Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I agree with stand, our 13's are pretty poor at the moment.

Any other young lads on the horizon???

O'malley? Doubt it!
Barnes? Nope.
Griffin? Maybe.

Other left field future options? Bowe? Fitz? Payne? Henshaw?

I think they're viewing Henshaw as a long term 13.

its hard to call a team based purely on form in the HEC/Rabo due to injuries

Healy (has been excellent as have Court and Kilcoyne)
Best (needs to work on his throwing though. No real standouts)
Ross (only one that can scrum and is usually fit)
McCarthy
Ryan (difficult call between him and O'Callaghan)
O'Mahoney (slightly edges O'Brien for me; injury a factor)
Henry (stellar. no one comes close)
Heaslip (captain; Wilson and Coughlan have been ok when used)
Murray (by some distance although Marmion has done well)
Sexton (same as above. no real standout challenger)
Zebo
D'arcy/McSharry/Marshall (one injured, two uncapped, one on the wane but decent; D'arcy to be retained. Paddy Wallace not in contention)
Cave (he hasnt been great but BOD hasnt played and Earls is a poor centre; lack of options)
Trimble
Henshaw (On HEC form Henshaw but Kearney is back and looking in decent shape to start)

thats a team thinking purely of provincial form but it is tough to isolate that. For instance Cave wont make the squad, nor will Henshaw. I would imagine Henry will lose out to O'Brien and i would be surprised if Trimble is picked.

Standulstermen wrote:its hard to call a team based purely on form in the HEC/Rabo due to injuries

Healy (has been excellent as have Court and Kilcoyne)
Best (needs to work on his throwing though. No real standouts)
Ross (only one that can scrum and is usually fit)
McCarthy
Ryan (difficult call between him and O'Callaghan)
O'Mahoney (slightly edges O'Brien for me; injury a factor)
Henry (stellar. no one comes close)
Heaslip (captain; Wilson and Coughlan have been ok when used)
Murray (by some distance although Marmion has done well)
Sexton (same as above. no real standout challenger)
Zebo
D'arcy/McSharry/Marshall (one injured, two uncapped, one on the wane but decent; D'arcy to be retained. Paddy Wallace not in contention)
Cave (he hasnt been great but BOD hasnt played and Earls is a poor centre; lack of options)
Trimble
Henshaw (On HEC form Henshaw but Kearney is back and looking in decent shape to start)

thats a team thinking purely of provincial form but it is tough to isolate that. For instance Cave wont make the squad, nor will Henshaw. I would imagine Henry will lose out to O'Brien and i would be surprised if Trimble is picked.

have you not seen SOB since his return???

I wasnt that impressed with him yesterday Pete i have to say. Looked slightly underpowered compared to what i expect. Obviously he didnt play against Scarlets and he was good in the 2nd clermont game. he wasnt great agaisnt us at Ravenhill either.

So thats my viewing. 3 games. good in 1, average in 2. I think O'Mahoney has been good.

As i mentioned above i dont expect that to be the team and i do expect O'Brien to feature as he is class. I was trying to base it as closely as possible on league and cup form. There are of course mitigating circumstances with everything. I believe Court has probably been the best Irish LH this season but Healy is on a different level in the loose when he gets going so he gets the nod etc.

Chris Henry should be the first name on the team sheet... best Irish player in any position this season .

I would agree Rodders. I think I would be more disappointed with Trimble and Henry not making the Ireland team than I would with Best for instance. Would hope we involve Henderson too

I am actually really looking forward to the Murray Sexton partnership. Murray was absolutely bossing it today. He has been really excellent since the Racing match, it seems to have the kick up the a**e he needed.

Standulstermen wrote:I would agree Rodders. I think I would be more disappointed with Trimble and Henry not making the Ireland team than I would with Best for instance. Would hope we involve Henderson too

I think that Trimble has to start, our backs are just not big enough without him. Henry has been immense and him in the side would free SOB up to do more carrying.

I think Kidney will pick Henry, the pack pretty much picks itself imo, its the subs that are interesting. I'd like to see Henderson and POM covering the locks and backrows but I think Hendo will miss out to DOC.

rodders wrote:Chris Henry should be the first name on the team sheet... best Irish player in any position this season .

Definitely Healy or Ryan for me

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

rodders wrote:Chris Henry should be the first name on the team sheet... best Irish player in any position this season .

Definitely Healy or Ryan for me

The pack picks itself, unless Kidney decides to go stupid again. I would like to see the same team that beat Argentina given another go but SOB deserves to go back in at 6.

I'm not going to try and second guess what Kidney will do in the backs but I bet it will be the wrong decision.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

rodders wrote:Chris Henry should be the first name on the team sheet... best Irish player in any position this season .

Definitely Healy or Ryan for me

Fair shouts Pete. Healy has been a beast at times for sure but Ryan hasn't quite hit the incredible form he was in last year.

Henry has been outstanding every week and just gets better and better. He's gone from a being decent provincial squad player to arguably the best openside in the northern hemisphere in the space of 3 seasons. Great leader too.

He's as important to Ulster as a player and talisman as Ferris, Muller, Afoa, Pienaar and Best now in my opinion.

Not sure why Ryan is getting so many plaudits. Yes he has been fairly consistent but lets not forget he is a second row and his lineout sucess hasnt exactly been particularly impressive. He has slotted in very nicely into the team though and deserves his place no question. Healy has been Irelands best player for me. Excellent in the loose, excellent in the scrum. Cant fault him really. Mike McCarthy, Henry and Gilroy have also been excellent when called upon.

Ryan is an example of a Guy who steps it up in the green shirt. Not too many can say that at the minute I think

Ryan was a colossus down in NZ, his performance in the second test was up there with any Irish player in the pro era for me. Really fronted up for us.

Agree that over the last 6-7 games it has been Healy and Ryan leading the charge up front.

Standulstermen wrote:Ryan is an example of a Guy who steps it up in the green shirt. Not too many can say that at the minute I think

Excellent point. A lot of guys fall away in Green jerseys where they excelled in Blue, White or Red ones (or Green Connacht jerseys although this is much less frequent)

Ryan is a guy who really gives it his all, up there with Healy and Best in that regard I think.

Has the under 20s squad been announced?

im going for:
15 Kearney 14 Zebo 13 Drico 12 Darcy 11 Gilroy 10 Sexton 9 Murray 8 Heaslip 7 Henry 6 SOB 5 Ryan 4 Mc Carthy 3 Ross 2 Best 1 Healy 16 Kilcoyne 17 Strauss 18 Bent 19 O Callaghan 20 O Mahony 21 Madigan 22 Earls 23 Fitzgerald. Very leftfield i know with regards Madigan at scrum half but it saves me choosing between fitzy and keith earls on a freezing cold monday. We have serious resources out wide especially with Trimble,Mc Fadden and Cave not getting a look in. Also decent front row, Kilcoyne is going to be a class act

I think Madigan as proposed on another thread would make a decent hybrid 9/10. He was extremely sharp in his admittedly brief cameo at scrum half on saturday. Murray has had a good year and is playing well. Reddan has not been great and is getting on.

If we are being conservative/prudent ROG for Fitzgerald. Although i would prefer Jackson/Keatley or Madigan. ROG is still the best goal kicker of the 4 understudies

rodders wrote:Ryan was a colossus down in NZ, his performance in the second test was up there with any Irish player in the pro era for me. Really fronted up for us.

How dare you Rodders. Hyperbole is my user name for God's sake and here you are stealing my thunder. Shame on you.

Ryan has played pretty well in a very poor 18 months for Irish rugby. At the same time he provincial form for Munster this season has been patchy at best, albeit at times out of position. There is a lot of revisionism about the NZ tour and Ryan certainly was not our best player by any stretch. Sean O'Brien for me was the best player by some distance. In the first two tests he utterly outplayed McCaw which is not something many players can say.

Anyway, Ryan should keep his place but the main problem is lack of competition in the locks. If POC was fit I would be tempted to play him with McCarthy and drop Ryan to the bench.

I would too if Im honest.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

rodders wrote:Ryan was a colossus down in NZ, his performance in the second test was up there with any Irish player in the pro era for me. Really fronted up for us.

How dare you Rodders. Hyperbole is my user name for God's sake and here you are stealing my thunder. Shame on you.

I'd go for

Healy-best-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
Sob-heaslip-Henry
Murray-sexton
Darcy-bod
Zebo-Kearney-gilroy

Strauss-kilcoyne-bent-Henderson-pom-redden-madigan-mcfadden

I'd go for in the wolfies

Kilcoyne-Strauss-bent
Stevenson-Henderson
Sob-Wilson-o'donnell
Redden-madigan
Mcsharry-bod
Fitz-Kearney-o'halloran

Cronin-court-Fitzpatrick-doc-pom-Marshall-Jackson-henshaw

Strauss is out of the 6nations with an ankle injury. Just spotted it on twitter there.

No Trimble! .... right I'm joining the fleg protest!.... ....

hahahahahahaha. love it rodders.

im wearing a union jack onesy today in work in solidarity for the flag protesters

trimble lack of versatility means he misses out on a bench spot. its a vicious call but we have serious resources behind the scrum.

another school of thought would be you need one big winger if they are going with cuthbert and north (who is out of form). id worry if they go with that kid walker from the ospreys. he is class

That was a joke btw... .... bad news on Strauss Mick.

Kidney calls up another 7 players for the training squad.

"And Ireland coach Decan Kidney has added seven players to the Six Nations extended training squad following the Heineken Cup games at the weekend.

Five Munster players, James Coughlan, Tommy O'Donnell, Mike Sherry, Damien Varley and Ian Keatley, will join Leinster pair Rhys Ruddock and Kevin McLaughlin at squad training at Carton House ahead of the opening game of the RBS 6 Nations against Wales on 2 February and the Wolfhounds’ clash against the Saxons this Friday.2

So we can expect a shoot out for Keats and Madser in the Wolfies? Whoever plays the best gets to hold the tackle bags as ROG swans onto the bench for Cardiff...

Strauss out is a loss but Cronin has looked decent this year so I'd expect him to be on the bench ahead of Sherry. Varley doesn't deserve to be near that team with his performances this year. Herring would be a decent call up in truth!

And probably looking at 6. Ruddock/McLaughlin, 7. O'Donnell, 8. Coughlan for the Wolfies? With the loser in the 6 shirt on the bench?

No Roger Wilson?

Rodders is he not injured after the weekend? Maybe he was held back by the Ulster medical staff?

Wilson was ruled out with a hamstring injury

Varley is an awful call up to that team. Cant argue apart from that.

I'd like to see the following Wolfhound team.

01 Dave Kilcoyne
02 Mike Sherry
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Devin Toner
05 Lewis Stevenson
06 Kevin McLaughlin
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Sean O'Brien
09 Paul Marshall
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Luke Fitzgerald
12 Dave McSharry
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

16 Damien Varley
17 Tom Court
18 Michael Bent
19 Iain Henderson
20 Rhys Ruddock
21 Isaac Boss
22 Ian Madigan
23 Darren Cave

Pretty shocked that Marmion wasn't called up. You would think he was a cert to start for the wolfhounds.

Yea I am too. Its a tough one for Marmion. Reddan's a good scrumhalf but Boss has been getting starts in the Heineken Cup. Murray is on form at the minute and Paul Marshall is playing a lot in a winning team too.

PS - Peter Stringer gone to Bath.

BOD in the wolfies??? You WUM stag!

I hearby forward the motion that the Munster flag only flies at Landsdowne on ROG, Quinnies and the Bulls Birthdays!

red_stag wrote:Yea I am too. Its a tough one for Marmion. Reddan's a good scrumhalf but Boss has been getting starts in the Heineken Cup. Murray is on form at the minute and Paul Marshall is playing a lot in a winning team too.

PS - Peter Stringer gone to Bath.

Has he??? For how long?

BOD needs game time after a long period of injury. He can still go on to start for senior team too.

Regarding Stringer its a short term deal (3 months I believe). Similar to when he played for Saracens and Newcastle last year.

Claassens is out for 4-6 weeks with a broken thumb so I'd expect it to be a 2 month deal...

Read somewhere that Kearney, Fitzgerald, BOD and SOB were all in line to start for the Wolfhounds.

Think they'd be of more use playing for Leinster v Treviso myself, but there you go...

Mickado wrote:Read somewhere that Kearney, Fitzgerald, BOD and SOB were all in line to start for the Wolfhounds.

Think they'd be of more use playing for Leinster v Treviso myself, but there you go...

I read the same thing.

Guys, there are relatively strong rumors saying that all of

Kearney-BOD-Fitzgerald-O'Brien will start the Wolfhounds game to facilitate game time.

O'Brien will be in at 6 or 7 challenging against Henry or POM more than likely POM.

Totally agree on Marmion, he is the second best scrumhalf in the country at the moment IMO. Reddan has looked pretty poor all season.

Very worrying is how none of our options at 13 are playing well at the moment, wish there was a bites finger nails smiley

Mickado wrote:Read somewhere that Kearney, Fitzgerald, BOD and SOB were all in line to start for the Wolfhounds.

Think they'd be of more use playing for Leinster v Treviso myself, but there you go...

I agree, the Wolfhounds should be used to give young players international experience. Thats what its for afterall. There isn't many of these games so we need to make the most of it.

SOB doesn't need gametime. He's been in fantastic form, no point in risking him.

Ps: great news for Stringer

Pps: That sucks for Strauss and Varley is shambolic!

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Mickado wrote:Read somewhere that Kearney, Fitzgerald, BOD and SOB were all in line to start for the Wolfhounds.

Think they'd be of more use playing for Leinster v Treviso myself, but there you go...

I agree, the Wolfhounds should be used to give young players international experience. Thats what its for afterall. There isn't many of these games so we need to make the most of it.

SOB doesn't need gametime. He's been in fantastic form, no point in risking him.

I think that if there's no point being so cut and dry about it. The Wolfhounds can be used in many ways.

By and large yes we should getting young guys international experience but theres no definite rule.

Why is it better for Fitzgerald and O'Driscoll to face a second string Treviso team than playing England Saxons. I know which game will have higher quality.

It lets us gauge guys who are out of the scene a while and see where they are at. No point them doing what Joe Schmidt tells them in a Rabo game. Maybe we have new moves in November that they arent familiar with.

I think its very naiive to dismiss the role of the Wolfhounds.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Mickado wrote:Read somewhere that Kearney, Fitzgerald, BOD and SOB were all in line to start for the Wolfhounds.

Think they'd be of more use playing for Leinster v Treviso myself, but there you go...

I agree, the Wolfhounds should be used to give young players international experience. Thats what its for afterall. There isn't many of these games so we need to make the most of it.

SOB doesn't need gametime. He's been in fantastic form, no point in risking him.

I think that if there's no point being so cut and dry about it. The Wolfhounds can be used in many ways.

By and large yes we should getting young guys international experience but theres no definite rule.

Why is it better for Fitzgerald and O'Driscoll to face a second string Treviso team than playing England Saxons. I know which game will have higher quality.

It lets us gauge guys who are out of the scene a while and see where they are at. No point them doing what Joe Schmidt tells them in a Rabo game. Maybe we have new moves in November that they arent familiar with.

I think its very naiive to dismiss the role of the Wolfhounds.

I agree with this.
Sure, there are rabo points on offer against Treviso but they should be in Irish mode now and while I'd disagree that we'll show any of our moves for the 6N against the Saxons I do think getting in and playing with guys who you aren't familiar with is important and gets their head in the right place

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Mickado wrote:Read somewhere that Kearney, Fitzgerald, BOD and SOB were all in line to start for the Wolfhounds.

Think they'd be of more use playing for Leinster v Treviso myself, but there you go...

I agree, the Wolfhounds should be used to give young players international experience. Thats what its for afterall. There isn't many of these games so we need to make the most of it.

SOB doesn't need gametime. He's been in fantastic form, no point in risking him.

I think that if there's no point being so cut and dry about it. The Wolfhounds can be used in many ways.

By and large yes we should getting young guys international experience but theres no definite rule.

Why is it better for Fitzgerald and O'Driscoll to face a second string Treviso team than playing England Saxons. I know which game will have higher quality.

It lets us gauge guys who are out of the scene a while and see where they are at. No point them doing what Joe Schmidt tells them in a Rabo game. Maybe we have new moves in November that they arent familiar with.

I think its very naiive to dismiss the role of the Wolfhounds.

Hmm the quality of the wolfhounds saxon game last year was simply awful from what I can remember of the game. If Treviso had their full team out Id say that would be a tougher game for the boys considering the form Treviso have been in. Fresh off a win against the Ospreys in the HC.

But Treviso are greatly unlikely to have their full team out. They have lots of Italian internationals who will be absent from the team due to training - same as Leinster.

They have 18 players making up to 30 man Italy 6 Nations squad.

The 4 players in question are only being played to get them up to match sharpness (that much has been said by management), so combinations / patterns etc. are not as important. I think they would be of more use to Leinster than they would be to Ireland A.

This isn't me saying I'd prefer players to not play for Ireland, and just stick with Leinster, I just think that given all 4 players are with the same club anyway they would be better off with that club than a scratch team.

Mick - yes the primary intention is to get them to match sharpness according to management but there are additional benefits.

I don't see any benefit of having them playing against a second string Italy team and romping to a 40 point win.

I just dont see the reason for not playing them.