v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 4

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s group was all about The Don, Bradman claimed 54% of the votes and progresses into round 2 as one of the early favourites to go all the way, joining him in round 2 is one of the greatest grand slam champions Martina Navratilova who went through with 25% of the vote. Exiting the tournament at the first stage are World Cup winner Zidane and boxing great Harry Greb.

Today’s group sees Horse Racing, Rugby, Football and Golf compete for your votes.

We have two participants championed today with articles written by forum members; please feel free to submit your own argument below for those not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Diego Maradona- Football- Championed by Hero

One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?

We already have an answer.

In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.

English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the "Hand of God" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.

Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.

Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: "It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail."

This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the "Butcher of Bilbao". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.

Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.

Gareth Edwards- Rugby- Champion by dummy_half

The facts - Wales scrum half 53 times between 1967 and 1978, scoring 20 tries. British and Irish Lions scrum half in 1971 and 1974, in successful tours to New Zealand and South Africa.

It is never easy to pick who is the greatest rugby player of all time - different requirements for specialist positions and the changes to the game following the introduction of professionalism make comparisons troublesome. However, Gareth Edwards is one name that always makes the discussion, and indeed he was voted the best rugby player of all time in a 2003 Ruugby World poll of present and former international players, and Will Carling named him the #1 in his list of 50 greatest players in 2007.

The Wales team of the 70s, even for this Englishman, is a team of legends. The Pontypool front row, Merv the Swerve Davies, Prince Barry John, Phil Bennett, Gerald Davies, JPR Williams. However, the collossus standing over all of them was Edwards. First capped at 19 and then playing the next 53 Wales internationals - never injured, never dropped and Wales's youngest ever captain. In his twelve year international career, Wales won the 5 Nations Championship 7 times. Sadly, at the time there was no rugby world cup to allow this Wales team to be regularly tested against the best the southern hemisphere had to offer - judging from how well the Welsh-dominated Lions did in New Zealand in 1971, they'd have had a good chance - the only British team even close to their legacy is the England team of 2000-2003, and they didn't dominate for anywhere near the same length of time.

Edwards was a talented youngster, given a scholarship to Millfields school where he excelled at football (even signing for Swansea City at 16), gymnastics and athletics as well as rugby. However, as a South Wales boy, it was always rugby that was closest to his heart.

Traditionally, scrum half is a very technical position, with the ability to pass the ball fast and accurately and to kick well under pressure are pre-requisites. Edwards had these attributes, but he had more also. The strength and tenacity of a back row forward meant he could dig the ball out of rucks and mauls and was prepared to carry the ball himself into the heavy traffic around the breakdown, plus while most scrum halfs of the time were defensive liabilities, he never shirked the tackling duties. Even more importantly, he was fast - as quick as most wingers, and it was this pace that saw his most famous moment, finishing off 'That Try' for the Barbarians against New Zealand in 1973.

I'm sure most of you have seen it - All Blacks wing Brian Williams kicks the ball across to near the Baa-Baas posts, where Phil Bennett retrieves and sidesteps 3 pursuers before passing to JPR Williams. Williams stands up under a high tackle and off-loads to Pullen, still in the defensive 22. Pullen, Dawes, David and Quinnell carry the ball forwards to just over the half way line, progressively passing towards the left touchline. Quinnell throws a one-handed pass aimed at his winger, but a faster-running Edwards 'intercepts' and sprints the remaining 40m to score in the corner. All this in the first 3 minutes of the most entertaining rugby match ever played.

The final words I leave to Will Carling, in summing up Edwards:

"He was a supreme athlete with supreme skills, the complete package. He played in the 1970s, but, if he played now, he would still be the best. He was outstanding at running, passing, kicking and reading the game. He sits astride the whole of rugby as the ultimate athlete on the pitch".

World Golf Hall of Fame Profile: Bobby Jones - Provided by Diggers

More than any player in history, Bobby Jones is the model of the complete golfer. Supremely gifted, Jones was also a man of vast intelligence and profound character, and he merged all three forces to become not only a singular champion, but a genuine hero. Wrote Herbert Warren Wind, "In the opinion of many people, of all the great athletes, Jones came the closest to being what we called a great man."

As a golfer, Jones was a giant. In the 1920s, he was "an ultra-athlete," according to writer and historian Charles Price, "recognized at being better at his game than any other athlete was at his." While there is no doubt Jones is the finest amateur golfer the game has ever produced, there's a strong argument that he was the greatest golfer, period. Beginning with his victory in the 1923 U.S. Open at Inwood and ending with his U.S. Amateur victory at Merion in 1930, Jones won 13 championships in 20 tries, the most imposing run of major titles the game has ever seen.

His crowning glory was The Grand Slam of 1930, in which he became the only golfer ever to win the U.S. Amateur, British Amateur, British Open and U.S. Open in the same year, indeed, the only golfer to win all four in a career. When he retired at the end of that year at the age of 28, The New York Times noted the occasion in an editorial that read, "With dignity, he quit the scene on which he nothing common did, or mean." Jones was born March 17, 1902, in Atlanta. He was clearly a prodigy, and his first championship was the 1916 U.S. Amateur, where as a 14-year-old he went to the third round.

From the beginning, Jones' swing possessed "a drowsy beauty," in the words of Bernard Darwin. Yet Jones was a passionate man who had to overcome his own frailties of temperament. The strain of competition would cause him to lose as much as 18 pounds in a week. After winning the 1926 U.S. Open, he suddenly broke into tears in his Columbus, Ohio, hotel room, the strain catching up to him. He had to dominate a fiery temper that hindered him as a youth. As talented as he was, he did not win his first championship until 1923, prompting the early part of his career to be labeled "The Seven Lean Years." But Jones had a revelation when he discovered that the key to winning was learning to score well when playing badly. "I think this is what I learned to do best of all," wrote Jones, and "The Seven Fat Years" ensued.

Jones accomplished all this while playing competitive golf no more than three months in a year at any point in his life. The rest of the time was dedicated to academics, and later, the workaday world of the law. He studied mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech, graduating in three years, received a degree in English Literature from Harvard and attended law school at Emory University, withdrawing in his third semester to pass the bar. He would go on to become one of the game's most lucid and enlightening writers. Besides his record and character, Jones' greatest legacy is Augusta National Golf Club and the Masters Tournament, which he founded in 1934. He played in the tournament several times, never finishing better than 13th. In 1948, he developed syringomyelia, a fluid-filled cavity in his spinal cord causing first pain, then paralysis. Jones never played golf again and was eventually restricted to a wheelchair until his death Dec. 18, 1971. As Wind wrote, "As a young man he was able to stand up to just about the best that life can offer, which isn't easy, and later he stood up with equal grace to just about the worst."

The USGA's award for distinguished sportsmanship is the Bob Jones Award. "What Jones did was create a model that everyone, consciously or unconsciously, followed," said William Campbell. "It is why we have so many fine people in golf. He showed the world how to do it."

Tony McCoy - Championed by Wikiedia, researched by Paperbag Puncher

Champion jockey 17 consecutive years (won it every year he's been a pro)

Over 3,600 winners. (more than any other jump jockey by a considerable margin)

McCoy has won almost every big race there is to win. His most high profile winners include the prestigious Cheltenham Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle, Queen Mother Champion Chase, King George VI Chase and the 2010 Grand National.

He has had a number of falls since becoming a jump jockey, one of the many occupational hazards that comes with race riding. McCoy has broken or dislocated almost every bone in his body (some of them multiple times), including a middle and lower vertebrae, both shoulder blades, ribs, an ankle, cheekbones, a wrist, a leg, collar bone, fingers and teeth. (He has never willingly pulled out of a race due to an injury)

Won BBC Sport's personality of the year in 2010 beating Phil Taylor and Jessica Ennis. Received more votes than previous winners Ryan Giggs, Joe Calzaghe, Chris Hoy, Zara Phillips. This is impressive coming from a sport not as main stream as others and with a dwindling fan base.

McCoy stands at 1.78m (5'10") which is relatively tall for a jockey. In order to maintain a suitable racing weight, McCoy must keep his weight down to 63.5kg (10st). McCoy's natural weight, based on his physiology, should be about 75 kg (one and a half stone) more.[4] McCoy's diet, similar to many jockeys, involves a strong mug of sugary tea for breakfast and one slice of toast (depending on the weight requirements for the afternoons racing). Breakfast is often followed by sweating in the bath for one hour. At the races, McCoy's lunch will again involve another cup of tea and a couple of jelly babies. After racing, McCoy eats dinner early to give his food time to digest. His evening meal commonly consists of lean meat or fish. He only eats dinner four times a week, so on the other three nights he goes to bed hungry. McCoy will sweat for a hour in the bath before bed.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many in the 64 who sacrifice or risk as much as AP does to be the best at what he does. To be a 17 time champion jockey shows how successful he is but also how much time he puts into his craft. He consistently rides the most horses year on year often winning on animals that have no right to win. He has a £1 million retainer to ride for JP McManus and many would be happy to only do this yet he will take every spare ride he can get in his pursuit of glory.

He may not be the most stylish of jockeys or the best pure horseman but for drive, guts, will to win and pure dominance he more than deserves to be in this company and should advance further.

In "the sport of kings" one man reigns supreme.

paperbag_puncher wrote:Gareth Edwards isn't the greatest rugby player ever.

In 2003 a poll was conducted in the Rugby World Magazine, which voted Gareth as the greatest rugby player of all time

PenfroPete wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:Gareth Edwards isn't the greatest rugby player ever.

In 2003 a poll was conducted in the Rugby World Magazine, which voted Gareth as the greatest rugby player of all time

Was it the Welsh language edition by any chance ?

PenfroPete wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:Gareth Edwards isn't the greatest rugby player ever.

In 2003 a poll was conducted in the Rugby World Magazine, which voted Gareth as the greatest rugby player of all time

Is it conclusive? Do you think he has any deserving rivals? McCoy stands alone when it comes to jumps racing. I'm surprised AP has as many votes as he does to be honest with the volume the RU forum has.

Nine chins woods hey!!

still dont get the reasoning behind that name!!

Diggers wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:Gareth Edwards isn't the greatest rugby player ever.

In 2003 a poll was conducted in the Rugby World Magazine, which voted Gareth as the greatest rugby player of all time

Was it the Welsh language edition by any chance ?

There's no such thing. The poll was conducted amongst international rugby players. Also Will Carling, in his 50 Greatest Players had Gareth Edwards as the greatest ever.

The reaosn why i rate edwards so highly isnt because i saw him play. But from countless accolades from the players i respect today and from my viewing past..

Poor Bobby Jones, I'd have thought he'd get more than one vote. He's in the running for the wooden spoon at this point.

Many thanks to paperbag for addressing my question about horse-riding vs motor-racing.

I'm not sure however that I am all that impressed by the commitments McCoy has made - every top level athlete (cyclists particularly have to watch their diet similarly) makes them to one extent or another, and I don't like the term "sacrifice" because it has a negative connotation - these guys have to put in the hard work, but the reward is obviously worth it or they wouldn't do it.

I would be keen for someone to have a crack at the other two questions:
- what does a jockey actually do? In other words, what difference does he make, and why is his job so hard?
- Is it usual for a jockey to have such a long career as McCoy or is he a one-off in this as well?

I am not against McCoy per see, but would like to understand what makes the jockey such a key factor.

mystiroakey wrote:Nine chins woods hey!!

still dont get the reasoning behind that name!!

Eh, He's got nine chins perhaps?

For all that pointless gym work he does he's still got a fat neck.

PenfroPete wrote:

Diggers wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:Gareth Edwards isn't the greatest rugby player ever.

In 2003 a poll was conducted in the Rugby World Magazine, which voted Gareth as the greatest rugby player of all time

Was it the Welsh language edition by any chance ?

There's no such thing. The poll was conducted amongst international rugby players. Also Will Carling, in his 50 Greatest Players had Gareth Edwards as the greatest ever.

Was only kidding, Im sure he is right up there, never saw that much of him to be honest as didnt watch much rugby as a kid. Most talented scrum half Ive seen is maybe Joost van der Westhuizen. Very different type of player to Edwards.

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Nine chins woods hey!!

still dont get the reasoning behind that name!!

Eh, He's got nine chins perhaps?

For all that pointless gym work he does he's still got a fat neck.

never noticed it SR

Compared to daly, lowery , the walrus etc he has a neck like a mercat

You'll notice it next time you see him in profile. Most of it's probably down to the fat he never smiles. Only a matter of time before he blows up like his old man and his knee gives up forever.

i will check it out!

Mike Selig wrote:Many thanks to paperbag for addressing my question about horse-riding vs motor-racing.

I'm not sure however that I am all that impressed by the commitments McCoy has made - every top level athlete (cyclists particularly have to watch their diet similarly) makes them to one extent or another, and I don't like the term "sacrifice" because it has a negative connotation - these guys have to put in the hard work, but the reward is obviously worth it or they wouldn't do it.

I would be keen for someone to have a crack at the other two questions:
- what does a jockey actually do? In other words, what difference does he make, and why is his job so hard?
- Is it usual for a jockey to have such a long career as McCoy or is he a one-off in this as well?

I am not against McCoy per see, but would like to understand what makes the jockey such a key factor.

1) The jockey does make a difference, how much of a difference is up to you to decide. Obviously if you have a faster horse, it makes your job easier but it won't guarantee that you win. Particularly over jumps, which is of course McCoy's profession rather than flat, he will still have a big role in whether that horse will win. As mentioned before, a horse is different to a car in that it has emotions, it is like a human and it is the Jockey's job to control that, if he doesn't quite simply the horse won't win. If the jockey doesn't control the horse, he may go off too quickly and tire before the end of the race-there is a lot of tactics involved in racing with pacing of the race, knowing when to make a move to the front. The Jockey controls when the horse jumps, the difference a good job makes from an indifferent one can be crucial in a race. I won't dispute that the horse does a lot of work in the race, but a great jockey like McCoy will make the difference in a tight race.

Well for the 2nd question, it's not so much the longevity of his career that is impressive, quite a few Jockey's have raced for many years. What is impressive is the consistency he has shown in his 17 years as a Jockey. He has been Champion Jockey every year he has been a professional, 17 years in a row. The next closest won the Champion Jockey 7 years in a row which should highlight how impressive his feats are. He has over 3600 winners in his career, the next highest is 1699. McCoy also didn't just stay in a comfortable position, he was stable jockey for Martin Pipe and when he left many expected him to struggle to replicate his achievements...but he just kept on winning.

Maradona easily, the greatest footballer of all time.

Mat

Thanks for the response - Mike's questions echoed some of my concerns.

Really the nub of the debate over McCoy is the question of how much and how often the following matter:
"The Jockey controls when the horse jumps, the difference a good job makes from an indifferent one can be crucial in a race. I won't dispute that the horse does a lot of work in the race, but a great jockey like McCoy will make the difference in a tight race. "

i.e. is it one race in 3 that McCoy would make a difference compared with an average jockey, or one race in 100. If it's the former then clearly McCoy's skills are the key factor in his success, whereas if it's the latter then it's mostly about being on the right horse in the race.

My other concern over McCoy is that he, as with Phil Taylor earlier, is a big fish in a small pond. Undoubtedly the best at what he does (and a far better human being than Taylor), but in a niche - my guestimate is that there are probably only a couple of hundred (at most) professional National Hunt jockeys (and even fewer darts pros), so being the best of them is rather less significant than being the best pro footballer of any era (my guess is that there are 20000+ full time pros in the world).

McCoy for me. But hardly a worldwide sport.
Hope Lester will be among the GOAT 64.

dummy_half wrote:Mat

Thanks for the response - Mike's questions echoed some of my concerns.

Really the nub of the debate over McCoy is the question of how much and how often the following matter:
"The Jockey controls when the horse jumps, the difference a good job makes from an indifferent one can be crucial in a race. I won't dispute that the horse does a lot of work in the race, but a great jockey like McCoy will make the difference in a tight race. "

i.e. is it one race in 3 that McCoy would make a difference compared with an average jockey, or one race in 100. If it's the former then clearly McCoy's skills are the key factor in his success, whereas if it's the latter then it's mostly about being on the right horse in the race.

My other concern over McCoy is that he, as with Phil Taylor earlier, is a big fish in a small pond. Undoubtedly the best at what he does (and a far better human being than Taylor), but in a niche - my guestimate is that there are probably only a couple of hundred (at most) professional National Hunt jockeys (and even fewer darts pros), so being the best of them is rather less significant than being the best pro footballer of any era (my guess is that there are 20000+ full time pros in the world).

Dummy

Unfortunately can't really answer the question regarding whether it is one race in 3 or one race in 100 where his skills make the difference. Over the latter years of his career, where he hasn't been a stable jockey, I'd make an informed guess that he made the difference with his skills more often than having the best horse. Another thing worth remembering when asking "Has he had the best horses?" is that initially he would not have been a big name so wouldn't have got as many good rides as he gets now(because of his reputation) which makes his feats impressive in those first years as a professional jockey.

Understand the concern regarding the limited number of jockey though I would say that what McCoy has achieved in his career far eclipses anything Taylor has done in his career, and I might add with a lot more class.

And Willie Shoemaker

"Understand the concern regarding the limited number of jockey though I would say that what McCoy has achieved in his career far eclipses anything Taylor has done in his career, and I might add with a lot more class."

gonna be honest mate although you may be right you sound abit elitest with that one. And I personally would never agree that any jockey could surpass taylor..

Taylor is a Legend in his sport.. yes a mninority one. but all the same a certain GOAT of darts

NOt sure F1 or horse racing should be included when the success of the jockey/driver is inherently linked to having the right horse/car.

We'd only have two sports if it was down to you super

in this case he is kind off right. I just cant see how any jocky or driver can be quanfiably a GOAT sportsman.. to many questions that surrond the sport and they are only pilots. Yes there is skill involved. But most people especially in horse riding see it as the horse first, jocky a distant second

Also a couple of statistics to add regarding McCoy;

Last 5 seasons of races;

Over NHF, McCoy has had 374 runs and won 87 of those races. Additionally, he has come 2nd 69 times and 3rd 42 times. Overall this means he is in the top 3 52% of the time over NHF.

Over Hurdles, McCoy has had 2237 runs and won 551. He has finished 2nd 358 times and 3rd 220 times. Overall this means he is top 3 50% of the time.

Over chases, McCoy has had 1343 runs and won 300, with 222 2nd and 171 3rds. Overall this means he is in the top 3 51% of the time.

Many thanks to Mat for the response.

I have after much indecision gone for McCoy. Very little to choose between him, Edwards and Maradona, but ultimately he has dominated his sport over a longer period of time in a way which his two competitors didn't. Mat's post has convinced me that McCoy was the main driver behind that success.

Mat wrote:Also a couple of statistics to add regarding McCoy;

Last 5 seasons of races;

Over NHF, McCoy has had 374 runs and won 87 of those races. Additionally, he has come 2nd 69 times and 3rd 42 times. Overall this means he is in the top 3 52% of the time over NHF.

Over Hurdles, McCoy has had 2237 runs and won 551. He has finished 2nd 358 times and 3rd 220 times. Overall this means he is top 3 50% of the time.

Over chases, McCoy has had 1343 runs and won 300, with 222 2nd and 171 3rds. Overall this means he is in the top 3 51% of the time.

thanks for them stats- it tells me one thing though.. We all should have backed mccoy each way on every race.. Not much else

mystiroakey wrote:"Understand the concern regarding the limited number of jockey though I would say that what McCoy has achieved in his career far eclipses anything Taylor has done in his career, and I might add with a lot more class."

gonna be honest mate although you may be right you sound abit elitest with that one. And I personally would never agree that any jockey could surpass taylor..

Taylor is a Legend in his sport.. yes a mninority one. but all the same a certain GOAT of darts

Wasn't meant as elitist, I just think Taylor is an utter idiot where as McCoy always come across as a nice bloke.

In the same way Taylor is a legend in his sport, so is McCoy and like Taylor, in terms of achievement he is unparalleled amongst his peers. Whilst Taylor is a 16 time world champion, he hasn't won these consecutively where as McCoy has won more world title equivalents than him and won them consecutively. That is utter dominance.

If we are talking people who ride horses then Id say someone like Mark Todd should be included over several jockeys. (maybe he will be but I doubt it)
Eventers have to master racing cross country, dressage and show jumping so a far greater skill set than a jockey.
Todd was voted greatest rider of the 20th Century by the International Federation for Equestrian Sports and won 5 Olympic medals over a span of 28 years.
Clearly very good at what he does.

mystiroakey wrote:"Understand the concern regarding the limited number of jockey though I would say that what McCoy has achieved in his career far eclipses anything Taylor has done in his career, and I might add with a lot more class."

gonna be honest mate although you may be right you sound abit elitest with that one. And I personally would never agree that any jockey could surpass taylor..

Taylor is a Legend in his sport.. yes a mninority one. but all the same a certain GOAT of darts

In fairness to become champion jockey McCoy has to be the best over the whole season as opposed to turning up and beating your rivals over 2 weeks each year. Because of this I'd rate 17 champion jockey titles well above Taylor's world championships.

McCoy does lose a few marks, down to him having the best horse(s), not all the time but for the most.

At least Taylor does it all on his own and TBH, he has been ranked number one for I would imagine, at least 15 years.

Mat wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"Understand the concern regarding the limited number of jockey though I would say that what McCoy has achieved in his career far eclipses anything Taylor has done in his career, and I might add with a lot more class."

gonna be honest mate although you may be right you sound abit elitest with that one. And I personally would never agree that any jockey could surpass taylor..

Taylor is a Legend in his sport.. yes a mninority one. but all the same a certain GOAT of darts

Wasn't meant as elitist, I just think Taylor is an utter idiot where as McCoy always come across as a nice bloke.

In the same way Taylor is a legend in his sport, so is McCoy and like Taylor, in terms of achievement he is unparalleled amongst his peers. Whilst Taylor is a 16 time world champion, he hasn't won these consecutively where as McCoy has won more world title equivalents than him and won them consecutively. That is utter dominance.

sorry i didnt realise you knew these people.. I have no idea what bearing it makes anyway..

there is no dominance from a jockey anyway- only the horse.. Jockys make a difference yes- but they cant make a definitive difference. Gonna be honest i would honestly rather a horse was put up instead of a jocky(frankel would be my pick). Jumping also isnt the diffinitive racing for me..It also could be seen as cruel- Mccoy has seen more horses die as a jockey than any other rider ever!. I am no animal rights dude here- And i enjoy racing- But its a point that may or may not be valid.. But what it does tell us is that The sacrifice of the horse could be seen as greater than the jocky..

yeah it might sound abit stupid to say put a horse on here instead of a jockey. But for my money- Its just as reasonable as putting a jockey up!

gone with McCoy in the end. paperbag and Mat have made a really good case, and as someone who is undoubtedly the GOAT of his sport and - unlike Taylor - isn't a complete noob, I think he deserves my vote for this one.

Taylor does come across as a bit of an arrogant twerp, but is he?

Couldn't give a flying toss whether a horse dies in a race, they wouldn't even exist were it not for racing.

I used to buy horse meat in the meat section in France when I lived there. Delicious. We should sell it here.

A horse meat and cucumber sandwich. Sounds tasty.

super_realist wrote:Couldn't give a flying toss whether a horse dies in a race, they wouldn't even exist were it not for racing.

I used to buy horse meat in the meat section in France when I lived there. Delicious. We should sell it here.

so it wouldnt exist for meat then?

Stella wrote:Taylor does come across as a bit of an arrogant twerp, but is he?

Well you raise a point.

But it does make me laugh that on the same thread that Maradona is clear no.1 we are discussing the merits of a pilot(horse rider) over a legend of his trade because he is nicer!!!

mystiroakey wrote:

Stella wrote:Taylor does come across as a bit of an arrogant twerp, but is he?

Well you raise a point.

But it does make me laugh that on the same thread that Maradona is clear no.1 we are discussing the merits of a pilot(horse rider) over a legend of his trade because he is nicer!!!

He might be a pilot to a degree but who do I admire the skill set of more, some fat knacker throwing a bit of metal into a board from a few yards away or a guy who can guide half a ton of horse better than anyone at speed ?
The more I think about it if darts is on here then Torville and Dean (surely they count as one person?) should get a mention.

Well ice skating is certainly a sport IMO. And no reason why we shouldnt have them on here.. They are certainly easier to judge than a jocky or racing driver(who arnt defined by there own skill- only partly)

Torville and Dean, Nadia Comineci and Olga Korbut would all be high up on some lists of the greatest sports people.

Somebody mentioned doing a 'team' GOAT after this. Hope James & Chris make that 64

mystiroakey wrote:Well ice skating is certainly a sport IMO. And no reason why we shouldnt have them on here.. They are certainly easier to judge than a jocky or racing driver(who arnt defined by there own skill- only partly)

Judged sports shouldn't be anywhere near it either. You need a clear and definitive measure, not the whim of a few judges.

Any skiers on the list?
Ingemar Stenmark anyone?

Linsey Vonn?

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Well ice skating is certainly a sport IMO. And no reason why we shouldnt have them on here.. They are certainly easier to judge than a jocky or racing driver(who arnt defined by there own skill- only partly)

Judged sports shouldn't be anywhere near it either. You need a clear and definitive measure, not the whim of a few judges.

hehe- even team sports on the whole are judged by a ref,

So sr we are left with golf and athletics for you then..

oh sorry golf isnt a sport- Just athletics and swimming then

super_realist wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Well ice skating is certainly a sport IMO. And no reason why we shouldnt have them on here.. They are certainly easier to judge than a jocky or racing driver(who arnt defined by there own skill- only partly)

Judged sports shouldn't be anywhere near it either. You need a clear and definitive measure, not the whim of a few judges.

Dont agree with that, it would exclude gymnasts and boxers and divers, and there are some superb athletes amongst those sports.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Any skiers on the list?
Ingemar Stenmark anyone?

I thought Kjetil Aamodt should be there for skiing and Terje Haakonsen for snowboarding.
JC Killy, Franz Klammer and Hermann Maier probably deserve a mention too.

sorry snowboarding- what ya on about SR!!

are you talking about racing snowboarding or judged trick stuff!!

Btw i love snowboarding

Terje Haakonsen is a freestlyer isnt he!!!

Ah good point. Scratch him then.