on him playing for Ireland, they just wanted a quality back rower for Munster.

If AUS wanted to they could massively widen their appeal, same with Scotland.... they've just grown fat on other peoples money and take the short route every time. Its the same with players.... Ireland had a skills gap so rather than develop their own players they opened their cheque book and hijacked CJ Stander as a "project residency" player. Its pathetic.



That says all I need to know mate cheers!!

I'm really tempted to start digging up facts about South Africa capping Zimbabweans like Brian Mujati and others but I'm not going to stoop to his level.

AlastairW wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:They want a scenario like the English soccer premiership where the rich grow richer and they're able to hoover up all the talent and fans from the smaller countries. Once that ball starts to roll its going to be hard to stop.

Wholeheartedly agree and this is the reason why I am particularly concerned with the AP. Also why i dont think they should be entertained at all. the last thing we need is greedy clubs having all the power.

profitius wrote:

There is another possibility that might happen - a British and Irish league (and Italian). It would be split into 2 divisions with promotion and relegation between the 2 divisions and it could still have promotion/relegation open to English second division clubs. Money could be evenly divided between leagues too to keep everyone happy and the HEC could be scaled down so the players are not overworked. No point looking at a European league because the French love the Top 14.

This would probably just end up over time having a concentration of rich clubs from England or capital cities and everyone else in the lower tier.

Guns, how in the world do you get from the PRL wanting a 20 team meritocratic entry to the HC -----> greedy AP are shooting for world domination at the expense of everyone? That's a hell of a leap.

Alistar because the majority of the APs requests will come at the expense of Italy and Scotland. They will get less representation and this will have a detrimental effect on the devrlopment and stability of European International rugby. Meanwhile the English teams will have the same representation which means more money spread over less teams.

Like I already said the fact that the RFU doesnt support the APLs stance says it all. The best thing thst can possibly happen is for either the APL to be taken over by the RFU or the AP teams to be left out in the cold for a year or so.

fa0019 wrote:Ireland had a skills gap so rather than develop their own players they opened their cheque book and hijacked CJ Stander as a "project residency" player. Its pathetic.

Merit walks...?

Artful_Dodger wrote:I'm really tempted to start digging up facts about South Africa capping Zimbabweans like Brian Mujati and others but I'm not going to stoop to his level.

You're welcome to do that mate, we have 3 million Zimbabweans in SA. They all come here for opportunties to make a living.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Ireland had a skills gap so rather than develop their own players they opened their cheque book and hijacked CJ Stander as a "project residency" player. Its pathetic.

Merit walks...?

There is no Evidence that Stander will play for Ireland until he does. Even if he does it isnt anything any other country hasnt done before.

SA robbed John Robbie on us so good luck to them.

If our group here on 606 mirrors the negotiators for all parties, then the Heineken Cup is truly doomed:
Party of the first part: England and France make a proposal to change the status quo. Therefore, England are evil and trying to gain unfair advantage.
Party of the second part: The Celtic/Italian block resist any change to the status quo. Therefore, they are trying to maintain unfair advantage.
Party of the first part: The other guys stink. And so do their parents.
Party of the second part: The other guys stink. And so do their parents.

See where this goes? Right down the rat hole.
There is nothing wrong with the English and French clubs wanting change. This is permissible by agreement and the two year notice enshrined in the agreement. Equally, there is nothing wrong with the Celtic/Italian block feeling the status quo works. But a compromise WILL be reached. Not because everyone loves each other, but because it makes good sense, business sense anyway.

However, to reach a new agreement, the emotions need to be parked at the kerb, right? We all know that negotiating positions are always extreme at the beginning. And that groups come together only when the clock starts ticking loudly.

I suppose most people are concerned that the negotiators will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. And ruin a competition we all enjoy thoroughly. Which is why emotions run high. But I feel an agreement will come. I have faith, even if most people don't.....

GunsGerms wrote:Alistar because the majority of the APs requests will come at the expense of Italy and Scotland. They will get less representation and this will have a detrimental effect on the devrlopment and stability of European International rugby. Meanwhile the English teams will have the same representation which means more money spread over less teams.

Like I already said the fact that the RFU doesnt support the APLs stance says it all. The best thing thst can possibly happen is for either the APL to be taken over by the RFU or the AP teams to be left out in the cold for a year or so.

But does Edinburgh being whipped every week, and Zebre being cricket scored add to the competition? I'd say no, I'd say it waters it down. I'd also say no to Sale being in there for that matter (based on currant domestic and HC form), it's not all about having to have as many clubs from my RU as possible.

Ireland and France are by far the best Unions at the moment, that can't be in doubt, but free passes for clubs that aren't performing and are drawing really low turn outs are not a boon to the HC at all. There must be representation from all 6N unions for sure, but as it stands there's a lot detracting from it.

Reduce the number of participants (Yes, English as well!) and make it proper top flight. There has been rumblings of ring fencing the money for clubs that would drop down into T2 if it's all about the expense/money issues, and fight their way back up. As for the 'leave out in the cold for a year or so', realistically that's bad for everyone, due to said bean counters, they'll not want to miss out on revenue. That about as realistic as the whole deal with SA crap, it'll never happen.

you seem fixated on the English. The FFR have also served notice, it's not all about the big bad English. Oddly, everyone wants a 6N top flight competition, just the currant format isn't seen as optimal by a few of the unions and I can see why.

GunsGerms wrote:SA robbed John Robbie on us so good luck to them.

Yeah we paid him with .........sunshine.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:SA robbed John Robbie on us so good luck to them.

Yeah we paid him with .........sunshine.

...... And zero Springbok caps.

You are of course right Doc... the other guy does stink. And a great beginning to any negotiation that truth generally is JOKE! for the oh so sensitive souls who might see that and lose control of their blood pressure.

On a slightly more serious note. Negotiation usually begins with a demand from one party or parites - they come together with those they are demanding something off. There is a lot of chat and coffee, there are step outs for a cigarette with strictly no talking to the media. There is a thing called compromise that begins to be mentioned as a way forward.

Compromise means one side gives something and the other side, in the spirit of negotiation, gives something too.

Now we know what is being asked of Pro12. What will AP and/or Top 14 be giving in return?

No, not more money - we have enough. We're happy with the money as it is. What are the AP and Top14 prepared to give in the art of compromise?

A drop in qualification places?
A change to how they choose to give out their HEC places that would take pressure off their own sides in striving to get them?

I just haven't heard yet what PRL are bringing to the compromise table. Not less demands on Pro12, not that, that's not compromise - something from them, something within their own power to give.

It's amazing that an article with only one quote ("big thinking") got this much response.

SecretFly wrote:You are of course right Doc... the other guy does stink. And a great beginning to any negotiation that truth generally is JOKE! for the oh so sensitive souls who might see that and lose control of their blood pressure.

On a slightly more serious note. Negotiation usually begins with a demand from one party or parites - they come together with those they are demanding something off. There is a lot of chat and coffee, there are step outs for a cigarette with strictly no talking to the media. There is a thing called compromise that begins to be mentioned as a way forward.

Compromise means one side gives something and the other side, in the spirit of negotiation, gives something too.

Now we know what is being asked of Pro12. What will AP and/or Top 14 be giving in return?

No, not more money - we have enough. We're happy with the money as it is. What are the AP and Top14 prepared to give in the art of compromise?

A drop in qualification places?
A change to how they choose to give out their HEC places that would take pressure off their own sides in striving to get them?

I just haven't heard yet what PRL are bringing to the compromise table. Not less demands on Pro12, not that, that's not compromise - something from them, something within their own power to give.

Continue to be in the competition. That's all they're offering.

Biltong wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I'm really tempted to start digging up facts about South Africa capping Zimbabweans like Brian Mujati and others but I'm not going to stoop to his level.

You're welcome to do that mate, we have 3 million Zimbabweans in SA. They all come here for opportunties to make a living.

Which is presumably why Stander came to Ireland after being told he had no international future in South Africa....

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I'm really tempted to start digging up facts about South Africa capping Zimbabweans like Brian Mujati and others but I'm not going to stoop to his level.

You're welcome to do that mate, we have 3 million Zimbabweans in SA. They all come here for opportunties to make a living.

Which is presumably why Stander came to Ireland after being told he had no international future in South Africa....

Stander went for the mo ey, don't let him fool you with "I was told I am not good enough or big enough."

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You are of course right Doc... the other guy does stink. And a great beginning to any negotiation that truth generally is JOKE! for the oh so sensitive souls who might see that and lose control of their blood pressure.

On a slightly more serious note. Negotiation usually begins with a demand from one party or parites - they come together with those they are demanding something off. There is a lot of chat and coffee, there are step outs for a cigarette with strictly no talking to the media. There is a thing called compromise that begins to be mentioned as a way forward.

Compromise means one side gives something and the other side, in the spirit of negotiation, gives something too.

Now we know what is being asked of Pro12. What will AP and/or Top 14 be giving in return?

No, not more money - we have enough. We're happy with the money as it is. What are the AP and Top14 prepared to give in the art of compromise?

A drop in qualification places?
A change to how they choose to give out their HEC places that would take pressure off their own sides in striving to get them?

I just haven't heard yet what PRL are bringing to the compromise table. Not less demands on Pro12, not that, that's not compromise - something from them, something within their own power to give.

Continue to be in the competition. That's all they're offering.

Shouldn't that be competitionS - the secondary and tertiary competitions are integral to the proposals and to consider the primary one in isolation is pretty stupid.

Wasps v Bayonne just about to start. Rokocoko, Heymans and Phillips up against Jones, Masi and Haskell. Plenty of challenging quality there (apart from Haskell, of course) - that's the level of opposition that the proposed secondary competition will bring in all the pool games.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Continue to be in the competition. That's all they're offering.

So they're the beautiful Princess we all want to be with? Okay, I get it.......... she's having a little difficulty with the seduction routine though. I think the suitors are on to the age old question "How are you in the kitchen, love? Can you cook?"

More like the prostitute who gave away a freebie and now wants to be paid. We'll see how desperate the other parties are to get in her pants by how much they pay (or if).

The French will sleep with anyone in a skirt, dubious livelihood or not, so you'll always have 'love' in your life.
Your moon is also in Venus and your lucky number today is 6.

Please call the number below for a more detailed reading:

Biltong wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I'm really tempted to start digging up facts about South Africa capping Zimbabweans like Brian Mujati and others but I'm not going to stoop to his level.

You're welcome to do that mate, we have 3 million Zimbabweans in SA. They all come here for opportunties to make a living.

Which is presumably why Stander came to Ireland after being told he had no international future in South Africa....

Stander went for the mo ey, don't let him fool you with "I was told I am not good enough or big enough."

Still don't see the difference in South Africa bringing in Zimbabweans and Namibians who want money and Ireland bringing in CJ Stander who wants money.

Correction - Munster bringing in CJ Stander who wants money.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I'm really tempted to start digging up facts about South Africa capping Zimbabweans like Brian Mujati and others but I'm not going to stoop to his level.

You're welcome to do that mate, we have 3 million Zimbabweans in SA. They all come here for opportunties to make a living.

Which is presumably why Stander came to Ireland after being told he had no international future in South Africa....

Stander went for the mo ey, don't let him fool you with "I was told I am not good enough or big enough."

Still don't see the difference in South Africa bringing in Zimbabweans and Namibians who want money and Ireland bringing in CJ Stander who wants money.

You seriously don't seethe difference?

You are comparing a country that has one of the best junior rugby programs in the world and developes and exports hundreds of qualified professional rugby players all over the world, to their neighbouring countries who collectively do not have a team strong enough if put together to challenge our Vodacom Cup teams?

Neighbouring countries who are invited to our Craven week for developing their school rugby, neighbouring countries who get invited to our Vodacom Cup?

Neighbouring countries who legally and illegally cross our borders in their millions to live a free and prosperous life?

Yes I see your argument Biltong, when South Africa take players from other countries South Africa are doing that country a favour. When Ireland take players from South Africa we are robbing South Africa of talent - no worries bud

Artful_Dodger wrote:Yes I see your argument Biltong, when South Africa take players from other countries South Africa are doing that country a favour. When Ireland take players from South Africa we are robbing South Africa of talent - no worries bud

South Africa don't "take" developed players mate, those few that do become Springboks were mostly schooled here (their parents send them here to be educated) only very few come here as recognised players, in total contradiction to where professional south african players get drawn by money and some with additional promises.

There is no comparison.

Spin it anyway you want. South Africa gives better opportunities to Zimbabweans like Mujati and Tendai "Beast" Mtawarira. Ireland gives better opportunities to Richardt Strauss and potentially CJ Stander - there is a clear comparison there.

Standers contract had to be signed off by the IRFU as a project player who commits to play for IRE once his residency has been completed... Lets not hide behind "Munster signed him not Ireland".

If he plays for Munster week in week out he won't be good enough to play for Ireland... Please, don't kid yourself... This kid is the real deal. He is an awesome tackler...missed a handful all season... I think he was the best tackler in SA in this years SR?.. It was him and kolisi both over 98% completed.

All this chat about him being too small for the boks is bull. He's 6'2 and 110kg. Stegmann, potgeiter, Coetzee and louw are all the same size. He probably would have gone on this years winter tour and probably would have been capped if he committed to the bulls.
If was good enough to be capped by SA on merit this season he would have been good enough to have been capped by IRE....The team with the largest number of world class backrow players to choose from in test rugby.

I don't blame the player, everyone has his price.

The difference between beast and stander..... Well their is no pro setup in Zimbabwe so he can't play pro rugby for any club. He could play for the national side although with the lack of funding and the political turmoil their game is in disarray... And it won't get better regardless of how many great players hail from the country.
Oh and most Zimbos go to SA because they are chased out in fear of death.... Usually because their family have been killed/beaten to an inch of their life.

Do you know that some Zimbos are so desperate to leave Zimbabwe that they are willing to cross the massive game reserves separating to 2 countries... Nothing special... Well nothing special bar the fact they are filled with lions and the packs have got now got accustomed to human flesh because of it... Get the picture, these people are willing to walk days through a lion infested park the size of Wales with a chance of being eaten alive just to get out of the country.

A bit different to someone who was offered a cheque the size of a gold bar.... Rather than someone who is just happy to have a job/be alive.