Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

Rods, YES WE WILL WIN THE SLAM THIS YEAR.

There I said it.

the-goon wrote:
So it's Kidney fault ROG has been playing so badly, leaving him on the bench for so long??? It seems every mistake he's ever made is cos he's stiff coming off the bench. Something we can agree with!! Kidney out!!

P.S. he did play against Wales last year, got the last 5 min or so, but like I said I don't blame ROG for any defeat, he tried his best. I blame the mgt team who can't see his best isn't good enough.

I'm not blaming anyone. The situation is that last year going into the 6Ns, ROG was in great form. Six weeks sitting on the bench for Ireland later, he is completely undercooked heading into a Heineken Cup QF (and then picks up a leg injury).

Thats what is going to happen to Keatley, Jackson or Madigan if they sit on the bench for Ireland as Sexton really throws a strop if he is subsituted.

He got 3 minutes against Wales - if he was Leo Cullen there would be letters to the paper about it

How about giving a motive as to why "the brass" want ROG playing sitting on the bench?

Mickado wrote:Rods, YES WE WILL WIN THE SLAM THIS YEAR.

There I said it.

Good man Mick!

Funny how ROG didn't get any game time and this is an excuse to why he got injured shortly after and has since played poorly

however....

Mick McCarthy or Peter O'Mahony who were also on the bench went on to have excellent campaigns and have continued to improve in to this year

“It’s a real pleasing thing,” added Kiss. “All the coaches are happy to see Luke back again after all of his injury problems. It is nice to see him back on his feet so quickly this time. He’s right in the shop window now.”

Les Kiss on Fitzgerald

Looks like Lukey has a shot

red_stag wrote:But the squad is being shook up a bit.

I think we are seeing good experimentation. Kidney went for the controversial Strauss selection in the Autumn, he did the same with Michael Bent, he gambled with Zebo as a fullback, he brought in the extremely inexperienced Iain Henderson, Craig Gilroy has come into the team.

Apart from ROGs continual presence whats the issue. Having Darcy start? Or having O'Callaghan around the team.

Darcy is still be consistently picked by Leinster. Everyone worships the ground Schmidt walks on and he has never dropped Darcy. Who else is he going to pick? Paddy Wallace? James Downey? Fergus McFadden is a great winger but is not an international 12. Anything of worth he has achieved for Leinster or Ireland is as a winger.

O'Callaghan was dropped by Ireland for Ryan a long time ago. He hung around as O'Connell was injured a lot. He has now been by passed by Mike McCarthy.

The squad was shook up a bit in the autumn which was fair enough. Strauss and Bent may have been controversial but not from a playing perspective. Strauss is head and shoulders above the others save Best. Bent was called up because Fitz was injured and Archer/Hagan would have been more risk in that we know that they struggle. Injuries forced his hand there.

Donncha about the squad wasn't an issue in the AI's but let's not forget that the last time Deccie had a full deck of locks to pick from, O'Callaghan was in front of Ryan. If donncha remains in the squad ahead of Henderson I feel it flies in the face if his kilcoyne/court selections. He moved Ireland in the right direction in the autumn with youth but his hand was forced through injury to a certain extent. I'm not trying to take anything away from him but we are currently on a winning streak of 1. Let's not make a saint out of a sinner just yet.

The ROG issue just beggars belief at this stage but I don't hold kidney responsible as I get the feeling there is substantial pressure to retain him. I will reserve judgement on where Ireland are going until after the 6N but thereafter we need a new set up

what are the kicking stats from the rabo and HC this year?

The few times i have seen Jackson he has not kicked well from the ground. I would guess Rog is there because if anything happens to Sexton i would not fancy Madigan,Jackson or Keatley to kick a tricky last minute penalty to win a high pressure game.

The 3 young pretenders as of today are superior all round players but goal kicking will be important.

As far as I am aware keatleys kicking stats (all together) are higher than O'Garas this season

dublin_dave wrote:what are the kicking stats from the rabo and HC this year?

The few times i have seen Jackson he has not kicked well from the ground. I would guess Rog is there because if anything happens to Sexton i would not fancy Madigan,Jackson or Keatley to kick a tricky last minute penalty to win a high pressure game.

The 3 young pretenders as of today are superior all round players but goal kicking will be important.

All the more reason to develop players outside of 10 who can kick.

Sin é wrote:

the-goon wrote:
So it's Kidney fault ROG has been playing so badly, leaving him on the bench for so long??? It seems every mistake he's ever made is cos he's stiff coming off the bench. Something we can agree with!! Kidney out!!

P.S. he did play against Wales last year, got the last 5 min or so, but like I said I don't blame ROG for any defeat, he tried his best. I blame the mgt team who can't see his best isn't good enough.

I'm not blaming anyone. The situation is that last year going into the 6Ns, ROG was in great form. Six weeks sitting on the bench for Ireland later, he is completely undercooked heading into a Heineken Cup QF (and then picks up a leg injury).

Thats what is going to happen to Keatley, Jackson or Madigan if they sit on the bench for Ireland as Sexton really throws a strop if he is subsituted.

He got 3 minutes against Wales - if he was Leo Cullen there would be letters to the paper about it

How about giving a motive as to why "the brass" want ROG playing sitting on the bench?

He was in average form at best last year, Munster managed 6 out of 6 last season despite Rog not because of him.

Madigan really should be benching, if Sexton gets injured early on, well I dread the though of Rog getting so much time. He managed to be responsible for two tries being conceded against Argentina in about 5 minutes, think what he could achieve with 60.

Standulstermen wrote:As far as I am aware keatleys kicking stats (all together) are higher than O'Garas this season

Keatley's stats are the best in the Rabo, I think.

profitius; That has to happen, Murray especially should still be kicking, he was allowed to kick for the Irish u20s and he was good. If he still kicked it would help relieve pressure on Keatley or Hanrahan at Munster and just allow them to focus on playing their way into the team instead of fans getting on their back about poor kicking, which really is just a small part of outhalf play. Absolutely crazy decision by whoever took him of that duty.

The inclusion of ROG beggars belief at this stage. He has proved himself this season to be a liability for Munster and his cameos for Ireland were nothing short of embarrassing. It is a very undignified ending to a pretty stellar career.

More than anything else it is unbelievable short termism in selection. This time next season we could be sitting one injury from Sexton away to a hugely inexperienced backline. While this thread seems to be descending into a tribal tirade (as usual) from some fans about keeping ROG in the side or that putting young players on the bench does them no good, then the selection of Kilcoyne is deeply puzzling. If the reasons for keeping ROG are to be believed then Kilcoyne has absolutely no place in the squad. Let's set aside that Court has arguably been the best Irish prop this season and that selection between him and Healy should be a genuine conversation (I'd go with Healy of course but it merits debate), few fans have raised an eyebrow at Kilcoyne's likely place on the bench. And why should we? We have a serious problem with young Irish props and so giving Kilcoyne some experience, even only 15/20 minutes from the bench should be applauded. At least if there was some crisis with Healy and Court we know we have someone up to the task at international level.

The same is going to happen with the centres. This time next season we will probably be lining up with a brand new partnership and likely with players who have next to zero caps. Why not try someone young and inexperienced at 12 or 13 NOW? So what if McSharry has limited experience? Stick him in there with BOD and give him a go. Same potentially with Luke Marshall.

The same with the 10 jersey. ROG offers absolutely nothing. Paddy Jackson has played very well for most of this season for Ulster, the best Irish province and leading Rabo side. So what if Pienaar controls Ulster's games (which isn't entirely accurate anyway). By that inane thinking Jackson should never be capped for Ireland. Jackson is exactly the sort of player Ireland need in their ranks. Thrown into the deep end for Ulster at the end of last season, he had a pretty poor match in the highest profile match one can play in the northern hemisphere. Just look at how he reacted.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The inclusion of ROG beggars belief at this stage. He has proved himself this season to be a liability for Munster and his cameos for Ireland were nothing short of embarrassing. It is a very undignified ending to a pretty stellar career.

More than anything else it is unbelievable short termism in selection. This time next season we could be sitting one injury from Sexton away to a hugely inexperienced backline. While this thread seems to be descending into a tribal tirade (as usual) from some fans about keeping ROG in the side or that putting young players on the bench does them no good, then the selection of Kilcoyne is deeply puzzling. If the reasons for keeping ROG are to be believed then Kilcoyne has absolutely no place in the squad. Let's set aside that Court has arguably been the best Irish prop this season and that selection between him and Healy should be a genuine conversation (I'd go with Healy of course but it merits debate), few fans have raised an eyebrow at Kilcoyne's likely place on the bench. And why should we? We have a serious problem with young Irish props and so giving Kilcoyne some experience, even only 15/20 minutes from the bench should be applauded. At least if there was some crisis with Healy and Court we know we have someone up to the task at international level.

The same is going to happen with the centres. This time next season we will probably be lining up with a brand new partnership and likely with players who have next to zero caps. Why not try someone young and inexperienced at 12 or 13 NOW? So what if McSharry has limited experience? Stick him in there with BOD and give him a go. Same potentially with Luke Marshall.

The same with the 10 jersey. ROG offers absolutely nothing. Paddy Jackson has played very well for most of this season for Ulster, the best Irish province and leading Rabo side. So what if Pienaar controls Ulster's games (which isn't entirely accurate anyway). By that inane thinking Jackson should never be capped for Ireland. Jackson is exactly the sort of player Ireland need in their ranks. Thrown into the deep end for Ulster at the end of last season, he had a pretty poor match in the highest profile match one can play in the northern hemisphere. Just look at how he reacted.

I agree with a lot of that. Its one of the reasons why I think that taking the captaincy of O'Driscoll was an excellent move by Kidney. We have to start building for the future, and the squad used in the November internationals had a lot of players who were brought into the leadership group with POC and BOD missing. In Ryan, HeasliP, Best and Sexton you have a core of leaders who will be around at the next World Cup.

On Jackson, I can understand people saying that Pienaar makes all the decision for Ulster so he would struggle in the Irish team, but I disagree. If you look at Murray's performances for the last few weeks, he is the one controlling things for Munster, Rog is no longer the boss in that partnership. If Jackson had to come on for Sexton early in the game, he would have plenty of experienced players around him to guide him through it. He is mentally strong enough to meet the challenge head on. I will admit I'd prefer Madigan to be on the bench instead of him, but I would be much more confident in Jackson not doing anything as stupid as Rog did in the Argentina game.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Funny how ROG didn't get any game time and this is an excuse to why he got injured shortly after and has since played poorly

however....

Mick McCarthy or Peter O'Mahony who were also on the bench went on to have excellent campaigns and have continued to improve in to this year

O'Mahony started against Scotland (having had a few cameos off the bench) against France & Italy & England. McCarthy only featured off the bench twice (which would have meant he was available to Connacht the rest of the time).

Its not as if either those two forwards are dictating the play (except maybe in the Lineout) or needing to take place kicks in a match situation - I think Ryan does the calls in the lineout anyway.

Standulstermen wrote:
Donncha about the squad wasn't an issue in the AI's but let's not forget that the last time Deccie had a full deck of locks to pick from, O'Callaghan was in front of Ryan. If donncha remains in the squad ahead of Henderson I feel it flies in the face if his kilcoyne/court selections. He moved Ireland in the right direction in the autumn with youth but his hand was forced through injury to a certain extent. I'm not trying to take anything away from him but we are currently on a winning streak of 1. Let's not make a saint out of a sinner just yet.

I'd imagine they don't want to introduce too many changes all at once. Ryan has got this year to bed in - at least he was used to playing with DOC. He had new hookers to get used to.

The ROG issue just beggars belief at this stage but I don't hold kidney responsible as I get the feeling there is substantial pressure to retain him. I will reserve judgement on where Ireland are going until after the 6N but thereafter we need a new set up

Someone must hate ROG to make him sit on the bench. I bet he would prefer to be at home with his family (remember Humphreys found it very boring sitting on the bench).

BOD is the same - he hates going to matches that he isn't playing in.

valjester wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:As far as I am aware keatleys kicking stats (all together) are higher than O'Garas this season

Keatley's stats are the best in the Rabo, I think.

profitius; That has to happen, Murray especially should still be kicking, he was allowed to kick for the Irish u20s and he was good. If he still kicked it would help relieve pressure on Keatley or Hanrahan at Munster and just allow them to focus on playing their way into the team instead of fans getting on their back about poor kicking, which really is just a small part of outhalf play. Absolutely crazy decision by whoever took him of that duty.

Keatley's stats maybe the best in the Rabo, but they sure are not in the HC. 40% last week.

Does Murray not have enough on his plate? He is 23 and has come a long way very quickly. Let him concentrate on his own game. Hanrahan seems to be able to handle pressure (i.e., that kick he got to beat France in the U20s last year and more recently, a losing bonus point against Scarlets (I think) in the last minute. Hanrahan (according to Penney) is going to be developed as an outhalf (but also playing a bit at 12).

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:As far as I am aware keatleys kicking stats (all together) are higher than O'Garas this season

Keatley's stats are the best in the Rabo, I think.

profitius; That has to happen, Murray especially should still be kicking, he was allowed to kick for the Irish u20s and he was good. If he still kicked it would help relieve pressure on Keatley or Hanrahan at Munster and just allow them to focus on playing their way into the team instead of fans getting on their back about poor kicking, which really is just a small part of outhalf play. Absolutely crazy decision by whoever took him of that duty.

Keatley's stats maybe the best in the Rabo, but they sure are not in the HC. 40% last week.

Does Murray not have enough on his plate? He is 23 and has come a long way very quickly. Let him concentrate on his own game. Hanrahan seems to be able to handle pressure (i.e., that kick he got to beat France in the U20s last year and more recently, a losing bonus point against Scarlets (I think) in the last minute. Hanrahan (according to Penney) is going to be developed as an outhalf (but also playing a bit at 12).

Hanrahan may be able to handle the pressure, but there is no harm letting him ease into playing at 10, like Madigan did at Leinster and Jackson did last year. Letting Murray kick would not increase the workload on him to such a degree that he will have to much pressure. He has done it before at other levels and it didn't affect his game, an extra option would be helpful.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The inclusion of ROG beggars belief at this stage. He has proved himself this season to be a liability for Munster and his cameos for Ireland were nothing short of embarrassing. It is a very undignified ending to a pretty stellar career.

That is just damning with faint praise. Any old opportunity to get the knife in. You'd swear ROG was picking himself the way you are going on.

More than anything else it is unbelievable short termism in selection.

We're talking about 5 games in the next couple of weeks.

This time next season we could be sitting one injury from Sexton away to a hugely inexperienced backline. While this thread seems to be descending into a tribal tirade (as usual) from some fans about keeping ROG in the side or that putting young players on the bench does them no good, then the selection of Kilcoyne is deeply puzzling.

We have another 5 games (Summer & Autumn tour) before worrying about that. Ireland survived for about 4-5 seasons with Paddy Wallace as backup.

If the reasons for keeping ROG are to be believed then Kilcoyne has absolutely no place in the squad. Let's set aside that Court has arguably been the best Irish prop this season and that selection between him and Healy should be a genuine conversation (I'd go with Healy of course but it merits debate), few fans have raised an eyebrow at Kilcoyne's likely place on the bench. And why should we? We have a serious problem with young Irish props and so giving Kilcoyne some experience, even only 15/20 minutes from the bench should be applauded. At least if there was some crisis with Healy and Court we know we have someone up to the task at international level.

Court got his act together when he was released back to Ulster during the AIs. It was probably the kick up the yard he needed. Whats the problem having Kilcoyne in the squad - he will be needed for the summer tour as presumably Healy will be on the Lions and Ireland will have to tour with at least two looseheads.

The same is going to happen with the centres. This time next season we will probably be lining up with a brand new partnership and likely with players who have next to zero caps. Why not try someone young and inexperienced at 12 or 13 NOW? So what if McSharry has limited experience? Stick him in there with BOD and give him a go. Same potentially with Luke Marshall.

There is some backup at 13 (Earls played there all last year & McFadden played there against Wales when Earls was not available). 12 is a problem position and has been for some time. Looks to me as if Luke Marshall is the one being looked at, so I'd imagine he will get some time if he gets himself fit - if not, he will have to wait for the summer tour.

The same with the 10 jersey. ROG offers absolutely nothing. Paddy Jackson has played very well for most of this season for Ulster, the best Irish province and leading Rabo side. So what if Pienaar controls Ulster's games (which isn't entirely accurate anyway). By that inane thinking Jackson should never be capped for Ireland. Jackson is exactly the sort of player Ireland need in their ranks. Thrown into the deep end for Ulster at the end of last season, he had a pretty poor match in the highest profile match one can play in the northern hemisphere. Just look at how he reacted.

Fair play to Jackson for coming back from the HC final. He still is pretty young though and apparently carrying an injury. Then partner him with Connor Murray who is still very young and inexperienced and has only had a couple of starts with Sexton (he got injured in the 6Ns).

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:As far as I am aware keatleys kicking stats (all together) are higher than O'Garas this season

Keatley's stats are the best in the Rabo, I think.

profitius; That has to happen, Murray especially should still be kicking, he was allowed to kick for the Irish u20s and he was good. If he still kicked it would help relieve pressure on Keatley or Hanrahan at Munster and just allow them to focus on playing their way into the team instead of fans getting on their back about poor kicking, which really is just a small part of outhalf play. Absolutely crazy decision by whoever took him of that duty.

Keatley's stats maybe the best in the Rabo, but they sure are not in the HC. 40% last week.

Does Murray not have enough on his plate? He is 23 and has come a long way very quickly. Let him concentrate on his own game. Hanrahan seems to be able to handle pressure (i.e., that kick he got to beat France in the U20s last year and more recently, a losing bonus point against Scarlets (I think) in the last minute. Hanrahan (according to Penney) is going to be developed as an outhalf (but also playing a bit at 12).

Hanrahan may be able to handle the pressure, but there is no harm letting him ease into playing at 10, like Madigan did at Leinster and Jackson did last year. Letting Murray kick would not increase the workload on him to such a degree that he will have to much pressure. He has done it before at other levels and it didn't affect his game, an extra option would be helpful.

If he is happy (and good) to take his own kicks, why would you stop him taking them. He is a bit ROG like in that if he misses one (and he does), he doesn't let it affect him.

Murray is taking on a lot more of a playmaker role, so let him work on that side of his game instead of lumping the kicking onto him. I imagine taking the responsibility of kicking from Keatley wouldn't do anything for his confidence (and what happens when Murray is being rested?).

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:As far as I am aware keatleys kicking stats (all together) are higher than O'Garas this season

Keatley's stats are the best in the Rabo, I think.

profitius; That has to happen, Murray especially should still be kicking, he was allowed to kick for the Irish u20s and he was good. If he still kicked it would help relieve pressure on Keatley or Hanrahan at Munster and just allow them to focus on playing their way into the team instead of fans getting on their back about poor kicking, which really is just a small part of outhalf play. Absolutely crazy decision by whoever took him of that duty.

Keatley's stats maybe the best in the Rabo, but they sure are not in the HC. 40% last week.

Does Murray not have enough on his plate? He is 23 and has come a long way very quickly. Let him concentrate on his own game. Hanrahan seems to be able to handle pressure (i.e., that kick he got to beat France in the U20s last year and more recently, a losing bonus point against Scarlets (I think) in the last minute. Hanrahan (according to Penney) is going to be developed as an outhalf (but also playing a bit at 12).

Hanrahan may be able to handle the pressure, but there is no harm letting him ease into playing at 10, like Madigan did at Leinster and Jackson did last year. Letting Murray kick would not increase the workload on him to such a degree that he will have to much pressure. He has done it before at other levels and it didn't affect his game, an extra option would be helpful.

If he is happy (and good) to take his own kicks, why would you stop him taking them. He is a bit ROG like in that if he misses one (and he does), he doesn't let it affect him.

Murray is taking on a lot more of a playmaker role, so let him work on that side of his game instead of lumping the kicking onto him. I imagine taking the responsibility of kicking from Keatley wouldn't do anything for his confidence (and what happens when Murray is being rested?).

I'm just arguing that Murray should still be a kicker, the more options the better, Hanrahan's kicking has been appalling in the AIL recently, by all accounts, I'm sure he is mentally strong enough to miss a kick and get the next one, I'm just arguing that that doesn't have to be the case, he can be eased in for a few games with Murray taking the kicks. Its not lumping anything on Murray, he is capable of adding one more thing to his game.

There are two main reasons ROG will be on the bench in the 6N.
1. He is the only outhalf who remembers how to play 10 man rugby - Kidney just has to find a pack to make that plan work.
2. ROG (with the blessing of the IRFU) is shooting to become the most capped Test player ever. Hence he gets the odd minute here and there, but more crucially a cap every time.

He doesn't deserve a cap and it is an insult to a lot of the great guys like Gregan and Leonard who played great in their laster years that a shoite player like ROG can pick up cheap ones.

valjester wrote:I'm just arguing that Murray should still be a kicker, the more options the better, Hanrahan's kicking has been appalling in the AIL recently, by all accounts, I'm sure he is mentally strong enough to miss a kick and get the next one, I'm just arguing that that doesn't have to be the case, he can be eased in for a few games with Murray taking the kicks. Its not lumping anything on Murray, he is capable of adding one more thing to his game.

So at this stage, a 23 year old scrumhalf, who has a fair bit on his plate anyway should take over the kicking duties of a 25 year old (Keatley) to take the pressure off him.

Hanrahan can sort the kicking aspect of his game out in AIL/B+I cup. He is only 20 and bearing in mind he plays for 3 different teams, UL Bohs, B+I Cup & Munster (and up to last June U-20s), he must hard going having so many different coaches tactics.

The Great Aukster wrote:There are two main reasons ROG will be on the bench in the 6N.
1. He is the only outhalf who remembers how to play 10 man rugby - Kidney just has to find a pack to make that plan work.
2. ROG (with the blessing of the IRFU) is shooting to become the most capped Test player ever. Hence he gets the odd minute here and there, but more crucially a cap every time.

1. Total load of cobblers.
2. Why would the IRFU want him to become the most capped player? Its only going to cost them money as they could get Keatley, Madigan & Jackson - all on provincial contracts for buttons.

Thomond wrote:He doesn't deserve a cap and it is an insult to a lot of the great guys like Gregan and Leonard who played great in their laster years that a shoite player like ROG can pick up cheap ones.

What a bitter (and weird) way of thinking. Did ROG steal your sweets when he was a kid or something?

Who would actually care how many caps any of them got? (By the way Gregan was fairly young when he retired and ROG has a long way to go to catch him - he'd have to play internationally for about another 2 seasons). BOD is hot on his heals anyway and is very likely to have more caps than him.

Lots of people will overtake Leonard.

Rog doesn't deserve to play international rugby, he isn't good enough. He shouldn't get cheap caps just becuae he is a "lidgind" and because the medial love him.



I would be very disappointed if he got gametime in the 6 Nations.

Does anyone remember that interview after the Australia game, RWC 2011, when a emotional but proud ROG announced his impending retirement from international rugby?

Oh what could have been...

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:I'm just arguing that Murray should still be a kicker, the more options the better, Hanrahan's kicking has been appalling in the AIL recently, by all accounts, I'm sure he is mentally strong enough to miss a kick and get the next one, I'm just arguing that that doesn't have to be the case, he can be eased in for a few games with Murray taking the kicks. Its not lumping anything on Murray, he is capable of adding one more thing to his game.

So at this stage, a 23 year old scrumhalf, who has a fair bit on his plate anyway should take over the kicking duties of a 25 year old (Keatley) to take the pressure off him.

Hanrahan can sort the kicking aspect of his game out in AIL/B+I cup. He is only 20 and bearing in mind he plays for 3 different teams, UL Bohs, B+I Cup & Munster (and up to last June U-20s), he must hard going having so many different coaches tactics.

I fail to see how the bolded would have any impact on his kicking.

And I also don't see what Murray, or Keatley's, ages have to do with the argument on relieving pressure on the less experienced player. Murray is an Irish international, who has had two season as first choice in the Hec and in the Irish squad. Keatley is under intense pressure having to replace a Munster legend in Rog, who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

I actually will be very interested to see who Kidney goes with in the 6 nations. I think Kilcoyne being in the side is good for his development for the same reasons I think Madigan, Keatley or Jackson should be there too. D'Arcy in the centre I have no problem with because we don't really have a young alternative play regularly at 12 except Marshall and he is injured. If Kidney picks these players then whether it was wanting to save his job or not then fair play to him. Also regarding my comments earlier I can't stop watching Ireland even if I wanted too because I am a fan and since I have managed to watch them up to now in my life I am sure i will continue in the future lol I was just trying to illustrate how dissapointed I would be if Kidney left and nothing changed tactics or playing wise not players wise.

Thomond wrote:Rog doesn't deserve to play international rugby, he isn't good enough. He shouldn't get cheap caps just becuae he is a "lidgind" and because the medial love him.

I would be very disappointed if he got gametime in the 6 Nations.

So, you just want him to suffer on the bench. I really don't get this pathetic begrudgery! Why do you hate ROG so much?

theslosty wrote:Does anyone remember that interview after the Australia game, RWC 2011, when a emotional but proud ROG announced his impending retirement from international rugby?

Oh what could have been...

and you saw the IRFU saying quickly enough (McNaughton) that he couldn't because he had a contract.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:I'm just arguing that Murray should still be a kicker, the more options the better, Hanrahan's kicking has been appalling in the AIL recently, by all accounts, I'm sure he is mentally strong enough to miss a kick and get the next one, I'm just arguing that that doesn't have to be the case, he can be eased in for a few games with Murray taking the kicks. Its not lumping anything on Murray, he is capable of adding one more thing to his game.

So at this stage, a 23 year old scrumhalf, who has a fair bit on his plate anyway should take over the kicking duties of a 25 year old (Keatley) to take the pressure off him.

Hanrahan can sort the kicking aspect of his game out in AIL/B+I cup. He is only 20 and bearing in mind he plays for 3 different teams, UL Bohs, B+I Cup & Munster (and up to last June U-20s), he must hard going having so many different coaches tactics.

He won't develope a huge amount playing amateur/semi-pro rugby. He has shown he is past that looking at his performances in the JWC. He should be starting Rabo games by now.

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:Rog doesn't deserve to play international rugby, he isn't good enough. He shouldn't get cheap caps just becuae he is a "lidgind" and because the medial love him.

I would be very disappointed if he got gametime in the 6 Nations.

So, you just want him to suffer on the bench. I really don't get this pathetic begrudgery! Why do you hate ROG so much?

I don't want him to suffer on the bench, he should be at home. I don't hate ROG, he is and always was overrated. Without a world class pack, ROG is a better version of Dan Parks (ROG did pretty well at running a backline for about 3-4 years), he has a lot of kinks to his game, credit to Eddie and Deccie getting the best out of him, because he had his limits, he can't tackle, never was a running threat really, there's a reason they don't rate him in the southern hemisphere because he couldn't do a lot of things. I wonder how good Wally could have been without having to babysit ROG, the guy could have been even better.



He was great at what he did and we built around his strengths. The game has moved on and he, Munster and Ireland are holding onto a faded star who is idolised by the Irish media, he has no place in the Irish Squad.

Sin é wrote:Total load of cobblers.

Sorry, I forgot you are the authority on "cobblers".

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:I'm just arguing that Murray should still be a kicker, the more options the better, Hanrahan's kicking has been appalling in the AIL recently, by all accounts, I'm sure he is mentally strong enough to miss a kick and get the next one, I'm just arguing that that doesn't have to be the case, he can be eased in for a few games with Murray taking the kicks. Its not lumping anything on Murray, he is capable of adding one more thing to his game.

So at this stage, a 23 year old scrumhalf, who has a fair bit on his plate anyway should take over the kicking duties of a 25 year old (Keatley) to take the pressure off him.

Hanrahan can sort the kicking aspect of his game out in AIL/B+I cup. He is only 20 and bearing in mind he plays for 3 different teams, UL Bohs, B+I Cup & Munster (and up to last June U-20s), he must hard going having so many different coaches tactics.

I fail to see how the bolded would have any impact on his kicking.

And I also don't see what Murray, or Keatley's, ages have to do with the argument on relieving pressure on the less experienced player. Murray is an Irish international, who has had two season as first choice in the Hec and in the Irish squad. Keatley is under intense pressure having to replace a Munster legend in Rog, who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

He said he sometimes gets mixed up calling the plays between the different teams. Just more demands on his concentration.

Kicking is just as important as passing in a game - and if you think O'Gara has won all he has won (including the best player of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup) with being able to kick, you haven't a clue.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:
I fail to see how the bolded would have any impact on his kicking.

And I also don't see what Murray, or Keatley's, ages have to do with the argument on relieving pressure on the less experienced player. Murray is an Irish international, who has had two season as first choice in the Hec and in the Irish squad. Keatley is under intense pressure having to replace a Munster legend in Rog, who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

He said he sometimes gets mixed up calling the plays between the different teams. Just more demands on his concentration.

Kicking is just as important as passing in a game - and if you think O'Gara has won all he has won (including the best player of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup) with being able to kick, you haven't a clue.

Sin; you constantly refuse to read what people have written, and are insistent on engaging in arguments about what people have not said. You insist on missing the point that other people are making, and love to feel that people are directing insults towards players. None of this is the case, and you constantly ruin any debate by insisting on making strawmen arguments.

Thomond wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:Rog doesn't deserve to play international rugby, he isn't good enough. He shouldn't get cheap caps just becuae he is a "lidgind" and because the medial love him.

I would be very disappointed if he got gametime in the 6 Nations.

So, you just want him to suffer on the bench. I really don't get this pathetic begrudgery! Why do you hate ROG so much?

I don't want him to suffer on the bench, he should be at home. I don't hate ROG, he is and always was overrated. Without a world class pack, ROG is a better version of Dan Parks (ROG did pretty well at running a backline for about 3-4 years), he has a lot of kinks to his game, credit to Eddie and Deccie getting the best out of him, because he had his limits, he can't tackle, never was a running threat really, there's a reason they don't rate him in the southern hemisphere because he couldn't do a lot of things. I wonder how good Wally could have been without having to babysit ROG, the guy could have been even better.

He was great at what he did and we built around his strengths. The game has moved on and he, Munster and Ireland are holding onto a faded star who is idolised by the Irish media, he has no place in the Irish Squad.

You think they rate Sexton in the SH then? Or Tommy Bowe - even BOD? How nieve you are!

One thing the pack always appreciated about ROG (Wally included) - he kept them going forward. Perhaps if Stringer was a better defender or had a break, ROG might not have had a backrower in his face as much. Why don't you have a go at Strings for being one dimensional and not presenting a breaking threat.

Your outhalf at the bottom of a ruck can't control or manage the game. Wally did what he was good at and ROG did what he was good at. Funnily enough, Sexton doesn't break that much when playing international - and Murray seems to be controlling the game a bit more as scrumhalf.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:
I fail to see how the bolded would have any impact on his kicking.

And I also don't see what Murray, or Keatley's, ages have to do with the argument on relieving pressure on the less experienced player. Murray is an Irish international, who has had two season as first choice in the Hec and in the Irish squad. Keatley is under intense pressure having to replace a Munster legend in Rog, who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

He said he sometimes gets mixed up calling the plays between the different teams. Just more demands on his concentration.

Kicking is just as important as passing in a game - and if you think O'Gara has won all he has won (including the best player of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup) with being able to kick, you haven't a clue.

Sin; you constantly refuse to read what people have written, and are insistent on engaging in arguments about what people have not said. You insist on missing the point that other people are making, and love to feel that people are directing insults towards players. None of this is the case, and you constantly ruin any debate by insisting on making strawmen arguments.

I fail to grasp what what I haven't addressed. Is it not correct to say that you failed to see how playing for a couple of teams/coaches would have an impact on Hanrahan (and his concentration). I'm repeating what he said in interview that he sometimes gets mixed up with the different calls between the different teams which I interpret as needing to concentrate hard.

who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

Dismissing O'Gara as just being able to kick well is laughable, but very insulting.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:
I fail to see how the bolded would have any impact on his kicking.

And I also don't see what Murray, or Keatley's, ages have to do with the argument on relieving pressure on the less experienced player. Murray is an Irish international, who has had two season as first choice in the Hec and in the Irish squad. Keatley is under intense pressure having to replace a Munster legend in Rog, who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

He said he sometimes gets mixed up calling the plays between the different teams. Just more demands on his concentration.

Kicking is just as important as passing in a game - and if you think O'Gara has won all he has won (including the best player of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup) with being able to kick, you haven't a clue.

Sin; you constantly refuse to read what people have written, and are insistent on engaging in arguments about what people have not said. You insist on missing the point that other people are making, and love to feel that people are directing insults towards players. None of this is the case, and you constantly ruin any debate by insisting on making strawmen arguments.

I fail to grasp what what I haven't addressed. Is it not correct to say that you failed to see how playing for a couple of teams/coaches would have an impact on Hanrahan (and his concentration). I'm repeating what he said in interview that he sometimes gets mixed up with the different calls between the different teams which I interpret as needing to concentrate hard.

who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

Dismissing O'Gara as just being able to kick well is laughable, but very insulting.

Well done on proving my point. I said I fail to see how JJ playing for a number of teams has any impact on his KICKING. I said that it might help if when introduced to the Munster team Murray kicks for the first while so that he can concentrate solely on playing well.

I said that ROG has been playing poorly but that it is glossed over by people because he is still kicking well. I never said he is only able to kick, I just said he is not doing the other parts of his game as well as he previously could.

Val, he is taking the pish out of you. Why do you engage him?

O Gara has a cultured boot. He lost it in his garage a few years ago and it has developed its own species of fungus.

valjester wrote:
Well done on proving my point. I said I fail to see how JJ playing for a number of teams has any impact on his KICKING. I said that it might help if when introduced to the Munster team Murray kicks for the first while so that he can concentrate solely on playing well.

I said that ROG has been playing poorly but that it is glossed over by people because he is still kicking well. I never said he is only able to kick, I just said he is not doing the other parts of his game as well as he previously could.

I explained to you that it is more demanding for him to play for 3 different coaches, 3 different teams, 3 different half back partners, with 3 different systems - particularly between AIL & Munster. I don't know why you find this concept difficult to understand as you are saying that to reduce the workload when playing for Munster so that he can concentrate on his game is take away the kicking responsibility and hand it over to a guy who hasn't kicked much in recent times and would be rarely playing in the games that Hanrahan will be playing in for the start of his career.

This is what you said about ROG.

Murray is an Irish international, who has had two season as first choice in the Hec and in the Irish squad. Keatley is under intense pressure having to replace a Munster legend in Rog, who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

edit: This is now what you claim you said:

I said that ROG has been playing poorly but that it is glossed over by people because he is still kicking well. I never said he is only able to kick, I just said he is not doing the other parts of his game as well as he previously could.

red_stag wrote:Val, he is taking the pish out of you. Why do you engage him?

In what way? He won't engage me if he doesn't make statements that he can't back up.

ROG will be remembered as the Flyhalf that won a Grand Slam with his kick, just as Wilkinson is remembered for his kick in 2003. He won't be remembered for anything other than his kicking because that was the exceptional part of his game.

Apparently ROG is supposed to be a good reader of the game, so you have to wonder why he can't see that rugby has moved on from kicking 80% of the ball he gets to the opposition. Maybe he can't accept his skills have waned and the killer kicks are increasingly rare? OTOH maybe Kidney is just using him as a patsy to boost Sexton's confidence, until some of the young contenders get an easy American tour under their belt?

Sin é wrote:

I explained to you that it is more demanding for him to play for 3 different coaches, 3 different teams, 3 different half back partners, with 3 different systems - particularly between AIL & Munster. I don't know why you find this concept difficult to understand as you are saying that to reduce the workload when playing for Munster so that he can concentrate on his game is take away the kicking responsibility and hand it over to a guy who hasn't kicked much in recent times and would be rarely playing in the games that Hanrahan will be playing in for the start of his career.

This is what you said about ROG.

Murray is an Irish international, who has had two season as first choice in the Hec and in the Irish squad. Keatley is under intense pressure having to replace a Munster legend in Rog, who's kicking manages to convince some people that the rest of his game isn't terrible.

edit: This is now what you claim you said:

I said that ROG has been playing poorly but that it is glossed over by people because he is still kicking well. I never said he is only able to kick, I just said he is not doing the other parts of his game as well as he previously could.

Yes, nothing contradicts them two statements. The first you have quoted is clearly in the present tense talking about this season.
On JJ and kicking, it was purely hypothetical, I was just bemoaning the fact that in the Irish game the outhalf as to be the kicker. I just wish Murray had never given up on the skill.

red_stag wrote:Val, he is taking the pish out of you. Why do you engage him?

I'm honestly not sure, I think it may be out of pure boredom, or annoyance that anyone actually thinks in the manner he does.

The Great Aukster wrote:ROG will be remembered as the Flyhalf that won a Grand Slam with his kick, just as Wilkinson is remembered for his kick in 2003. He won't be remembered for anything other than his kicking because that was the exceptional part of his game.

Apparently ROG is supposed to be a good reader of the game, so you have to wonder why he can't see that rugby has moved on from kicking 80% of the ball he gets to the opposition. Maybe he can't accept his skills have waned and the killer kicks are increasingly rare? OTOH maybe Kidney is just using him as a patsy to boost Sexton's confidence, until some of the young contenders get an easy American tour under their belt?

I'd say he will be more remembered for the Heineken Cup. Being selected the Best Player in the first 15 years of the competition is some achievement bearing in mind some of the great players who have played in it and who did the selecting.

valjester wrote:

red_stag wrote:Val, he is taking the pish out of you. Why do you engage him?

I'm honestly not sure, I think it may be out of pure boredom, or annoyance that anyone actually thinks in the manner he does.

I find it equally amazing that so many people seem to get so much enjoyment out of taking silly potshots at O'Gara. Some of the stuff is just hilarious. Imagine getting annoyed by the fact that he might get more caps than George Gregan!

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

red_stag wrote:Val, he is taking the pish out of you. Why do you engage him?

I'm honestly not sure, I think it may be out of pure boredom, or annoyance that anyone actually thinks in the manner he does.

I find it equally amazing that so many people seem to get so much enjoyment out of taking silly potshots at O'Gara. Some of the stuff is just hilarious. Imagine getting annoyed by the fact that he might get more caps than George Gregan!

Sin don't act all innocent here. You take pot shots at Sexton the whole time.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

red_stag wrote:Val, he is taking the pish out of you. Why do you engage him?

I'm honestly not sure, I think it may be out of pure boredom, or annoyance that anyone actually thinks in the manner he does.

I find it equally amazing that so many people seem to get so much enjoyment out of taking silly potshots at O'Gara. Some of the stuff is just hilarious. Imagine getting annoyed by the fact that he might get more caps than George Gregan!

I haven't taken a single dig at Rog.