Jonathan Davies on rugby in Wales

'Top' TV personality and respected former player, Jonathan Davies, managed to squeeze in a couple of noteworthy points at the end of another gripping episode of Scrum V on BBC Wales yesterday. They included;

- regional rugby should be properly funded. There's no point in the WRU making profits if they aren't going to re-invest them,
- rugby should be encouraged in schools,
- Wales has to look at playing talent outside the small pool of regions and academies. He made the point that some players such as himself, Ieuan Evans and Shane Williams, develop later in life and never played for Wales in age group rugby,
- The WRU commissioned an expensive report that suggested that everyone work together, but there is no sign of it yet.

Interesting that Wales' most eminent pundit felt the need to reinforce these rather obvious points yet again. Maybe he feels we're not making progress.

We're 17 years into the professional era, even in Wales.

He was asked the question, so how else was he going to answer?

I thought he gave really good answers. Would have been more interesting to hear more of it. Not sure the program needed 15 mins of Liam Williams standing on a touchline watching Mumbles against Oneeyelid Thirds.

Or Rhys Patchell trying to play the guitar(???)

Sorry Cas, I thought you were having a pop at him for stating the obvious!

It does seem that here in Wales, at least at club level, we're still very slow on the uptake since professionalism. It's as if everyone is ahead of us, we then slowly put things in place to catch up, and them everyone else moves on again and we have to play catch up again. We need to make some bold moves to try to put ourselves at the forefront, the cutting edge. That could spectacularly fail of course, but it's not working now really so why not?

What that could be, I don't know!

At least he had the balls to come out and say it on the idiot box. Bet Roger had a fit, lol.

Agreed. I've heard him make occasional comments before but try to keep a lid on it - maybe afraid of losing his BBC contract.

It was good to see him have a real, albeit brief, rip into it. Rightly or wrongly his opinions get noticed and he's one of the few people that could, if he wanted to, start to make a difference.

All obvious and no points we havn't discussed a thousand times on here!!

Sorry blues, I've always assumed that all articles on 606v2 had to be about things that had previously been discussed at least a thousand times.

Rhys Patchell's guitar also added a fresh perspective.

Maybe I'll do an All Time Great XV list? Haven't seen one of those in a while.

I always enjoy reading JD's musings.

It means you don't have to listen to his voice.

Considering he's usually shouting 'NUMBEHS' this is a refreshingly honest thing to read from someone with his sway....

Did the whole monologue without saying it, Comfort. Not one reference to a dog leg defence either.

How well are people moved up in wales.

In England we all hear of players who play lower leagues and move up as they get better. There seems to be a couple each year.

With a good club set-up in wales can people move up as they get better or is it all about a closed shop.

In ireland sometimes it seems if you don't play for the right schools you might never make it.

Not sure about scotland but they seem to have a similar problem.

Gone are the days when people in Ireland could take it up in their late teens and become big eg hayes

For most professional sports the days of someone taking it up in late teens and making it as a professional are gone Brendan, because the bar is now so high.

In Ireland, most players come though the acamadies, but some who mature later get picked up through the all Ireland league.

England there is more a club development and move up through the tiers, both systems have postives and negatives.

For Wales, they are trying to go the acamadies route, with a smaller player pool it seams right, concentrate the best youngesters in 4/6 teams so they are playing with the best players of their age group against the best players.

The Welsh prem is still good enough for players that are missed to make it and be noticed by a region.

I think its the route Ireland and Wales have to take, while England can bring players up through divisions.

In Wales, while the academies are one progression pathway available to players, there is still the club game at semi-pro level where players can and do get picked up. Remember that for a lot of academy players, they cut their teeth in the welsh prem. Therefore, late developers or late form finders are in the same league as the academy players, and are therefore in the same 'shop window'. The likes of Lloyd Burns got picked up through decent club performances at Cross Keys. As these semi-pro clubs are part of the feeder system to the regions, but take players from anywhere (not just the academies), it is a fairly open system. Certainly not a closed shop.

I'm glad he made the point about academies. When my brother asked Gwyn Jones if he thought the academies were being counter productive in some S4C corporate nonsense in Parc Y Scarlets, the Doctor was astounded that anybody would even ask the question. It is clear though that the early developers are fast tracked in the academies. They are told to bulk up and do so incompetently, paying no attention to balance, that they become injuries waiting to happen. They get all natural flair coached out of them for minimal skills coached in. Academies should be all about handling and kicking skills, developing peripheral vision and position specific skills, not bulking up and endless fitness.

Glas a du wrote:They are told to bulk up and do so incompetently, paying no attention to balance, that they become injuries waiting to happen. They get all natural flair coached out of them for minimal skills coached in. Academies should be all about handling and kicking skills, developing peripheral vision and position specific skills, not bulking up and endless fitness.

This my major gripe with the regional academies, they put a lot of emphasis on the size of the player and they want them all to have the physique of Adonis. Some of the players coming through are so metronomic, you can see that they've been coached to play rugby by numbers. Which is why we don't have enough players making that step up.

This is where NZ are streets ahead of us, their youngsters play in weight brackets rather than age, their focus is on skills and creating space rather than physical prowess.

You can tell by the time those guys become pros, even their locks regularly offload like wingers.

Coleman wrote:

Glas a du wrote:They are told to bulk up and do so incompetently, paying no attention to balance, that they become injuries waiting to happen. They get all natural flair coached out of them for minimal skills coached in. Academies should be all about handling and kicking skills, developing peripheral vision and position specific skills, not bulking up and endless fitness.

This my major gripe with the regional academies, they put a lot of emphasis on the size of the player and they want them all to have the physique of Adonis. Some of the players coming through are so metronomic, you can see that they've been coached to play rugby by numbers. Which is why we don't have enough players making that step up.

exactly

Has the WRU done any sort of analysis into the success rate of players developing through the academies? The drop out rate (players not making it to pro rugby) must be huge, considering how many enter each year in the younger age groups.

I'm sure academies have their place, but Wales has too small a player base for us to ignore players who develop later and/or outside of them?

Cas, Im assuming the bulk who want to continue to play rugby would join up with clubs in the welsh premiership if they didnt get signed up to the regions.

Then any late developers are still in and around the regions to be spotted.

That would make sense anyway...

My biggest fear is for those talented players who are not able to bulk up as much as their coaches desire because they're not physically ready or genetically disposed to it at that stage, and are cast aside. Must be examples of it.

Comfort wrote:This is where NZ are streets ahead of us, their youngsters play in weight brackets rather than age, their focus is on skills and creating space rather than physical prowess.

You can tell by the time those guys become pros, even their locks regularly offload like wingers.

Such a simple idea. If only we had some sort of administrative body that could co-ordinate things at a national level....

Comfort wrote:Cas, Im assuming the bulk who want to continue to play rugby would join up with clubs in the welsh premiership if they didnt get signed up to the regions.

Then any late developers are still in and around the regions to be spotted.

That would make sense anyway...

I believe that many see it as a door being closed. They get jettisoned out (often for not being 'tall enough'), become disillusioned and drift away from the game. Later, when they have a growth spurt, and end up 6 foot 5, they've been on the X-Box for 3 years and couldn't run round the block without getting an asthma attack.

Waste of talent.

And don't forget, this is all abouty personalities. If a player is dropped from an academy because he started to believe his own hype, but after a few years labouring on building sites, sorts himself out, do you think that region will give him a second chance? Do you think the regions will pick up on a player that has the skill, but needs some fine tuning if that means they have to admit that they boobed in not fast tracking him in the first place? Whilst mediocrity is acceptable in the Pro12, we will miss out on players.

Glas a du wrote:And don't forget, this is all abouty personalities. If a player is dropped from an academy because he started to believe his own hype, but after a few years labouring on building sites, sorts himself out, do you think that region will give him a second chance? Do you think the regions will pick up on a player that has the skill, but needs some fine tuning if that means they have to admit that they boobed in not fast tracking him in the first place? Whilst mediocrity is acceptable in the Pro12, we will miss out on players.

Joseph Romano is a great example of late bloomer being picked up in NZ - he was a useful talent in his teens, but very injury prone. A couple of years spent playing low grade club rugby and working as a builder gave him time to finish growing (which ended the injury concerns), then he worked his way up through the ranks of club, provincial and Super rugby to a Black jersey.

See! Why are they just more sensible than us?

Glas a du wrote:See! Why are they just more sensible than us?

It's why we're better sheep farmers too Glas

Glas a du wrote:And don't forget, this is all abouty personalities. If a player is dropped from an academy because he started to believe his own hype, but after a few years labouring on building sites, sorts himself out, do you think that region will give him a second chance? Do you think the regions will pick up on a player that has the skill, but needs some fine tuning if that means they have to admit that they boobed in not fast tracking him in the first place? Whilst mediocrity is acceptable in the Pro12, we will miss out on players.

Excellent point.

For every one that finds their way back from the wilderness; Shane, Lee Byrne, Halfpenny, Liam Williams, there must be numerous others (maybe some that are even more talented) that have to get regular jobs, start families, go travelling, pursue other paths along life's highway etc etc and are never seen again.

While doing some in-depth research, I've noticed that Liam Williams' wikipedia entry lists him as being 3ft 10inches and 11stone.

Which is quite funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Williams

Casartelli wrote:Has the WRU done any sort of analysis into the success rate of players developing through the academies? The drop out rate (players not making it to pro rugby) must be huge, considering how many enter each year in the younger age groups.

That'd be like admitting they expect the development of players to be done on a shoestring unless someone else pays for it...

The accademies idea that certain positions require certain sizes annoys me, that is why there are some many crap props now comes down to the idea to move backrow forwards into the front row. I even knew a lad who was a very good fly half, he was a real lump fo a kid, and he was taken into an accademy and told he would make a first class hooker (or loosehead not too sure now) because he had the size and was a tackling maching etc. That lad ended up quitting and to my knowledge has not even played for the local side since.

Casartelli wrote:While doing some in-depth research, I've noticed that Liam Williams' wikipedia entry lists him as being 3ft 10inches and 11stone.

Which is quite funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Williams

.

Have a look at Daf Hewitt's wiki page

Back to the orginal point,

JD is spot on,

Main points
- regional rugby should be properly funded.
- The WRU commissioned an expensive report that suggested that everyone work together, but there is no sign of it yet.


I think that commentors have been loath to critise the regions/WRU but its starting, notice on RTE the pundits discuss the regions and why they aren't working out, and its about time someone put into the media what we all want.

From an Irish point of view we need the regions to succeed, because we need the Pro 12 to suceed. If the Pro 12 fails, we can expect to go back to what rugby was like for us in the 90's, before the Celtic league, all the best players in England, and picking up wooden spoons all over the place.

If the regions were better funded, kept most of their international players, and had a real chance of winning the h-cup, I think we would see the attendances improve, and people to start getting behind them better.

People in Wales mostly say they don't care to much about the pro 12, but I think this is because (apart from Ospreys) they are not as good as people would have hoped.

Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli fans were used to seeing their team at the top or near the top of the Table, and were used to success, and being able to say their team was one of the best in the Leauge, each season they all had a good chance of silverware. Now these teams are in a harder league and their fans are no longer able to say they are among the best, and some don't really have much chance of silverware, so the enthusiasm isn't there so much.

Another point is people say lack of derbies means they don't like the Pro 12, but each region has 6 Derbies a year, 3 of the 11 home games, or 36%.
How many derbies do you want, how many derbies does the average English team have, one?

I think that if the regions had won 6 h-cups, the stadiums would be full and people would love the regions.

Kingshu wrote:I think that if the regions had won 6 h-cups, the stadiums would be full and people would love the regions.

Agreed.

Success breeds excitement, excitement brings in fans, fans help bring in the money, the money pays the players to stay in wales and play at the region.

Everyone wins.

Tell that to Ponty and Neath die hards, no amount of success will turn these few thousand into O's and Blues fans!!!

The problem is the regions can't get numbers through the turnstyles, and therefore can't sustain themselves relying on the poor funding from the WRU, therefore they cannot sign/keep the better players, and hence become less succesfull and attract fewer fans through the turnstyle...

See the problem?!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Tell that to Ponty and Neath die hards, no amount of success will turn these few thousand into O's and Blues fans!!!

The problem is the regions can't get numbers through the turnstyles, and therefore can't sustain themselves relying on the poor funding from the WRU, therefore they cannot sign/keep the better players, and hence become less succesfull and attract fewer fans through the turnstyle...

See the problem?!

Kind of, but let's not pretend they can sustain themselves on money through the turnstiles either, even if all the disenfranchised decide to see sense and the Rabo succeeds and several other miracles occur.

Kingshu wrote:
From an Irish point of view we need the regions to succeed, because we need the Pro 12 to suceed. If the Pro 12 fails, we can expect to go back to what rugby was like for us in the 90's, before the Celtic league, all the best players in England, and picking up wooden spoons all over the place.

If the regions were better funded, kept most of their international players, and had a real chance of winning the h-cup, I think we would see the attendances improve, and people to start getting behind them better.

People in Wales mostly say they don't care to much about the pro 12, but I think this is because (apart from Ospreys) they are not as good as people would have hoped.

Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli fans were used to seeing their team at the top or near the top of the Table, and were used to success, and being able to say their team was one of the best in the Leauge, each season they all had a good chance of silverware. Now these teams are in a harder league and their fans are no longer able to say they are among the best, and some don't really have much chance of silverware, so the enthusiasm isn't there so much.

You might be right, but I've seen all the Irish provinces well beaten at Rodney Parade by the lowly Dragons, and it's fair to say these fixtures don't inspire the casual fan, for whom the rivalries with the next town/big bad English will always be the over-riding selling point. The undoubted quality of the opposition and the chance to see them beaten doesn't guarantee interest. Neither does is get rid of issues like the paucity of travelling support, or waste of money travelling that are inherent to the Robo. You can't keep claiming the league is fine as long as the Welsh get their house in order.

"Main points
- regional rugby should be properly funded.
- The WRU commissioned an expensive report that suggested that everyone work together, but there is no sign of it yet."

-- Kingshu, He also mentioned that more should be done at school level. He's been stating this for years.

I totally agree with JD's comments and good to see Scrum V at least touching on the subject. Maybe Scrum V should set up a Q&A programme with the WRU with JD and Eddie Butler asking difficult questions. The only problem is the answers will be deflected to say haven't we done well paying off debts, we have the best stadium in the World (yawn), we have put money into the study (kept in house) etc., etc., There is no point talking to the region money men because they have sworn to secrecy.

SCUM V let's have more on the running of the game in Wales.

Brendan wrote:

In ireland sometimes it seems if you don't play for the right schools you might never make it.

You don't have to go to a fancy school to get noticed in Wales. You just have to feature in the Blues, Ospreys or Scarlets academies.

...by being the biggest kid in your school at 14.

Majority of Welsh fans seem to be in agreement on most of this. What the hell is going on???

Some sort of Mayan prophecy/end of the world as we know it thing happen last month or what?

The problem with JD's comments is that they make the presumption that the WRU has made huge profits and that Roger Lewis is sitting on a pile of cash. This is factually incorrect.

The WRU has reported record turnover but a moderate amount of profit as the income has been spent.

It has been spent on the community game and repaying debts.

There is no point throwing good money after bad management especially when there is a £20million loan outstanding.

Demand that the regions improve their corporate governance structures first, then increase investment. Otherwise, in 5 years time, it'll be the same old story. It is not all about money. New Zealand prove that.

The WRU returned pre-tax earnings (profit) of £27.6million, a rise of six per cent from the previous year.

Casartelli wrote:The WRU returned pre-tax earnings (profit) of £27.6million, a rise of six per cent from the previous year.

The net profit figure is £616k!

The amount of £27.6 million is before payments to the regions of £15 million and various other costs!

Let me guess scrumdown, you're an accountant?

The point is motormouth egotist Roger shot his mouth off about paying the debt down as if it was a personal crusade as opposed to bending over and taking the precise amount of medicine prescribed by the banks. Whilst Wales were doing OK on the pitch, fine and dandy. Now people are questioning the treatment of the regions, he's backed into a corner. Wales are looking like bottom half candidates in the 6 nations and ticket sales aren't so hot.

Suddenly splashing the cash at grass roots level and failing to take a firmer line with the Banks looks foolish, but Roger can't allow that to happen, hence the public shot across the bows of the Regions.

It really is simple when you think about it. It is our duty as Welsh rugby fans to be sceptical and independently minded and to haul Lewis over the coals if he fouls it up, not to lift his sleeves.

Scrumdown wrote:

Casartelli wrote:The WRU returned pre-tax earnings (profit) of £27.6million, a rise of six per cent from the previous year.

The net profit figure is £616k!

The amount of £27.6 million is before payments to the regions of £15 million and various other costs!

Exactly. £27.6m is the 'EBITDA'. Earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation. In simple terms, it's the amount of 'cash' that Roger has to play with (he/the WRU decides how it's allocated).

Don't know how to you define a 'pile' of cash but nearly £30m would seem a decent heap to most folk.

For those so inclined, here's the link to the WRU annual report.

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/WRU_ARA_2012.pdf

It's pretty tedious, but page 17 gives quite a straightforward summary of the MASSIVE pile of cash that's generated and how the WRU decide to share it out.

Castarelli,

I would define cash as the amount in the bank.

They had £800k at the year end.

Scrumdown wrote:Castarelli,

I would define cash as the amount in the bank.

They had £800k at the year end.

No mate, that's what they have left in the current account (god knows why) after Roger has spent the previous 12 months squandering the rest of it.

If you have £7.50 in your bank account at Xmas, it doesn't mean your salary for the year was less than a tenner. Snapshot, see.