v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 4

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s group was all about The Don, Bradman claimed 54% of the votes and progresses into round 2 as one of the early favourites to go all the way, joining him in round 2 is one of the greatest grand slam champions Martina Navratilova who went through with 25% of the vote. Exiting the tournament at the first stage are World Cup winner Zidane and boxing great Harry Greb.

Today’s group sees Horse Racing, Rugby, Football and Golf compete for your votes.

We have two participants championed today with articles written by forum members; please feel free to submit your own argument below for those not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Diego Maradona- Football- Championed by Hero

One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?

We already have an answer.

In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.

English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the "Hand of God" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.

Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.

Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: "It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail."

This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the "Butcher of Bilbao". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.

Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.

Gareth Edwards- Rugby- Champion by dummy_half

The facts - Wales scrum half 53 times between 1967 and 1978, scoring 20 tries. British and Irish Lions scrum half in 1971 and 1974, in successful tours to New Zealand and South Africa.

It is never easy to pick who is the greatest rugby player of all time - different requirements for specialist positions and the changes to the game following the introduction of professionalism make comparisons troublesome. However, Gareth Edwards is one name that always makes the discussion, and indeed he was voted the best rugby player of all time in a 2003 Ruugby World poll of present and former international players, and Will Carling named him the #1 in his list of 50 greatest players in 2007.

The Wales team of the 70s, even for this Englishman, is a team of legends. The Pontypool front row, Merv the Swerve Davies, Prince Barry John, Phil Bennett, Gerald Davies, JPR Williams. However, the collossus standing over all of them was Edwards. First capped at 19 and then playing the next 53 Wales internationals - never injured, never dropped and Wales's youngest ever captain. In his twelve year international career, Wales won the 5 Nations Championship 7 times. Sadly, at the time there was no rugby world cup to allow this Wales team to be regularly tested against the best the southern hemisphere had to offer - judging from how well the Welsh-dominated Lions did in New Zealand in 1971, they'd have had a good chance - the only British team even close to their legacy is the England team of 2000-2003, and they didn't dominate for anywhere near the same length of time.

Edwards was a talented youngster, given a scholarship to Millfields school where he excelled at football (even signing for Swansea City at 16), gymnastics and athletics as well as rugby. However, as a South Wales boy, it was always rugby that was closest to his heart.

Traditionally, scrum half is a very technical position, with the ability to pass the ball fast and accurately and to kick well under pressure are pre-requisites. Edwards had these attributes, but he had more also. The strength and tenacity of a back row forward meant he could dig the ball out of rucks and mauls and was prepared to carry the ball himself into the heavy traffic around the breakdown, plus while most scrum halfs of the time were defensive liabilities, he never shirked the tackling duties. Even more importantly, he was fast - as quick as most wingers, and it was this pace that saw his most famous moment, finishing off 'That Try' for the Barbarians against New Zealand in 1973.

I'm sure most of you have seen it - All Blacks wing Brian Williams kicks the ball across to near the Baa-Baas posts, where Phil Bennett retrieves and sidesteps 3 pursuers before passing to JPR Williams. Williams stands up under a high tackle and off-loads to Pullen, still in the defensive 22. Pullen, Dawes, David and Quinnell carry the ball forwards to just over the half way line, progressively passing towards the left touchline. Quinnell throws a one-handed pass aimed at his winger, but a faster-running Edwards 'intercepts' and sprints the remaining 40m to score in the corner. All this in the first 3 minutes of the most entertaining rugby match ever played.

The final words I leave to Will Carling, in summing up Edwards:

"He was a supreme athlete with supreme skills, the complete package. He played in the 1970s, but, if he played now, he would still be the best. He was outstanding at running, passing, kicking and reading the game. He sits astride the whole of rugby as the ultimate athlete on the pitch".

World Golf Hall of Fame Profile: Bobby Jones - Provided by Diggers

More than any player in history, Bobby Jones is the model of the complete golfer. Supremely gifted, Jones was also a man of vast intelligence and profound character, and he merged all three forces to become not only a singular champion, but a genuine hero. Wrote Herbert Warren Wind, "In the opinion of many people, of all the great athletes, Jones came the closest to being what we called a great man."

As a golfer, Jones was a giant. In the 1920s, he was "an ultra-athlete," according to writer and historian Charles Price, "recognized at being better at his game than any other athlete was at his." While there is no doubt Jones is the finest amateur golfer the game has ever produced, there's a strong argument that he was the greatest golfer, period. Beginning with his victory in the 1923 U.S. Open at Inwood and ending with his U.S. Amateur victory at Merion in 1930, Jones won 13 championships in 20 tries, the most imposing run of major titles the game has ever seen.

His crowning glory was The Grand Slam of 1930, in which he became the only golfer ever to win the U.S. Amateur, British Amateur, British Open and U.S. Open in the same year, indeed, the only golfer to win all four in a career. When he retired at the end of that year at the age of 28, The New York Times noted the occasion in an editorial that read, "With dignity, he quit the scene on which he nothing common did, or mean." Jones was born March 17, 1902, in Atlanta. He was clearly a prodigy, and his first championship was the 1916 U.S. Amateur, where as a 14-year-old he went to the third round.

From the beginning, Jones' swing possessed "a drowsy beauty," in the words of Bernard Darwin. Yet Jones was a passionate man who had to overcome his own frailties of temperament. The strain of competition would cause him to lose as much as 18 pounds in a week. After winning the 1926 U.S. Open, he suddenly broke into tears in his Columbus, Ohio, hotel room, the strain catching up to him. He had to dominate a fiery temper that hindered him as a youth. As talented as he was, he did not win his first championship until 1923, prompting the early part of his career to be labeled "The Seven Lean Years." But Jones had a revelation when he discovered that the key to winning was learning to score well when playing badly. "I think this is what I learned to do best of all," wrote Jones, and "The Seven Fat Years" ensued.

Jones accomplished all this while playing competitive golf no more than three months in a year at any point in his life. The rest of the time was dedicated to academics, and later, the workaday world of the law. He studied mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech, graduating in three years, received a degree in English Literature from Harvard and attended law school at Emory University, withdrawing in his third semester to pass the bar. He would go on to become one of the game's most lucid and enlightening writers. Besides his record and character, Jones' greatest legacy is Augusta National Golf Club and the Masters Tournament, which he founded in 1934. He played in the tournament several times, never finishing better than 13th. In 1948, he developed syringomyelia, a fluid-filled cavity in his spinal cord causing first pain, then paralysis. Jones never played golf again and was eventually restricted to a wheelchair until his death Dec. 18, 1971. As Wind wrote, "As a young man he was able to stand up to just about the best that life can offer, which isn't easy, and later he stood up with equal grace to just about the worst."

The USGA's award for distinguished sportsmanship is the Bob Jones Award. "What Jones did was create a model that everyone, consciously or unconsciously, followed," said William Campbell. "It is why we have so many fine people in golf. He showed the world how to do it."

Tony McCoy - Championed by Wikiedia, researched by Paperbag Puncher

Champion jockey 17 consecutive years (won it every year he's been a pro)

Over 3,600 winners. (more than any other jump jockey by a considerable margin)

McCoy has won almost every big race there is to win. His most high profile winners include the prestigious Cheltenham Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle, Queen Mother Champion Chase, King George VI Chase and the 2010 Grand National.

He has had a number of falls since becoming a jump jockey, one of the many occupational hazards that comes with race riding. McCoy has broken or dislocated almost every bone in his body (some of them multiple times), including a middle and lower vertebrae, both shoulder blades, ribs, an ankle, cheekbones, a wrist, a leg, collar bone, fingers and teeth. (He has never willingly pulled out of a race due to an injury)

Won BBC Sport's personality of the year in 2010 beating Phil Taylor and Jessica Ennis. Received more votes than previous winners Ryan Giggs, Joe Calzaghe, Chris Hoy, Zara Phillips. This is impressive coming from a sport not as main stream as others and with a dwindling fan base.

McCoy stands at 1.78m (5'10") which is relatively tall for a jockey. In order to maintain a suitable racing weight, McCoy must keep his weight down to 63.5kg (10st). McCoy's natural weight, based on his physiology, should be about 75 kg (one and a half stone) more.[4] McCoy's diet, similar to many jockeys, involves a strong mug of sugary tea for breakfast and one slice of toast (depending on the weight requirements for the afternoons racing). Breakfast is often followed by sweating in the bath for one hour. At the races, McCoy's lunch will again involve another cup of tea and a couple of jelly babies. After racing, McCoy eats dinner early to give his food time to digest. His evening meal commonly consists of lean meat or fish. He only eats dinner four times a week, so on the other three nights he goes to bed hungry. McCoy will sweat for a hour in the bath before bed.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many in the 64 who sacrifice or risk as much as AP does to be the best at what he does. To be a 17 time champion jockey shows how successful he is but also how much time he puts into his craft. He consistently rides the most horses year on year often winning on animals that have no right to win. He has a £1 million retainer to ride for JP McManus and many would be happy to only do this yet he will take every spare ride he can get in his pursuit of glory.

He may not be the most stylish of jockeys or the best pure horseman but for drive, guts, will to win and pure dominance he more than deserves to be in this company and should advance further.

In "the sport of kings" one man reigns supreme.

Snowboarding = gay skiing

sking = boring snowboarding

Diggers wrote:He might be a pilot to a degree but who do I admire the skill set of more, some fat knacker throwing a bit of metal into a board from a few yards away or a guy who can guide half a ton of horse better than anyone at speed ?

You make a really good point and as with motor sport it takes a very precise skill set to guide/drive under the pressures, speeds and rapidly changing environments that jockeys and drivers compete in. I would say that both have an argument to be far more physically taxing and ammount of skill required than other sports.

mystiroakey wrote:sking = boring snowboarding

snowboarding = skiing for beginners

skiing = snowboarding for old men

mystiroakey wrote:skiing = snowboarding for old men

snowboarding = skiing for plebs

snowboarding = skiing plus 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

MtotheC wrote:

Diggers wrote:He might be a pilot to a degree but who do I admire the skill set of more, some fat knacker throwing a bit of metal into a board from a few yards away or a guy who can guide half a ton of horse better than anyone at speed ?

You make a really good point and as with motor sport it takes a very precise skill set to guide/drive under the pressures, speeds and rapidly changing environments that jockeys and drivers compete in. I would say that both have an argument to be far more physically taxing and ammount of skill required than other sports.

The skill set is there the probalem is judging them against there counterparts.. Let alone of other sports. It really isnt just about records whjen it comes to pilots... Not saying there not deserving - but jeas its tough to gauge..

Id love to be heading off to do either Mysti. Ive only done a bit of snow boarding and it was fun, just prefer the skis and believe me its not like I've got close to mastering how to use those.
One of the best days Ive had in the mountains was on a set of ski blades, sudenly felt like I could ski like Franz Klammer...without the speed of course.

See your point Diggers, I've been snowboarding for 20 years and have no inclination to learn to ski at all, as what's the point in wasting days being rubbish at something.

yeah man - both are great!! I dont do it enough

I have only done abit of each(but i was a skatebaorder as a kid so snowboarding was allways the thing to do!!)

All about the powder oakey.
Spent a few years in Austria and you can't beat it.

Awesome.... I wish I was young and free again ...

super_realist wrote:See your point Diggers, I've been snowboarding for 20 years and have no inclination to learn to ski at all, as what's the point in wasting days being rubbish at something.

Yeah, that's what we have jobs for

mystiroakey wrote:

MtotheC wrote:

Diggers wrote:He might be a pilot to a degree but who do I admire the skill set of more, some fat knacker throwing a bit of metal into a board from a few yards away or a guy who can guide half a ton of horse better than anyone at speed ?

You make a really good point and as with motor sport it takes a very precise skill set to guide/drive under the pressures, speeds and rapidly changing environments that jockeys and drivers compete in. I would say that both have an argument to be far more physically taxing and ammount of skill required than other sports.

The skill set is there the probalem is judging them against there counterparts.. Let alone of other sports. It really isnt just about records whjen it comes to pilots... Not saying there not deserving - but jeas its tough to gauge..

Out of curiosity have you ever tried to ride a horse? Do you realise how big and powerful they are? You do realise you don't just sit on it and it goes automatically?

Someone said all great sportsmen/women make sacrifices which is very true. But how many eat 2 jelly babies a day for lunch or skip dinner completely 3 days a week for their craft? Its another level.

I voted for Edwards, even though he may not be the greatest rugby player of all time, but he did have the courtesy to come and compete in New Zealand.

paperbag_puncher wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

MtotheC wrote:

Diggers wrote:He might be a pilot to a degree but who do I admire the skill set of more, some fat knacker throwing a bit of metal into a board from a few yards away or a guy who can guide half a ton of horse better than anyone at speed ?

You make a really good point and as with motor sport it takes a very precise skill set to guide/drive under the pressures, speeds and rapidly changing environments that jockeys and drivers compete in. I would say that both have an argument to be far more physically taxing and ammount of skill required than other sports.

The skill set is there the probalem is judging them against there counterparts.. Let alone of other sports. It really isnt just about records whjen it comes to pilots... Not saying there not deserving - but jeas its tough to gauge..

Out of curiosity have you ever tried to ride a horse? Do you realise how big and powerful they are? You do realise you don't just sit on it and it goes automatically?

Someone said all great sportsmen/women make sacrifices which is very true. But how many eat 2 jelly babies a day for lunch or skip dinner completely 3 days a week for their craft? Its another level.

sorry but i was infact the first person to mention the strains and the keeping the weight down for a jockey. I really dont understand the need to try and get personal.. Your points have no bearing on this discussion what so ever- I also have a jocky in the family. And although i do not consider myself an expert I know enough.

"i am no expert on jockeys.

But.

Jockeys are allways at work to maintain a light weight- like a boxer in a way.
jockeys do have quite abit of influence.. weight is clearly an issue. but also when to sprint the horse- timming- like cycling in a way.

they have to be areodynamic as well.

Clearly the skill isnt the same as an f1 driver. But it is very hardcore stuff. Its very dangerous- probally more so than F1 these days and they certainly get a buzz out of it.

Its not just simply being small and light.. there is more to it. Not sure how much more- but certainly more.."

this was my first comment on jockeys answering mikes concerns.. Just because i call him a pilot does not for one minute mean i think that jockeys just sit on a horse! You clearly need to open your mind on this. I allways look at every side to the story..

Interesting point you raise Myster about the danger.

The thing that always gets me with jockeys and motor racing drivers is that all the ones I've met have always been little guys, but its the danger that these guys are in every time they race. no one could ever say that they dont have big hearts.

I had the amazing experience last year of doing a few "hot laps" in a V8 touring saloon, the adrenaline (for want of a better word)when screaming down a backstraight heading for a corner at about 250k, shows the courage these little guys have.

And as for those guys that race superbikes, well theyre just insane.

I've gone for Edwards out of this four. An undoubted individual great in a highly exciting and successful great team.

Maradona was an exquisitely talented footballer but a pretty unpleasant individual. Like Mike in his earlier post, I'm no tooo stressed about his scoring with his hand - if the ref or linesman had spotted it as they should, it would have been forgotten almost as soon as it happened. For me, the unpleasantness emanates from the 'Hand of God' meal that Maradona made out of it. Add to that, the drugs and we end up with someone a long way removed from what I would like a GOAT to be.

I've a lot of time and sympathy - crippled by ill health in his forties - for Bobby Jones. A huge talent and a supreme sportsman. He suffers - from me - in that golf is not a great love and I don't know enough of his playing contemporaries. Nicklaus would be my golfing GOAT although closer challenged than might be expected by Gary Player. Jones would be my second choice in this 4 but, alas, no cigar.

McCoy also has a disadvantage from me in that I prefer to judge nominees only once their career is fully over. Otherwise, how might it end up? McCoy is clearly very good in his sport but doesn't seem to have won that many of the major races (eg, only one Grand National success). I'm also not overly impressed by his 'dieting sacrifices' - that goes with the territory for all jockeys.

"I had the amazing experience last year of doing a few "hot laps" in a V8 touring saloon, the adrenaline (for want of a better word)when screaming down a backstraight heading for a corner at about 250k, shows the courage these little guys have.

And as for those guys that race superbikes, well theyre just insane"

awesome.I have a race day at brands hatch coming up, but i doubt i will get a touring car!!!!

Now if a superbike entry comes up i may have to seriously consider changing my stance on 'pilot' sportsmen. Thats hardcore stuff.

What about John Surtees Mysti, world champ on 2 and 4 wheels, the only one. That's some piloting skill.
Also we have from the UK Dougie Lampkin, the GOAT of motorcycle trials which for me is the most skilled of all motor sports, anyone remember watching Kickstart, those guys are amazing.

I work for a motorcycle 'brand' and I’ve been to a few bike events, watching the likes Scott Redding and Cal Crutchlow live fly round a track really helps you to appreciate the remarkable amount of skill required to 'pilot' those machines

mystiroakey wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

MtotheC wrote:

Diggers wrote:He might be a pilot to a degree but who do I admire the skill set of more, some fat knacker throwing a bit of metal into a board from a few yards away or a guy who can guide half a ton of horse better than anyone at speed ?

You make a really good point and as with motor sport it takes a very precise skill set to guide/drive under the pressures, speeds and rapidly changing environments that jockeys and drivers compete in. I would say that both have an argument to be far more physically taxing and ammount of skill required than other sports.

The skill set is there the probalem is judging them against there counterparts.. Let alone of other sports. It really isnt just about records whjen it comes to pilots... Not saying there not deserving - but jeas its tough to gauge..

Out of curiosity have you ever tried to ride a horse? Do you realise how big and powerful they are? You do realise you don't just sit on it and it goes automatically?

Someone said all great sportsmen/women make sacrifices which is very true. But how many eat 2 jelly babies a day for lunch or skip dinner completely 3 days a week for their craft? Its another level.

sorry but i was infact the first person to mention the strains and the keeping the weight down for a jockey. I really dont understand the need to try and get personal.. Your points have no bearing on this discussion what so ever- I also have a jocky in the family. And although i do not consider myself an expert I know enough.

Apologies if I insulted you didn't mean to be personal. Was genuinely curious. Funny thing is I'm not exactly that big a racing fan. I just think jockeys are often underrated/misunderstood and not properly appreciated. Wrecks my head when people come on claiming the horse does all the work. Apologies again!

Due to the case being made for McCoy, I vote for him.

Paperbag, you've been reading Francis novels havent you

Paper bag you haven't offended me it just winds me up when people asks questions about a poster in a way to try and devalue there opinions... But thanks for the apology ..

Voted Edwards. Tactical vote as Maradona - who I might have reluctantly supported at this stage at least - is well in the lead and I wanted to make sure Edwards also got through.

ShahenshahG wrote:Paperbag, you've been reading Francis novels havent you

I'm afraid that ones gone over my head Shah.. Do explain?

Dick Francis presumably.