Greatest: Round 2: Choose your 15

Rules and context here: https://www.606v2.com/t38622-the-greatest-introduction-the-rules

Your shortlist (in no particular order):

1. Christian Cullen
New Zealand – 58 caps

Started breaking NZ scoring records in the Hong Kong 7s (an unprecedented 18 tries in one single tournament, including 7 in one match), he became the finest broken field runner of his generation. His 'try per test' rate is an astonishing 0.79 tries per test (compare this to Underwood's 0.53 and Campese's 0.63). Where Cullen started in the side, the All Blacks lost only once in the 22 tests from his debut. In his prime, genuinely unplayable.

Cullen remains the all-time leading try scorer in a single series of the Tri-Nations/Rugby Championship with 16. He was also the first player to score a try in every Tri-Nations test in one season. He scored in excess of 150 first-class tries whilst in New Zealand and is still the third highest tryscorer in the history of Super rugby with 56 tries, behind only Joe Roff and Doug Howlett.

Sample Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0945lQKP7I

2. JPR Williams
British & Irish Lions – 8 caps, Wales – 55 caps

Not many rugby legends also qualified for Junior Wimbledon and beat David Lloyd at tennis, but John Peter Rhys Williams has never been an ordinary sportsman. He was a key player in a Welsh side that won Grand Slams in 1971, 1976, and 1978 (with Triple Crowns in 1969, 1971, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979), and is particularly remembered for his record against England. In 10 tests between Wales and England he scored five tries - incredible for a fullback - and was never on the losing side. His 55 caps dealt 37 wins, 4 draws, and 14 defeats which is tremendous considering the quality of the opposition.

It is perhaps his performances for the British and Irish Lions for which he will be best remembered, winning the 1971 series against New Zealand with a long-range drop-goal and playing a major role in the 1974 'invincible' series against South Africa. At the 'Battle of Boet Erasmus Stadium', in Port Elizabeth, one of the most violent matches in rugby history, the footage of JPR running over half of the pitch to land a right hook on the gigantic lock Moaner van Heerden is part of rugby lore.

Sample Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGkEK3F1COU

3. Chris Latham
Australia – 78 caps

Chris Latham is Australia's most-capped fullback and, with 40 tries, their second highest all time try scorer after David Campese.

He is second on the list of all time World Cup try scorers with 11, but Latham missed out on the 2003 final in Australia to league convert Mat Rogers as England claimed the Webb Ellis Cup. He hit his peak after that event, winning his place in 2004 and his 50th cap against Scotland that year. In 2005 he won Super 14 player of the year for the fourth time.

A stunning strike runner with superb balance and safe hands (and one of the first pro players to use video technology to study games afterwards in order to improve his running lines), Latham claimed the John Eales Medal in 2006 (the first backline player to receive it) after an amazing year in which he vice-captained the Wallabies twice and scored five tries and while he underwent knee surgery which ruled him out of the Reds season, he returned to start all of Australia's five World Cup matches in France.

In 2008, everyone's favourite grumpy uncle Stephen Jones, chief rugby correspondent for The Times and The Sunday Times, rated Latham as the finest fullback he has ever seen.

Sample Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP6KCsXTWTw

Has to be Cullen for me, in his prime he was exceptional. I never had the pleasure of seeing JPR play and simply rate Cullen as slightly better at what he did than Latham was.

If there was ever some way of judging talent fairly across different eras, which due to styles of play/training etc seems impossible, I expect Cullen, JPR and George Nepia would come out on top. With no footage of Nepia realistically available I think we've done pretty well to get those three as a group.

Cheers for running the threads GC

Out Of the 3 players that you have named. I would probably go for Chris Latham. I used to like his running lines and attack lines.

But my own personal be 15 would be Serge Blanco.

Toss up between Cullen and JPR. Went with JPR in the end

JPR for me is the best XV there ever has beenand he had everything, though I loved watching Cullen and Blanco.

These threads are all age dependant IMO and judging by the gap in votes I think there are a lot more youngsters on here than old buggers like me lol

Cullen had the pace, the running but JPR had the the all round game. One of the finest defenders and attackers we have ever seen.

Cullen.

I think memories of how good JPR was become more and more rose-tinted over time. Lots of players of that era fall into that category and imo just get voted automatically on polls.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Cullen.

I think memories of how good JPR was become more and more rose-tinted over time. Lots of players of that era fall into that category and imo just get voted automatically on polls.

Rose tinted my aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarse

I tend to agree that players from the sepia tinted era tend do get overly bigged up whereas guys from the here and now (for instance Muliaina or Dagg or Beale) don't get a look in simply because we haven't had long enough for the reputation to ferment even though (as an example) mils won everything there is to win.

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:

I tend to agree that players from the sepia tinted era tend do get overly bigged up whereas guys from the here and now (for instance Muliaina or Dagg or Beale) don't get a look in simply because we haven't had long enough for the reputation to ferment even though (as an example) mils won everything there is to win.

Likewise players from the past who have won everything there was to win, like JPR.

GS 1971, 1976, and 1978

Lions beat the ABs winning the series with a drop goal in '71, beat the Boks in '74.

Cullen for me.

46 tries in 56 test matches is quite unbelievable for a fullback.

JPR great player & character scored 12 in 55.

Always difficult comparing eras but that stat alone cannot be ignored.

As in any lists of this nature, 'choosing' between all time greats comes down to subjective personal choice. An art rather than a science. Splitting hairs between players who all excelled at the game of rugby football.

Having said that, even in the rarefied air of the 'greatest' lists, two players stand head and shoulders above even this company of legends. Not reliant on freakish genetics or outlandish pace or power (although both had more than their fair share of speed and strength) to make their mark, they were, rather, as close to perfection in terms of pure 'rugby players' as we will ever see.

One is Richard Hill, of course.

The other is Christian Cullen.

maestegmafia wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:

I tend to agree that players from the sepia tinted era tend do get overly bigged up whereas guys from the here and now (for instance Muliaina or Dagg or Beale) don't get a look in simply because we haven't had long enough for the reputation to ferment even though (as an example) mils won everything there is to win.

Likewise players from the past who have won everything there was to win, like JPR.

GS 1971, 1976, and 1978

Lions beat the ABs winning the series with a drop goal in '71, beat the Boks in '74.

At least the Lion's had won a test series in S Africa by 1974

rainbow-warrior wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:

I tend to agree that players from the sepia tinted era tend do get overly bigged up whereas guys from the here and now (for instance Muliaina or Dagg or Beale) don't get a look in simply because we haven't had long enough for the reputation to ferment even though (as an example) mils won everything there is to win.

Likewise players from the past who have won everything there was to win, like JPR.

GS 1971, 1976, and 1978

Lions beat the ABs winning the series with a drop goal in '71, beat the Boks in '74.

At least the Lion's had won a test series in S Africa by 1974

Yes and since then its honours even, two to the Lions and two to the Boks.

maestegmafia wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:

I tend to agree that players from the sepia tinted era tend do get overly bigged up whereas guys from the here and now (for instance Muliaina or Dagg or Beale) don't get a look in simply because we haven't had long enough for the reputation to ferment even though (as an example) mils won everything there is to win.

Likewise players from the past who have won everything there was to win, like JPR.

GS 1971, 1976, and 1978

Lions beat the ABs winning the series with a drop goal in '71, beat the Boks in '74.

At least the Lion's had won a test series in S Africa by 1974

Yes and since then its honours even, two to the Lions and two to the Boks.

Yup and it took NZ til 1996 to win a series over there

Good to see Cullen is clearly the frontrunner.

Maybe people don't just look back with too much fondness (and just choose players from their own 'country') after all.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:

I tend to agree that players from the sepia tinted era tend do get overly bigged up whereas guys from the here and now (for instance Muliaina or Dagg or Beale) don't get a look in simply because we haven't had long enough for the reputation to ferment even though (as an example) mils won everything there is to win.

Likewise players from the past who have won everything there was to win, like JPR.

GS 1971, 1976, and 1978

Lions beat the ABs winning the series with a drop goal in '71, beat the Boks in '74.

At least the Lion's had won a test series in S Africa by 1974

Yes and since then its honours even, two to the Lions and two to the Boks.

Yup and it took NZ til 1996 to win a series over there

Well, the Lions were allowed to compete using their *rich* players. The All Blacks had to leave there *rich* players at home until the re-introduction. Since then NZ have dominated. How have the Lions done?

Cullen's unbelievable strike rate gives him the edge over Latham for me and unfortunately I just haven't seen enough of the legend that is JPR Williams to judge him properly

Horses for courses. You probably hav to look at the overall team selection and decide what sale you want to play.

I'd rate Cullen as a broken field attacker but Latham for a more structured defence orientated game. JPR if the match was going to be played in sepia tone with a waterlogged pigskin.

gg for ever the sad sad wum

I'd also have Dagg over Cullen in todays environment. Dagg has the ability to regularly beat the very best of todays defences- slip them so to speak where there looks like theres no room. Cullen did have a bit more room to move and Dagg is probably quicker from standing. Dagg will be heading these lists by the time the next world cup rolls around. Has no weaknesses in defence, and is supreme under the high ball. Has a huge punt and can attack the best lines around. What more could you want in a FB?

Still JPR for me

Can't believe Latham is not getting more votes, Cullen was a great attacking fullback, but defensively Latham were much better, his kicking was decent and as an attacking force as good.

Positional play was also top class.

I wonder how much "leaving them wanting more" contributes to a players retrospective greatness. For example mils muliaina was a great but played on beyond his due date and was frustratingly slowly usurped by Dagg and probably remembered more keenly for his later staunchly reliable efforts rather than his earlier blistering and breath taking displays, I wonder if Latham isn't in the same category.

Is JPR sullied by his famously unpalatable personality? I realise he is adored within Wales and rightly so, but is his lack of international uptake purely professional?