v2 G.O.A.T. Round 1 Group 12

Group 11 was won by Usain Bolt who cliamed 51% of the vote, qualifing in second place was Steve Redgrave with 35%.

Today’s group sees football, athletics, boxing and cricket compete for your votes.

We have three participants championed today with articles written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Sugar Ray Leonard- Boxing- Championed by- Rowley

Born in 1956 Ray Leoanrd began his amateur career in 1972 and soon marked himself out as something special, whilst still in his teens Ray already had three National Golden Glves, 2 AAU and the 1975 Pan American Games titles to his name. This form guaranteed Ray a place in America's legendary 1976 Olympic team which won no less than five gold medals. Despite his stellar amateur careeer Ray was not favoured to win gold as his his weight division was Cuban Great Andres Aldama who had scored five straight knockouts on his way to the final. However this mattered little when he met Leonard in the final as Ray beat him 5-0 in an absolute master class. Ray finished out his career with a ledger of an unbelievable 155 wins from 160 fights.

Perhaps unbelievably on the back of his amateur success Ray did not intend to turn pro as he expected lucrative endorsement contracts to come his way. However when these contracts failed to materialise and Ray's father became seriously ill Ray needed to raise some money and quick and the obvious way to achieve this was in taking up one of the numerous offers he had received to turn professional.

Ray's early pro career gave some indication of the greatness to come when he amassed a record of 25-0 in less than three years as a paid fighter. This was enough to earn Ray his first world title shot against the then WBC welterweight champion Wilfredo Benitez. Benitez had made boxing history when beating the excellent Antonio Cervantes to become the youngest world champion ever before moving up to win his second world title at welterweight. At the time of the Leonard fight Benitez had an excellent record of 38-0-1. The fight was something of a tactical masterclass with each fighter displaying sublime defensive skills. However it was to be Ray's superior offensive arsenal which won the day and he stopped Benitez with literally seconds left on the clock.

After a routine defence against Britain's own Dave Boy Green Leonard was to experience his first set back when he met all time great Roberto Duran. Throughout the build up Duran insulted Leonard relentlessly, so much so that Ray that come fight night Ray decided to stand and trade with the fearsom Duran, a decision that cost him a close but justified points loss. Whilst Ray was an intelligent fighter inside the ring he was just as shrewd outside of it and when he heard Duran had been partying a bit too hard on the back of beating him Leonard exercised the rematch clause in his contract and little more than five months later was once again in the ring with Duran. This time Ray made sure he did not brawl with Duran and employed all his ring craft to stay on the outside of the marauding Duran even employing showboating and all manner of tricks to frustrate his opponent. So frustrated did Duran become with Leonard's tactics he quit in the eight round in the infamous "no mas" incident with Duran pretty much turning his back on the fight and declaring he no longer wished to fight Leonard.

Leonard went on to win a title at a second weight when he beat the unbeaten Ayub Kalule for the WBA light middle weight title finishing matters with a peach of a right hand in the ninth round. However Ray was not done with the welterweight division as a new star had emerged on the scene in the shape of the fearson 6ft 1 Tommy Hearns who had amassed a record of 32-0 on his way to the WBA weolterweight championship, of those 32 wins only two opponents had heard the final bell. Hearns was an absolute wrecking ball at the weight as anyone who has seen him starching Pipino Cuevas to win the title can testify.

When the two came together Ray struggled to find the answers to Tommy's size and reach and whilst it had not all been one way traffic Ray was clearly behind after 12 rounds. However fighters do not find themselves involved in greatest of all time debates without having an ability and will to rescue a lost cause and between the 12th and 13th rounds Ray's trainer Angelo Dundee uttered the immortal advice "You're blowing it son, You're blowing it." With these words ringing in his ears Ray exploded into action in the 13th and nearly knocked Tommy through the ropes. Ray knew he had his man now and hit Tommy with everything he had in the 14th and refree Davey Pearl had little choice but to stop the fight and declare Ray the undisputed welterweight champion of the world.

After a couple more low key fihts Ray was to retire on medical grounds through a detached retina but this was to remain a temporary retirment. Legend has it Ray was in attendance with Michael J Fox watching middleweight legend Marvin Hagler defend his title against John Mugabi and he decided when watching Hagler he could beat him and he decided there and then to make a comeback against Haglersome three years after he had last stepped through the ropes. For any fighter to come back after three years is hard, to do it against a fighter as good as Hagler in a division you have never fought in is nigh on unprecedented and when a poll of 50 boxing experts was taken before the fight all but four picked Marvin most by KO such was the size of the task Ray faced.

Much has been written about this fight mostly debating who deserved the decision, for what my view is worth I have always felt the decision in Ray's favour is the correct one however whether you agree with the decision or otherwise one can only marvel at the tactics Ray used in the fight never giving Hagler a stationary target and moving yet still controlling the centre of the ring. Ray was now a three wei8ght world champion. Thsi fight very much represented the peak of Ray's career, he would fight on and would win more titles in more divisions (including winning the WBC supermiddle weight and lightheavyweight belts in the same fight!) but his form after the Hagler fight was never to hit the same heights again.

As anyone who has ever ventured to the boxing boards will know there are something of two camps on their with those who believe old time fighters are superior and those who believe (wrongly I might add) that modern fighters are better. There are few fighters who you will get universal agreement that each and everyone will agree is great and would have been great whatever era they would have found themselves in. Sugar Ray Leonard is one such fighter, he could deliver a punch just as well as he could take one, could fight as well defensively as offensively and could match anyone for heart, speed and guts. To even consider taking the nickname of the great Sugar Ray Robinson you have to be good, to deserve the name you have to be great, Ray Leonard deserved to be called Sugar Ray.

Lionel Messi- Football- Championed by- Chris Wilkinson

It may seem ludicrous to talk about a man aged 25 as the Greatest Of All Time. Lionel Messi could easily have ten more years in football, and with talent like his he would have ten years at the top of the sport.

It's no cliche to suggest we are running out of superlatives to describe the Argentinean's performances. Messi is a magician. Young and old are mesmerised watching him at work, a player who has transcended the cynical modern critics, and brings back a level of excitement to the sport that many lose with age. People will watch Spanish football just to see him play.

Even the egomaniacs like Diego Maradona - “his potential is limitless and I think he’s got everything it takes to become Argentina’s greatest player"" - and Cristiano Ronaldo - ""Messi has his personality and I have mine. He has his game and I have mine. I also play in a big club like him. We are different in every aspect. But right now, he is the best"" - have had to give in to the brilliance of Lionel Messi.

The achievements are constantly stacking up. Leading Barcelona goalscorer of all time, four Champions League top goalscorer awards in a row, a Guinness World Record for most goals in a year (91), four Ballon D'Ors, an Olympic Gold Medal five La Liga titles, three Champions League winner's medals and many more.

In a team game, the contribution of others can be noted as one player achieves greatness. There is no doubting he is playing in one of the greatest teams of all time. But, quite possibly, without Messi they would be nowhere near some of the notable greats.

He is a one man sensation. He not only compares to the solo sports star, he eclipses them.

If he was Sampras he'd have won the French Open and won at least 5 more Australian Open's too.

If he were an opening batsman he'd average at least 70, and he'd be racking up 5 for's like he was owed one each game.

Whilst these one man bands have just an opponent to focus on, Leo Messi is a marked man who has players flying at him all game, a constant focus for every outfield player. He plays with a smile, never deceives the referee and never stops running at players, no matter how hard they hit him.

The one grey spot is the lack of international trophies, which must be a driving force to a man who only has Olympic Gold for his national side. To stick with the tennis comparison, the Argentinean side with their appalling defence, line of poor managers and destructive behind the scenes politics are like forcing Federer out on court but banning him from serving.

In a sport where the collective can restrict the achievements of the individual, Lionel Messi is standing head and shoulders above every man playing, and has the ability that no other man before him has had.

They said he didn't turn up in the big games, he couldn't play against English sides and his heading was weak. He scores a header against Manchester United in the Champions League final to clinch victory in Rome.

His weakness is the international stage. He has 76 caps at 25 years old, and 31 goals. Nearly a goal every two games, some weakness.

A boy who had to have hormone treatment as a teenager to help his growth, who was slated as too injury prone at the age of 18, has become a man that every player watches in a daze and no one wants to face.

Whilst much of this may seem trite, his brilliance is almost overwhelming. I cannot list all his achievements, I cannot describe every moment of majesty which outdoes the last. There is not the space nor time.

He's already eclipsed any individual brilliance of any sports star, and at 25 he has years ahead to widen the gap.

Youtube screams legend with every clip of the maestro.

Even in the modern days where to have been great in yesteryear appears to put a man on a pedastal that stars of today cannot match Messi is talked of as greater. In the world's most popular sport the man is head and shoulders above every competitor.

Jesse Owen- Athletics- Championed by 88chris05

"If you subtract the era in which he competed in, the tensions the world over which defined that era and the fact that he carried the hopes of a whole race on his shoulders, and focus purely on Jesse Owens' achievements as a track and field athlete in purely numbers and medals, then he's automatically a sporting legend. However, when you combine all of those elements together, along with those medals, world records and achievements, then he becomes nothing short of a sporting monolith.

Along with Joe Louis, Owens helped to lead what many observers now call the ""quiet revolution."" In fact, a number of similarities can be drawn between Owens and the 'Brown Bomber'; both were born in 1914, both were born in Alabama and both played a critical role in proving that blacks could not only compete - and win - amongst the best athletes in the world, but they could also do so with dignity.

For Owens, it wasn't about black versus white - he just wanted to win, the same as any sportsman. And win he did. Even 77 years on, his haul of four gold medals from four events at the 1936 Olympics, with Hitler watching from the stands, stands as one of the key moments in sport, a remarkable mix of God-given talent and an ability to cope with huge pressure which, quite rightly, is still spoken of in reverent terms in 2013.

And yet, the signs of greatness had been there before those fantastic four days in Berlin. In compete contrast, it was tucked away in front of only a few spectators that Owens announced himself as one of the sporting phenomenons of the twentieth century, in Michigan, 1935. Forget any half of football you've ever seen, because it was on this afternoon, at the Big Ten Athletics Championships, that Owens produced the most remarkable forty-five minute period ever seen on the sporting stage.

Representing Ohio University, Owens got off to a flyer at the May 25 meet, winning the 100 yard dash in an (equal) world record of 9.4 seconds at 3.15 pm. Ten minutes later, he set a world record outright in the long jump, chalking up a distance of 26 foot 8.25 inches (that's 8 metres and 13 centimetres in our currency!). To put that particular record in to context, it was not broken for another twenty-five years, outstanding in track and field terms, and would still have been good enough to take the bronze medal in the long jump at the London 2012 Olympics. At 3.45 pm he took part in 220 yard dash, winning in a world record of 20.3 seconds, and then at 4.00 pm set a new mark of 22.6 seconds in the 220 yard low hurdles - and, what with the transition between metric and imperial records, Owens had also broken the world records for the shorter 200m sprint and 200m hurdles events in doing so.

Sports historians, then, will always argue whether it was three or five world records which Owens set in the space of forty-five minutes on that spring day of 1935 but, whichever side of the line you fall on, you can't see it as anything other than one of the great sporting moments in history.

If 1935 had been Owens' year of arrival, then 1936 was his signature one. The Berlin Olympics came at a time when American blacks had little to be excited about; lynchings of Afro-Americans were commonplace and often met with not so much as a bat of an eyelid. In many of the USA's (and, in fact, the world's) leading sports, such as track and field, boxing, baseball and golf, opportunities for black competitors were rare, and respect / acknowledgement for their talents even rarer than that. Even their music, as sports writer Harry Mullan once penned, had been ""bastardized by white commercial interests.""

Usually, the chance to compete against the best athletes the world had to offer in 1936 at the Olympic Games would have been a welcome relief for a young Afro-American such as Owens. However, the '36 Games, as much as they were a sports meet, were also an exercise in propaganda, a chance for Hitler to showcase to the watching world that his idea of a superior, Aryan race was quickly becoming an inescapable reality.

Owens wasn't just representing himself, and nor was he representing the USA. He was representing, and carrying the hopes of, a whole race. For every man or woman who'd suffered at the hands of discrimination, for every German Jew who was slowly having their rights to work and rights to property systematically stripped by the Nazi regime, an Owens victory would be a cause for celebration, a moral win which they could all lay some claim to.

It would probably be impossible to understand the pressures Owens must have been feeling on August 3, 1936, when he stepped out in to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin to compete in the heats of the 100m sprint. If he'd had any doubts that the crowd of ove 100,000 spectators, as well as most of the officials, were against him before the race, they will have quicly disappeared immediately afterwards; in that heat, Owens beat his own world record but the German timekeepers refused to ratify it, claiming the time had been achieved with a following wind, despite the stadium flags suggesting nothing of the sort.

However, this cheap piece of skullduggery proved only a temporary setback on Owens' road to ultimate glory. Later that same night, he won the final of the event - and with it his first gold medal - in a time of 10.3 seconds, and this time the officials did acknowledge that the world record had been equalled. The following day, he showed his hand in the 200m by beating the world record in the heats, and took his second gold medal of the Games in the long jump with a leap of 26 feet and 5 inches (8.05 metres) which would stand as an Olympic record until 1960.

With Luz Long being the pre-Games favourite to win that particular event, but now merely a vanquished foe, the world was by now realising that Owens, in a wild turn of events, was becoming the face of Berlin 1936 when, in fact, it had been the organizer's hope that black athletes would be seen as the big joke of them. On August 5, the rest of the field were powerless to prevent Owens winning gold in the 200m in another world record of 20.7 seconds, and he put the final seal on his greatness when helping the American 4x100m relay team win gold - yes, in another world record - on August 6.

In four days, Owens had played an ever-lasting role in bringing about a change of how black athletes were viewed, and it says much about his global impact that, despite Germany eventually going on to top the medals table at the Games, Berlin 1936 is still to this day remembered as Jesse Owens' Olympics, the Games in which Hitler's ideologies were put to rest in emphatic style. Even Owens, looking back, commented, ""For a while at least, I really was the most famous and most talked about man in the world.""

The outbreak of World War II, as it did to so many others, called time on Owens' athletics career, which begs the question - has any other athlete in history done so much to challenge people's perceptions and also set such high standards from a sporting perspective in such a small amount of time?

I can't think of many other athletes from any era or any sport who command my respect the way Jesse Owens does - and what leaves me even more impressed with him is the way he conducted himself as a man. It would have been easy and, let's be frank, pretty understandable for him to have been a surly character, a man who fought back against the discrimination and hardships he suffered with an acid tongue and a confrontational, off-putting demeanour, ala Jack Johnson or a young Muhammad Ali. But Owens conducted himself impeccably, maintaining that sports and politics shouldn't mix; before his death, he even did his best to convince President Jimmy Carter to reverse his decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics of Moscow for that very reason.

No, Owens didn't see himself as a black athlete, he was just an athlete who wanted to win. That he carried the hopes of so many with him, and also that he became an icon for a generation that followed, was merely incidental to him, it seems - but that does nothing at all to diminish how wonderfully well he coped with these pressures, and what a fantastic role model he continues to be, even more than three decades after his death. The word 'champion' fits this man perfectly.

And whenever I think of Owens, I'll always remember one quote which summed up his single-mindedness and dignity; when asked what he thought of Hitler refusing to shake his hand and congratulate him after his four gold medals, Owens simply said, ""Well, I didn't come here to shake hands anyway."""

Sachin Tendulkar - championed by ESPNCricinfo
Sachin Tendulkar has been the most complete batsman of his time, the most prolific runmaker of all time, and arguably the biggest cricket icon the game has ever known. His batting is based on the purest principles: perfect balance, economy of movement, precision in stroke-making, and that intangible quality given only to geniuses: anticipation. If he doesn't have a signature stroke - the upright, back-foot punch comes close - it is because he is equally proficient at each of the full range of orthodox shots (and plenty of improvised ones as well) and can pull them out at will.

There are no apparent weaknesses in Tendulkar's game. He can score all around the wicket, off both front foot and back, can tune his technique to suit every condition, temper his game to suit every situation, and has made runs in all parts of the world in all conditions.

Some of his finest performances have come against Australia, the overwhelmingly dominant team of his era. His century as a 19-year-old on a lightning-fast pitch at the WACA is considered one of the best innings ever to have been played in Australia. A few years later he received the ultimate compliment from the ultimate batsman: Don Bradman confided to his wife that Tendulkar reminded him of himself.

Blessed with the keenest of cricket minds, and armed with a loathing for losing, Tendulkar set about doing what it took to become one of the best batsmen in the world. His greatness was established early: he was only 16 when he made his Test debut. He was hit on the mouth by Waqar Younis but continued to bat, in a blood-soaked shirt. His first Test hundred, a match-saving one at Old Trafford, came when he was 17, and he had 16 Test hundreds before he turned 25. In 2000 he became the first batsman to have scored 50 international hundreds, in 2008 he passed Brian Lara as the leading Test run-scorer, and in the years after, he went past 13,000 Test runs 30,000 international runs, and 50 Test hundreds.

He currently holds the record for most hundreds in both Tests and ODIs - remarkable, considering he didn't score his first ODI hundred till his 79th match. Incredibly, he retains a divine enthusiasm for the game: at 36 years and 306 days he broke a 40-year-old barrier by scoring the first double-century in one-day cricket. In 2012, when just one month short of his 39th birthday, he became the first player to score 100 international centuries, which like Bradman's batting average, could be a mark that lasts for ever. Later that year, though, he announced his retirement from ODIs after a disappointing 18 months in international cricket.

Tendulkar's considerable achievements seem greater still when looked at in the light of the burden of expectations he has had to bear from his adoring but somewhat unreasonable followers, who have been prone to regard anything less than a hundred in each innings as a failure. The aura may have dimmed, if only slightly, as the years on the international circuit have taken their toll on the body, but Tendulkar remains, by a distance, the most worshipped cricketer in the world.

TOO MANY CRICKETERS!!!!

Wow Sugar Ray Leonard versus Jesse Owens thats goin to require some thinking about, its like trying to compare a Ferrari versus a new Kenworth rig.

I have a feeling that the boxing board will be stouting SRL's praises soon.

But its Messi for me. all day long..

super_realist wrote:TOO MANY CRICKETERS!!!!

relax dear SR.. relax..

None are these are worthy contenders to be the GOAT.

Boxing experts will no doubt put me right but I always though Hagler was superior to Leonard.

Owens will be remembered for the 36 Hitler games but Lewis, Bolt and Johnson were better sprinters.

Tendulkar is or was a great batsman, who holds a few longetivity records but IMO, Lara and of course Bradman were better.

I went for Messi. He plays a sport that is played by nearly all and is the best at it.

Mysir
true? have you already voted . the boxing boys will come along and tout SRL, but have a look at Jesse Owens before you vote.

155 wins from 160 fights???

That is absurd!

Gets my vote for sure.

I may change my vote, it depends on the evidence..

but yes i have voted- i wanted to see how it stood...

I have never heard of Messi, but I read the speal and it sounds like he hasnt endured the test of time so cant be considered the best of all time.

legendkillarV2 wrote:155 wins from 160 fights???

That is absurd!

Gets my vote for sure.

That is impressive.

Stella wrote:

Boxing experts will no doubt put me right but I always though Hagler was superior to Leonard.

Was never likely to ignore a challenge like that but not for me he wasn’t. Whilst Hagler is undoubtedly a fine middleweight he is exclusively that, a middleweight. Ray operated with success across a greater number of divisions, comfortably earned to be considered comfortably as great a welterweight as Marvin did at middle and then had the bonus of his exploits at light middle and in ending Marvin’s reign at middle, because as my original tribute alluded to his win over Marvin whilst close was, in the view of many myself included deserved.

Mystir
Whats the score? and dont B...s..t me.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I have never heard of Messi, but I read the speal and it sounds like he hasnt endured the test of time so cant be considered the best of all time.

Aucks seriously dude..Are you time travelling to post..

its 4 to messi, 1 to SRL , the other 2 0

mystiroakey wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: I have never heard of Messi, but I read the speal and it sounds like he hasnt endured the test of time so cant be considered the best of all time.

Aucks seriously dude..Are you time travelling to post..

Honest injun..also never been to a soccer game in my life..

mystiroakey wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: I have never heard of Messi, but I read the speal and it sounds like he hasnt endured the test of time so cant be considered the best of all time.

Aucks seriously dude..Are you time travelling to post..

Soccer is a minority sport in NZ mystir

Do you not get CL matches and PL on telly in NZ??

We get soccer games on telly all day Monday and Tuesday, the only people who watch it are Poms and other immigrants.

or kiwis that like football aucks

mystiroakey wrote:Do you not get CL matches and PL on telly in NZ??

From memory big games are shown live on Sky - but who wants to get up at 4am and watch a match the All Blacks aren't playing in? Most PL matches are played between 1am and 9am Sunday morning NZT, and it's summer time there so if you're up you're probably out enjoying the day.

Cant see many of the boxing board voting for SRL. Tricky one this as none of them are GOAT's.
Think Messi for me, to be as good as he is in a sport played by so many people is amazing. That said he is only really a whisker better than a modern day contemporary in Ronaldo....

Nah we got a rugby channel, plays rugby 24/7, there wouldnt be many Kiwis that would watch soccer when they could watch rugby.

"Cant see many of the boxing board voting for SRL"

from what i have read they love him on there!!

Not as a GOAT Mysti, they love his talent but lower top 10 for most people on there from what I can see. I loved watching im fight when I was a kid, just about the complete fighter really but retired early so fairly short reign at the top. Obviously came back but that was patchy after the Hagler fight.

I used to detest Leonard. But when you look at it objectively there haven't been many who can be rated above him based on talent and ability.

His CV is pretty solid aswell, with some quality names in his win column despite having so few fights.

I still rate Pele and Maradonna above Messi (I have a feeling I won't by the time the little man retires) so I've gone for SRL.

The issue for me today is that none of them are the greatest in their sport, although they all come bloody close.

Sugar Ray Leonard - what a marvelous boxer. In terms of pure skill, perhaps the finest. For me though, he just didn't fight enough and when he did the odds were often in his favour toward the end. It's impossible to place him ahead of the likes of Robinson and Ali.

Jesse Owens - Incredible feats among a period of enormous hostility. Deserves great credit but can he seriously challenge in this tournament? I'm not so sure.

Lionel Messi - Not even the greatest Argentinian - yet. An astoundingly brilliant footballer, but has done so in a team that makes it a lot easier for him. Yet to impress for Argentina, and until such time as he does I find it difficult to propel him to such heady heights. It's like that mate that always beats you at FIFA but only when they are Barcelona or Spain - when they do so with Villareal I'll be willing to dish out more credit.

Sachin Tendulkar - holds just about every record a batsman in cricket can hope to achieve. Incredible longevity and under more pressure than probably any sportsman has ever been. Every time he bats one billion Indians come to a standstill - can you imagine the pressure of that? Just recently, in a domestic game, one fan ran on to the pitch to touch his feet - the kind of reverence only displayed to elders and deities. He is coming to the end now, but to have been so good, for so long, and under so much pressure, Sachin gets my vote - partly due to his own brilliance and partly due to the shortcomings of his rivals in this round.

What a difficult group.

I used to love those fights with Roberto Duran in the eighties.

To me, this is one of the easiest quartets we've ever had to sift. Leonard is one of the all-time greats of boxing - a top 15 pound for pound man all time. Others will place him in the top ten, a very few in the top 5, but almost no-one will place him at the top of their list. We've had the original Sugar Ray here, who rightly progresses to the next round. This one, with his great spell essentially shoehorned into four years, lacks the longevity to join him.

It's my opinion that Tendulkar wasn't even the most effective batsman in his own team much of the time. As an agent of Indian victories, his runs were never as important as Rahul Dravid's, who was the architect of victory after victory, particularly overseas (Adelaide, Rawalpindi, Leeds), in the Indian team's golden era. Yes, one of the best of his era, but the stats don't show Sachin to be much ahead of Lara or Dravid and they show him to be demonstrably behind someone like Kallis. This is without even going near legends of Bradman's stature, so Tendulkar is easily discarded, by me at least.

The big problem with Messi is that he's 25, and great as he is (and he may become even greater), there is no sensible way to assess his career, impact or legacy in the round. It's all speculation. He would still be my second choice based on his exploits to date, but he is a day's march behind....

...Jesse Owens. Five world records in three-quarters of an hour, 4 Olympic Golds, a long jump record that stood for a quarter of a century, Olympic times that would have won medals well into the fifties...the stats and the achievements match anyone's. The impact, though, on a global stage. Equalled by Ali, maybe. No-one else. The practical destruction of the hateful Aryan notion of the genetic supremacy of a single race, achieved in its arch-exponent's backyard. The proof, via his friendship with the excellent German long-jumper, Luz Long, that humanity can rise above such tawdry ideologies.

As I say, not close, in my opinion. Owens wins this one by a street.

oh right i think i have it confused..

SRR is the man and we have allready had him..

what a numpty i am

mystiroakey wrote:oh right i think i have it confused..

SRR is the man and we have allready had him..

what a numpty i am

And not to be confused with Ray charles either...you know what I mean.

captain carrantuohil wrote:To me, this is one of the easiest quartets we've ever had to sift. Leonard is one of the all-time greats of boxing - a top 15 pound for pound man all time. Others will place him in the top ten, a very few in the top 5, but almost no-one will place him at the top of their list. We've had the original Sugar Ray here, who rightly progresses to the next round. This one, with his great spell essentially shoehorned into four years, lacks the longevity to join him.

It's my opinion that Tendulkar wasn't even the most effective batsman in his own team much of the time. As an agent of Indian victories, his runs were never as important as Rahul Dravid's, who was the architect of victory after victory, particularly overseas (Adelaide, Rawalpindi, Leeds), in the Indian team's golden era. Yes, one of the best of his era, but the stats don't show Sachin to be much ahead of Lara or Dravid and they show him to be demonstrably behind someone like Kallis. This is without even going near legends of Bradman's stature, so Tendulkar is easily discarded, by me at least.

The big problem with Messi is that he's 25, and great as he is (and he may become even greater), there is no sensible way to assess his career, impact or legacy in the round. It's all speculation. He would still be my second choice based on his exploits to date, but he is a day's march behind....

...Jesse Owens. Five world records in three-quarters of an hour, 4 Olympic Golds, a long jump record that stood for a quarter of a century, Olympic times that would have won medals well into the fifties...the stats and the achievements match anyone's. The impact, though, on a global stage. Equalled by Ali, maybe. No-one else. The practical destruction of the hateful Aryan notion of the genetic supremacy of a single race, achieved in its arch-exponent's backyard. The proof, via his friendship with the excellent German long-jumper, Luz Long, that humanity can rise above such tawdry ideologies.

As I say, not close, in my opinion. Owens wins this one by a street.

A good point about Dravid, Captain, but you've got the likes of Perth where Tendulkar played a similar role. The two of them were a dynamic duo, certainly. You seem to be basing a lot of your assessment of Sachin on pure statistics, which should obviously be considered, but no mention of a) his surreal longevity and b) the enormous pressure that he performs under and has done for so long? Your choice of Owens is excellently justified, and this isn't an attempt to dissuade you, but I felt you sold Tendulkar a tad short there.

Thought Dravid top-scored in Perth with ninety-odd, fists? My memory is going, so I may well be thinking of a different time or place! Sachin does perform under immense pressure, but I would argue that most Indian cricketers do, particularly if they captain their side as Dravid also did.

Think Sachin's longevity is amazing (although his performances argue that it should have been abridged by now), but it is challenged, although not quite reached, by a number of others, including Border, the aforementioned Dravid, Steve Waugh and the absurdly talented Kallis, who is going to achieve the remarkable feat of being statistically the greatest all-round cricketer in history without anyone noticing. Don't get me wrong, I admire Sachin greatly, but I can't, in all honesty, place him above some of his contemporaries, leave alone cricketing legends of other eras.

This is really tough!

Easy one out of the way first. Tendulkar - a great batsman but I've never been entirely convinced that he's the best batsman of his generation, never mind how he compares against Bradman. Stylistically, great to look at but I think both Lara and Ponting push him close in terms of actual ability.

I'm also going to discount Owens. A great pioneer and a remarkable athlete and a very fine human being. I thnk Owens' great legacy is that he set the standards for others to follow and eventually surpass.

So it comes down to a shoot-out between Messi and Leonard. I do feel I should be showing solidarity with boxing and go for Leonard but I find myself unable to vote against Messi. Leonard is arguably the most rounded and talented fighter of all time (its between him and the other Sugar Ray) but there are some gaps in his career which mean that he can't be considered the greatest fighter of all time. A worthy name for consideration but ultimately not someone who coudl be considered the greatest sportsperson of all time.

Which leaves, Messi. Without any doubt, whatsover, Messi is the best footballer I've seen in my lifetime. At 34, I'm old enough to remember Maradona and Platini and saw lots of Guillit, Van Basten, Baggio, Zidane, Ronaldo (fat version), Figo and I believe that Messi eclipses the lot of them. He also stands head and shoulders above his contemporaries - Cristiano Ronaldo is an increbile athlete and a brutally effective player, but Messi is on a different planet in comparison.

I'm fairly comfortable in saying that Messi is better than Maradona (he does the spectacular stuff, that Maradona did occassionally, every other week and to the point that we take it for granted). I'm less sure when it comes to Pele. I've seen lots of footage of Pele but comparisons back to that era are very difficult. I may have to make a decision later in this tournament.

Well cook is the player that could be challenging his records in the modern era...

And I will back him to get more runs- maybe more centurys..

Sachin is a top 4 batsman GOAT.. but thats all for me..

However in terms of how loved this man is- Its beyond question. He truely is massive in india

I voted for Jesse Owens.

As much as I always loved the ability of Sugar Ray Leonard to fight three different fights usiing a three different style of fighting, he cant compare to the graet man Owens. and it wasnt his fault he went to the olympics in 1936 in a country where Hitler was the boss.

An intriguing group this time - not that strong, every contender has his +s and -s.

Leonard: undoubtedly a great boxer, but equally undoubtedly not the GOAT of his sport (that would be Robinson). Quite a few boxing fans have him 2nd on their all-time list, and I guess being 2nd to Robinson is a bit like being second to Bradman in cricket, so an achievement in itself. I am not as sure as Rowley is that any sport can have better athletes in the 50s than currently (the natural trend is surely upwards) but don't understand enough about boxing to feel I can wade into this debate.

Messi: an absolutely [insert superlative of your choice] footballer. I don't particularly like football at the moment, but some of the things Messi does are just... wow. I genuinely believe in terms of ability on the ball he is the best of all time. However I have a few concerns:
- How good is he, and how good does his team make him look? When given less freedom with Argentina he is considerably less effective. The usual problem with team sports.
- There IS a question of how he performs when on the biggest stage. Not necessarily internationals (the way football is nowadays I would certainly argue the CL is the biggest competition around) but Chelsea have shackled him effectively as well.
- The diving factor: admitedly not as bad as most, but his "look at the ref, then roll around on the floor pretending to be mortally wounded" when Del Horno kicked him (Del Horno rightly sent off) still grates, and I've seen him take a tumble a few times since. Just because it's become the norm doesn't mean I have to like it.
- Is he too current? I tend to agree with those who say that achievements should on the whole stand the test of time, but am willing to make the odd exception.

Tendulkar: no doubt a tremendous batsman, but for me lies behind a few in cricket. Of course he is probably 2nd to the Don in more people's lists than any other player, and as with Leonard being 2nd best to the undisputed GOAT is a feat in itself. However, big cricket fan though I am, I won't be voting for him, and I think we made a mistake in putting Lara through. Concerns include:
- often (somewhat unfairly, it is not his fault that for half of his career his bowlers were fairly ordinary) of producing match-winning innings.
- failed in too many WC knock-out matches to mention (unlike the likes of Ponting say)
- I certainly think his record of centuries will be beaten in the next 20 or 30 years.
- hasn't adapted to the modern game (fielding, DRS) as others have - as such shown a poor example at times to youngsters coming into the Indian side.

Owens: probably the only one of the 4 who you would seriously argue as the GOAT of his field (Messi maybe in time, but not yet). His achievements are simply extraordinary, and the fact that he has fewer titles than the likes of Bolt and Lewis is surely not his fault. My concerns with Owens mirror (for those cricket regulars on here) my concerns about Ranji with cricket. It is mentioned in his write-up that he didn't think sports and politics should meet, and didn't see himself as a black athlete. He is wrong on both points:
- evil people will always use sport for politics. It is therefore crucial that when good can be made from sport, it is. The sporting boycott of South Africa, Andy Flower and Henry Olonga's black armbands in Zimbabwe, the black power salute (particularly relevant), etc. There are numerous examples of people using sport as a platform for good politics, and successfully.
- I actually think that someone in Owens's position (highly successful black athlete) could and should have done more to highlight to inequalities back home. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems he did nothing to end racial segregation back home (which was to continue for decades after his feat, thus making the whole argument that his efforts contributed towards equality and gave hope a bit ridiculous and western rose-tinted), when he was in a position where he could have made a stance. Not doing the right thing can be seen as the wrong thing, and it is for me in this case.

Without those concerns I would probably have gone for Owens, but with them as stated I cannot. Simply put, I view Tommie Smith as a greater athlete than Owens (if not a better one).

So it's Leonard vs Messi for me, and I now await further debate before finalising.

Mike Selig wrote: I am not as sure as Rowley is that any sport can have better athletes in the 50s than currently (the natural trend is surely upwards) .

Just take my word for it Mike.

As many others have said, no real GOAT in this group. That may have actually made it harder!

There are several boxers I'd place ahead of Leonard, so he's ruled out.

Messi is behind Pele, Maradona and Cruyff - at least - so he's out.

Owens is behind several athletes, Bolt included, despite his wonderful achievements.

While Sachin I'd place only behind Bradman. So he gets my vote.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Thought Dravid top-scored in Perth with ninety-odd, fists? My memory is going, so I may well be thinking of a different time or place! Sachin does perform under immense pressure, but I would argue that most Indian cricketers do, particularly if they captain their side as Dravid also did.

Think Sachin's longevity is amazing (although his performances argue that it should have been abridged by now), but it is challenged, although not quite reached, by a number of others, including Border, the aforementioned Dravid, Steve Waugh and the absurdly talented Kallis, who is going to achieve the remarkable feat of being statistically the greatest all-round cricketer in history without anyone noticing. Don't get me wrong, I admire Sachin greatly, but I can't, in all honesty, place him above some of his contemporaries, leave alone cricketing legends of other eras.

I was talking of Sachin's century there - I forget the year, but it was on a lightning fast track of the kind that is supposedly hell for an Indian batsman. It was an innings that only the very finest could play.

For the record, I don't think that Sachin can come anywhere close to winning this thing given that Sir Donald Bradman stands in the way, but for all of the factors stated above he got my vote. Your points are equally valid, though.

Not a great group -

SRL - Perhaps in the top 10 pound-for-pound boxers, but we've already discussed two or three better guys (SRR being The Man).

Tendulkar - Clearly a fabulous batsman, whose career longevity (debut at 17, still playing just short of his 40th birthday) has allowed him to set cumulative records that will take some beating. However there can be only one batsman in the GOAT discussions, and that's Bradman.

Messi - Someone's having a laugh including him. OK, a prolific goal scorer for Barcelona and the most exciting footballer in the game today, but so far his career achievements don't merit consideration alongside Pele or Maradona. Maybe in 10 years time...

Owens - Obviously the one here who most clearly transcended his sport and has a place in history, but as much for the symbolism of his victories in the Olympics in Berlin as for the undoubted excellence of his sprinting and jumping abilities. In a way, we only have a snap-shot of Owens potential greatness, as after 1936 his career was essentially ended both by WW2 curtailing international athletics and by his need to make money (and so losing his official amateur status). How he should be ranked in the pantheon of great athletes (purely on his sporting achievements) is a difficult question - Carl Lewis matched his Olympic achievements in LA and had a longer history, while Michael Johnson and Usain Bolt have been more dominant sprinters, but would any of them have achieved what they did without Owens? I think, almost by default I have to vote for him here, but think we've put through others who are better from other rounds.

1992 fists.

It was a splendid knock.

Messi - Someone's having a laugh including him. OK, a prolific goal scorer for Barcelona and the most exciting footballer in the game today, but so far his career achievements don't merit consideration alongside Pele or Maradona. Maybe in 10 years time...

I think that's a touch harsh. He's more than a goalscorer (look at the number of his assists he has) and he's already widely considered as one of the greatest footballers of all time. In terms of achievement, he's not yet won a World Cup (Maradona didn't win his until he was almost 26) but he's achieved far more at club level than Maradona ever managed - particularly in European competition where Diego only managed a UEFA cup win. Yes, Messi plays in a special team but take him out of that team and they're only half as special.

Maradona never played in a team like the current Barcelona team but the Argentine and Napoli teams he had success with were a lot better than is commonly asserted.

well when we look at messi we can see the difference- forget records for a minute- just watch him play. He does things no one else can or ever could..

That is messis strength and it can be seen. This is in a game that is possibly the most played game in the world..

I have gone for Owens.

SRL - I am no boxing expert (understatement) but am aware of a few considered greater than him, and also take note of some comments so far saying boxing experts would have him low top 10

Messi - someone said "too current" and I agree. He is probably only halfway through his career. The best footballer in the world today but will need to achieve more on the international stage to eventually overtake Pele and Maradona


Tendulkar - an excellent batsman no doubt. Just feel there are doubts about his impact on matches (4th innings chases a particular issue) and is playing on too long which is diminishing his legacy for me. A global icon and worshipped in his own country, but from an outside perspective not in my top 5 batsmen of all time

Owens - personally I have always been fascinated by this guy. His record is excellent, and what he did in the face of evil in 1936 I think is hard to understand today. I think this Owens is an absolutely legendary figure who will be remembered in another 50 years time. Definitely gets my vote.

Think the captain summed up my views. Owens for me, easily. In 10 years time we might look back and say messi, but we can't judge on potential.

I dont completely buy into the potential theory re Messi. Best retired at 27 to all intents and purposes, Messi has done as much for me at the age of 25 to be ranked above Best for instance.

Mike, I'd question your theory that Owens didn't do enough to try and help change the perception of black athletes (or blacks in general) and highlight the equality in America at that time.

What, exactly, would you have had him do?

Unlike a Muhammad Ali or a Tommie Smith, Owens didn't have the wonder of television to give him an audience of hundreds of millions, and while general life for a black man in the USA in the sixties may have been tough and still full of injustices, they were at least afforded respect and opportunities within their sporting fields. In the thirties (so basically, the Owens era), however, this was no given.

Owens, like Joe Louis, preferred to go down the quiet and dignified route, rather than the bombastic, loud approach of a Jack Johnson or Muhammad Ali. It's worth noting that, rather than improve the image and reputation of the black communities in the States, many feel that the antics of Johnson and the young Ali actually had the opposite effect in the eyes of many, rightly or wrongly. Johnson's relationships with white women, outspoken nature and clowning of white opponents cause wide-spread race riots and, in many cases, lynchings of American blacks became commonplace after a publicised Johnson victory, never more so than after he won the 'Fight of the Century' against Jim Jeffries in 1910. As a result of how he comported himself while champion, black fighters, rather than being given more opportunities, were actually denied these chances until Louis emerged more than two decades later.

As Johnson's actions actually ended up holding back 'his people', why should Owens (or Louis, for that matter) be criticised for just wanting to prove that black athletes could compete and succeed with a quiet dignity? I don't think there's anything 'rose tinted' about suggesting that Owens' triumphs at Berlin '36 were a cause for joy amongst all minories who have known a similar struggle in their lives; 77 years on, and it's still spoken of in reverent terms. There was Lewis in '84, Spitz in '72 etc, but I don't think any one single edition of the Olympics has ever been as synonamous with one name as much as Berlin '36 is with Jesse Owens.

As for those saying that he can't be considered as a GOAT candidate within his own sport - I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't wish to waste too much time with the old "well, so and so has run faster, so he's greater" argument, as that really is an appallingly off-base way of judging, but looking at it more objectively I'd say that Owens' four-gold, sprint and jump feat has only been equalled once in the 77 years since. That was by Lewis but, unlike him, Owens has no stench of failed drugs tests hanging over him, and what's more is that Owens competed in an era where he needed to work alongside trying to fit in training and competing. Cinder tracks, plimsoles for footwear etc. Eras are different but Owens was utterly dominant within his own.

As I said in the article, in 1935 Owens jumped 8.13 metres in the long jump. Fast forward 77 years, and that distance would have taken a bronze medal in the London 2012 Olympics. Can anyone else name a single athlete from the thirties (I doubt, in fact, if there were any from the forties and fifties, come to think of it) who produced times / distances which would have got them on the podium in London last year?

There are some truly amazing athletes to pick from in this project, but for me Owens is an absolute giant amongst them.

Best was overrated a little, IMHO. But that's for another day

argument for messi.

football could be considered the ultimate sport. it requies skill, fitness and strengh, it is the highest participation game in the world.. Therefore the best could also be considered the ultimate goat.

Messi is the best today.. He should be better than the older competition due competition and quality rising..

To shine today is harder than shining yester year in this sport.

His skills can be seen seen with the eye..

He has scored the most goals in a season..

Those are his pluses- yes he has negatives- But i am just concentrating on his positives.,.