India vs England 2nd T20 match thread

[Liam]

First topic message reminder :

Thought i'd set up a new page for the game today starting at 1:30. I'm predicting an India win unfortunately.

[mystiroakey]

yeah would love to see him back in the test side- but i think he needed to just play abit more fc (rather than going ipl etc) and it was almost garanteed- is he doing enough to be considered?

[ShankyCricket]

Morgan averaged 18 in the last county season. Both Root and Bairstow have strong cases for Test selection. Can't believe people want Morgan back in Tests.

[Dave.]

It was more a comment on that if Ireland were to get Test status, we might get him playing for us! And I'd want him playing Test cricket for Ireland, oh yes.

I don't blame any of the Irish guys wanting to play for England in the meantime.

[ShankyCricket]

Not talking about you, sorry.

[ShankyCricket]

I don't see Morgan moving back to Ireland btw.

[mystiroakey]

well no he wont..he us an englandd player end of. and i think he will be trying to get back involved at test level

[trebellbobaggins]

Fair play to them for turning that around. Went out and they had blown it. That's quite the turn around.

Does more for England to have a second string winning than for India failing to experiment and then losing anyway.

[Shelsey93]

Seems like Dhoni missed a trick by not bringing Ashwin on against Lumb. He's enjoying the pace on the ball here. This is turning out to be a fine start for England already.

That was most bizarre. My only theory is that India were viewing this as preparation for the much-hyped Pakistan matches, and wanted to see if Dinda and Awana are good enough. My verdict is sadly no on Dinda - I was distinctly unimpressed with an experienced bowler (in terms of age) throwing it half way down at the pace he bowls. Awana has potential, but might be better in the long form. His fielding is utterly shocking though.

Its amazing how england struggle against what are really pretty average spinners at times

I've always thought Yuvraj is a bit better than a part-timer. A lot of England's issues against spin have been against the ball skidding on, rather than necessarily against turn. Don't know why but they have been.

So impressed by Hales though, hes really taken to international cricket. Love to see him in the 50 overs side.

I personally think Hales has a lot of work to do to play ODIs. I want batsmen that can score 100s regularly at the top, and I don't think he's in that class yet. Cook, Bell, Trott and KP are a fine top 4. Ultimately I feel Hales might be a bit of a frustrating player - I hope not, but I fear so.

Not sure I'd have had Patel in before Butler today. Apart from anything else , running between wickets is so important now.

Agreed. I think Patel's on very thin ice now they seem to have decided his bowling isn't good enough to be second spinner. Although he is a good batsman, I don't see him as amongst the best 6 in any format.

[teassoc]

Unless Kohli is going to bowl , Dhoni has to go back to his pace men now though...ten per over is still on.
Need Morgan to stay in

Well done for keeping your nerve whilst everyone else seemed to be throwing in their towel.

[mystiroakey]

Patel is your bits and pieces, we had a period of trying loads out a few years back- I suppose for some reason we want a replacement collingwood!!

probally time to forget about bits and pieces tbh- well untill a proper all rounder comes along!

[mystiroakey]

A most deserving winner. However he made me laugh most when he actually broke character and went ott about NZ..

Anyway i do kinda miss him. It was all fun and games!

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

A most deserving winner. However he made me laugh most when he actually broke character and went ott about NZ..

Anyway i do kinda miss him. It was all fun and games!

Wrong thread mystiri?

[mystiroakey]

errr..

i was wondering where that post went

[ShankyCricket]

I personally think Hales has a lot of work to do to play ODIs. I want batsmen that can score 100s regularly at the top, and I don't think he's in that class yet. Cook, Bell, Trott and KP are a fine top 4. Ultimately I feel Hales might be a bit of a frustrating player - I hope not, but I fear so.

Bell has 2 ODI hundreds in something like 120 ODIs. And none outside Southampton. Not exactly what I'd call as "scoring 100s regularly". Bell had a great summer but that has always been the case. His problem is overseas. He averages 46 at home and 28 away in ODIs (thats an alarmingly huge difference) and his record in Australia (of course the main host nation for the next WC) is distinctly average. I'm more than happy to give him the India and possibly NZ series to see whether he can replicate his home form in other countries but if he doesn't do that, Hales time. Hales does have a List A best of 150*. So he can indeed play long innings. That top 3 (Cook Bell Trott) might work for us at home in the Champs Trophy but I very much doubt its gonna work Down Under for the WC. Less swing, bouncier tracks. Hales would be perfect in OZ tbh.

[mystiroakey]

odi should be cook and kp opening for me.. The game is getting more batter friendly - we need RR up from the off.. Bell/hales/trott coming in at 3 strikes a good balance..

I would just love to see Prior given another go at the format- His form in ODI's isnt logical..

[Shelsey93]

Shanky, we need to forget about the ODIs Bell played before this summer. He wasn't confident enough when opening, and when he was confident was often put down the order.

This summer he had a stunning record.

And mysti, ODIs aren't becoming more batter-friendly. They are becoming more bowler-friendly in the first 15 overs, with a greater proportion of runs scored in the last 15. England have won all but 2 ODIs in 2012, including v SA and in UAE. Don't understand why people are so keen to deconstruct a winning formula.

[mystiroakey]

Averages are going up and up shelsey.. Average total scores are also going up and up as are RR's. Move with the times, never stay stagnant!

[Shelsey93]

Averages are going up and up shelsey.. Average total scores are also going up and up as are RR's. Move with the times, never stay stagnant!

Look at the stats and you'll probably find they aren't, at least not in the first 15 overs. A lot of runs are made up in the last 15. That becomes harder if you lose early wickets. Bell isn't exactly a plodder anyway - he's good at finding the gaps early on in ODIs.

Two new balls has been a major factor.

[mystiroakey]

maybe I will check em out when not drunk-- thats probally gonna be the 2nd of jan!!

happy crimbo

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I guess where Hales suffers for ODI selection is that England have Cook, Bell, Trott, KP and Morgan all as batsmen who are no more than very occasional bowling options...with Bairstow and Taylor also pressing for inclusion offering more of the same we see guys like Patel and Bopara getting in ahead of him simply because England need at least 5 bowlers capable of delivering 10 proper overs.

Looking at the established guys figures Bell is way behind the others till last year

Trott 49 at 0.79
KP 41 at 0.86
Morgan 40 at 0.84
Cook 40 at 0.79
Bell 36 at 0.75 (but 2012 was 55 at 0.82)

I guess right now its hard to see a side that isnt based around those 5 plus a keeper and 5 bowlers. Bell does need to prove that this year wasnt a flash in the pan, because the vast majority of his ODI career has been Bopara without the bowling.
I dont really see England ever being a 300 plus side, but theyve based their revival on always making enough to be competitive and having strong bowlers. Broad and Finn missing though could be an issue for that...especially with Swann back home looking after his cat and Anderson only around for the first two games.
They need Yuvraj Singh (limited overs version) instead of Patel/Wright/Bopara

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'm really not a fan of Patel. I like the guy and understand he has improved over the last season but I just don't think he is up to it batting wise and if he's not going to chip in with some wickets in the bowling department I wouldn't have him in the side

Much rather get Bairstow or Taylor in there

[gboycottnut]

Patel is your bits and pieces, we had a period of trying loads out a few years back- I suppose for some reason we want a replacement collingwood!!

probally time to forget about bits and pieces tbh- well untill a proper all rounder comes along!

Isn't Luke Wright a proper all-rounder and our own answer to Australia's Shane Watson, just as Watson himself was Australia's answer to Andrew Flintoff after the 2nd Lords test match during the 2009 ashes test series in England.

[Shelsey93]

Peter, looking at recent ODIs I don't think that scoring 300+ is the key to success. If we bat well in good conditions we will score 300+ anyway. But going out to do so on every occasion is likely to lead to inconsistency.

Our bowling is amongst the best in this form of the game (at least when Anderson, Finn and Swann are playing) so we don't need to make the massive totals in order to win games that India do.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Peter, looking at recent ODIs I don't think that scoring 300+ is the key to success. If we bat well in good conditions we will score 300+ anyway. But going out to do so on every occasion is likely to lead to inconsistency.

Our bowling is amongst the best in this form of the game (at least when Anderson, Finn and Swann are playing) so we don't need to make the massive totals in order to win games that India do.

The second paragraph I agree with but the first hasnnt been borne out over the last few years. Englands score of 300+ have been very few, and they havent always won when theyve made them. They have however won the enormous majority of games where they scored 250 plus. looking at 2010 onwards of the 6 highest totals theyve reached they only won 2 of the games (one of which was Bangladesh)!
Highest score of this year was 288, but they had a very good winning record.
For England getting a challenging score and limiting the opposition even on batting pitches has been the key to their improvement , rather than knocking up 400. They dont really have players as destructive as say the Windies batting order, but do have solidity and play a fairly consertaive plan to make sure they are almost always in the game whether batting first or second.
If they wanted to up the rates the likes of Hales coming in for Bell or Trott would be the way to go, but it would carry a higher risk (unless Bell loses his magic again)

[ShankyCricket]

Shanky, we need to forget about the ODIs Bell played before this summer. He wasn't confident enough when opening, and when he was confident was often put down the order.

This summer he had a stunning record.

And mysti, ODIs aren't becoming more batter-friendly. They are becoming more bowler-friendly in the first 15 overs, with a greater proportion of runs scored in the last 15. England have won all but 2 ODIs in 2012, including v SA and in UAE. Don't understand why people are so keen to deconstruct a winning formula.

Not really true, tbh. He has always been good at home. Averaged 42 at home prior to this summer. Even this summer, I am not quite sure I'd call it "great". Yes, he has a great average. But barring a couple of games, his S/R has been in the 60s and 70s. It didn't matter as they were low scoring but I'm honestly unconvinced that Ian Bell is the player I'd like to have in the side on pitches where 300 is the par score. He deserves a chance to prove himself based on his summer form and I'll give him the India as well as NZ series for that but I'll stop short of saying he has cracked it. Not yet. Still has a lot to prove, sorry.

[ShankyCricket]

Peter, looking at recent ODIs I don't think that scoring 300+ is the key to success. If we bat well in good conditions we will score 300+ anyway. But going out to do so on every occasion is likely to lead to inconsistency.

Our bowling is amongst the best in this form of the game (at least when Anderson, Finn and Swann are playing) so we don't need to make the massive totals in order to win games that India do.

On flat tracks, even good attacks get canned. To go into an ODI thinking it will definitely be a low scoring game and that we don't need to post big scores is fraught with danger. Thats a very one dimensional approach. I'd rather have a back up plan.

[Mike Selig]

Evening all. Computer's been on the blink and away on hols so limited commentary recently (probably a relief to most...).

I like Hales, always have from the first I saw of him in an England shirt. The mental side of his game seems in good order, he's a quick learner as Shanky has said, he has a good range of strokes and no obvious technical weakness.

With KP, Hales and Morgan in the top 4, England have some good batting in T20. Luke Wright is ok at 3 with that order, because if he comes off he'll add something, and if he doesn't there should be enough to cover for him. If there were any other obvious better options then great (perhaps Stirling - yes another Ireland lad - in a few years time) but at the moment I think he'll do: good fielder and offers a few overs with the ball if necessary. Buttler seems to be settling into the finishing role nicely at 6, and his keeping may be good enough there as well.

That leaves the number 5 slot, where frankly England have a bit of a problem. I'm not Patel's biggest critic, but if he has a job to play with England it's very much as a bits and pieces player, I just can't see how his batting is good enough to play in such a crucial position. If England want to go with him at 7, then that's fair enough (although 5 bowlers may be the better option). I'm not sure what the solution is either (Root and Bairstow also have their problems), but England will need to find one soon enough.

The bowling: Finn, Broad and Swann are probably England's top 3, then you need to worry about a second spinner and between Dernbach, Meaker and Bresnan for the 3rd seamer. All have their pluses and minuses.

I don't think Bell has done anything warranting him being dropped from the ODI side, so as of yet, he stays, but Hales is an option as well.

Unlike shanky, I do think Morgan could make a good fist of test cricket, basicallly because he's got such a good temperament, but he has some technical issues which he may still need to sort out. I'm not fussed about his first class record. He clearly wants to get back into the test frame, but is behind in the pecking order right now.

[alfie]

Pretty much agree with Mike's summary of the limited overs batting options. I suppose in the t20 you could retain Lumb at the top which allows the others to move down one and so no need for Patel at five...but really with all the short form matches played there is no need to have one perfect lineup , for one reason or another the same team will never play more than a game or two in a row. So , for example , Hales will surely get an opportunity to stake his claim at the fifty over game soon enough , and even if he doesn't do enough to replace Bell in the preferred eleven he may yet win a spot in the World Cup squad

Even more so for the bowlers , spares always required so the more the likes of Meaker and other marginal candidates get a chance to show what they can do the better : you can have your best eleven all nicely sorted and lose a key bowler to injury at the last minute , so I'd like to see a potential bowling squad including at least two spares of each type with a reasonable amount of international experience before the Cup.

[ShankyCricket]

Never said Morgan doesn't have the potential. Just feel he hasn't done anywhere near enough to be picked in Tests at the moment. I'm not that bothered about the overall fc record but he has to show his fc credentials by playing a great knock or two under adverse situations against a top county attack on a tough wicket. Thats what Tres was selected on. He didn't have a great record overall but Fletch saw him play a fantastic knock under difficult conditions in FC Cricket and picked him. I'm absolutely fine with that. But Morgan's selection seems to be purely based on ODI/T20 performances. Now I had accepted his selection when he was first selected in the test side but he was dropped for under performing and it was rather evident that he had some blantantly obvious technical flaws which would be feasted upon by test attacks. My main issue is that there is no evidence to base his recall on. I believe dropped players must show improvement to earn a recall. Morgan hasn't done that.

[Shelsey93]

The other thing is that at the time Vaughan/ Trescothick were picked every player with good FC stats had been tried and failed. In some ways it was inevitable that a couple of the many that were picked would come off. Remember that Usman Afzaal, Aftab Habib, Ian Ward, Ed Smith, Chris Adams, Gavin Hamilton and countless others were also chosen, and couldn't do the job.

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