v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 4

Yesterday’s group was all about The Don, Bradman claimed 54% of the votes and progresses into round 2 as one of the early favourites to go all the way, joining him in round 2 is one of the greatest grand slam champions Martina Navratilova who went through with 25% of the vote. Exiting the tournament at the first stage are World Cup winner Zidane and boxing great Harry Greb.

Today’s group sees Horse Racing, Rugby, Football and Golf compete for your votes.

We have two participants championed today with articles written by forum members; please feel free to submit your own argument below for those not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Diego Maradona- Football- Championed by Hero

One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?

We already have an answer.

In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.

English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the "Hand of God" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.

Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.

Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: "It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail."

This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the "Butcher of Bilbao". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.

Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.

Gareth Edwards- Rugby- Champion by dummy_half

The facts - Wales scrum half 53 times between 1967 and 1978, scoring 20 tries. British and Irish Lions scrum half in 1971 and 1974, in successful tours to New Zealand and South Africa.

It is never easy to pick who is the greatest rugby player of all time - different requirements for specialist positions and the changes to the game following the introduction of professionalism make comparisons troublesome. However, Gareth Edwards is one name that always makes the discussion, and indeed he was voted the best rugby player of all time in a 2003 Ruugby World poll of present and former international players, and Will Carling named him the #1 in his list of 50 greatest players in 2007.

The Wales team of the 70s, even for this Englishman, is a team of legends. The Pontypool front row, Merv the Swerve Davies, Prince Barry John, Phil Bennett, Gerald Davies, JPR Williams. However, the collossus standing over all of them was Edwards. First capped at 19 and then playing the next 53 Wales internationals - never injured, never dropped and Wales's youngest ever captain. In his twelve year international career, Wales won the 5 Nations Championship 7 times. Sadly, at the time there was no rugby world cup to allow this Wales team to be regularly tested against the best the southern hemisphere had to offer - judging from how well the Welsh-dominated Lions did in New Zealand in 1971, they'd have had a good chance - the only British team even close to their legacy is the England team of 2000-2003, and they didn't dominate for anywhere near the same length of time.

Edwards was a talented youngster, given a scholarship to Millfields school where he excelled at football (even signing for Swansea City at 16), gymnastics and athletics as well as rugby. However, as a South Wales boy, it was always rugby that was closest to his heart.

Traditionally, scrum half is a very technical position, with the ability to pass the ball fast and accurately and to kick well under pressure are pre-requisites. Edwards had these attributes, but he had more also. The strength and tenacity of a back row forward meant he could dig the ball out of rucks and mauls and was prepared to carry the ball himself into the heavy traffic around the breakdown, plus while most scrum halfs of the time were defensive liabilities, he never shirked the tackling duties. Even more importantly, he was fast - as quick as most wingers, and it was this pace that saw his most famous moment, finishing off 'That Try' for the Barbarians against New Zealand in 1973.

I'm sure most of you have seen it - All Blacks wing Brian Williams kicks the ball across to near the Baa-Baas posts, where Phil Bennett retrieves and sidesteps 3 pursuers before passing to JPR Williams. Williams stands up under a high tackle and off-loads to Pullen, still in the defensive 22. Pullen, Dawes, David and Quinnell carry the ball forwards to just over the half way line, progressively passing towards the left touchline. Quinnell throws a one-handed pass aimed at his winger, but a faster-running Edwards 'intercepts' and sprints the remaining 40m to score in the corner. All this in the first 3 minutes of the most entertaining rugby match ever played.

The final words I leave to Will Carling, in summing up Edwards:

"He was a supreme athlete with supreme skills, the complete package. He played in the 1970s, but, if he played now, he would still be the best. He was outstanding at running, passing, kicking and reading the game. He sits astride the whole of rugby as the ultimate athlete on the pitch".

World Golf Hall of Fame Profile: Bobby Jones - Provided by Diggers

More than any player in history, Bobby Jones is the model of the complete golfer. Supremely gifted, Jones was also a man of vast intelligence and profound character, and he merged all three forces to become not only a singular champion, but a genuine hero. Wrote Herbert Warren Wind, "In the opinion of many people, of all the great athletes, Jones came the closest to being what we called a great man."

As a golfer, Jones was a giant. In the 1920s, he was "an ultra-athlete," according to writer and historian Charles Price, "recognized at being better at his game than any other athlete was at his." While there is no doubt Jones is the finest amateur golfer the game has ever produced, there's a strong argument that he was the greatest golfer, period. Beginning with his victory in the 1923 U.S. Open at Inwood and ending with his U.S. Amateur victory at Merion in 1930, Jones won 13 championships in 20 tries, the most imposing run of major titles the game has ever seen.

His crowning glory was The Grand Slam of 1930, in which he became the only golfer ever to win the U.S. Amateur, British Amateur, British Open and U.S. Open in the same year, indeed, the only golfer to win all four in a career. When he retired at the end of that year at the age of 28, The New York Times noted the occasion in an editorial that read, "With dignity, he quit the scene on which he nothing common did, or mean." Jones was born March 17, 1902, in Atlanta. He was clearly a prodigy, and his first championship was the 1916 U.S. Amateur, where as a 14-year-old he went to the third round.

From the beginning, Jones' swing possessed "a drowsy beauty," in the words of Bernard Darwin. Yet Jones was a passionate man who had to overcome his own frailties of temperament. The strain of competition would cause him to lose as much as 18 pounds in a week. After winning the 1926 U.S. Open, he suddenly broke into tears in his Columbus, Ohio, hotel room, the strain catching up to him. He had to dominate a fiery temper that hindered him as a youth. As talented as he was, he did not win his first championship until 1923, prompting the early part of his career to be labeled "The Seven Lean Years." But Jones had a revelation when he discovered that the key to winning was learning to score well when playing badly. "I think this is what I learned to do best of all," wrote Jones, and "The Seven Fat Years" ensued.

Jones accomplished all this while playing competitive golf no more than three months in a year at any point in his life. The rest of the time was dedicated to academics, and later, the workaday world of the law. He studied mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech, graduating in three years, received a degree in English Literature from Harvard and attended law school at Emory University, withdrawing in his third semester to pass the bar. He would go on to become one of the game's most lucid and enlightening writers. Besides his record and character, Jones' greatest legacy is Augusta National Golf Club and the Masters Tournament, which he founded in 1934. He played in the tournament several times, never finishing better than 13th. In 1948, he developed syringomyelia, a fluid-filled cavity in his spinal cord causing first pain, then paralysis. Jones never played golf again and was eventually restricted to a wheelchair until his death Dec. 18, 1971. As Wind wrote, "As a young man he was able to stand up to just about the best that life can offer, which isn't easy, and later he stood up with equal grace to just about the worst."

The USGA's award for distinguished sportsmanship is the Bob Jones Award. "What Jones did was create a model that everyone, consciously or unconsciously, followed," said William Campbell. "It is why we have so many fine people in golf. He showed the world how to do it."

Tony McCoy - Championed by Wikiedia, researched by Paperbag Puncher

Champion jockey 17 consecutive years (won it every year he's been a pro)

Over 3,600 winners. (more than any other jump jockey by a considerable margin)

McCoy has won almost every big race there is to win. His most high profile winners include the prestigious Cheltenham Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle, Queen Mother Champion Chase, King George VI Chase and the 2010 Grand National.

He has had a number of falls since becoming a jump jockey, one of the many occupational hazards that comes with race riding. McCoy has broken or dislocated almost every bone in his body (some of them multiple times), including a middle and lower vertebrae, both shoulder blades, ribs, an ankle, cheekbones, a wrist, a leg, collar bone, fingers and teeth. (He has never willingly pulled out of a race due to an injury)

Won BBC Sport's personality of the year in 2010 beating Phil Taylor and Jessica Ennis. Received more votes than previous winners Ryan Giggs, Joe Calzaghe, Chris Hoy, Zara Phillips. This is impressive coming from a sport not as main stream as others and with a dwindling fan base.

McCoy stands at 1.78m (5'10") which is relatively tall for a jockey. In order to maintain a suitable racing weight, McCoy must keep his weight down to 63.5kg (10st). McCoy's natural weight, based on his physiology, should be about 75 kg (one and a half stone) more.[4] McCoy's diet, similar to many jockeys, involves a strong mug of sugary tea for breakfast and one slice of toast (depending on the weight requirements for the afternoons racing). Breakfast is often followed by sweating in the bath for one hour. At the races, McCoy's lunch will again involve another cup of tea and a couple of jelly babies. After racing, McCoy eats dinner early to give his food time to digest. His evening meal commonly consists of lean meat or fish. He only eats dinner four times a week, so on the other three nights he goes to bed hungry. McCoy will sweat for a hour in the bath before bed.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many in the 64 who sacrifice or risk as much as AP does to be the best at what he does. To be a 17 time champion jockey shows how successful he is but also how much time he puts into his craft. He consistently rides the most horses year on year often winning on animals that have no right to win. He has a £1 million retainer to ride for JP McManus and many would be happy to only do this yet he will take every spare ride he can get in his pursuit of glory.

He may not be the most stylish of jockeys or the best pure horseman but for drive, guts, will to win and pure dominance he more than deserves to be in this company and should advance further.

In "the sport of kings" one man reigns supreme.

If anyone uses the Hand of God as to why Maradona isn't a GOAT, they are just being peevish and bitter. Mind you , he's another tainted by drugs too.

Maradona

The greatest player of the most popular played sport in the world.

The other three are worthy contenders mind.

I have voted for Diego Maradona who is seen by many as the greatest footballer of all-time. He gets my vote above Tony McCoy as I unequivocally place Lester Piggott as the greayest jockey of all-time. Gareth Edwards was a sublime player of that there is no doubt but is he the GOAT in that field I am not so sure. As for golfer Bobby Jones then that is similar to Edwards - I would put a handful of golfers above him on GOAT list from that sport.

Maradona for me.

I dislike everything about the fat, slimy, cheating Argentinian slob but he was a great pure footballer.

I'll likely have reservations against him in the latter stages of this competition, where we will really need to nitpick to separate great sportsmen, but in this group he breezes through.

Hmmmm 2 talismanic type of athletes. Toughy indeed!

Brilliant write ups though

Maradona for me too, probably the easiest decision to make so far. Great case from Hero too

A good write up about Maradona but why dismiss Messi's international record. Messi at the same age has done more than Maradona had. Messi of course does need to at least have a couple of cracking world cups to come close to Diego but time is on his side.

It's a pity there isn't a bit more contention isn't there. OPen and shut case for Maradona.
I shall miss the banter of yesterday today. Never thought I'd say it, but it's more fun if there is a question mark over some of the people in the poll. It creates debate.

pardon my ignorance, but just who is Bobby Jones? can't make an educated decision for this group until I get a full picture, so off to do some reasearch. However, in golfing terms he ranks behind at least Woods and Nicklaus in most GOAT debates, so probably the weakest candidate from this bunch (which isn't as strong as the previous two days, but not bad nonetheless). Will probably go with Maradonna or Edwards, both considered by many to be the GOATs of their sport...

I'll spark some debate for you, SR

Tony McCoy? GOAT for sitting on the fastest horses? Why not nominate the horses!

Below is Bobby Jones biography from the golfing Hall of Fame as I suspect many outside of golf wont have heard of him and even a fair few golfers wont know his background or achievements. Mind you I'll still be voting for Maradona but also dont see the need to have a go at Messi -



World Golf Hall of Fame Profile: Bobby Jones

More than any player in history, Bobby Jones is the model of the complete golfer. Supremely gifted, Jones was also a man of vast intelligence and profound character, and he merged all three forces to become not only a singular champion, but a genuine hero. Wrote Herbert Warren Wind, "In the opinion of many people, of all the great athletes, Jones came the closest to being what we called a great man."

As a golfer, Jones was a giant. In the 1920s, he was "an ultra-athlete," according to writer and historian Charles Price, "recognized at being better at his game than any other athlete was at his." While there is no doubt Jones is the finest amateur golfer the game has ever produced, there's a strong argument that he was the greatest golfer, period. Beginning with his victory in the 1923 U.S. Open at Inwood and ending with his U.S. Amateur victory at Merion in 1930, Jones won 13 championships in 20 tries, the most imposing run of major titles the game has ever seen.

His crowning glory was The Grand Slam of 1930, in which he became the only golfer ever to win the U.S. Amateur, British Amateur, British Open and U.S. Open in the same year, indeed, the only golfer to win all four in a career. When he retired at the end of that year at the age of 28, The New York Times noted the occasion in an editorial that read, "With dignity, he quit the scene on which he nothing common did, or mean." Jones was born March 17, 1902, in Atlanta. He was clearly a prodigy, and his first championship was the 1916 U.S. Amateur, where as a 14-year-old he went to the third round.

From the beginning, Jones' swing possessed "a drowsy beauty," in the words of Bernard Darwin. Yet Jones was a passionate man who had to overcome his own frailties of temperament. The strain of competition would cause him to lose as much as 18 pounds in a week. After winning the 1926 U.S. Open, he suddenly broke into tears in his Columbus, Ohio, hotel room, the strain catching up to him. He had to dominate a fiery temper that hindered him as a youth. As talented as he was, he did not win his first championship until 1923, prompting the early part of his career to be labeled "The Seven Lean Years." But Jones had a revelation when he discovered that the key to winning was learning to score well when playing badly. "I think this is what I learned to do best of all," wrote Jones, and "The Seven Fat Years" ensued.

Jones accomplished all this while playing competitive golf no more than three months in a year at any point in his life. The rest of the time was dedicated to academics, and later, the workaday world of the law. He studied mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech, graduating in three years, received a degree in English Literature from Harvard and attended law school at Emory University, withdrawing in his third semester to pass the bar. He would go on to become one of the game's most lucid and enlightening writers. Besides his record and character, Jones' greatest legacy is Augusta National Golf Club and the Masters Tournament, which he founded in 1934. He played in the tournament several times, never finishing better than 13th. In 1948, he developed syringomyelia, a fluid-filled cavity in his spinal cord causing first pain, then paralysis. Jones never played golf again and was eventually restricted to a wheelchair until his death Dec. 18, 1971. As Wind wrote, "As a young man he was able to stand up to just about the best that life can offer, which isn't easy, and later he stood up with equal grace to just about the worst."

The USGA's award for distinguished sportsmanship is the Bob Jones Award. "What Jones did was create a model that everyone, consciously or unconsciously, followed," said William Campbell. "It is why we have so many fine people in golf. He showed the world how to do it."

Sort of agree, I'm not a fan of horse racing per say, but like Bradman, McCoy's stats put him way above the rest, whilst riding many different horses. Do we question the opposition again?

super_realist wrote:It's a pity there isn't a bit more contention isn't there. OPen and shut case for Maradona.
I shall miss the banter of yesterday today. Never thought I'd say it, but it's more fun if there is a question mark over some of the people in the poll. It creates debate.

In some ways this could be a more contentious day....as after all two people go through. Suspect Maradona will walk it but who gets the second slot and a final place in the 32 ?

thanks Diggers

Was hoping Edwards would have an easier draw than that when I wrote him up (and that my proof reading was better).

Clearly a group with 2 good candidates and two fantastic ones.

The good:
McCoy - an extraordinary riding career, but National Hunt racing is hardly the pinnacle of international sport, so his career legacy is based on what he has achieved in Britain and Ireland. Outstanding though this has been, I can't see a case for putting him further through.

Bobby Jones - Perhaps the most naturally talented golfer ever and certainly the most successful amateur. However, his career legacy cannot compare with Nicklaus or Woods simply because of its short span. Winning 4 US Opens and 3 Open Championships between the ages of 21 and 28 certainly proved his talent, but he has to fall short of GOATness.

The Great:

Edwards - I made the case above. He went beyond being a great player to being an almost mythical figure in Welsh rugby. How many other sportsmen have large bronze statues in the shopping mall of the city where they played?

Maradona - A fat cheating scumbag who only had one foot and rarely headed the ball. But what a left foot - sometimes it appeared the ball was glued to it as he slalomed his way through the opposing defence, making world class defenders look like schoolboys. I still rate Pele as the better overall player - more of a team man than Maradona, whereas Diego was the one individual who could raise a mediocre team to achieve greatness. All this in THE global sport.

I have to vote for Edwards (I'm a rugby and cricket man at heart), but in the certain knowledge that Maradona will sail through this round and will be well within the top 10 overall.

Anyone who's seen The Legend of Bagger Vance won't vote for Bobby Jones, that made him out to be a right sleazeball.

super_realist wrote:Sort of agree, I'm not a fan of horse racing per say, but like Bradman, McCoy's stats put him way above the rest, whilst riding many different horses. Do we question the opposition again?

I was being facetious. I don't particularly like or enjoy horse racing, find it incredibly dull, but McCoy has a fantastic record as you say, whilst riding many different horses (but were they just always the fastest horses? )

He is certainly worthy of championing by some, but I can't find a way for him to deserve progressing to the next round.

I lent my vote to Edwards. Feel he will need it to go through

Personally Ive never had the remotest problem with Maradons handball. If for example Bryan Robson had done the same thing I'd have been over the moon, literally scores of players go over in the penalty area at world cups(including our own wonderboy at the time Michael Owen), even more make dirty tackles, pretend the ball is in when its out, etc etc. Its all cheating, why a handball (that again literally 100's pf players try and get away with all over the pitch or try and claim pens for when they know something isn't a handball) should be seen as any different is beyond me.

To be fair, Shilton should have clattered him.

Didn't have time to do up a proper write up so I would like to direct you to Tony McCoy's Wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_McCoy

Here are some cliffs.

Champion jockey 17 consecutive years (won it every year he's been a pro)

Over 3,600 winners. (more than any other jump jockey by a considerable margin)

McCoy has won almost every big race there is to win. His most high profile winners include the prestigious Cheltenham Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle, Queen Mother Champion Chase, King George VI Chase and the 2010 Grand National.

He has had a number of falls since becoming a jump jockey, one of the many occupational hazards that comes with race riding. McCoy has broken or dislocated almost every bone in his body (some of them multiple times), including a middle and lower vertebrae, both shoulder blades, ribs, an ankle, cheekbones, a wrist, a leg, collar bone, fingers and teeth. (He has never willingly pulled out of a race due to an injury)

Won BBC Sport's personality of the year in 2010 beating Phil Taylor and Jessica Ennis. Received more votes than previous winners Ryan Giggs, Joe Calzaghe, Chris Hoy, Zara Phillips. This is impressive coming from a sport not as main stream as others and with a dwindling fan base.

McCoy stands at 1.78m (5'10") which is relatively tall for a jockey. In order to maintain a suitable racing weight, McCoy must keep his weight down to 63.5kg (10st). McCoy's natural weight, based on his physiology, should be about 75 kg (one and a half stone) more.[4] McCoy's diet, similar to many jockeys, involves a strong mug of sugary tea for breakfast and one slice of toast (depending on the weight requirements for the afternoons racing). Breakfast is often followed by sweating in the bath for one hour. At the races, McCoy's lunch will again involve another cup of tea and a couple of jelly babies. After racing, McCoy eats dinner early to give his food time to digest. His evening meal commonly consists of lean meat or fish. He only eats dinner four times a week, so on the other three nights he goes to bed hungry. McCoy will sweat for a hour in the bath before bed.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many in the 64 who sacrifice or risk as much as AP does to be the best at what he does. To be a 17 time champion jockey shows how successful he is but also how much time he puts into his craft. He consistently rides the most horses year on year often winning on animals that have no right to win. He has a £1 million retainer to ride for JP McManus and many would be happy to only do this yet he will take every spare ride he can get in his pursuit of glory.

He may not be the most stylish of jockeys or the best pure horseman but for drive, guts, will to win and pure dominance he more than deserves to be in this company and should advance further.

In "the sport of kings" one man reigns supreme.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:thanks Diggers

I know its not a piece from someone on this board but maybe a Mod can paste the Jones article into the main post on this thread ? Clearly most people who comment on this wont go through all the posts so to have it inserted in the main article. Just a suggestion.

Diggers wrote:Personally Ive never had the remotest problem with Maradons handball. If for example Bryan Robson had done the same thing I'd have been over the moon, literally scores of players go over in the penalty area at world cups(including our own wonderboy at the time Michael Owen), even more make dirty tackles, pretend the ball is in when its out, etc etc. Its all cheating, why a handball (that again literally 100's pf players try and get away with all over the pitch or try and claim pens for when they know something isn't a handball) should be seen as any different is beyond me.

Illustrates the problem with professional football (actually, much of this even goes on in Sunday League football as well). I do think Maradona's hand ball was more blatantly cheating than say Michael Owen's falling in the penalty area - at least in Owen's case there was some contact with the defender even if Owen had to divert his run and trail a leg to get it whereas Maradona literally punched the ball over Shilton in the knowledge that he wouldn't make contact with it any other way.

Yes, it's all cheating, but there are different levels based on the level of intent.

dummy_half wrote:

Diggers wrote:Personally Ive never had the remotest problem with Maradons handball. If for example Bryan Robson had done the same thing I'd have been over the moon, literally scores of players go over in the penalty area at world cups(including our own wonderboy at the time Michael Owen), even more make dirty tackles, pretend the ball is in when its out, etc etc. Its all cheating, why a handball (that again literally 100's pf players try and get away with all over the pitch or try and claim pens for when they know something isn't a handball) should be seen as any different is beyond me.

Illustrates the problem with professional football (actually, much of this even goes on in Sunday League football as well). I do think Maradona's hand ball was more blatantly cheating than say Michael Owen's falling in the penalty area - at least in Owen's case there was some contact with the defender even if Owen had to divert his run and trail a leg to get it whereas Maradona literally punched the ball over Shilton in the knowledge that he wouldn't make contact with it any other way.

Yes, it's all cheating, but there are different levels based on the level of intent.

Perhaps, but can you really argue that cheating is really any more prevalent in football than rugby union. The amount of carnage that goes on in the scrums and lineouts, sides trying to bend the rules. I'd say it was more a case of accepting that in professional sports....mainly team sports where there is no single conscience...anything that attempts to gain an advantage goes and its down to the refs to call it.
As cricket has become more professional nobody walks anymore, you are seen as letting down your team rather than letting down the moral code of the game.
I think football gets stick for something that happens in a lot of sports personally.

I've voted for Maradona as he's the best of this list but like Fists, I have some reservations that may come into play in the later rounds.

I do think he's more highly regarded (in terms of ability) in this country off the back of that second goal against England in '86 and I do think there is some exaggeration that comes into play. That was a more than decent Argentina team that he played for and the team was remodelled into a 3-5-2 to allow Maradona the space to work his undoubted magic and to get the best out of the supporting cast. They also benefited from a kind draw (avoiding a very good French team that might have had too much for them at the quarter final stage).

Also, if you look at the squads during each of Napoli's title wins, they probably were in the top 3 or 4 in terms of quality in Italy at the time. He didn't just drag a team of hopeless hackers to both title wins. He was the main man and made the difference but the same can be said for Messi.
Take Messi out fo the current Barcelona team and it doesn't equal Spain - it equals a team that would draw a hell of a lot more games than they currently do and would look bereft of inspiration.

Saying that, he's an undoubted genius and in the top 3 players of all time.

On McCoy, I've no doubting the excellence of his record and what he has to go through to achieve it, but as a serious question:

How much difference does having McCoy on board compared with a lesser (but still good and experienced) rider?

As a parallel to this, is McCoy's great skill being the best rider or is it in being the guy that gets the best horses to ride?

I'm thinking about it a little as a parallel with Formula 1 - clearly you have to be good to get there in the first place, and if you prove yourself very good you'll get better opportunities to drive for the big teams, but how much is it about pure sporting talent and how much about the behind the scenes politics? In the golden period of F1 through the 80s, Senna and to a lesser extent Mansell were successful primarily because of their speed, while Prost and Piquet were probably slightly less fast drivers but were better at making sure both that they had the best machinery and that those who could beat them didn't.

paperbag_puncher wrote:Didn't have time to do up a proper write up so I would like to direct you to Tony McCoy's Wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_McCoy

Here are some cliffs.

Champion jockey 17 consecutive years (won it every year he's been a pro)

Over 3,600 winners. (more than any other jump jockey by a considerable margin)

McCoy has won almost every big race there is to win. His most high profile winners include the prestigious Cheltenham Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle, Queen Mother Champion Chase, King George VI Chase and the 2010 Grand National.

He has had a number of falls since becoming a jump jockey, one of the many occupational hazards that comes with race riding. McCoy has broken or dislocated almost every bone in his body (some of them multiple times), including a middle and lower vertebrae, both shoulder blades, ribs, an ankle, cheekbones, a wrist, a leg, collar bone, fingers and teeth. (He has never willingly pulled out of a race due to an injury)

Won BBC Sport's personality of the year in 2010 beating Phil Taylor and Jessica Ennis. Received more votes than previous winners Ryan Giggs, Joe Calzaghe, Chris Hoy, Zara Phillips. This is impressive coming from a sport not as main stream as others and with a dwindling fan base.

McCoy stands at 1.78m (5'10") which is relatively tall for a jockey. In order to maintain a suitable racing weight, McCoy must keep his weight down to 63.5kg (10st). McCoy's natural weight, based on his physiology, should be about 75 kg (one and a half stone) more.[4] McCoy's diet, similar to many jockeys, involves a strong mug of sugary tea for breakfast and one slice of toast (depending on the weight requirements for the afternoons racing). Breakfast is often followed by sweating in the bath for one hour. At the races, McCoy's lunch will again involve another cup of tea and a couple of jelly babies. After racing, McCoy eats dinner early to give his food time to digest. His evening meal commonly consists of lean meat or fish. He only eats dinner four times a week, so on the other three nights he goes to bed hungry. McCoy will sweat for a hour in the bath before bed.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many in the 64 who sacrifice or risk as much as AP does to be the best at what he does. To be a 17 time champion jockey shows how successful he is but also how much time he puts into his craft. He consistently rides the most horses year on year often winning on animals that have no right to win. He has a £1 million retainer to ride for JP McManus and many would be happy to only do this yet he will take every spare ride he can get in his pursuit of glory.

He may not be the most stylish of jockeys or the best pure horseman but for drive, guts, will to win and pure dominance he more than deserves to be in this company and should advance further.

In "the sport of kings" one man reigns supreme.

Sorry Lester Piggott beats him hands down as far as jockeys go. He was still riding classic winners in his 60's and was renowned as the ultimate stylist in the saddle with a style he made his own.

OH NOOOO a true dilema.. Gareth edwards , maradonna and Bobby jones.. JEASUS

Diggers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

Diggers wrote:Personally Ive never had the remotest problem with Maradons handball. If for example Bryan Robson had done the same thing I'd have been over the moon, literally scores of players go over in the penalty area at world cups(including our own wonderboy at the time Michael Owen), even more make dirty tackles, pretend the ball is in when its out, etc etc. Its all cheating, why a handball (that again literally 100's pf players try and get away with all over the pitch or try and claim pens for when they know something isn't a handball) should be seen as any different is beyond me.

Illustrates the problem with professional football (actually, much of this even goes on in Sunday League football as well). I do think Maradona's hand ball was more blatantly cheating than say Michael Owen's falling in the penalty area - at least in Owen's case there was some contact with the defender even if Owen had to divert his run and trail a leg to get it whereas Maradona literally punched the ball over Shilton in the knowledge that he wouldn't make contact with it any other way.

Yes, it's all cheating, but there are different levels based on the level of intent.

Perhaps, but can you really argue that cheating is really any more prevalent in football than rugby union. The amount of carnage that goes on in the scrums and lineouts, sides trying to bend the rules. I'd say it was more a case of accepting that in professional sports....mainly team sports where there is no single conscience...anything that attempts to gain an advantage goes and its down to the refs to call it.
As cricket has become more professional nobody walks anymore, you are seen as letting down your team rather than letting down the moral code of the game.
I think football gets stick for something that happens in a lot of sports personally.

Diggers
I think football is unique (at least in terms of high profile sports in the UK) in how much blatant cheating and attempting to con the ref goes on, but other sports are less 'whiter than white' than sometimes painted. Can't say that I've ever seen someone from a sport other than football try to cheat quite as blatantly (and successfully) as Rivaldo at the World Cup about a decade ago, when the ball was kicked at him, striking him on the knee and he went down clutching his face

You're right that one of the skills in rugby union is in playing to the limits that the referee will allow, and that this means seeing just how far a Law can be bent (and so on occasion over-stepping the mark) - what seldom happens though is players trying to con the ref. There was a case in the autumn internationals this year where a player kicked the ball over the defender facing him, ran forward and went down like he was pole-axed - Brian Moore's commentary was the classic 'Get up, you footballer'. The other thing that does not happen in rugby is a team mobbing the ref after an incident - I don't get why footballers do this, as the only time I've ever seen a ref change his mind was when the player he thought had been fouled told him otherwise.

we really all need two votes each if we're going to have a group runner up. 2pts for 1st and 1pt for 2nd.

gotto go for edwards as I rate him as one of the best(if not the best) ever rugby union players.

Maradona.. Cant do it..Good nom but the fact is I would go for ronaldo, messi and pele(even zidane) ahead of him.

Bobby Jones was a legend of the game.. But he could never win a GOAT in golf so as much as i love him and golf- i cant go for him in this company..

Tony Mcoy. He is a jocky. Its like putting a racing driver in there. How much is it about the rider and how much is it about the horse/ car..

dummy_half wrote:

Diggers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

Diggers wrote:Personally Ive never had the remotest problem with Maradons handball. If for example Bryan Robson had done the same thing I'd have been over the moon, literally scores of players go over in the penalty area at world cups(including our own wonderboy at the time Michael Owen), even more make dirty tackles, pretend the ball is in when its out, etc etc. Its all cheating, why a handball (that again literally 100's pf players try and get away with all over the pitch or try and claim pens for when they know something isn't a handball) should be seen as any different is beyond me.

Illustrates the problem with professional football (actually, much of this even goes on in Sunday League football as well). I do think Maradona's hand ball was more blatantly cheating than say Michael Owen's falling in the penalty area - at least in Owen's case there was some contact with the defender even if Owen had to divert his run and trail a leg to get it whereas Maradona literally punched the ball over Shilton in the knowledge that he wouldn't make contact with it any other way.

Yes, it's all cheating, but there are different levels based on the level of intent.

Perhaps, but can you really argue that cheating is really any more prevalent in football than rugby union. The amount of carnage that goes on in the scrums and lineouts, sides trying to bend the rules. I'd say it was more a case of accepting that in professional sports....mainly team sports where there is no single conscience...anything that attempts to gain an advantage goes and its down to the refs to call it.
As cricket has become more professional nobody walks anymore, you are seen as letting down your team rather than letting down the moral code of the game.
I think football gets stick for something that happens in a lot of sports personally.

Diggers
I think football is unique (at least in terms of high profile sports in the UK) in how much blatant cheating and attempting to con the ref goes on, but other sports are less 'whiter than white' than sometimes painted. Can't say that I've ever seen someone from a sport other than football try to cheat quite as blatantly (and successfully) as Rivaldo at the World Cup about a decade ago, when the ball was kicked at him, striking him on the knee and he went down clutching his face

You're right that one of the skills in rugby union is in playing to the limits that the referee will allow, and that this means seeing just how far a Law can be bent (and so on occasion over-stepping the mark) - what seldom happens though is players trying to con the ref. There was a case in the autumn internationals this year where a player kicked the ball over the defender facing him, ran forward and went down like he was pole-axed - Brian Moore's commentary was the classic 'Get up, you footballer'. The other thing that does not happen in rugby is a team mobbing the ref after an incident - I don't get why footballers do this, as the only time I've ever seen a ref change his mind was when the player he thought had been fouled told him otherwise.

Yes totally agree re the reffing, Ive no idea why simple rules arent put in place allowing only the captains to approach the refs, equally anyone swearing at a ref should be booked.
Footballers do it, not to change the refs mind on that particular decision but to make him think about the next one. Plant a seed that maybe he made a mistake and needs to balance it up. Ive watched planty of games where the ref would appear to have done just that.
Then again there is far more violence in rugby than football, really is Rivaldos action worse than a player trying to gouge out the eye of an opponent, that might just be the most despicable thing Ive ever heard happen on a pitch. Attempting to blind your opponent is cheating at a pretty base level.

Barragan, that isn't possible on the site. You don't need two votes to have a runner up, if anything it is more accurate as the runner up will be the person who a number of people think is the best. By having two votes it means someone could get through while never being anybodies top choice.

MtotheC, hope you don't mind but I added write ups for the other two which were provided above. Thanks Diggers and Paperbag Puncher

Good write up for jones diggs.. But in this company ...

mystiroakey wrote:Good write up for jones diggs.. But in this company ...

Oh agree he doenst deserve to go through Mysti, just seems pointless to me that an outsider gets mentioned with no case made to back up his inclusion. Hardly worth the bother of mentioning them. Took me all of two minutes to find that biography.

Well its not just about finding the winner is it. We are also learning about other sportsmen!!

good point enforcer - though you could say that under the current rules, the runner up ought to be eliminated at this stage too as they have been fairly beaten by another who will go further in the competition. if two are to go through then really needs two seperate votes per voter. shame the site poll configuration won't allow that as an option.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:Didn't have time to do up a proper write up so I would like to direct you to Tony McCoy's Wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_McCoy

Here are some cliffs.

Champion jockey 17 consecutive years (won it every year he's been a pro)

Over 3,600 winners. (more than any other jump jockey by a considerable margin)

McCoy has won almost every big race there is to win. His most high profile winners include the prestigious Cheltenham Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle, Queen Mother Champion Chase, King George VI Chase and the 2010 Grand National.

He has had a number of falls since becoming a jump jockey, one of the many occupational hazards that comes with race riding. McCoy has broken or dislocated almost every bone in his body (some of them multiple times), including a middle and lower vertebrae, both shoulder blades, ribs, an ankle, cheekbones, a wrist, a leg, collar bone, fingers and teeth. (He has never willingly pulled out of a race due to an injury)

Won BBC Sport's personality of the year in 2010 beating Phil Taylor and Jessica Ennis. Received more votes than previous winners Ryan Giggs, Joe Calzaghe, Chris Hoy, Zara Phillips. This is impressive coming from a sport not as main stream as others and with a dwindling fan base.

McCoy stands at 1.78m (5'10") which is relatively tall for a jockey. In order to maintain a suitable racing weight, McCoy must keep his weight down to 63.5kg (10st). McCoy's natural weight, based on his physiology, should be about 75 kg (one and a half stone) more.[4] McCoy's diet, similar to many jockeys, involves a strong mug of sugary tea for breakfast and one slice of toast (depending on the weight requirements for the afternoons racing). Breakfast is often followed by sweating in the bath for one hour. At the races, McCoy's lunch will again involve another cup of tea and a couple of jelly babies. After racing, McCoy eats dinner early to give his food time to digest. His evening meal commonly consists of lean meat or fish. He only eats dinner four times a week, so on the other three nights he goes to bed hungry. McCoy will sweat for a hour in the bath before bed.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many in the 64 who sacrifice or risk as much as AP does to be the best at what he does. To be a 17 time champion jockey shows how successful he is but also how much time he puts into his craft. He consistently rides the most horses year on year often winning on animals that have no right to win. He has a £1 million retainer to ride for JP McManus and many would be happy to only do this yet he will take every spare ride he can get in his pursuit of glory.

He may not be the most stylish of jockeys or the best pure horseman but for drive, guts, will to win and pure dominance he more than deserves to be in this company and should advance further.

In "the sport of kings" one man reigns supreme.

Sorry Lester Piggott beats him hands down as far as jockeys go. He was still riding classic winners in his 60's and was renowned as the ultimate stylist in the saddle with a style he made his own.

Flat racing and national hunt are like two completely different sports to me. Kind of like rugby league and rugby union so I don't think we're comparing like for like if we pit them against each other.

Enforcer wrote:Barragan, that isn't possible on the site. You don't need two votes to have a runner up, if anything it is more accurate as the runner up will be the person who a number of people think is the best. By having two votes it means someone could get through while never being anybodies top choice.

MtotheC, hope you don't mind but I added write ups for the other two which were provided above. Thanks Diggers and Paperbag Puncher

I just want to point out that most of my write up is not my own work. I intended on doing an article championing McCoy but couldn't with work constraints. At the same time I wanted people to be able to see APs main stats/info in the article so I did a mash up mainly using wiki with a bit of my own opinion thrown in.

Can you maybe mention the above in the OP I don't want to be known as the Wiki plagiarizer and had intended on writing my own article...

Enforcer wrote:Barragan, that isn't possible on the site. You don't need two votes to have a runner up, if anything it is more accurate as the runner up will be the person who a number of people think is the best. By having two votes it means someone could get through while never being anybodies top choice.

MtotheC, hope you don't mind but I added write ups for the other two which were provided above. Thanks Diggers and Paperbag Puncher

Mice one, much fairer now

I really don't think Maradona should be considered... as good as he was, the 'Hand of God' and other incidents are a major blot on his copybook.

I like Bobby Jones. I don't think I could vote for him (he didn't get to play a Masters, and the era probably means his achievements aren't as great as Jack Niklaus or Seve later on).

McCoy? Well, he's done well, but in his sport the emphasis is on the horse (the horse wins the Derby, not the jockey). So to be the Greatest Sportsperson of All Time is difficult to quantify.

So I'll probably vote for Edwards by default, on the grounds of how highly he's regarded in rugby circles.

Diggers

The difference is that gouging and other acts of violent play in rugby are not even tacitly condoned but see players getting very long bans (I believe life bans have been given, and players have been imprisoned for assault where the incident has been severe enough to not be considered a 'part of the game'), and this is hugely supported through the rugby community. Remember that this is still a sport where almost all the time the two teams will batter each other for 80 minutes and then go for a beer together.

I think the problem the football authorities have, and have had for at least the last 40 years, is that by not taking decisive action early on the various issues of cheating (whether diving, play-acting to con the ref, overtly pressuring the officials, holding and shirt-pulling) they have allowed an escalation of all these elements of cheating so that it has become an accepted part of the game far more obviously than for other sports.

I'm not intending this as a dig at football in particular, as unlike many rugby fans I do like the game and think when played well it can be the most elegant and graceful sport - a sweeping Man U counter-attack, Arsenal's incisive pass and move or Barca's intricacy and 'football as chess' style all have an appeal. It's just that the level of sportsmanship in the game is abject and is something that the FA, UEFA and FIFA should really be helping the officials deal with.

love football . hate fifa/uefa..

To be fair on the FA they have actually tried to push for goal line etc..

Shelsey93 wrote:I really don't think Maradona should be considered... as good as he was, the 'Hand of God' and other incidents are a major blot on his copybook.

I like Bobby Jones. I don't think I could vote for him (he didn't get to play a Masters, and the era probably means his achievements aren't as great as Jack Niklaus or Seve later on).

McCoy? Well, he's done well, but in his sport the emphasis is on the horse (the horse wins the Derby, not the jockey). So to be the Greatest Sportsperson of All Time is difficult to quantify.

So I'll probably vote for Edwards by default, on the grounds of how highly he's regarded in rugby circles.

Bit of an ignorant view I'm afraid. Last I heard 30% of favourites win NH races. That means in 7/10 races the horse rated as having the best chance of winning does not win. You're doing a huge dis service to jockeys, trainers and everyone else involved in fine tuning a horse for a race. If you raced the same horses without riders you wouldn't get the same results.

Why do these polls keep disappearing from the global lists on each forum?

Fair enough paperbag, I didn't mean to be patronising towards jockeys.

But I think my basic point still stands. In Horse Racing the horses are a major factor in which horse wins. The jockey's role is important, but he can't win on a bad horse and vice versa.

Slowride wrote:Why do these polls keep disappearing from the global lists on each forum?

Yep. Its disappeared from the cricket at about this time each day.

Shelsey93 wrote:I really don't think Maradona should be considered... as good as he was, the 'Hand of God' and other incidents are a major blot on his copybook.

I like Bobby Jones. I don't think I could vote for him (he didn't get to play a Masters, and the era probably means his achievements aren't as great as Jack Niklaus or Seve later on).

McCoy? Well, he's done well, but in his sport the emphasis is on the horse (the horse wins the Derby, not the jockey). So to be the Greatest Sportsperson of All Time is difficult to quantify.

So I'll probably vote for Edwards by default, on the grounds of how highly he's regarded in rugby circles.

Shelsey - re Bobby Jones
Jones actually did play in The Masters, but mainly because he was fundamental to the development of the Augusta National course in the early 1930s (so a few years after his retirement from competetive golf) and in the creation of The Masters as a top level event at his new course. I agree with Myst's earlier comment - fantastic golfer, sportsman and person, but in context of this group of 4 not meriting going further forward.

Personally, despite the discussion I've been having with Diggers, I don't see the 'Hand of God' as that big a black mark against Maradona - in the context of modern football it was cheating but it wasn't really beyond the pale. A bit like my view of Merckx's doping positives - for the time and for the sport they were not that big a deal (whereas Armstrong's case is a big deal). I do think that Maradona being expelled from the 94 World Cup because of a positive drugs test is another moderate black mark against him as a GOAT contender (more though as a question of character than of his ability as a sportsman) and should be discussed further (along with his cocaine addiction) as we proceed towards comparing the best of the best.

dummy_half wrote:Diggers

The difference is that gouging and other acts of violent play in rugby are not even tacitly condoned but see players getting very long bans (I believe life bans have been given, and players have been imprisoned for assault where the incident has been severe enough to not be considered a 'part of the game'), and this is hugely supported through the rugby community. Remember that this is still a sport where almost all the time the two teams will batter each other for 80 minutes and then go for a beer together.

I think the problem the football authorities have, and have had for at least the last 40 years, is that by not taking decisive action early on the various issues of cheating (whether diving, play-acting to con the ref, overtly pressuring the officials, holding and shirt-pulling) they have allowed an escalation of all these elements of cheating so that it has become an accepted part of the game far more obviously than for other sports.

I'm not intending this as a dig at football in particular, as unlike many rugby fans I do like the game and think when played well it can be the most elegant and graceful sport - a sweeping Man U counter-attack, Arsenal's incisive pass and move or Barca's intricacy and 'football as chess' style all have an appeal. It's just that the level of sportsmanship in the game is abject and is something that the FA, UEFA and FIFA should really be helping the officials deal with.

Fair enough mate and by and large completely agree and also Im not trying to have a go at rugby, I love the intensity of top class an international as much as I love watching pretty much any sport, those big old units to get carried away sometimes though....which I confess I also enjoy watching as well.