Ireland's 6N training squad announcement (this wednesday)

First topic message reminder :

This Wednesday see's Declan Kidney announce possibly his final training squad for a competition as Ireland Head Coach. Indeed within the next 5 months or so Kidney's contract will expire and he may very well find himself looking for another job. Is this reason to throw caution to the wind? Many of us certainly hope so although some young and/or exciting players are now injured it looks like it will have less of a bang than it could have had if it had been announced 2 weeks ago.

Injuries rule out O'Connell which is a huge loss, as well as Marshall and Bowe who would have been hoping to be involved. Ferris is another who is out for what would appear most of the tournament if not the whole thing.

This time last year Kidney announced a 30 man training squad and a 23 man squad for the Wolfhounds game.

Ireland Training Squad (39):

Ireland Squad (club/province/international caps):
Michael Bent (Unattached/Leinster/2)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/62)
Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster/15)
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/3)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster/29)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/71)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster/34)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster/23)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster/2)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/1)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/35)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/52) Captain
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster/2)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/4)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/41)
David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/2)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster/)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/14)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/6)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster/16)
Dave McSharry (Galwegians/Connacht/)*
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster/22)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/120)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/9)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/47)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/24)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/23)
Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/34)
Lewis Stevenson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster/)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster/2)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster/49)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/3)

valjester wrote:
edit: This is now what you claim you said:

I said that ROG has been playing poorly but that it is glossed over by people because he is still kicking well. I never said he is only able to kick, I just said he is not doing the other parts of his game as well as he previously could.

Yes, nothing contradicts them two statements. The first you have quoted is clearly in the present tense talking about this season.
On JJ and kicking, it was purely hypothetical, I was just bemoaning the fact that in the Irish game the outhalf as to be the kicker. I just wish Murray had never given up on the skill.[/quote]

Your first statement was made in isolation of the other one which is what you pulled me on.

Maybe Murray still practices his kicking - I just can't see Sexton wanting him to take the kicks at the moment though.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

red_stag wrote:Val, he is taking the pish out of you. Why do you engage him?

I'm honestly not sure, I think it may be out of pure boredom, or annoyance that anyone actually thinks in the manner he does.

I find it equally amazing that so many people seem to get so much enjoyment out of taking silly potshots at O'Gara. Some of the stuff is just hilarious. Imagine getting annoyed by the fact that he might get more caps than George Gregan!

Sin don't act all innocent here. You take pot shots at Sexton the whole time.

I haven't for a while to be fair. I've stated on numerous occasions why I don't like him though when asked.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:
edit: This is now what you claim you said:

I said that ROG has been playing poorly but that it is glossed over by people because he is still kicking well. I never said he is only able to kick, I just said he is not doing the other parts of his game as well as he previously could.

Yes, nothing contradicts them two statements. The first you have quoted is clearly in the present tense talking about this season.
On JJ and kicking, it was purely hypothetical, I was just bemoaning the fact that in the Irish game the outhalf as to be the kicker. I just wish Murray had never given up on the skill.

Your first statement was made in isolation of the other one which is what you pulled me on.

Maybe Murray still practices his kicking - I just can't see Sexton wanting him to take the kicks at the moment though.

[/quote]

Sin this is what I'm talking about, where have I said I want Sexton to let Murray kick. I am saying it is always good to have another option. Read what I am writing.

The first statement was made in response to posts by you, and I was making a case for why it might be beneficial to Keatley if Murray was the one taking the kicks. Keatley's all round game is better than Rogs at this stage, but there are people who only focus on a 10's kicking percentages which is wrong. If that was taken out of the equation by letting Murray kick, Keatley would be by far the better choice between the two. Rog was an excellent outhalf for many years, that is no longer the case. The first statement was not made in isolation, it was part of a hypothetical argument, I doubt Murray will be asked to kick again.

valjester wrote:
Sin this is what I'm talking about, where have I said I want Sexton to let Murray kick. I am saying it is always good to have another option. Read what I am writing.

The first statement was made in response to posts by you, and I was making a case for why it might be beneficial to Keatley if Murray was the one taking the kicks. Keatley's all round game is better than Rogs at this stage, but there are people who only focus on a 10's kicking percentages which is wrong. If that was taken out of the equation by letting Murray kick, Keatley would be by far the better choice between the two. Rog was an excellent outhalf for many years, that is no longer the case. The first statement was not made in isolation, it was part of a hypothetical argument, I doubt Murray will be asked to kick again.

For all we know, Murray could be another option then. But to be reliable he would need to take kicks at international level and I can't see Sexton allowing that to happen.

Murray won't always be around/fit to take the kicks for Keatley. If someone like Warwick was around (like Nacewa for Madigan last year), maybe that would work. But Keatley will still need to work on his kicking out of hand etc. (and his decision making).

I would much rather we had madigan, Jackson or keatley to bring on after 10mins of any 6N game as we would be 100% more likely to score tries with any of the aforementioned on the pitch than with ROG.

The modern ten needs to be able to attack the gainline and ROG can't. The few times he has tried it this season he has been hammered. It just isn't his game. Following on from my relative negativity earlier I think we need to improve massively to beat Wales. They will be smarting from the autumn and set home. I don't see how we can get the best of their scrum if Adam Jones is fit and parity here would be an achievement. It looks like Ryan jones and Ian Evans could be back for them but even so I would have hopes of Donnacha disrupting their line out.

I just can't see where we have it over them. It strikes me at being a more attritional game than expansive and I feel we will be relying on a bit of magic from a Zebo or a Gilroy.

Just for the record. In the Heineken Cup game Edinburgh v Munster, Munster scored 3 tries with O'Gara at outhalf. Keatley came on for O'Gara for at 64 minutes. In that time, Munster didn't score a 4th try and Munster conceeded 2 tries. And last year down in Castres Munster managed to score 3 tries with ROG at outhalf (and the old drop goal to win the game). Remind me how Ulster did down there last week?

Interesting that you mention needing a flyhalf that can attack the gainline. Sexton made one break against Wales last 6Ns and passed 18 times.

Maybe Sexton should have kicked the corners a bit more. Ireland stole 4 of their ones. Evans and Ryan Jones were the Welsh locks.

Last 6Ns, Adam Jones was the TH and Ireland won parity with them in the scrum.

With all their injuries, it shouldn't be beyond this team to beat them in the Millenium.

Sin é wrote:Just for the record. In the Heineken Cup game Edinburgh v Munster, Munster scored 3 tries with O'Gara at outhalf. Keatley came on for O'Gara for at 64 minutes. In that time, Munster didn't score a 4th try and Munster conceeded 2 tries. And last year down in Castres Munster managed to score 3 tries with ROG at outhalf (and the old drop goal to win the game). Remind me how Ulster did down there last week?

Interesting that you mention needing a flyhalf that can attack the gainline. Sexton made one break against Wales last 6Ns and passed 18 times.

Maybe Sexton should have kicked the corners a bit more. Ireland stole 4 of their ones. Evans and Ryan Jones were the Welsh locks.

Last 6Ns, Adam Jones was the TH and Ireland won parity with them in the scrum.

With all their injuries, it shouldn't be beyond this team to beat them in the Millenium.

Attacking the gainline, doesn't necessarily have to result in line breaks. For example look at Zebo's second try at the weekend, Keatley attacked the gainline at pace but didn't beat a man before passing to Zebo, but him running at the Racing players held them off Zebo and gave him a bit of space.

Standulstermen wrote:I would much rather we had madigan, Jackson or keatley to bring on after 10mins of any 6N game as we would be 100% more likely to score tries with any of the aforementioned on the pitch than with ROG.

+ 1

And we'd be much less likely to concede them too.

Away to Wales
Home to England
Away to Scotland
Home to France
Away to Italy

That’s a very nice set of fixtures I think, beat Wales away and we’d carry massive momentum into the England home game (which is always one we seem to perform well in), any win away to Scotland and we’d see the French as the last obstacle to a GS.

I’m stupidly overconfident that we’re going to do well this year…

Leaving outhalf aside are we likely to see any uncapped players feature?

Maybe at centre (Luke Marshall?) or possibly backrow (Tommy O'Donnell)

Marshall will only come in if we lose the first couple of games as the earliest he will get gametime himself is 8th February. In the times today they were saying Henderson is now considered a flanker by Ireland and not a 2nd row. Looks like the same locks for the Wales game.

I don't think O'Donnell is in line for pacap either. It would have to go badly wrong

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:Just for the record. In the Heineken Cup game Edinburgh v Munster, Munster scored 3 tries with O'Gara at outhalf. Keatley came on for O'Gara for at 64 minutes. In that time, Munster didn't score a 4th try and Munster conceeded 2 tries. And last year down in Castres Munster managed to score 3 tries with ROG at outhalf (and the old drop goal to win the game). Remind me how Ulster did down there last week?

Interesting that you mention needing a flyhalf that can attack the gainline. Sexton made one break against Wales last 6Ns and passed 18 times.

Maybe Sexton should have kicked the corners a bit more. Ireland stole 4 of their ones. Evans and Ryan Jones were the Welsh locks.

Last 6Ns, Adam Jones was the TH and Ireland won parity with them in the scrum.

With all their injuries, it shouldn't be beyond this team to beat them in the Millenium.

Attacking the gainline, doesn't necessarily have to result in line breaks. For example look at Zebo's second try at the weekend, Keatley attacked the gainline at pace but didn't beat a man before passing to Zebo, but him running at the Racing players held them off Zebo and gave him a bit of space.

The stat is for running with the ball - not linebreaks. Priestland made 9 runs that day. (Might have something to do with Wales' aggressive blitz defence while Ireland was using a drift defence that day as far as I can remember). Often, the only way to get past a blitz defence is by kicking over the heads of the defence because not many of our players are able to bulldoze/run over the Welsh players.

Heres a question. How do people feel about Zebo's defence against North or Cuthbert?

Are Gilroy, Trimble, McFadden better options.

red_stag wrote:Heres a question. How do people feel about Zebo's defence against North or Cuthbert?

Are Gilroy, Trimble, McFadden better options.

Theres only one way to find out, he has played himself into that position and i don't think he'll be found wanting.

Still think Trimble would be best on the other flank - not only through form, but his physicality too... however Deccies wolfhounds selection intimates otherwise.

No. Zebo is head and shoulders above anyone bar trimble and Bowe at the minute. Doesn't make many mistakes and has great ability to creat something from nothing. He isn't perfect and his awareness in attack needs work but definite starter for me

Is Kearney a definite starter?

Nailed on

Given that the current management can't get the best out of Trimble, Gilroy hasn't been as good as last season, Zebo plays wing for munster, henshaw is still very raw, fitz is just back and earls is reluctant okay anywhere but 13 I think Kearney is nailed on.

Oh, and Bowe injured.

Next season if Henshaw can keep his trajectory going, Gilroy steps up and Tommy returns in fine form it may be a different story

red_stag wrote:Heres a question. How do people feel about Zebo's defence against North or Cuthbert?

Are Gilroy, Trimble, McFadden better options.

I'd rather ask how they will cope with Zebo. Let's not pick a team to nullify the opposition, lets pick it to beat them.

Zebo and Trimbs as wings for me. Wouldn't mind seeing Gilroy against Italy or Scotland though.

Im only changing the subject lads. Sick of ROG talk.

red_stag wrote:Im only changing the subject lads. Sick of ROG talk.

Me too.

Would love to see a Kearney, Zebo, Gilroy back 3 but Trimble is playing too well right now and McFadden is in fine form too....although there are question marks as to whether the latter two can replicate their provincial form for Ireland.

Where does Earls fit in? Could he start at 13?

Isn't ROG great? I'd think he'd make a fabulous Taoiseach.

Earls is definitely a big call.

He could play at 13 with O'Driscoll or Darcy
He could play at 11 with Zebo or Trimble
He could play at 23 covering wing, fullback, centre

I think O'Driscoll will be dropped. Anyone agree?

To be honest I hope so.

Does 12. DArcy 13. Earls fill people with confidence?

Granted they are probably the form picks but it doesn't inspire confidence with me anyway.

Plus I cant see Kidney not picking O'Driscoll if hes fit to play

Earls has not convinced me one bit he is an international 13 and anytime I see Munster I think they are better with LLL in that position. I don't think he has the required skills set to be an international 13 though he is passable at provincial level. He has an excellent try scoring record for Ireland from the wing and in broken play he can make something from nothing. The problem is the message it sends to other players that even if they are in form (Trimble), an actual winger (Gilroy), or a player with alot of international experience there (Fitzgerald) someone who doesn't play wing and doesn't want to play wing can waltz into the team.

Trimble has been the form wing this season. However Kidney hasn't got a clue how to use him for Ireland. Trimble for Ulster plays a games suited to his strengths and Anscombe and McLaughlin had worked out how to accenuate these for the best of the team. Kidney has his game plan and if that means picking square pegs into round holes so be it.

If Earls was playing wing for Munster he and Bowe would be my first choice partnership for Ireland. But he isn't. I would rather have a half fit BOD than Earls at 13 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Kidney badly needs to try something different in midfield. He has stuck with Darcy and BOD for too long even when patently clear it hasn't been working. It might work with Leinster but that is a different coach and different tactics. I would pick someone new at 12 and play them with Sexton inside and BOD outside him and give him that experience. Obviously as an Ulsterman I'd want Marshall in there as he has held his hand up over the past couple of months finally displacing Wallace. McSharry would also be worth a go. This championship will be the halfway point before the next world cup and we will still have a centre partnership that will not be there and a backup 10 in the same boat. Kidney needs to expose younger players in those positions, most of whom have top class european club competition under their belts.

Do Ireland have an attacking plan? There is little enough evidence of one on the basis of the last year.

D'arcy, BOD doesn't fill me with confidence
D'arcy, Earls really doesn't fill me with confidence.
Marshall, BOD would have been better but the top option is the lesser of two evils if you ask me.

red_stag wrote:Heres a question. How do people feel about Zebo's defence against North or Cuthbert?

Are Gilroy, Trimble, McFadden better options.

Who cares, wingers should be about attack first.

Standulstermen wrote:Do Ireland have an attacking plan? There is little enough evidence of one on the basis of the last year.

D'arcy, BOD doesn't fill me with confidence
D'arcy, Earls really doesn't fill me with confidence.
Marshall, BOD would have been better but the top option is the lesser of two evils if you ask me.

I think Zebo, Gilroy/Trimbs and K2 in the back 3 gives us a bit more balance and potency. Earls doesn't run good lines or link well in open play imo so I'd be inclined to go with the old boys again.

Losing Marshall was a big blow and would have been another missing link in the backline.

Ferris is aiming to be fit for Feb, do you think he should come straight into the team if fit? And at the expense of who?

No I'd start Henry, SOB and Heaslip, with O'Mahoney on the bench.

Give Ferris time to get fit.

Ferris is an animal, but he's been so unfit lately there would be nothing to gain from dropping him straight into the squad. If we were banjaxed with injuries it could be an option but I'd leave him to get fit...

Yeah I think we would be better of just letting Ferris get fit the back row has good options at the minute as it is and with 1F injury record you could end up doing ore damage than good. I think it would take a very bad couple of games in midfield for Kidney to think about calling up Luke Marshall because he too has been injured and won be back to at least after the first game. D'Arcy and Drico are the best option we have. Trimble would win out over Gilroy for me in the Wales match because of his better defence and better physicality. Zebo on the other side too for me, who makes the bench will be interesting though.

Ferris would help but we dont need him.

I'd be happy with O'Brien, Henry, Heaslip and O'Mahony.

Definitely wouldnt bother including him in 6 Nations.

Let Fez get back to fitness tearing up the Pro12. He shouldn't rush back and do himself another injury.

Luke can count himself very unlucky to not be in with a shout for starting vs Wales but thems the breaks. He'll be a fixture in Irish colours for the next number of years so his time will come. Anyone think McSharry has a chance?

Trimble is the form player but as many others have mentioned he's not the kind of player that suits this Irish gameplan... However with Tommy out we may need a man to come inside and be the option off Sexton/Murray like Tommy does. Gilroy on the bench with Zebo at 11.

Anyone think the Wolfhounds 9/10 battles may be for bench spots? Reddan is in an awful patch of form recently and both Boss and Small Paul have been in good form and deserve their shot. Similarly with Madigan/Keatley/Jackson.

It all depends on results. If we lose the first two games and ferris comes in and hammers zebre you can your balls to a barn door that kidney will have him straight back.

The only alternative is that kidney realises that if he loses the first two his job is gone anyway and throws caution to the wind

I think fitz is being talked up a bit above his station truth be told. He has done some nice things but the ball has died with him a couple of times too and if it had been earls or Trimble guys would have been all over it.

I genuinely hope we have no players described as 'a fixture for years' in truth because that will only result from little competition. Fitz, Trimble, Bowe, Zebo, Gilroy, Kearney, hens haw, O'Halloran etc will all be available for back three selection at the next RWC and all have signifcant pro-experience. I hope that if we do see any fixtures in the team it is as a result of competition elevating their performances and not some predetermined quality scale

The next step for Ireland is moving away from having 6-7 guys who are seen as guaranteed starters to having at most 1-2.

I'd love to see real competition throughout the team.

As long as one of them is ROG...

Standulstermen wrote:It all depends on results. If we lose the first two games and ferris comes in and hammers zebre you can your balls to a barn door that kidney will have him straight back.

Absolutely but as things stand I wouldn't bring him in. I'd start with the fit and form guys and take it from there.

Stag Ireland will never have true competition throughout the team because of the central contracts and the cultural, political and provincial divisions throughout the Island.

I don't see things ever getting to the point were we have a true International representative side. It will always be a select XV made up of the best players from the 3 main provinces rather than the best players full stop. C'est la vie..... as long as we get another GS thats the main thing

red_stag wrote:The next step for Ireland is moving away from having 6-7 guys who are seen as guaranteed starters to having at most 1-2.

I'd love to see real competition throughout the team.

Pretty hard to do when you only offer a limited amount of central contracts isnt it? I mean whats the point of centrally contracting a guy if he isnt a guarenteed starter. Should only a handful of players be centrally contracted? Im not sure how many players are centrally contracted anyway but I assume its a limited amount 16-17, anyone know?

red_stag wrote:The next step for Ireland is moving away from having 6-7 guys who are seen as guaranteed starters to having at most 1-2.

I'd love to see real competition throughout the team.

Even the fecken All Blacks don't have that. Yer in dreamland.

Not really guns.

Not saying we should experiment in the 6N against France or anything but mixing things up a bit in the AIs and summer tours and etablishing decent A fixtures would help breed competition.

Central contracts are an issue but only a big one if the IRFU extend them ridiculously or dont have the balls to retract them if a big name isn't performing or has been surpassed

Can't see Luke Marshall getting selected, and this is probably good for him until the new coach is appointed. He's a strong runner but not the crash ball stereotype that Kidney seems to be looking for, so he'd be just another Irish dimensioned peg rattling about in the generously proportioned but distinctly odd-shaped Deccie-designed hole.

Since LMs missing the first game, he will automatically not be in contention until Scotland. i.e. Ireland win v Wales - don't change a winning team OR Ireland lose v Wales - everyone deserves another chance, has something to work on and were rusty etc. Therefore only injury changes for the England visit.

Only if Ireland lose the first two games might Kidney start to change his selection. Usually this manifests itself by dropping Trimble, so he might consider having Andy on the bench v England for his scapegoat impact. That would mean dropping D'Arcy to the bench in Edinburgh to accomodate young Luke. If this blue moon crossed the sky, Luke walked on and Ireland won, it would be "only Scotland", and Kidney would probably still revert to the rhythmic Darce for France.

I would expect that Skywalker will be in the squad though and not be released as Kidney likes to make sure the fringe players get no influence from the dark side (provincial rugby coaching)!

In terms of lads with 0 caps getting any game time (a question asked earlier) I can't see many getting in on the act.

Possibly Marshall if someone gets injured well in to the tournament.

Maybe Keatley or Jackson if someone gets injured.

Can't see anyone else bustling in but we have a load of guys on <10 caps

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:The next step for Ireland is moving away from having 6-7 guys who are seen as guaranteed starters to having at most 1-2.

I'd love to see real competition throughout the team.

Pretty hard to do when you only offer a limited amount of central contracts isnt it? I mean whats the point of centrally contracting a guy if he isnt a guarenteed starter. Should only a handful of players be centrally contracted? Im not sure how many players are centrally contracted anyway but I assume its a limited amount 16-17, anyone know?

Healy, Best, Ross, POC, DOC, Ryan, Ferris, Heaslip, ROG, Sexton, D'Arcy, BOD, Earls, Trimble, Bowe, Kearney.

I'd presume that when they come up for renewal, SOB & Murray will get one.

By they way, Zebo signed a new provincial contract a few weeks ago.

Guys,

Maybe you have discussd this but there is no way I'm reading back through all that....

Does anyone ever remember a squad of 23 being announced before? Don't they usually announce an extended squad and then a team sheet of 23?

I just thought it was strange.

The Great Aukster wrote:
I would expect that Skywalker will be in the squad though and not be released as Kidney likes to make sure the fringe players get no influence from the dark side (provincial rugby coaching)!

Someone should tell Kidney where Greg Feek & Anthony Foley coach fulltime!

MrsP wrote:Guys,

Maybe you have discussd this but there is no way I'm reading back through all that....

Does anyone ever remember a squad of 23 being announced before? Don't they usually announce an extended squad and then a team sheet of 23?

I just thought it was strange.

You're right, it is odd. But most teams tend not to release an extended squad early in the week, I know Ulster do, but i never really saw the point of it to be honest. Usually, teams just announce the 23 man squad as part of naming the starting XV.