PGA Tour: Ian Poulter - Overachiever or Underachiever?: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).With the PGA Tour season still in its infancy, and golfing galacticos in Abu Dhabi, in Palm Desert or still in hibernation, two people who can't get out of the headlines made news again last week with resumption of rhetorical love/hate between Ian Poulter and Johnny Miller.
Once the "Johnny miller why don't you come and interview me live and say that stuff straight to my face . . . . Was you watching a different channel" twitterage over inferences that Poults was a drama queen had been resolved, they get in to it again over whether IJP is an "overachiever" (Miller) or an "underachiever" (Poults).

2).Not the first time of course that Poults has taken umbrage at Miller's commentary - it was just three years ago that Miller was scorning Poulter's "ball striking" whereupon the player responded by forwarding Miller the Genworth stat's for the E.T., which showed him leading the ball-striking way.

3).Miller was a great player, probably a better golfer than his two-Major record would suggest: watched an old film once of him striping long irons on the Harbour Town range - left-handed!
A genius, at least until he reached the putting green. But he has made his fortune from broadcasting and Steve Eubanks' piece, linked here, is revealing and interesting:

http://www.pga.com/news/eubanks/miller-feud-fizzling

I liked Azinger's zinger from the 1991 Ryder Cup at Kiawah, calling Miller "the biggest moron". Then, backtracking, he offered that what he meant to call Miller was "the biggest Mormon".

4).Perhaps because he tends to favour American golfers, or perhaps it's that he prefers to take cheap shots and Europeans won't take it, it seems to be guys like Casey, Poults and Westwood who take exception these days.
But perceptions about "achievement" are interesting, what do you think about Poults?

5).Has he overachieved to have two WGC titles in his locker, not to mention a hatful of other titles outside America? He also has three highly creditable runners up finishes in The Open and The Players (possibly unlucky there, getting caught in some nonsense in Round 3 and losing strokes) and an Amex WGC.
Or should he have done more, on the PGA Tour at least? He's yet to reach the Tour Championship despite having an enviable record of consistency including not having a missed cut since September 2011.

6).He's been consistently outstanding in the Ryder Cup, but has seldom contended in Majors, his runner-up to Harrington and his flash of front-nine brilliance at Kiawah notwithstanding. His PGA Tour record is:
Tournaments played: 149
Cuts made: 115 (77%)
Top 25's: 57 (38%)
Top 10's: 26 (17%)
Top 3's: 8: (5%)

7).Was Miller right about Poults's "ball striking' (total driving plus greens in reg)? Miller tends to forget there's golf outside the States except for Ryder and Pres.Cup jollies, so in his myopic eye he's right. Poulter's Tour rank these past eight years has been mediocre at best:171st in his first year (2005) and since then: 29th, 185th, 194th, 164th, 174th, 118th and 131st.
Not exactly anything to Tweet home about. But his European Tour record has been consistently better. Perhaps an undue proportion of "Tour" outings are on more difficult courses than for the average player? Quite probably.

8).What's the Poulter outlook looking forward then? He'll continue to play the biggest tournaments so that his chances of winning are somewhat diminished. (Hartford suits him down to the ground, though.)
Unless he wins, he's not likely to play enough to prosper in the FedEx Play-Offs. But he'll still be a MatchPlay genius, the Piggott-, Woods-like will to win, especially at Ryder Cup level will cause him to stand apart. And continue to be a golfing enigma.

9).Ross Fisher and David Lynn embark on their PGA Tour odyssey this week, at the "Humana Challenge", where they'll be joined by Messrs Davis and Owen (bad missed cuts for both last week) and Martin Laird (who?). Laird finished 14th last year, but how much rust has crept in to his game? We'll see soon enough, but The Laird needs a good finish or five, or he'll be watching the Majors on TV.
Very good to see Brett Quigley and Lucas Glover back in action.
Difficult to have strong feelings about likely winners here, but perhaps unwise to ignore the most recent form of Tim Clark, my very lukewarm fancy who has two second-place finishes here.
But if Russell Henley (Snedeker-like?) putts like he did last week he may win 25 times this year.

10).And the Champions Tour season revs up this week, only in first gear as the "Mitsubishi Electric Championship" has just forty runners, many of them there by invitation rather than merit. But that didn't diminish the quality of shot-making three years ago when Watson just edged out Couples.
All the Russell Henleys in the world couldn't compete with that exhibition.

Apart from the loop holes i personal utilise to maximse my income(most perfectly legal btw) my girlfriend works on an accounts team and earns 28k.. Although that isnt much- she lied to get that job(been there 10 years)- She got a D in Maths and had to say she got a C..

I dont think thats wrong its just the way life is.

I remeber when i had a few issues and was out of work for 2 years(when i was 21)

I ended up dating recruitment consultenst just to get a job.. I would lie on every CV- and ended up getting a JOB for lehmans in the city- decent money decent job(risk management). I could do the job as goo if not better than most of the others!!

Offcourse after the firm went bust i just cracked on and started my own buisness..

Yeah maybe my morals are messed up but I truely believe you make your own luck in this world, and if you gotta cut corners then so flaming be it!

mystiroakey wrote:let them crack on- its the govt fault, not your average joe schmoe.. He is just a product of the society.

If you make things easy to abuse- sadly they will be abused!

My point about Joe is that just because someone is on the take doesn't make it OK for someone else to do it. If you extrapolate that thinking, society is f****d. It's pathetic that this country is regressing socially where everyone knows their entitlements but has no wider responsibilities.

HiGun wrote:This in todays Mail, makes my blood boil:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2270247/ITV-This-Morning-Couple-living-17k-handouts-say-working-minimum-wage-unfair.html

Well, there's some messed up thinking there! Also, ~£1000 p/a on TV? What?? If sensible changes can be made to benefits to get rid of these amoral shysters, I'm all for it.

Can we ban sky sports from these poor souls.. Lets be honest what else have they got


Seriously yeah its a joke..

There seems to be an expectation in todays 'young' people that they should be able to walk in to £25k+ roles. Thats not the way business works, you have to work your way up. You start at the bottom and once you have proved your worth/or not you get a pay rise/or not.

or you do what Mystiroakey did and lie. Which, unless your lyeing about being a doctor or some such life endangering profession, is fine. Shows a bit of get up and go...good on you Mysti!!

I don't blame the young couple. I blame society. They'd need a job paying the double if it should be worthwile spending 8 hrs a day + transportation time and cost on a job. I even doubt they could find a job at that pay. So why bother?

The young couple want bread, but government give them cake. And pie. Until they crack.
At the same time we create a new lower class, i.e. immigrants who don't bother taking crappy jobs at crappy pay - even illegally. Segregation revisited? Master and servant? Welfare state my @ss!

"why bother"?

because where are they going to get in life with that attitude. In five years time they will whinging that they cannot get a job because they have no experience.

What is he doing with his day now? Nothing! He needs to get off his @rse and start building a future for his young family.

Crappy jobs with crappy pay are what you do when you leave school with no quals, work hard and you will get the better jobs with the better pay!!

HiGun wrote:...or you do what Mystiroakey did and lie. Which, unless your lyeing about being a doctor or some such life endangering profession, is fine. Shows a bit of get up and go...good on you Mysti!!

Unless you get caught....which he didn't so I guess that's OK in this case! More fool his employers for not checking enough I guess.

pedro wrote:I don't blame the young couple. I blame society....

I blame them both. They shouldn't be able to buy a 47" flashy TV on benefits. Period. Or afford tattoos. Etc etc. Their entitlement attitude (and how warped is that?!) is also utterly contemptible.

HiGun wrote:There seems to be an expectation in todays 'young' people that they should be able to walk in to £25k+ roles. Thats not the way business works, you have to work your way up. You start at the bottom and once you have proved your worth/or not you get a pay rise/or not.

or you do what Mystiroakey did and lie. Which, unless your lyeing about being a doctor or some such life endangering profession, is fine. Shows a bit of get up and go...good on you Mysti!!

I used to allways embelish my CV - you know add times and stuff(so no gaps) and say I went travelling and all that.. But it was a couple of recruitment consultants that really pushed my lies.. I have goodish qualification.. but due to issues in my life i couldnt hold a job down then i was out of work for two years-So something had to change!

So rather than showing countless ok temp roles and a gap of two years(as the standard travelling lie!!), i only showed a few and put the rest of the time as working for my muns business!! doing the full managerial role and all the accounts(i am part acca anyway)- that got me in as an assitant accountant at a small arab commercial bank, then from there i moved into risk reporting. then i went to lehmans and did risk management

You truely do not get a chance unless you really sell yourself.. Yes many would see it as amorale but at the end of the day it really is all about doing everything you can to get to wherever you want to be. I allways tell people to embelish cv's - all the time.. Its a must!


I interview people alot in my job at the momentt- I am just sorting out a new office with a bigger call centre- so i need about 6 more telesales peops and a couple of admin..

The rubbish i am getting is unbelivable(and maybe half never even turn up to the interviews).. I have to be honest i dont even care about the cvs. Its all about them. And if I found out they lied about there cv but were really commited to wanting to work and earn etc . I would probally look at them favourbly(especially in sales)


I had one guy in yesterday and asked how much he would clear basic..

I said about 1100, but we dont want you to earn that ..

He came back saying "thats ok i can live on that and there is the small chance i can earn more"... Needless to say i cut that interview very short!

These people feel entitled to earn even if they dont earn the company the money back.. and that is sadly the typical view at the moment!

then i went to lehmans and did risk management

did a good job there, aye?

My dealers were fine tbh.. There breached FX limits all day but thats pretty minor tbh..They hated us though..

Agree with you whole heartily Mysti... you dont get anything given to you on a plate...oh apart from your dole money, which if thats the limit of your ambition then I feel sorry for you!

Further to your interview, did the guy not understand that you were giving him the tools & opportunity to earn a fortune if he put his back into it?

he clearly didnt!

It was kind off explained to him many times!! but even if your soul ambition is to collecet basic from a sales job- At least have the sense to lie about it!

I have 3 open positions at my company and have had some real difficulty filling them.

But, along those same lines Mysti ... one of my best golfing buddies has a major role with one of the "biggie" accounting/consulting firms. He went to great schools, but started at the bottom, which is almost always on-site auditing. Back when he did it (not THAT long ago), when your boss told you to be in the middle of Arkansas for two weeks starting Monday, you simply did it. Now, he said, they get flooded with "special requests" from the new hires to travel to certain locations only. Think about it -- you (or more likely your parents) just shelled out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and your foot is on the gas pedal, but you're telling your boss how "you" would like to work? Just crazy.

navy, higun, I agree with you both. I am just realistic on how human beings behave. 4 of 5 would jump the fence, especially if they are not encouraged otherwise.

You,d like my CV mysti I completeley missout the 3 years where I was building and working on a golf course.Never put your handicap down prospective employer may think you like to spend lots of time on the course.
Few years ago I had a call on a friday late afternoon asking if I would be able to do an interview the next day saturday morning.I explained that I would not due to a team golf competitoin and would not let the others down at short notice,I was available any other time that weekend or the following week.Guy didnt ring back.Decent enough opportunity but what do you do

Funnily enough I have just today written a CV. F@ck me it's hard work trying to elaborate your responsibilities as a postman!!

I did put my golf handicap but under your advice Dyna will now remove it.

Lol my friend put a handicap of 2 on his CV when he was looking for jobs years ago- and his lowest ever handicap was only 9!!

I have no idea why he did that..

But hey he got a decent job anyway!

personally i find the goal of 'making money' alone is not a great incentive to work harder. i enjoy what i do because the work itself fascinates me. i don't meet many people who view their labour in the same way. its a shame that this modern world provides jobs which are filled with monotony, all striving to create wealth, and not a lot more.

ban theres a recession on pal..

Its tough going for those who arnt blessed with having the perfect interesting job..


Your lucky

all the relevant info on a cv can be put on the back of a postcard. just make sure and put a captivating image on the front.

don't i know it mysti - i spent nearly a year out of my profession trying to get back in thanks to the damn recession which brought it to its knees!

Well its good your happy in your job,

I have achieved something that i never thought i could. However if i went back in time i would probally have studied geography/archiology and nature(what ever that may be called).. I just love the wildlife!

But at least I have time to engage in hobbies and stuff.

Barragan - I think there's a lot to be said for striving to enjoy "work" - almost regardless of what that function is. My observation is that people who bring a high level of passion to almost any task are more productive overall.

I've had the most success with "hire the athlete - teach them the sport".

Poulter turned pro with +5 didn't he? - and made a decent career. It was a risk but he suceeded. Many fail though - but if you don't try nothing happens.
Which brings us back to the original question: Overacheiver or underacheiver?

(I wonder how he would portray himself in a CV though...? )

4 handicap pedro. (plus means minus- well its all confusing isnt it- but I take it you meant 5)

And pouter is the perfect example of someone who has acheived in my mind. I cant have enough respect for him

i think one of the most rewarding jobs i've come across people doing is furniture/cabinet making (carpentry). come across a few seriously talented designers who are producing really stunning pieces of furniture with an enormous amount of job satisfaction. william morris penned an interesting little book on the subject of work called 'Useful Work v. Useless Toil'.

My industry feels like a con half the time.. making something quality with alot of skillz must bring some satisfation..

i'd love to have the ability to produce something like this:

Spoiler:

a mate of mine loves his job and regularly says:

"if you enjoy your job, you'll never work a day in your life"

I dont know how true this is as im a money grabbing desk jockey and just see it as a means to an end but would like to think I might get there one day...

mysti

You are barely literate, and I hate to think how bad your maths is. There is no way you fooled anyone into thinking you could carry out a highly skilled job requiring a masters degree in something numerate.

Did you just put down that you had a Phd in mathematics and no one bothered to check?

Mac, finance in the city is all about lying. No reason why he couldn't do it. There are a lot of people in there with not even a degree. Barrow boys.

What is it you do for a living. You've never revealed.

Mac is such a div.. lol.. I have an a at maths alevel and an a in accountancy.. I also have acca quals. I am dyslexic yes.. but I am very motivated and own a successfull business.

And lol if think you need a masters degree to get into my fields then your having a laff. I was fortunate to prigress from accountancy to risk reoorting then on to risk management.. infact almost everyone in the city has a degree only. And my acca quals are past degree level.. I did go uni but dropped out(father had cancer)But continued with acca as after yr one at uni I had an exemption from the first 3 modules.


I have never ever lied on this borad in my life.. if you wanna come down to london and meet up I will give you any proof you want.not that I give a crap offcourse..

Also, Mac claims to have a degree, but it hasn't got him anywhere, he lives in a Haymarket bedsit typing one handed looking forlornly at a Woods poster.

Typical of people who havent achieved a thing!

He does this to me once a month- and he gets to me!!.. Yeah I shouldnt start talking about my life lol, I just allways try to talk about real life examples when it comes to debates and opinions!.. But I Just set myself up for it every time!

I think its apt on the poulter board becasue for my money he shows the type of determination i admire. I reakon mac works for a council doing admin or something- I have allways assumed that. and the only reason he comes across all liberal and hippy style is because he actually has no balls to do anything..

How sad it must be for him to be outdone by someone who cant even spell- It doesnt sit right in his paranoid mind!

No doubt he's in a trade union too and pickets when he's got the chance against the big bad coalition. I've tried getting it out of him what he does but he never reveals just judges everyone else and slates what car they drive, as if that can make you a bad person.
Obviously what he does is something very special as he is so holier than thou .
He likes to pretend he's got strong economical theory which either means he's an accounts assistant or he dishes out benefits, he loathes the financial sector, so can't work in Edinburgh's only industry.
He doesn't think wealthy people can be nice or decent so he's fairly low on any career ladder, subordinate and jealous of his seniors ,perhaps a teaching assistant. possibly a librarian. Mind you given how self righteous he is, socialist, Guardian Reading probably means he actually is...................a teacher with beard, tank top and sock/sandals arrangement, but this gives him a position where he can lord it over white van men and working class Sun readers.


Any other suggestions?

Question: Why the continual proactive attacks on Mac? You don't have a clue what he does or doesn't do and why should he tell you?

Just give it a rest and let's get back to Poulter from now on in this thread.

Not an attack on Mac at all Navy, just surmising what he might do, given how he questioned Oakey's employment based on how he perceives Oakey's intelligence. Only fair to question what Mac does in that situation, given the somewhat pious manner in which he projects himself as some sort of paragon of virtue, decentness and political correctness.

Mac knows how to take us and how to defend himself (if I've overstepped the mark he normally sends me a PM so perhaps he's a moderator ).


As requested, back on topic:


I think Poulter has underachieved. Superb short game, decent driver of the ball, just lacking the 4 round minerals in big events.
Still 99% of pro's would like to be as good as him, even if they might not want to be him.

HiGun wrote:This in todays Mail, makes my blood boil:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2270247/ITV-This-Morning-Couple-living-17k-handouts-say-working-minimum-wage-unfair.html

I see your annoying Daily Mail article on benefits, and raise you an even more annoying one...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2225987/Angela-Epsteins-furious-attack-Government-My-family-losing-child-benefit-just-earning-100k.html

Child benefit is a pittance isn't it?
How anyone other than the very poor can get any sort of benefit out of it is rather odd. Isn't it something like 20 a week for the first and 10 for the second? 30 a week for someone on 100k?

Super

If it makes you feel any better I can assure you that I gain no pleasure out of what I do.

mysti

You make me laugh, you are a bee's dick away from going down the fader route.

Mac, it's perfectly possible that Oakey is exactly what he says he is. I know a few people in the financial sector in London, and some really don't come across as bright, (not saying you aren't bright Oakey) but a lot of it is who you know, how you come across, how you SELL yourself.

Whats the value of a degree when everyone else has one? What sets you apart is who you are. Degrees and Masters have only got my foot in the door, you learn nothing until you are in the job.

Oakey even if he doesn't have a degree could quite easily have started at the bottom. SOme of the brightest people in the city, never went to Uni.

You're intriguing me though Mac, so something which gives you no pleasure, so it's mundane, or you aren't comfortable with the politics?

"Whats the value of a degree "

I guess you are correct. What is the point in getting a degree when for people like mysti a deep understanding of advanced statistics just comes to you in a dream?

super_realist wrote:Whats the value of a degree

£27,000 for a three-year course now, isn't it?

Hopefully the ultimate upshot of this current economic situation and the recent banking scandals will be people will realise what a crock of Poopie the city is. Gambling other people's money for little other than their own personal gain and ultimately strangling rather than bolstering the real economy.

McLaren wrote:"Whats the value of a degree "

I guess you are correct. What is the point in getting a degree when for people like mysti a deep understanding of advanced statistics just comes to you in a dream?

Mac, some of the most stupid people I know have a degree, it doesn't make you intelligent or necessarily give you a lot of knowledge about a particular subject. A mate of mine grew up on a council estate, left school at 16, went on to become an IFA, earns nearly a 100k and has about 50 properties, bright as a button though, despite his lack of academic credentials.
Prince William went to University though, studied Art History and it qualifies him to do bugger all.
People like Alan Sugar never went to University and speak like he's lived his whole life on a council estate. You doubting his acumen?

Are you just bitter that someone who you perceive to be less intelligent then is doing better than you are despite your flouncy arts degree?
It's people who think that because they have a degree that the world owes them a better living that someone who hasn't got one which make a mockery of it.
A degree guarantees you nothing except a few very lean years of income.

Super

You have totally missed the point. I am in no way saying any of the bilge you typed above.

I made the simple point that mysti claimed to do a job where you need to have a very specific technical skill. In this case a degree in a highly numerate subject. This is not to say anyone who holds such a degree is more intelligent than someone who doesn't, it just says they know about a type of maths that you cannot pick up any other way.

So mysti may well be the next alan sugar, but that does not enable him to understand theories of probability and statistics.

Mac,
"The City" is full of wide boys, barrow boys who are not academically bright or even have degrees in statistics or probablity. It just takes an opportunity to get in the door, it might be nepotism (there are plenty of chinless wonders in there) it might be starting at the very bottom. Much of the City is about expunging confidence. Much of the City is not even numerically complicated or statistically difficult to grasp. You certainly wouldn't need to be Simon Singh to understand much of it far less have a degree in it. In fact, I guarantee that less than 50 % of people who work in banks, financial institutions, brokers etc have specifically tailored degrees that prime them for their job in the way you suggest is necessary. Many will learn as they go along, undergo training, graduate schemes etc.
Even if they do have degrees like that, do you think any company would let them loose? You literally learn nothing about the job in a degree, you learn almost everything at work. Why do you think recent graduates get crap tasks for a few years? They are learning.

Not having a degree, is not necessarily a barrier to getting in and even if you did have one I guarantee there will be loads of people with unrealtated degrees like English, Geography, History , Sociology etc in there. You doubt that Oakey has a numerate degree, based on how he writes. Good bet you don't work in recruitment then.

My old boss in Engineering didn't have a degree, started at 16, worked his way up to the very top. He learnt on the job, why can't or couldn't Oakey.

You must live in a very sheltered bubble of employment.