PGA Tour: Ian Poulter - Overachiever or Underachiever?: Notes from the Ballwasher

1).With the PGA Tour season still in its infancy, and golfing galacticos in Abu Dhabi, in Palm Desert or still in hibernation, two people who can't get out of the headlines made news again last week with resumption of rhetorical love/hate between Ian Poulter and Johnny Miller.
Once the "Johnny miller why don't you come and interview me live and say that stuff straight to my face . . . . Was you watching a different channel" twitterage over inferences that Poults was a drama queen had been resolved, they get in to it again over whether IJP is an "overachiever" (Miller) or an "underachiever" (Poults).

2).Not the first time of course that Poults has taken umbrage at Miller's commentary - it was just three years ago that Miller was scorning Poulter's "ball striking" whereupon the player responded by forwarding Miller the Genworth stat's for the E.T., which showed him leading the ball-striking way.

3).Miller was a great player, probably a better golfer than his two-Major record would suggest: watched an old film once of him striping long irons on the Harbour Town range - left-handed!
A genius, at least until he reached the putting green. But he has made his fortune from broadcasting and Steve Eubanks' piece, linked here, is revealing and interesting:

http://www.pga.com/news/eubanks/miller-feud-fizzling

I liked Azinger's zinger from the 1991 Ryder Cup at Kiawah, calling Miller "the biggest moron". Then, backtracking, he offered that what he meant to call Miller was "the biggest Mormon".

4).Perhaps because he tends to favour American golfers, or perhaps it's that he prefers to take cheap shots and Europeans won't take it, it seems to be guys like Casey, Poults and Westwood who take exception these days.
But perceptions about "achievement" are interesting, what do you think about Poults?

5).Has he overachieved to have two WGC titles in his locker, not to mention a hatful of other titles outside America? He also has three highly creditable runners up finishes in The Open and The Players (possibly unlucky there, getting caught in some nonsense in Round 3 and losing strokes) and an Amex WGC.
Or should he have done more, on the PGA Tour at least? He's yet to reach the Tour Championship despite having an enviable record of consistency including not having a missed cut since September 2011.

6).He's been consistently outstanding in the Ryder Cup, but has seldom contended in Majors, his runner-up to Harrington and his flash of front-nine brilliance at Kiawah notwithstanding. His PGA Tour record is:
Tournaments played: 149
Cuts made: 115 (77%)
Top 25's: 57 (38%)
Top 10's: 26 (17%)
Top 3's: 8: (5%)

7).Was Miller right about Poults's "ball striking' (total driving plus greens in reg)? Miller tends to forget there's golf outside the States except for Ryder and Pres.Cup jollies, so in his myopic eye he's right. Poulter's Tour rank these past eight years has been mediocre at best:171st in his first year (2005) and since then: 29th, 185th, 194th, 164th, 174th, 118th and 131st.
Not exactly anything to Tweet home about. But his European Tour record has been consistently better. Perhaps an undue proportion of "Tour" outings are on more difficult courses than for the average player? Quite probably.

8).What's the Poulter outlook looking forward then? He'll continue to play the biggest tournaments so that his chances of winning are somewhat diminished. (Hartford suits him down to the ground, though.)
Unless he wins, he's not likely to play enough to prosper in the FedEx Play-Offs. But he'll still be a MatchPlay genius, the Piggott-, Woods-like will to win, especially at Ryder Cup level will cause him to stand apart. And continue to be a golfing enigma.

9).Ross Fisher and David Lynn embark on their PGA Tour odyssey this week, at the "Humana Challenge", where they'll be joined by Messrs Davis and Owen (bad missed cuts for both last week) and Martin Laird (who?). Laird finished 14th last year, but how much rust has crept in to his game? We'll see soon enough, but The Laird needs a good finish or five, or he'll be watching the Majors on TV.
Very good to see Brett Quigley and Lucas Glover back in action.
Difficult to have strong feelings about likely winners here, but perhaps unwise to ignore the most recent form of Tim Clark, my very lukewarm fancy who has two second-place finishes here.
But if Russell Henley (Snedeker-like?) putts like he did last week he may win 25 times this year.

10).And the Champions Tour season revs up this week, only in first gear as the "Mitsubishi Electric Championship" has just forty runners, many of them there by invitation rather than merit. But that didn't diminish the quality of shot-making three years ago when Watson just edged out Couples.
All the Russell Henleys in the world couldn't compete with that exhibition.

Kwini - Miller is so one eyed he comes across here as no more than a bag of wind. Great golfer, some excellent tips available on YT but as a regular source of expert, influential (I daren't include impartial) comment he doesn't rate. I think the phrase over there is a blowhard?
Poulter has overachieved for a 5 handicapper turning pro and selling mars bars. For a now experienced touring pro with unfulfilled ambition he has clearly underachieved. I hope he puts that right, but not everyone does. Are you listening Lee Westwood!!

I think Poulter, although latterly a pratt is perhaps one of the most under-rated players on either tour. Much of this due to his pre-circa 2008 rantings, I think he's been much better and understated since then and a very consistent player.

Poulter, without a doubt has one of the best short games in the business, this isn't enough to be a top top player (as Harry Redknapp would say) but the number of tournaments he has won, (only one or two less than Luke Donald) says that he has achieved a great deal, and 99% of pro golfers would love to have had his career, especially as a Ryder Cup legend. I think he's got the belief and game to win a major should the course suit, and certainly with Rose and perhaps Donald the most likely Englishman to do so.

I hope he does, even if it's just to give the wretched Johnny Miller the middle finger.

Unanimous views so far on Miller then!

Poulter seems to me to be a very good Tour player who can enjoy moments of inspiration but doesn't seem to have the application for run-of-the-mill 72-hole grinds. Except of course that he's had plenty of wins outside the States.

Really hope he takes inspiration from the great RC press he received and kicks on. Would love to see him win at Merion.

Miller says some inane things, but I also enjoy his candor at times. (Calls a yip a yip.)

Poulter will need his short game to be at full throttle for Merion. Of course, Rory has the best chance of all the Euros IMO for that event, then I might give the nod to Rose or Poulter.

I would love to see TW win at Merion.

SR, I think TW would pay a lot of money for Poult's short game these days. Woods is nothing short of average at present.

I can't stand Poulter. A real case of style (lack of) over substance. His posturing and posing will always write cheques his performance will never cash in my opinion.

His "chavvish" behaviour belongs on the football pitch and acting like that when playing a non-aggressive game like golf just makes him look naff to me.

That said if he never makes another cut he's had a very decent career.

Can't say I know a great deal about Johnny Miller but if he winds up Poufter he's alright by me.

Super - Essentially agree with that.

And Poulter -- again with as many majors to his credit as me and my dog -- better learn to channel some of that RC magic into 4 rounds all by his lonesome. It ain't easy.

IMO, Poulter is not not nearly as good as his Ryder Cup record, and his Ryder Cup record is almost a best case scenario on his actual play.

Lets examine the his matches at Medinah. Poulter had a brilliant 5 holes to conclude the four-ball match w/ Rory against Dufner/Zach.

But aside from the five hole stretch, his play was was rather average. Its just that his opponents played below average.

Rose/Poulter matched up against Stricker/Woods in Session 1. Stricker and Woods (particularly Woods) played really badly to lose that match. Poulter/Rose were only 1 under par.

Session 2: Poulter was on the bench

Session 3: Playing against Simpson/Watson, again Poulter/Rose were only 1 under par. Not a great score.

Session 4: Poulter had that outstanding final 5 holes, but his play going in the 14th hole was not stellar, and Poulter/Rory were 2 down going to the 13th tee.

Session 5: Singles against Webb Simpson. Poulter was 2 under par. Good score, but not great and all other things being equal, he would have lost to about half of the Yanks if he had played them day.

A good individual Ryder Cup record is about luck just as much as it skill and should not make any evaluations on how good a players record based on RC record.

Poulter still has not won a stroke play tournament against a full field of all the top PGAT pros.

IMO, he is over-rated......and over-achieved both at the same time.

super_realist wrote:SR, I think TW would pay a lot of money for Poult's short game these days. Woods is nothing short of average at present.

As Woods' biggest critic what do you think he's done well to get back to No 2 in the World Rankings?

Have to wonder why guys like miller who have been at the very top of the game get drawn in to TV sniping.seem to recall jm going months under par every round at one time.top player at the time.Ip will always have to carry the 5 handicap thing but must give inspiration if nothing else.

GPB, show me one player who has 18 great holes in every round? It doesn't happen regularly at all.

Golf is defined by scoring when possible, playing safe and minimising mistakes, it isn't likely that someone is going to shoot 18 birdies despite every pro and many club golfers having the potential to do so.

Courses are set up to be tricky in competition, especially in matchplay, and simply scoring averagely doesn't mean that you are playing poorly, you could be playing great, but getting bad luck, or lipping out etc, just as you can find yourself several under without playing that well.

Poulter hasn't missed a single cut since 2011. How many people can say that?

Hibbz, Woods has been consistent without being truly spectacular. His short game is that of a top 30 player, not the peerless combination of good short game and pretty good putting it once was.

Come on mate, consistent wouldn't have got him to No 2. I'm not sure what he's done well myself but he must have done plenty to get back up the rankings.

Guess it doesn't really belong on this thread anyway.

Sr,
I like Miller talking about players he's taken the time to learn about, but he's lazy and doesn't do his homework on guys from outside the States. In common with the rest of NBC TV of course.
Don't know why you talk about the number of Majors Poulter has won - that was one of the points of the article! He himself is self-critical of his focus in stroke-play events, may even be somewhat ADD afflicted, though he seems able to focus on his Ferraris.

GPB,
You sound like Johnny Miller . . . . . . . . If it were Woods, say, rather than Poultie, you'd say his opponents played poorly because of his intimidation factor! Can't have it both ways!!

His record in the Ryder Cup speaks for itself, as of course it does in Majors.

HIbbz, consistency got Donald to number one for an entire year if you remember.

Also, he had the benefit of barely no points to lose as his ranking had dropped so much. Merely by turning up and making the top 30 he was doing better than he had in the last two years and increasing his co-efficient accordingly.

Had he played in 2007 like he did in 2012 his ranking average would have dropped, it might still have kept him at #1 but it would be tailing off.
Now is ranking is THREE, and he has points to defend in 2013, it will be interesting to see if he can match his year of 2012 and press on, or merely just be another tour player without a major in more than 4 full seasons.

I suspect he'll have purple patches as a player of his quality does, but he's not got the fine mental edge he used to, the fear factor has gone, he's not as accurate with his approach and he can't putt as well.
Still good enough to be top ten, but not miles in front as a dominant force.
Pretty sure we'll see him dodge the Ryder Cup ( cue knee twinge late September 2014)

Kwin - Topic at hand is over or underachieve for IJP. Perplexed you would wonder why I bring up majors. It's a measure for a professional golfer! Time for him to wow us with a victory. Would I bet on him to win one? No ... Not sure why anyone would paint him a favorite at this time. But bet away when the windows open.

Why couldn't he win one? There are plenty of people who have achieved far less in their careers, with far worse games than Poulter who have won majors.
If you make the cut at a major, you have a chance to win one.
Is Poulter a favourite, well he's not in the top 5-6, but he's not far behind in terms of betting.
Short of actually winning a major last year, he probably had better combined results than anyone in 2012 in major competitions. 7th, 41st, 9th and 3rd.

I DID mention that he'd seldom contended in Majors! The bleeding obvious of course.

s_r is right that his Major finishes recently have been consistent, but just below the level where you really think he'll win one. Excellent record at Augusta but never seems to maintain his threat. Certainly can't see him winning Muirfield or Oak Hill this year, but the next two US Opens might be possibilities.

Certainly worth an each way bet Kwini, and after the end he had to last year, who knows what he could do. Certainly no one really burning it up form wise right now, so reckon there are 60 odd players capable of winning The Masters this year.

Shame there wasn't a Major in November . . . . .

Poulter is the kind of player that pops up at the big tournaments, yet rarely contend at regular tournaments. I look forward to his 2013.

I think Poult is as much of an overachiever as Charles Howell 3 is an underachiever. Ian is not very talented, and his swing is horrible but i for one really admire what he has achieved in spite of these barriers.

Miller is the biggest toolbag in golf, i really cannot stand the guy.

inconti,
Followed Poulter for 36-ish holes 18 months ago, loved the efficiency of his swing, great ball flight off his driver. May not look pretty but, when it's working, it's pretty efective.

Would actually say CHIII is a won't-achiever - obvious that his short game is his weakness yet apparently never practices it! As Peter Kostis famously commentated a few years ago, Charles has laid up to his weakness!!

The fact that Poulter is playing some of his best golf now absolutely speaks to "overachieving". He's above his baseline.

The fact that he thinks he's underachieving speaks to his (probably healthy) ego, but not much more. He may think he should have won a major or more tournaments, but why? This is right up there with the Monty "should have won" a major.

Not talented? Ridiculous. You can't get to number four or five in the world on determination and certainly can't spend several years in the top 30.
He might not have Mickelson or Mcilroy's talent but he has more than most.


It wouldn't be a surprise if he won a major, lesser players than him have done so, and it wouldn't make him an overachiever but if he didn't win won he wouldn't be an underachiever.

He's just a very good golfer, but not top drawer

To mention poulter having a four handicap when turning pro seems to mean little in the discussion of his career performance. Do we have any idea why it was 4 and he did not go down the usual amateur route?

He could have played another year as an amateur and got down to +4 for all we know of the situation when he made that decision.

In general it is an odd idea to discuss whether a player has over or under achieved as all the evidence is in the results. Given his attributes and who he played against he has achieved exactly what you would expect.

How could we ever test any theory you could come up with as to whether he over or under achieved?

Mac, he couldn't afford to play amateur golf, you are basically a full time pro in all but name, with similar expenses.
He was a 4 hcp in number, but didn't get the opportunity to play many comps due to work commitments, however he was in reality, far better than a 4 handicap. I'm quite a bit lower than 4 and the idea of turning pro would be hilarious.

Poulter is a legend of sport. but not a legendary player...

The player I respect the most on tour at the moment and he he also got his stroke play WGC - something many other english players of arguably better ability havent managed..

and if we are just talking about match players/team players then poulter for my money is no.1 and has been for a good few years..

also a very good top 15 player in the world which is some acheivment.

I love the way you lot have turned around in favour of him. I used to a lone follower !! but then his acheivments cant be discounted recently

In terms of is he an overacheiver or an underacheier is a tough question, and i am not sure how relevant..

But he can be 100% proud of what he does and he gives it his all.. He never flakes out like mcilroy or serge does. He seems to be able to flick a switch and turn into the best putter ever in match play scenarios, however he cant maintain a level to win a major yet!!

certainly a person that acheives.. He is a winner,

however if he doesnt win a major in his carrer- he will be the first to feel gutted about it..

hes an underachiever.... sure hes the second best player in the world yet ranked number 14!

I wonder if Shotrock and Johnny Miller are on the same page here??!!

Great play being made of all the (non-N.Irish, as the narrative changes with the wind) British golfers who have achieved so much (including several Ryder Cup wins of course, which never go down well) and talk about none ever having won a Major, yet the one who HAS won a Major gets even shorter shrift. Even though he's won more Majors than Shotrock's dog!

Poulter will be under more scrutiny than ever this year, which is sure to lead to more contretemps with the US media if nothing else!

"Poulter will be under more scrutiny than ever this year"

poulter will rise it it- dont ya think.

He allways seems to..

ADD TO THAT

Lets not forget his amazing start to the open(or pga) when he started out the final day with 6 straight birds or something..

Come on King Poults do ya magic son..

I guess in reality there isnt such a thing as under or over achieving, you achieve what you achieve.
He's excelled in some ways, not done so well in others, mainly being regularly competitive week in and week out on the PGA , but he's hardly alone in that regard. Westy and Monty have never set the world alight either.

You'll never find me disparaging Darren Clarke or that true World Beater, Mr. Harrington, who always seems to get blasted around here.

But speaking of British golfers, add em up boys -- Westy, Donald, Rose and Poulter will probably together not have as many majors as Paddy when it's all said and done. That's a bet I would make!

All roads for the big tournaments go through Northern Ireland, however, until further notice.

I will take your bet?

Diggers wrote:I guess in reality there isnt such a thing as under or over achieving, you achieve what you achieve.
He's excelled in some ways, not done so well in others, mainly being regularly competitive week in and week out on the PGA , but he's hardly alone in that regard. Westy and Monty have never set the world alight either.

Ain't that the truth.

Enough with the "should of won more", "unfortunate circumstances", "got robbed of a major" bleedin' nonsense ... finish the job, hold the trophy, play in next tournament.

Mysti - PM me!

Sr,
But last time I checked DC was not "non-N. Irish"!

Winter's back in the Champlain Valley.

Shotrock wrote:Mysti - PM me!

can i add all UK players bar NI or is it just the 4 you mention.

basically i got to way up the odds!

We can be sure that Poults won't win the "Humana Challenge" and it's anyone's guess who will. Long hitters and short hitters have prospered here and everyone's favourite "ball striker" Pat Perez enjoyed his only win here also.

Weather is forecast to co-operate, temps in the 70's, a breeze but no high wind, and that should last through the weekend.

Three different courses in play the first three (pro-am) days, then the top 70 pros high-tail it to "PGA West"'s Palmer Course on Sunday.

Scores will be low, but who will go the lowest?

Mysti - Pick 5 UK, put a time period on it (3 years, 5 years) does that work? $100 (or pounds) to charity of the winner's choice?

ok by me..

100 dollars is fine.. 5 years(as you can see i am getting lesss confident !)

I will go for westy, donald, poulter, rose and tom lewis..

Now lets watch paul casey win 3 on his own!!

I think you are a big fav here tbh!! well over 5 years anyway!

but as its for charity.... so cool.

bets on

Great - Now I have to figure out how to put this reminder in in iPhone 5 years hence. And a charity's already going to be a winner.

(Didn't see Tom Lewis coming.)

And Harrington may not be done yet!

so lets get this straight- my 5 can match his record..

is that fair?. so at the moment my 5 need 3 majors..

You need 3 out of 100 Oakey, not bad odds.

i doubt tom lewis will get into all of them SR(so probally not quite 100)- however he is my wild card- because i think anything could happen with him..

Super - Harrington gets (hopefully) 20 starts, so 3 may grow.

Current four leaders are a Scot, an Englishman, an Aussie and an Argie.
Who'd've thunk it?

Looks like scoring will be off the charts this week.
Most haven't finished their first nine holes yet and already 26 golfers are -3 or better, only six +2 or worse.

Colourfull scorecards this week!! And plenty of players with 4 eagles in a round. Not seen very often!