Greatest: Round 2: Choose your 10

Rules and context here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38622-the-greatest-introduction-the-rules

Previous threads here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38819-greatest-round-2-choose-your-15#1753473
https://www.606v2.com/t38887-greatest-round-2-choose-your-11-14
https://www.606v2.com/t38898-greatest-round-2-choose-your-13
https://www.606v2.com/t38921-greatest-round-2-choose-your-12

Brief:
• Vote for one player only in the fly half position.
• Votes are cancellable so in the event that it seems the votes for the 9 candidate are going in a certain direction, feel free to change your choice if you feel another player would complement the scrum half better.
• It can be assumed that players in the amateur era would have been just as dominant vis a vis their historical peers if they had followed professional conditioning programmes.

Your shortlist (in no particular order):

1. Barry John
British & Irish Lions – 5 caps, Wales – 25 caps

It is not an exaggeration to say that John was rugby's first superstar, the oval ball's George Best, whose star shone brightest as he piloted the Lions to their first and only series victory in New Zealand , in 1971. Not for nothing did the Kiwi press nickname Barry John 'The King'.

In 1971 the Wales national team entered what is considered their second 'Golden Age', with a team rich in experience and talent. John was part of the team that won the 1971 Five Nations Championship, the first time Wales had achieved a Grand Slam win since 1952 and for a short time was a key part of a Welsh side that swept all before it in Europe. It is for the Lions, however, that John will be best remembered.

South Africa were the first Lions opposition to catch on to the stand-off's elusive genius, singling out he and Gareth Edwards as the men to stop by any means necessary early on in the 1968 tour. With his mesmeric side-step having instantly captured the rugby public's imagination, John's battle with the Springbok back row greats Jan Ellis and Piet Greyling was eagerly awaited. Sadly, it lasted only a quarter of an hour. Making his second break of the first Test, John raced for the line, only for Ellis's desperate tackle to break the Welshman's collar-bone as he landed on the hard ground. While John ended his first Lions tour as a casualty, in his second it was he who inflicted the damage as the tourists beat New Zealand 2-1, with the final Test drawn.

At 5'9" tall and weighing less than 12 stone, John's advantage over his opponents was always based on skill rather than strength, although the fact that only John Dawes and Ian McLauchlan played more games than him on the 1971 tour testifies to his durability.

Like almost all sporting greats, John's self-confidence and self-belief bordered on arrogance, but, pricelessly, rubbed off on the players around him and enabled him to try - and execute - things others would never attempt. The 71 Lions tour was his swansong and his greatest achievement. He scored a record 191 points in his 17 matches and 30 of the Lions' Test total of 48. He masterminded the 47-9 destruction of champion province Wellington and scored against New Zealand Universities a try so sublime it was greeted by a second of total silence while the crowd did a collective double-take at what they had witnessed.

He sat on the ball and taunted his opponents with sleight of hand in protest at the foul play of Hawkes Bay, and he bombed full-back Fergie McCormick out of the All Blacks team with his precise peppering of the corner flags in the opening international. His control over the ball out of hand was unparalleled and many commentators have pointed out that such control existed before the modern breed of ball found its way on to the park (waterproofed with laminate, with dimpled surfaces for grip, unobtrusive lacing and multi panels).

He even knew how to make an exit. At the tender age of 27 and “tired of living in a goldfish bowl”, John retired.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVK1XU8k2AA

2. Jonny Wilkinson
British & Irish Lions – 6 caps, England – 91 caps

Jonathan Peter Wilkinson will forever be remembered as the man who kicked England to Rugby World Cup glory in Australia in 2003 - slotting a last-gasp drop goal in extra-time to edge out the hosts in a thrilling tournament finale. Regularly a left-footer, the talented fly-half smacked over the memorable kick with his right foot to cement his place in English sporting history. That moment is just one highlight of a record-breaking career that has seen Wilkinson rise to one of the sport's all-time greats. His is a complete stand off skillset.

Wilkinson won his first cap against Ireland on April 4, 1998 aged 18 years and 314 days to become England's second youngest player - narrowly missing the record held by Harlequins' Colin Laird who debuted in 1927 aged 18 years and 124 days. A young Wilkinson was a member of the England touring party that endured the so-called 'Tour of Hell' in 1998 that saw them suffer heavily at the hands of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. But it proved to be a learning experience for Wilkinson, and by the end of 2001 he had eclipsed the England Test points record of 396 held until then by his mentor Rob Andrew.

In March 2008, he became the all-time leading Test points scorer, overtaking Wales' Neil Jenkins. His first converted penalty against Scotland at Murrayfield, took him three points past Jenkins' tally of 1090 Test rugby points. This achievement came a little earlier than expected after the IRB granted full Test status to the 2005 British and Irish Lions warm-up Test against Argentina.

Wilkinson also scored a record 29th Test drop goal against France in the 2008 Six Nations Championship - surpassing the record he had shared with Argentine legend Hugo Porta. He also holds the Rugby World Cup points record with 249, capturing the record previously held by Scotland's Gavin Hastings during England's 2007 quarter-final victory over Australia. He is also the only player to score points in two Rugby World Cup finals - scoring four penalties and that famous drop goal in the 2003 victory over Australia and two penalties in the 15-6 loss to South Africa in 2007. He has also toured with the British & Irish Lions twice - to Australia in 2001 and New Zealand in 2005 scoring 67 Test points in the 6 Lions Test matches he has started.

Following that memorable night in Sydney in 2003, Wilkinson's career was blighted by injury. Knee ligament, arm, shoulder and kidney problems meant he did not appear again for England until 1,169 days later in their opening game of the 2007 Six Nations Championship against Scotland on 3 February 2007. In his comeback England match, Wilkinson scored a Calcutta Cup record of 27 points in a Man-of-the-Match performance. The following week against Italy, he became the highest point-scorer in the history of the Five/Six Nations Championship. Injury problems returned later that year but he battled back to be part of England Rugby World Cup squad that surprised many as they made their way to the final where they were beaten by the Springboks.

He returned to the international stage at the end of 2009 and retained his place for the 2010 Six Nations during which time he eclipsed Ireland's Ronan O'Gara as the all-time leading scorer in Championship history. But question marks over his form saw him dropped for only the third time in his career for the final clash with France. He toured Australia that summer but shoulder injury would sideline him for the end of year internationals as Toby Flood cemented his place in the side. Wilkinson was forced to adapt to a supporting role but he continued to have an impact on proceedings - landing a long-range penalty with his first touch during the Six Nations victory over France in 2011 which also saw him reclaim the all-time Test points record that he had previously lost to New Zealand's Dan Carter.

On December 12, 2011, Wilkinson announced his retirement from international rugby and will focus on his club career with Toulon, where he has become a firm press and fan favourite.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezSXeagn0Mg

3. Daniel Carter
New Zealand – 94 caps

Daniel William Carter is arguably the best fly-half in the modern game and his reputation and subsequent fame transcends both hemispheres. He is the most accomplished and garlanded 10 in the modern era and the All Blacks' leading all-time Test points-scorer, having eclipsed the previous mark of Andrew Mehrtens.

After making his Super Rugby debut for the Crusaders in 2003, he became an All Black that same year, displaying huge talent at the tender age of 21. The Canterbury-native made an impressive international debut at inside centre against Wales on June 21, scoring a try, six conversions and a penalty in New Zealand's crushing 55-3 win in Hamilton. Carter was then included in New Zealand's 2003 Rugby World Cup squad where he first came to the attention of the wider international rugby audience - despite being a bit-part player in the latter stages of the All Blacks' campaign that ended with a semi-final defeat to Australia.

He bounced back from that disappointment the following year with a series of strong performances and he finally made the switch to fly-half at the end of the year, displacing Carlos Spencer. The following year brought the challenge of the British & Irish Lions and it was one that Carter rose to. He notched 11 points in the 21-3 1st Test victory but it was his performance in the series-clinching 2nd Test triumph in Wellington that catapulted him to a new level of excellence. He scored two tries, five penalties, and four conversions to end the match with 33 points, smashing the previous All Blacks record of 18 points in a Lions Test. His total of 44 points in two Tests against the 2005 Lions left his just two points shy of the most points scored by any player in all Tests against the Lions and injury ruled him out of the final Test.

After a standout year, that also included victory in the Tri Nations, Carter was named 2005 IRB Player of the Year, and New Zealand's Player of the Year. The following year brought further reward for Carter and New Zealand with a third successive Tri Nations crown and the All Blacks entered the Rugby World Cup as favourites. But Carter had to share in the blame for the All Blacks' worst ever World Cup showing after they crashed out in the quarter-finals at the hands of hosts France. The All Blacks bounced back to form with Carter at the heart of another Tri-Nations success in 2008 that was followed by another Grand Slam end of year tour.

Carter's provincial career is equally impressive during a dominant era for the Crusaders. The accomplished Carter reached the final of the competition with the Crusaders in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2008. Although they lost the 2003 and 2004 finals, by 2005 he had moved to fly-half and inspired a prolific run for the Canterbury-based franchise that included three titles in four years. In the 2006 season Carter scored the most individual points for a player in one season with 221.

In April 2008 it was reported that Carter was considering a lucrative move to the northern hemisphere, a move that would add to a worrying player drain from New Zealand. Fearing the loss of another of their stars, Carter was granted a sabbatical by the New Zealand Rugby Union as part of a new contract. In the face of a host of reported offers, Carter subsequently signed a seven-month contract with French Top 14 side Perpignan, worth a reported £500,000, and joined the team after the All Blacks' end of year Grand Slam tour. But his sojourn was brought to a premature end after just five games due to the recurrence of an Achilles tendon injury in February. He was forced to watch from the sidelines as his side went on to claim the Top 14 crown.

After briefly contemplating offers from elsewhere in New Zealand, Carter re-signed with Canterbury and the Crusaders. In 2010, Carter achieved another career milestone when he passed the 1,000 points marker in Super Rugby and later eclipsed Australian Stirling Mortlock as the all-time leading points scorer in Super Rugby history. After guiding the All Blacks to their 10th Tri-Nations title with a win over South Africa in Soweto, Carter announced that he would undergo ankle surgery, resulting in an eight-week lay-off. He returned to action for the end of year tour and helped propel the All Blacks to a Grand Slam tour of the UK & Ireland. In the process he also became the all-time leading scorer in Test rugby with his 12-point haul in the final game against Wales carrying him past the mark of England's Jonny Wilkinson.

With the 2011 Rugby World Cup approaching, speculation over Carter's playing future re-surfaced but in a major boost for New Zealand rugby he shunned several overseas offers to re-sign with the NZRU in a four-year deal that includes the option of another sabbatical. Carter hoped to celebrate his new deal by inspiring the All Blacks to World Cup glory. However, his hopes of doing so were dashed by a groin injury he suffered in training on the eve of his side's final pool game, against Canada.

But he pulled on the black shirt once again for the 2012 Rugby Championship and helped guide the All Blacks to a clean-sweep of the competition. He was later honoured as the 2012 IRB Player of the Year and joined Richie McCaw as a multi-award winner.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYKthRmMjKo

Johnny Wilkinson for me.

Earl Rose.

Mark Ella.

I still can't believe he quit at 25. Way, way ahead of his time.

From the list however, Carter, John.... daylight... then Wilko.

Carter by a country mile!

Carter

Barry John

Linebreaker wrote:Mark Ella.

I still can't believe he quit at 25. Way, way ahead of his time.

From the list however, Carter, John.... daylight... then Wilko.

I am amazed Wilkinson made the list. Good goal kicker in his day but nothing more.

Wilkos tackling was up there with the best, maybe if he was welsh there might be more appreciation from you Maes?

Toulon have the money to buy the best - money talks.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:maybe if he was welsh there might be more appreciation from you Maes?

Maybe if he wasn't English.

Biltong wrote:You guys do realise how petty you are?

Describing Wilkinson as "a good kicker in his day but nothing more" is a statement that needs to be challenged. It's either someone on the wind-up, having little knowledge of rugby or simply doesn't like players from a certain nation. Of course, it could be more than one of those things.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:You guys do realise how petty you are?

Describing Wilkinson as "a good kicker in his day but nothing more" is a statement that needs to be challenged. It's either someone on the wind-up, having little knowledge of rugby or simply doesn't like players from a certain nation. Of course, it could be more than one of those things.

Not severy opinion needs to be seen as a windup, not every opinion needs to be seen as being spiteful, Not every post needs to be responded to in a sensitive manner.

But then you and Maes have a history neither of you can get over, hence when one comments the other simply must respond in a manner to draw in the other party.

It is rather pathetic, and I for one am getting tired of it, I can see a speedy resolution to my problem in the near future.

Without wishing to get too precious about it, I agree with Biltong that it's a shame to defecate on these threads with the usual anglo-welsh jingoism that occupies dozens of other threads. I was really hoping that these polls might start some good debates about (for example) the relative merits of orchestrating a series win against the greatest side in the world at the time versus helping your side win a world cup. Clearly overreached a little with that.

Carter. Got to be. Lions 2005, that was a beautiful massacre

Sadly George, it seems for some it is impossible to compliment the opposing nation's players and impossible to accept any form of criticism of their own players.

Constructive debate between the Anglo Welsh posters is a rare commodity.

Oly seen clips of Barry John, so can't pick him. Carter for me has a better all round game than Wilkinson so I've gone for Carter.

I think on the initial thread to draw up a shortlist that I went for Ella who was a superb player, and one that I would have over the three listed here.

Anyway, getting back on topic.

Naas Botha was the greatest Springbok fly half in my view, sadly he has not had the opportunity to prove his worth for an extensive period of his career.

But having said that, he was poor in defence and therefor not in the same all round class as Dan Carter.

For me the Half Back pairing of Joost and Dan is no contest.

George/biltong

Sorry for rising to the bait and reacting to the wind-up. I should know better.

Anyway, I voted for Jonny

Biltong wrote:Anyway, getting back on topic.

Naas Botha was the greatest Springbok fly half in my view, sadly he has not had the opportunity to prove his worth for an extensive period of his career.

But having said that, he was poor in defence and therefor not in the same all round class as Dan Carter.

For me the Half Back pairing of Joost and Dan is no contest.

Many players past haven't been seen by most posters. Botha, Porta, Ella, Watkins, Bennett, Campbell, Davies all forgotten.

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:Anyway, getting back on topic.

Naas Botha was the greatest Springbok fly half in my view, sadly he has not had the opportunity to prove his worth for an extensive period of his career.

But having said that, he was poor in defence and therefor not in the same all round class as Dan Carter.

For me the Half Back pairing of Joost and Dan is no contest.

Many players past haven't been seen by most posters. Botha, Porta, Ella, Watkins, Bennett, Campbell, Davies all forgotten.

True, and that will always be the issue, in 50 years from now even Carter won't make an alltime best ever list.

Enjoy them while they play.

Rugby union won't be recognisable as the same sport in 50 years time.

I think it will be recognisable.

when you consider rugby from 50 years ago, even though the clothing have changed, the ball have changed, and the rules, it is still uncannily similar to today's rugby

The great thing about technology these days is that you can find a lot of great footage for free. Mates of mine banged on about the brilliance of Porta, John et al for so long that my ears were bleeding and I just had to check it out for myself. I'm (only ) 35 and was -6 years old when the Lions tore up NZ in 71, but that's absolutely no excuse for not finding out about it if I claim to be a real fan of the sport.

Would be ridiculous if people did the same thing with films, for example, and didn't watch The Third Man, Casablanca or Citizen Kane because they happened to be made before their parents decided to plop them out.

Personally, when I started watching Mark Ella, I couldn't stop. I couldn't believe that anyone could be so cool on the ball and yet so inventive. Like Quade Cooper, minus the ego and the judgement and game reading skills to make the high percentage calls 95% of the time.

George Carlin wrote:The great thing about technology these days is that you can find a lot of great footage for free. Mates of mine banged on about the brilliance of Porta, John et al for so long that my ears were bleeding and I just had to check it out for myself. I'm (only ) 35 and was -6 years old when the Lions tore up NZ in 71, but that's absolutely no excuse for not finding out about it if I claim to be a real fan of the sport.

Would be ridiculous if people did the same thing with films, for example, and didn't watch The Third Man, Casablanca or Citizen Kane because they happened to be made before their parents decided to plop them out.

Personally, when I started watching Mark Ella, I couldn't stop. I couldn't believe that anyone could be so cool on the ball and yet so inventive. Like Quade Cooper, minus the ego and the judgement and game reading skills to make the high percentage calls 95% of the time.

Just watching Dam Busters at the moment. 12 Angry Men was on the other day...! Wonderful stuff.

The greatest tens I have seen were Barry John first, Dai Watkins second, cliff Morgan third, Bennett fourth.

Carter is very much like Watkins. But John was a class above.

I am old enough to remember Barry John & Hugo Porta both great 10s in their day.
But John retired at 27 & Porta probably didn't have many opportunities to e tested regularly against the then best.

Wilko tops nearly all the stats & would have been even better if he hadn't been blighted with injuries but he came back against the odds & is still playing at the highest standard.

A modest man & will be remembered for many things but a true professional in every way.

That said for me Carter is/has been the most complete FH.

1) Carter
2) Wilko
3) John/Porta

George Carlin wrote: I'm (only ) 35 and was -6 years old when the Lions tore up NZ in 71

[/quote]
The series was headed for a draw in the 4th test until JPR kicked a drop goal to draw the test but win the series by 2.5 to 1.5- 'tore up' isnt quite an accurate description but history seems to remember it differently.

Small correction- He dropped the goal to lead the test 14-11 and NZ drew the match with a penalty. Strange in that these days we wouldnt settle for a draw- especially with the series on the line.

Meh, defences weren't as tight in yesteryear and it gave 9/10s more time on the ball.

Ella would be the exception to that as he deliberately stood flat and rushed into the opposition defence, effectively shutting down his own time, but more influentially shutting down the defence pattern and creating holes for those around him...he gave options to his runners rather than the other way around.

I haven't seen a game from the 70s where any if the back line moves didn't occur miles behind the gain line in naive patterns that would just be flattened these days, on that basis I just can't vote for 10s from that era, sorry.

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:Meh, defences weren't as tight in yesteryear and it gave 9/10s more time on the ball.

Ella would be the exception to that as he deliberately stood flat and rushed into the opposition defence, effectively shutting down his own time, but more influentially shutting down the defence pattern and creating holes for those around him...he gave options to his runners rather than the other way around.

I haven't seen a game from the 70s where any if the back line moves didn't occur miles behind the gain line in naive patterns that would just be flattened these days, on that basis I just can't vote for 10s from that era, sorry.

The reason the kiwis nicknamed Barry John "the King" was due to his personal skill and his reading of oppositions deficiencies. He ruined the reputations of many lauded open sides, full backs and opposition tens.

That guile and instinct set him apart.

For his all round game I've gone for Carter.

Wilkinson may have been limited but he did what he knew he could do very well for most his career. He was a brilliant goal kicker and the best defensive 10 I've ever seen, he'll go down as a great and rightly so IMO. That said I'd say DC and John have a bit of fresh air between them and Wilko. If I were picking a team purely on entertainment in attack John would just pip Carlos Spencer for the 10 shirt.

maestegmafia wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:Meh, defences weren't as tight in yesteryear and it gave 9/10s more time on the ball.

Ella would be the exception to that as he deliberately stood flat and rushed into the opposition defence, effectively shutting down his own time, but more influentially shutting down the defence pattern and creating holes for those around him...he gave options to his runners rather than the other way around.

I haven't seen a game from the 70s where any if the back line moves didn't occur miles behind the gain line in naive patterns that would just be flattened these days, on that basis I just can't vote for 10s from that era, sorry.

The reason the kiwis nicknamed Barry John "the King" was due to his personal skill and his reading of oppositions deficiencies. He ruined the reputations of many lauded open sides, full backs and opposition tens.

That guile and instinct set him apart.

That is a common misunderstanding, he was named "the king" because of his blue suede slippers he wore around the team hotel. that and the side burns.

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:Meh, defences weren't as tight in yesteryear and it gave 9/10s more time on the ball.

Ella would be the exception to that as he deliberately stood flat and rushed into the opposition defence, effectively shutting down his own time, but more influentially shutting down the defence pattern and creating holes for those around him...he gave options to his runners rather than the other way around.

I haven't seen a game from the 70s where any if the back line moves didn't occur miles behind the gain line in naive patterns that would just be flattened these days, on that basis I just can't vote for 10s from that era, sorry.

The reason the kiwis nicknamed Barry John "the King" was due to his personal skill and his reading of oppositions deficiencies. He ruined the reputations of many lauded open sides, full backs and opposition tens.

That guile and instinct set him apart.

That is a common misunderstanding, he was named "the king" because of his blue suede slippers he wore around the team hotel. that and the side burns.

Ha ha ha...!

Very inventive.

Dan Carter. He has controlled matches in ways that no other player has ever controlled it

dallym wrote:Dan Carter. He has controlled matches in ways that no other player has ever controlled it

That's nothing mate! You should see what he can do with a zippo.

Carter, the best ever 10 no question. Frankly I would not have Wilkinson in the top 5.

Jonathan Davies and Phil Bennett were better than John. Botha, Porta, Lynagh an Ella would be in the short list.

Carter

Grant Fox

Went two years without playing a losing game of rugby, which included club, Province and Country.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:Meh, defences weren't as tight in yesteryear and it gave 9/10s more time on the ball.

Ella would be the exception to that as he deliberately stood flat and rushed into the opposition defence, effectively shutting down his own time, but more influentially shutting down the defence pattern and creating holes for those around him...he gave options to his runners rather than the other way around.

I haven't seen a game from the 70s where any if the back line moves didn't occur miles behind the gain line in naive patterns that would just be flattened these days, on that basis I just can't vote for 10s from that era, sorry.

The reason the kiwis nicknamed Barry John "the King" was due to his personal skill and his reading of oppositions deficiencies. He ruined the reputations of many lauded open sides, full backs and opposition tens.

That guile and instinct set him apart.

That is a common misunderstanding, he was named "the king" because of his blue suede slippers he wore around the team hotel. that and the side burns.

Insult removed - biltong

More support for the biggest wum this board has had. No surprise that grey ghost gets the support over others.

And you are fast becoming a problem as well.

Carter.

has any 10 ever bettered his performance in 2005 against the lions?

I mean, ever?

Case closed.

Comfort wrote:Carter.

has any 10 ever bettered his performance in 2005 against the lions?

I mean, ever?

Case closed.

Barry John definitely did with the Lions in '71.

Biltong wrote:And you are fast becoming a problem as well.

Explain please. It seems as if the only people here allowed to insult others are those banned several times. I notice you have had your own tantrums Biltong are others not allowed to give opinion or is it an immediate ban???

You are an abrasive poster, and your attitude of "if they can do it, so can I" is a problem.

My "tantrums" as you put it, has everything to do with abrasive posters.

So if I can't do it I expect you have also informed the Panto prince on his posts, alas sadly this is not the case. How am I abrasive? Currently I have disagreed with some posts and also corrected some others here on their facts. Reading some other posts here I would imagine I would be far from the most wanted, but there again I am neither the grey ghost or any of her aka's. I guess I am so far down the heirarchy aye.

rainbow-warrior wrote:So if I can't do it I expect you have also informed the Panto prince on his posts, alas sadly this is not the case. How am I abrasive? Currently I have disagreed with some posts and also corrected some others here on their facts. Reading some other posts here I would imagine I would be far from the most wanted, but there again I am neither the grey ghost or any of her aka's. I guess I am so far down the heirarchy aye.

PM for you.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

Biltong wrote:You guys do realise how petty you are?

Describing Wilkinson as "a good kicker in his day but nothing more" is a statement that needs to be challenged. It's either someone on the wind-up, having little knowledge of rugby or simply doesn't like players from a certain nation. Of course, it could be more than one of those things.

OK Good Kicker and Good Tackler. Happy

Carter can do everything JW can do only better and a thousand other things on top. To compare their relative ability is laughable.

It's not really laughable, Dragon, so much as becoming an increasing stretch. Worth noting that Carter has said in interviews that he was intimidated by Wilkinson's professionalism and it encouraged him to work even harder.

Toulon could indeed afford THE best that was Andrew Merthens in his day,he got them promoted.As indeed he did with most Nh sides he played for. A better all round game than Wilkinson,his equal as a goalkicker BUT like most 10`s of the day he was an indifferent defender.
Freddie Michelak is at Toulon now and Carter rumoured there among other french clubs.
Frankly the Top14 ethos stinks now of Soccer Clubs the rich buy best,then rotate them.It has a dual purpose enhances there team but also denies the spare talent to rival clubs.
Dan Carter would be my choice with Merths a close second.