Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 14 Jan - 21:05

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 19 Jan - 11:31

It would be extremely stupid and unfair to start Earls in the back three. He hasn't played there for a while now, and there are better options than him. If he starts ahead of the likes of Trimble, well I would just give up on international rugby if I was Trimble until Kidney leaves. Zebo has also been playing extremely well, and Gilroy has more talent there than Earls, at least in my opinion. At 15 he may get a shot as other players have been injured, but again Kearney looked fantastic there on his return from injury.

Val, you couldn't possibly want Earls to start in the back three? It would be such a mindless selection.

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 19 Jan - 12:05

Kearney has to be nailed on starter at 15. He looks like he's never been away. I would also have Zebo ahead of Earls as a 15. The only place Earls could possibly start is in the centre.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Sat 19 Jan - 12:47

Notch wrote:He starts ahead of O'Driscoll then? Or BOD moves to 12.

It's just stupid when you have Zebo, Gilroy, Trimble, McFadden and Fitzgerald all playing well on the wing. There's no rule that certain players have to be involved.

+1

That's the thing I don't understand why people (not just Val) think that he has a god given right to a place, he isn't even playing that well, (fingers crossed he puts in a good performance tomorrow- but not good enough to knock Leinster our Cool

)

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 13:17

I'm sure he'd do well, I remain convinced he is a much better winger than a centre (which is frustrating as McFadden is a better centre than a winger).

But either he gets picked ahead of BOD or alongside him. It's such a bad message to send out to guys who are playing in that position and playing well.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 15:44

Notch wrote:I'm sure he'd do well, I remain convinced he is a much better winger than a centre (which is frustrating as McFadden is a better centre than a winger).

But either he gets picked ahead of BOD or alongside him. It's such a bad message to send out to guys who are playing in that position and playing well.

McFadden isn't international quality in the centre. I've never said that Earls should start in the back three. I maintain that he will start. I have never said whether I think he should be in the team or not.

For what it is worth, I reckon he will be wearing 12.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 15:47

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It would be extremely stupid and unfair to start Earls in the back three. He hasn't played there for a while now, and there are better options than him. If he starts ahead of the likes of Trimble, well I would just give up on international rugby if I was Trimble until Kidney leaves. Zebo has also been playing extremely well, and Gilroy has more talent there than Earls, at least in my opinion. At 15 he may get a shot as other players have been injured, but again Kearney looked fantastic there on his return from injury.

Val, you couldn't possibly want Earls to start in the back three? It would be such a mindless selection.

Rory, that is extremely over the top to say that it is a mindless selection. Earls has performed excellently for Ireland on the wing on numerous occasions. For what its worth, I think that Trimble has to play, especially with Bowe out as our backs are so physically small.

by toml Sat 19 Jan - 15:54

valjester wrote:...For what its worth, I think that Trimble has to play, especially with Bowe out as our backs are so physically small.

He must have the best kick chase in Ireland, has used it to good effect for Ulster

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 19 Jan - 15:54

It isn't over the top at all. Earls has not been playing in the back three for a long time now. Other players there have been playing some exceptional rugby and more than deserve an international call up. What sort of message would it send if Earls is selected over the other guys? It would be very demotivating.

At 13 he is the best option arguably alongside BOD at this point rather than behind him. In the back three however, he is currently behind many other options.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 15:54

valjester wrote:
Notch wrote:I'm sure he'd do well, I remain convinced he is a much better winger than a centre (which is frustrating as McFadden is a better centre than a winger).

But either he gets picked ahead of BOD or alongside him. It's such a bad message to send out to guys who are playing in that position and playing well.

McFadden isn't international quality in the centre. I've never said that Earls should start in the back three. I maintain that he will start. I have never said whether I think he should be in the team or not.

For what it is worth, I reckon he will be wearing 12.

Yeah, I agree. I don't hold out too much hope for our backs until Kidney goes and we get a new pair of eyes in.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 16:06

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It isn't over the top at all. Earls has not been playing in the back three for a long time now. Other players there have been playing some exceptional rugby and more than deserve an international call up. What sort of message would it send if Earls is selected over the other guys? It would be very demotivating.

At 13 he is the best option arguably alongside BOD at this point rather than behind him. In the back three however, he is currently behind many other options.

In reality he's not that far behind others though, and his previous international form on the wing will count for a lot. I will admit that the fact I don't rate McFadden at all means that I don't consider him when looking at the options. I said a few months ago that I wanted to see a Earls Marshall partnership in the centres, unfortunately that is unlikely considering Marshall's latest injury, and Kidney's conservatism. I would like to see a back three of Kearney Trimble Zebo but again I'm not going to complain if Earls turns up there, though I would obviously prefer he didn't/

Notch;The Argentina match has given me hope, I know hope is a horrible, horrible feeling and most of my teams normally let me down, but f**k it I'm very hopeful at this minute, and I reserve the right to remain hopeful until 2 minutes into the Wales match when Ireland decide to boot the ball away despite having a 10 on 1 overlap.

by eirebilly Sat 19 Jan - 16:19

I have personally never understood the negativity directed towards Earls, he is a quality player. I can understand some people thinking that he is a better winger than 13 but i also feel that he is a very good 13. Currently i would have him ahead of BOD but if BOD shows some better form and match fitness then he is the better option at 13. That to me would mean that Earls would drop to the bench.

Kidney will have to be very consistent in this i feel.

I am just slightly peeved that ROG and D'Arcy will make the squad to be honest. I know that D'Arcy has been playing well for Leinster but i just dont feel that he is up to International standard anymore. ROG is well past his useby date, legend of the game but has to be let go.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 16:24

eirebilly wrote:I have personally never understood the negativity directed towards Earls, he is a quality player. I can understand some people thinking that he is a better winger than 13 but i also feel that he is a very good 13. Currently i would have him ahead of BOD but if BOD shows some better form and match fitness then he is the better option at 13. That to me would mean that Earls would drop to the bench.

Kidney will have to be very consistent in this i feel.

I am just slightly peeved that ROG and D'Arcy will make the squad to be honest. I know that D'Arcy has been playing well for Leinster but i just dont feel that he is up to International standard anymore. ROG is well past his useby date, legend of the game but has to be let go.

The ROG call is more inexplicable but I would agree that Darcy is past it. Unfortunately, his most likely direct replacement Marshall has been injured too often to make a serious push for the team. I would like to see the Earls Bod combo tried again.

by eirebilly Sat 19 Jan - 16:33

Earls at 13 and BOD at 12 i presume val?

I have never understood why Paddy Wallace is so often overlooked. I think that he would make an ideal 12 for BOD or Earls myself...
I know he has had a bit of a horrid international past but i still have him ahead of D'Arcy right now.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 16:50

eirebilly wrote:Earls at 13 and BOD at 12 i presume val?

I have never understood why Paddy Wallace is so often overlooked. I think that he would make an ideal 12 for BOD or Earls myself...
I know he has had a bit of a horrid international past but i still have him ahead of D'Arcy right now.

Wallace is not a look to the future though, and there is no point playing him when Kidney isn't going to use him in a way he can play. Earls in the 12 jersey playing 13.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 16:55

valjester wrote:Notch;The Argentina match has given me hope, I know hope is a horrible, horrible feeling and most of my teams normally let me down, but f**k it I'm very hopeful at this minute, and I reserve the right to remain hopeful until 2 minutes into the Wales match when Ireland decide to boot the ball away despite having a 10 on 1 overlap.

No doubt we can score tries against a passive, drifting defence. If we get stopped on the gainline and are faced with a rush defence I can't see where our answers come from.

by eirebilly Sat 19 Jan - 16:56

ROG and D'Arcy are not looks to the future either val. I just feel that Wallace has been good enough for Ulster to warrent a squad position at the very least.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 16:57

eirebilly wrote:I have personally never understood the negativity directed towards Earls, he is a quality player. I can understand some people thinking that he is a better winger than 13 but i also feel that he is a very good 13. Currently i would have him ahead of BOD but if BOD shows some better form and match fitness then he is the better option at 13. That to me would mean that Earls would drop to the bench.

You know how it is. Some players have to earn their spot, some players earn their spot and don't necessarily get it and some players get given their spot regardless. The resentment is not against Earls, its against the system.

I really think we have to wait until we get a non-irish coach who won't bow into political pressures in selection.

by eirebilly Sat 19 Jan - 17:02

Notch, there is alot of negativity towards Earls, there really is.

All i am saying is that if Earls wants to play 13 (and he does) then he should play 13 but that also means that if there is a better option, eg BOD, then he will have to settle for a place on the bench.

by neilthom7 Sat 19 Jan - 17:08

I don't know who will and who wont be in but I would like to see a consistent policy just for example if you leave out Court and look to the future in Kilcoyne thats fine but then there is no way O'Gara should be on the bench either, in the middle of the park D'Arcy will almost certainly play 12 as he is the guy who has played 12 all season and not been missing through injury. Earls will have to go one on one with BOD, if you are looking to the future D'Arcy will probably still play because Marshall is not available but maybe Earls gets the 13 sport. I just want it to be consistent. I feel whoever comes in as the next coach will have their favorites etc unless they are foreign so maybe Notch has a point about the coach

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 17:09

eirebilly wrote:Notch, there is alot of negativity towards Earls, there really is.

All i am saying is that if Earls wants to play 13 (and he does) then he should play 13 but that also means that if there is a better option, eg BOD, then he will have to settle for a place on the bench.

It's not to do with Earls, its to do with the fact he is an untouchable. I hope he is named on the bench if he's not at 13 but I don't hold out much hope.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 17:10

neilthom7 wrote:I don't know who will and who wont be in but I would like to see a consistent policy just for example if you leave out Court and look to the future in Kilcoyne thats fine

After the way Court has been going, you know, in another nation we'd be talking about him putting Healy under pressure not being dropped to the bench to accommodate a future star. I'm serious. How many guys do we have who are dominating opposition tightheads in the scrum every week?

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 17:11

Notch wrote:
No doubt we can score tries against a passive, drifting defence. If we get stopped on the gainline and are faced with a rush defence I can't see where our answers come from.

Yes that is a problem, but hopefully we will have learned. I am worryingly confident of us playing well this tournament. Murray and Sexton's form has been in an optimistic mood. We have extremely strong options in the backline. Of course Rog will destroy any hope if he gets a minute on the pitch.

eirebilly wrote:ROG and D'Arcy are not looks to the future either val. I just feel that Wallace has been good enough for Ulster to warrent a squad position at the very least.

Kidney made his decision with Wallace in the summer, unless there are lots of injuries he won't be involved. Personally as disappointed as I am for Wallace, I think it is the right decision, just wish he would do the same with the others.

Notch wrote:
You know how it is. Some players have to earn their spot, some players earn their spot and don't necessarily get it and some players get given their spot regardless. The resentment is not against Earls, its against the system.

I really think we have to wait until we get a non-irish coach who won't bow into political pressures in selection.

Notch, I think it is a bit unfair to say that Earls hasn't earned his spot based on his recent performances for Ireland, he has never let us down and performed quite well every time he has been given the chance.

by eirebilly Sat 19 Jan - 17:12

But Earls is not the only 'untouchable' Notch. It would appear that ROG and D'Arcy are as well. ROG and Earls probably are on the recieving end of negativity than any other players though. Thats all i am saying.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 17:13

It's the lack of account that is payed to provincial form, which is largely ignored, which annoys me Val. There has to be a balance between the two obviously but if guys are performing there for the provinces it should rewarded.

by neilthom7 Sat 19 Jan - 17:14

Well yes I agree I think Court should be there off course I was just illustrating a point based on the Autumn Internationals selection

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 17:15

eirebilly wrote:But Earls is not the only 'untouchable' Notch. It would appear that ROG and D'Arcy are as well. ROG and Earls probably are on the recieving end of negativity than any other players though. Thats all i am saying.

D'Arcy I agree with you. But we have a lack of options at 12 compared to the abundant options in the back three and 10. The issue with Earls is if he gets a wing spot when we have so many guys getting gametime there and he's not. Have no real issue with him at centre. He's average enough at test level but we lack options.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 17:19

Notch wrote:
eirebilly wrote:But Earls is not the only 'untouchable' Notch. It would appear that ROG and D'Arcy are as well. ROG and Earls probably are on the recieving end of negativity than any other players though. Thats all i am saying.

D'Arcy I agree with you. But we have a lack of options at 12 compared to the abundant options in the back three and 10. The issue with Earls is if he gets a wing spot when we have so many guys getting gametime there and he's not. Have no real issue with him at centre. He's average enough at test level but we lack options.

I think lots of people do have a bit of an irrational blindspot with Earls to be honest. I think he has been above average in the centre to be honest. I would have no issue with him not making the team but I think people go over the top on his mistakes and tend to focus more on his faults than his attributes.

On Kilcoyne v Court; I'm happy going for the youthful option. Kilcoyne has been very good this season. I am p*ssed off that the same isn't being done with Rog.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 18:42

Bod appears to be playing in the 12 channel tonight with Darcy occupying the 13 channel, at least on attacking ball.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 18:48

valjester wrote:
Notch wrote:
eirebilly wrote:But Earls is not the only 'untouchable' Notch. It would appear that ROG and D'Arcy are as well. ROG and Earls probably are on the recieving end of negativity than any other players though. Thats all i am saying.

D'Arcy I agree with you. But we have a lack of options at 12 compared to the abundant options in the back three and 10. The issue with Earls is if he gets a wing spot when we have so many guys getting gametime there and he's not. Have no real issue with him at centre. He's average enough at test level but we lack options.

I think lots of people do have a bit of an irrational blindspot with Earls to be honest. I think he has been above average in the centre to be honest. I would have no issue with him not making the team but I think people go over the top on his mistakes and tend to focus more on his faults than his attributes.

On Kilcoyne v Court; I'm happy going for the youthful option. Kilcoyne has been very good this season. I am p*ssed off that the same isn't being done with Rog.

See, what is that about? Tom Court is 32! Not only do props mature late, test matches tend to be played in the present day. We have great depth now but it's as silly to write Court off because of his age as to mindlessly keep picking ROG because of his seniority. Just the form players in their best positions. It's all we ask.

It should be a Healy vs Court debate, not a Kilcoyne vs Court debate. I'm not saying he starts ahead of Healy but those two are two of the most in-form looseheads in Europe. Ideally you'd want one for 50 mins and the other for 30.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 18:59

Notch wrote:
valjester wrote:
Notch wrote:
eirebilly wrote:But Earls is not the only 'untouchable' Notch. It would appear that ROG and D'Arcy are as well. ROG and Earls probably are on the recieving end of negativity than any other players though. Thats all i am saying.

D'Arcy I agree with you. But we have a lack of options at 12 compared to the abundant options in the back three and 10. The issue with Earls is if he gets a wing spot when we have so many guys getting gametime there and he's not. Have no real issue with him at centre. He's average enough at test level but we lack options.

I think lots of people do have a bit of an irrational blindspot with Earls to be honest. I think he has been above average in the centre to be honest. I would have no issue with him not making the team but I think people go over the top on his mistakes and tend to focus more on his faults than his attributes.

On Kilcoyne v Court; I'm happy going for the youthful option. Kilcoyne has been very good this season. I am p*ssed off that the same isn't being done with Rog.

See, what is that about? Tom Court is 32! Not only do props mature late, test matches tend to be played in the present day. We have great depth now but it's as silly to write Court off because of his age as to mindlessly keep picking ROG because of his seniority. Just the form players in their best positions. It's all we ask.

It should be a Healy vs Court debate, not a Kilcoyne vs Court debate. I'm not saying he starts ahead of Healy but those two are two of the most in-form looseheads in Europe. Ideally you'd want one for 50 mins and the other for 30.

I think that Kilcoyne has been really excellent in the games he has played this season so I don't mind the decision going to the younger player, who is more Irish as well which will always colour my view, but I don't think there can really be any question over Healy being first choice. There is no denying that Court is in superb form though. Personally I would have him on the bench but like I said its not a bad decision my Kidney with an eye to the future.

ROG is an inexplicable call, but everyone is saying that, most of us have thought that for about two years at this stage.

Reddan isn't going great recently which is a bit of a worry.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 19:31

See, thats just it. Pure politics because he has an Aussie accent. Kilcoyne has been good but I would be staggered if Court doesn't make the bench at least because as one of the form players in Ireland, it's remarkable no-one is touting him for a start.

I don't give a shoite if he's an Aussie Ulsterman. He's the guy who is playing out of his skin and we need that. Healy should still start but he's being pushed very close.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 19:40

Notch wrote:See, thats just it. Pure politics because he has an Aussie accent. Kilcoyne has been good but I would be staggered if Court doesn't make the bench at least because as one of the form players in Ireland, it's remarkable no-one is touting him for a start.

I don't give a shoite if he's an Aussie Ulsterman. He's the guy who is playing out of his skin and we need that. Healy should still start but he's being pushed very close.

I don't think the Aussie accent has any real impact on the decision. If that was the case Strauss wouldn't have made the team in autumn.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 19:50

valjester wrote:
Notch wrote:See, thats just it. Pure politics because he has an Aussie accent. Kilcoyne has been good but I would be staggered if Court doesn't make the bench at least because as one of the form players in Ireland, it's remarkable no-one is touting him for a start.

I don't give a shoite if he's an Aussie Ulsterman. He's the guy who is playing out of his skin and we need that. Healy should still start but he's being pushed very close.

I don't think the Aussie accent has any real impact on the decision. If that was the case Strauss wouldn't have made the team in autumn.

Look you know how it is. Strauss and Bent came in, they were getting LOTS of flak for it, and they needed to show they were developing young Irish props. They needed the blood at tighthead and hooker more than loosehead. They didn't want the headline of an all Tri-Nations front row finishing the match which was the possibility if Court was on the bench. The big lad was an easy sacrificial lamb after Twickenham. Kilcoyne was a good story for Irish Rugby; young prop, Munster man. A good counter to the poaching allegations; the sporting press needed to be appeased. They probably tossed Gilroy and Henderson a cap or two to appease the Ulster blazers in turn.

He's been treated appallingly and he knows it. You only need to see his reaction to our penalty try against Leinster to see that.

I'm sorry if this sounds cynical, but there is no part of me that believes Kidney is making all the selection calls. His contract is running down and he's very unpopular, if he wants to keep his job it's not a time for him to stand up to the people above him.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 19:53

Notch wrote:
valjester wrote:
Notch wrote:See, thats just it. Pure politics because he has an Aussie accent. Kilcoyne has been good but I would be staggered if Court doesn't make the bench at least because as one of the form players in Ireland, it's remarkable no-one is touting him for a start.

I don't give a shoite if he's an Aussie Ulsterman. He's the guy who is playing out of his skin and we need that. Healy should still start but he's being pushed very close.

I don't think the Aussie accent has any real impact on the decision. If that was the case Strauss wouldn't have made the team in autumn.

Look you know how it is. Strauss and Bent came in, they were getting LOTS of flak for it, and they needed to show they were developing young Irish props. They needed the blood at tighthead and hooker more than loosehead. They didn't want the headline of a Tri-Nations front row finishing the match which was the possibility if Court was on the bench. The big lad was an easy sacrificial lamb after Twickenham. Kilcoyne was a good story for Irish Rugby; young prop, Munster man. A good counter to the poaching allegations; the sporting press needed to be appeased.

He's been treated appallingly and he knows it. You only need to see his reaction to our penalty try against Leinster to see that.

I think you are slightly over reacting. I'd have Court on the bench but I don't think giving Kilcoyne the spot is outrageous.

Reddan's form must be a worry for the Irish management. Murray would do well to not get injured.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 19 Jan - 19:57

I have to say I do feel that Court has been treated unfairly. Trimble also, he is often leapfrogged by other players even when he is in great form.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 19 Jan - 19:57

Fortunately Murray has been showing form again recently, Val.

by valjester Sat 19 Jan - 20:58

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Fortunately Murray has been showing form again recently, Val.

Murray has been great all season, except for the disaster against Racing, but he has been injured recently and didn't finish last week as he ran out steam.

On Trimble I think he has to start, he won't though.

by Thomond Sat 19 Jan - 21:04

Zebo has arguably been the best back in the country this year, I think it would be very harsh to drop him., Trimble isn't used correctly with Irleand but he can effective if used the right way.

by **Notch** Sat 19 Jan - 21:11

Think Zebo should start for sure. Would be tempted to include Gilroy ahead of Trimble despite the fact Trimble has had a better season- as I've said before Irelands backs stand very deep and hold their width. Regardless of whether or not this is good back play, this suits Gilroy much more than Trimble imo.

Harsh on Trimble, who has been the form winger along with Zebo and is I believe still a better rugby player than Gilroy.

by Thomond Sat 19 Jan - 21:13

Trimble could very well start, I am just saying that for the way we use our wings, Gilroy or Fitz would be better, we don't use Trimble or his talents well at all.

by toml Sun 20 Jan - 7:07

Kilcoyne is developing yes, has potential but is nowhere near in the same class as Court or Healy.
D'arcy is the best fit 12 available
ROG is maybe 4th best 10 available

It's a different argument

by The Great Aukster Sun 20 Jan - 8:44

Court is the best scrummaging loose-head in Ireland, however Kidney isn't looking to dominate the scrum. Deccie prefers to have parity in the scrum and a LH who can carry the ball. Kilcoyne is a closer 'like for like' Healy replacement. However if Cian were injured I'd expect Court would start, but while he's fit it's understandable why Kilcoyne is on the Kidneyworld bench.

Trimble is playing exceptional rugby - at Ulster... and is far more effective that Gilroy in the team. Ireland don't play on the gainline, so Andy is just too far away to threaten intercepts, chase kicks and force turnovers through big hits. Ireland don't play an offloading game so a player like Trimble cutting a line from the blindside is rendered ineffective. If Kidney gets the team playing on the gainline a la Argentina then Trimble should start otherwise he shouldn't.

by Standulstermen Sun 20 Jan - 8:54

The elephant in the room is that our options at 13 aren't great. We have Marshall (albeit injured) looking like the real deal at 12 with McSharry performing well too but at 13 we have an injury disrupted and (to be honest) underwhelming Earls, BOD who does now seem to be neck and neck with age in his race and Cave who while intelligent hasn't been tearing it up.

I am sincerely hoping Griffin or Farrell come through or Earls gets an extended, injury free period at provincial level. Leinster last night struggled because they possessed little or no running threat at 12 and 13

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Sun 20 Jan - 9:07

I agree with stand, our 13's are pretty poor at the moment.

Any other young lads on the horizon???

O'malley? Doubt it!
Barnes? Nope.
Griffin? Maybe.

Other left field future options? Bowe? Fitz? Payne? Henshaw?

by Standulstermen Sun 20 Jan - 9:14

Henshaw I would leave at XV with a view to him challenging Kearney in a year or two

Henshaw, Zebo, Farrell, Marshall, Gilroy, JJ, Marmion

Is a dream if a back line. Throw in Griffin, Madigan, McGrath potentially and the fact that Kearney, fitz, earls etc aren't exactly old and it ain't so bad

by The Great Aukster Sun 20 Jan - 11:40

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Other left field future options? Bowe? Fitz? Payne? Henshaw?

There isn't much point in talking about the players for Outside Centre in isolation from those playing Inside Centre, in the same way there is little point in talking about an openside in isolation from the rest of the backrow. However the team selection for centre needs to be looked at in the even wider context of the whole team. Traditional rugby philosophy would have dictated a powerful pack winning quality ball, then spinning it to a big man running straight in the centre sucking in defenders to release the nippy players through the holes created. Simples.

Kidney has persisted with this model despite not having the personnel to make it work. The fallacy that the centres are "extra flankers" for example, when every player needs those skills now. Forwards don't just lift and grunt but actually handle the ball and more importantly run with it. The first goal is to break the gain line and that doesn't matter if it's by a Manu Tuilagi or a Sean O'Brien. The second goal is to exploit the stretched defence by scoring.

Gordon D'Arcy used to make yards and so took more than one defender to stop him, but that ability has been on the wane ever since his broken arm in 2008. However despite that diminishing aspect of his game for Ireland he is still effective for Leinster, because his role has changed. Now Leinster have forwards who do that power running, D'Arcy's job is as a link to exploit the stretched defence.
Ulster are trying to use the same 'total rugby' concept with guys like Afoa, Ferris, Henderson and especially Williams doing the power running. So Wallace and Cave play mostly a heads-up distributing game with an occasional break rather than the other way round.
Munster it would seem are somewhere in between the traditional game and the new approach.

All four provinces have shown that Ireland have the forwards who can handle the ball so there is no reason why the Test team can't play a much more open game. This is an advantage that Ireland have over some other nations and should be cashed in on. The result is that all the "small" clever players that Ireland have in midfield suddenly become options in the Test side and Centre is no longer an issue.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Sun 20 Jan - 12:08

this is what I'd go for for the Wolfhounds game:

Court-Strauss-Bent
henderson-toner
SOB-Wilson-TOD
Boss-Madigan
McSharry-BOD (c)
Fitz-Kearney-O'Halloran

Sherry-Kilcoyne-Fitzpatrick-DOC-Ruddock-Marshall-Jackson-Henshaw

Strauss, SOB, BOD, Fitz and Kearney in there to get game time.

Henderson in at lock as I think that is where he will be used in the 6N with SOB, POM and possibly Fez ahead of him.

TOD starts as he has been really impressive as has O'Halloran and McSharry.

Toner in as someone has to call lineouts and DOC isn't one for that

by UlstermaninGlasgow Sun 20 Jan - 12:23

For the Wolfies I'd be tempted to give a few of the lads who have a chance to make the senior squad a go. So the likes of Henshaw, Marshall, McSharry, Stevenson, Toner etc.

Kilcoyne Strauss Bent
Stevenson Toner
Henderson Wilson O'Donnell
Marshall Madigan
McSharry O'Driscoll
Fitzgerald Henshaw O'Halloran

Sherry, Court, Fitzpatrick, Ruddock, Dave O'Callaghan, Marmion, Jackson, McFadden

by Marshes Sun 20 Jan - 16:25

Do we think anything has changed for this squad after the last round of HC games?

Main thinks for me:

- Zebo has put his hand up highest over the course of the season to be starting on a the wings. His performance against R.Metro should see him nailed on to start against Wales.(My other shout would be for Trimble).
- Munster looked so much more threatening with Keatley at 10. This should see ROG out of the final squad, great servant to the team, but his time has been and gone(although it is not likely to happen whil he is available).
- Henry should be starting, having a 7 at 7 will bring more balance to the backrow, and his form this year easily merits it.

by UlstermaninGlasgow Sun 20 Jan - 16:53

I'd agree that Munster looked more threatening with Keatley, although that's not really hard when all ROG seems to do these days is kick it away... Still looked a little lateral in the first half hour but once they got their tails up, no one was stopping them, especially with Zebo in such form.

Henry should have sealed his place in the 7 shirt when he put in a MOTM performance vs Leinster and Saints before Christmas. Take your pick of O'Brien/O'Mahoney for 6 but Henry must start. However I can see both O'Brien and O'Mahoney starting.....

For the other wing spot I would imagine it's between Gilroy and Trimble. Gilroy has been unlucky with a few knocks in recent weeks and so hasn't been able to show his ability, while Trimble has responded to his dropping from the Ireland squad admirably. The 23 jersey looks to be a fight between the loser of Trimble/Gilroy, McFadden, Earls and Fitzgerald. Probably McFadden's to lose, but Earls is the definition of a utility back and Fitzy has one more games to show his fitness before the Wales game.

Want this team for Wales

Healy - Best - Ross
Ryan - McCarthy
O'Brien - Heaslip - Henry

Murray - Sexton
D'Arcy - O'Driscoll
Zebo - Kearney - Trimble

Cronin, Court, Bent, O'Callaghan, O'Mahoney, Marshall, Madigan, Gilroy

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