v2 G.O.A.T. Round 1 Group 12

First topic message reminder :

Group 11 was won by Usain Bolt who cliamed 51% of the vote, qualifing in second place was Steve Redgrave with 35%.

Today’s group sees football, athletics, boxing and cricket compete for your votes.

We have three participants championed today with articles written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Sugar Ray Leonard- Boxing- Championed by- Rowley

Born in 1956 Ray Leoanrd began his amateur career in 1972 and soon marked himself out as something special, whilst still in his teens Ray already had three National Golden Glves, 2 AAU and the 1975 Pan American Games titles to his name. This form guaranteed Ray a place in America's legendary 1976 Olympic team which won no less than five gold medals. Despite his stellar amateur careeer Ray was not favoured to win gold as his his weight division was Cuban Great Andres Aldama who had scored five straight knockouts on his way to the final. However this mattered little when he met Leonard in the final as Ray beat him 5-0 in an absolute master class. Ray finished out his career with a ledger of an unbelievable 155 wins from 160 fights.

Perhaps unbelievably on the back of his amateur success Ray did not intend to turn pro as he expected lucrative endorsement contracts to come his way. However when these contracts failed to materialise and Ray's father became seriously ill Ray needed to raise some money and quick and the obvious way to achieve this was in taking up one of the numerous offers he had received to turn professional.

Ray's early pro career gave some indication of the greatness to come when he amassed a record of 25-0 in less than three years as a paid fighter. This was enough to earn Ray his first world title shot against the then WBC welterweight champion Wilfredo Benitez. Benitez had made boxing history when beating the excellent Antonio Cervantes to become the youngest world champion ever before moving up to win his second world title at welterweight. At the time of the Leonard fight Benitez had an excellent record of 38-0-1. The fight was something of a tactical masterclass with each fighter displaying sublime defensive skills. However it was to be Ray's superior offensive arsenal which won the day and he stopped Benitez with literally seconds left on the clock.

After a routine defence against Britain's own Dave Boy Green Leonard was to experience his first set back when he met all time great Roberto Duran. Throughout the build up Duran insulted Leonard relentlessly, so much so that Ray that come fight night Ray decided to stand and trade with the fearsom Duran, a decision that cost him a close but justified points loss. Whilst Ray was an intelligent fighter inside the ring he was just as shrewd outside of it and when he heard Duran had been partying a bit too hard on the back of beating him Leonard exercised the rematch clause in his contract and little more than five months later was once again in the ring with Duran. This time Ray made sure he did not brawl with Duran and employed all his ring craft to stay on the outside of the marauding Duran even employing showboating and all manner of tricks to frustrate his opponent. So frustrated did Duran become with Leonard's tactics he quit in the eight round in the infamous "no mas" incident with Duran pretty much turning his back on the fight and declaring he no longer wished to fight Leonard.

Leonard went on to win a title at a second weight when he beat the unbeaten Ayub Kalule for the WBA light middle weight title finishing matters with a peach of a right hand in the ninth round. However Ray was not done with the welterweight division as a new star had emerged on the scene in the shape of the fearson 6ft 1 Tommy Hearns who had amassed a record of 32-0 on his way to the WBA weolterweight championship, of those 32 wins only two opponents had heard the final bell. Hearns was an absolute wrecking ball at the weight as anyone who has seen him starching Pipino Cuevas to win the title can testify.

When the two came together Ray struggled to find the answers to Tommy's size and reach and whilst it had not all been one way traffic Ray was clearly behind after 12 rounds. However fighters do not find themselves involved in greatest of all time debates without having an ability and will to rescue a lost cause and between the 12th and 13th rounds Ray's trainer Angelo Dundee uttered the immortal advice "You're blowing it son, You're blowing it." With these words ringing in his ears Ray exploded into action in the 13th and nearly knocked Tommy through the ropes. Ray knew he had his man now and hit Tommy with everything he had in the 14th and refree Davey Pearl had little choice but to stop the fight and declare Ray the undisputed welterweight champion of the world.

After a couple more low key fihts Ray was to retire on medical grounds through a detached retina but this was to remain a temporary retirment. Legend has it Ray was in attendance with Michael J Fox watching middleweight legend Marvin Hagler defend his title against John Mugabi and he decided when watching Hagler he could beat him and he decided there and then to make a comeback against Haglersome three years after he had last stepped through the ropes. For any fighter to come back after three years is hard, to do it against a fighter as good as Hagler in a division you have never fought in is nigh on unprecedented and when a poll of 50 boxing experts was taken before the fight all but four picked Marvin most by KO such was the size of the task Ray faced.

Much has been written about this fight mostly debating who deserved the decision, for what my view is worth I have always felt the decision in Ray's favour is the correct one however whether you agree with the decision or otherwise one can only marvel at the tactics Ray used in the fight never giving Hagler a stationary target and moving yet still controlling the centre of the ring. Ray was now a three wei8ght world champion. Thsi fight very much represented the peak of Ray's career, he would fight on and would win more titles in more divisions (including winning the WBC supermiddle weight and lightheavyweight belts in the same fight!) but his form after the Hagler fight was never to hit the same heights again.

As anyone who has ever ventured to the boxing boards will know there are something of two camps on their with those who believe old time fighters are superior and those who believe (wrongly I might add) that modern fighters are better. There are few fighters who you will get universal agreement that each and everyone will agree is great and would have been great whatever era they would have found themselves in. Sugar Ray Leonard is one such fighter, he could deliver a punch just as well as he could take one, could fight as well defensively as offensively and could match anyone for heart, speed and guts. To even consider taking the nickname of the great Sugar Ray Robinson you have to be good, to deserve the name you have to be great, Ray Leonard deserved to be called Sugar Ray.

Lionel Messi- Football- Championed by- Chris Wilkinson

It may seem ludicrous to talk about a man aged 25 as the Greatest Of All Time. Lionel Messi could easily have ten more years in football, and with talent like his he would have ten years at the top of the sport.

It's no cliche to suggest we are running out of superlatives to describe the Argentinean's performances. Messi is a magician. Young and old are mesmerised watching him at work, a player who has transcended the cynical modern critics, and brings back a level of excitement to the sport that many lose with age. People will watch Spanish football just to see him play.

Even the egomaniacs like Diego Maradona - “his potential is limitless and I think he’s got everything it takes to become Argentina’s greatest player"" - and Cristiano Ronaldo - ""Messi has his personality and I have mine. He has his game and I have mine. I also play in a big club like him. We are different in every aspect. But right now, he is the best"" - have had to give in to the brilliance of Lionel Messi.

The achievements are constantly stacking up. Leading Barcelona goalscorer of all time, four Champions League top goalscorer awards in a row, a Guinness World Record for most goals in a year (91), four Ballon D'Ors, an Olympic Gold Medal five La Liga titles, three Champions League winner's medals and many more.

In a team game, the contribution of others can be noted as one player achieves greatness. There is no doubting he is playing in one of the greatest teams of all time. But, quite possibly, without Messi they would be nowhere near some of the notable greats.

He is a one man sensation. He not only compares to the solo sports star, he eclipses them.

If he was Sampras he'd have won the French Open and won at least 5 more Australian Open's too.

If he were an opening batsman he'd average at least 70, and he'd be racking up 5 for's like he was owed one each game.

Whilst these one man bands have just an opponent to focus on, Leo Messi is a marked man who has players flying at him all game, a constant focus for every outfield player. He plays with a smile, never deceives the referee and never stops running at players, no matter how hard they hit him.

The one grey spot is the lack of international trophies, which must be a driving force to a man who only has Olympic Gold for his national side. To stick with the tennis comparison, the Argentinean side with their appalling defence, line of poor managers and destructive behind the scenes politics are like forcing Federer out on court but banning him from serving.

In a sport where the collective can restrict the achievements of the individual, Lionel Messi is standing head and shoulders above every man playing, and has the ability that no other man before him has had.

They said he didn't turn up in the big games, he couldn't play against English sides and his heading was weak. He scores a header against Manchester United in the Champions League final to clinch victory in Rome.

His weakness is the international stage. He has 76 caps at 25 years old, and 31 goals. Nearly a goal every two games, some weakness.

A boy who had to have hormone treatment as a teenager to help his growth, who was slated as too injury prone at the age of 18, has become a man that every player watches in a daze and no one wants to face.

Whilst much of this may seem trite, his brilliance is almost overwhelming. I cannot list all his achievements, I cannot describe every moment of majesty which outdoes the last. There is not the space nor time.

He's already eclipsed any individual brilliance of any sports star, and at 25 he has years ahead to widen the gap.

Youtube screams legend with every clip of the maestro.

Even in the modern days where to have been great in yesteryear appears to put a man on a pedastal that stars of today cannot match Messi is talked of as greater. In the world's most popular sport the man is head and shoulders above every competitor.

Jesse Owen- Athletics- Championed by 88chris05

"If you subtract the era in which he competed in, the tensions the world over which defined that era and the fact that he carried the hopes of a whole race on his shoulders, and focus purely on Jesse Owens' achievements as a track and field athlete in purely numbers and medals, then he's automatically a sporting legend. However, when you combine all of those elements together, along with those medals, world records and achievements, then he becomes nothing short of a sporting monolith.

Along with Joe Louis, Owens helped to lead what many observers now call the ""quiet revolution."" In fact, a number of similarities can be drawn between Owens and the 'Brown Bomber'; both were born in 1914, both were born in Alabama and both played a critical role in proving that blacks could not only compete - and win - amongst the best athletes in the world, but they could also do so with dignity.

For Owens, it wasn't about black versus white - he just wanted to win, the same as any sportsman. And win he did. Even 77 years on, his haul of four gold medals from four events at the 1936 Olympics, with Hitler watching from the stands, stands as one of the key moments in sport, a remarkable mix of God-given talent and an ability to cope with huge pressure which, quite rightly, is still spoken of in reverent terms in 2013.

And yet, the signs of greatness had been there before those fantastic four days in Berlin. In compete contrast, it was tucked away in front of only a few spectators that Owens announced himself as one of the sporting phenomenons of the twentieth century, in Michigan, 1935. Forget any half of football you've ever seen, because it was on this afternoon, at the Big Ten Athletics Championships, that Owens produced the most remarkable forty-five minute period ever seen on the sporting stage.

Representing Ohio University, Owens got off to a flyer at the May 25 meet, winning the 100 yard dash in an (equal) world record of 9.4 seconds at 3.15 pm. Ten minutes later, he set a world record outright in the long jump, chalking up a distance of 26 foot 8.25 inches (that's 8 metres and 13 centimetres in our currency!). To put that particular record in to context, it was not broken for another twenty-five years, outstanding in track and field terms, and would still have been good enough to take the bronze medal in the long jump at the London 2012 Olympics. At 3.45 pm he took part in 220 yard dash, winning in a world record of 20.3 seconds, and then at 4.00 pm set a new mark of 22.6 seconds in the 220 yard low hurdles - and, what with the transition between metric and imperial records, Owens had also broken the world records for the shorter 200m sprint and 200m hurdles events in doing so.

Sports historians, then, will always argue whether it was three or five world records which Owens set in the space of forty-five minutes on that spring day of 1935 but, whichever side of the line you fall on, you can't see it as anything other than one of the great sporting moments in history.

If 1935 had been Owens' year of arrival, then 1936 was his signature one. The Berlin Olympics came at a time when American blacks had little to be excited about; lynchings of Afro-Americans were commonplace and often met with not so much as a bat of an eyelid. In many of the USA's (and, in fact, the world's) leading sports, such as track and field, boxing, baseball and golf, opportunities for black competitors were rare, and respect / acknowledgement for their talents even rarer than that. Even their music, as sports writer Harry Mullan once penned, had been ""bastardized by white commercial interests.""

Usually, the chance to compete against the best athletes the world had to offer in 1936 at the Olympic Games would have been a welcome relief for a young Afro-American such as Owens. However, the '36 Games, as much as they were a sports meet, were also an exercise in propaganda, a chance for Hitler to showcase to the watching world that his idea of a superior, Aryan race was quickly becoming an inescapable reality.

Owens wasn't just representing himself, and nor was he representing the USA. He was representing, and carrying the hopes of, a whole race. For every man or woman who'd suffered at the hands of discrimination, for every German Jew who was slowly having their rights to work and rights to property systematically stripped by the Nazi regime, an Owens victory would be a cause for celebration, a moral win which they could all lay some claim to.

It would probably be impossible to understand the pressures Owens must have been feeling on August 3, 1936, when he stepped out in to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin to compete in the heats of the 100m sprint. If he'd had any doubts that the crowd of ove 100,000 spectators, as well as most of the officials, were against him before the race, they will have quicly disappeared immediately afterwards; in that heat, Owens beat his own world record but the German timekeepers refused to ratify it, claiming the time had been achieved with a following wind, despite the stadium flags suggesting nothing of the sort.

However, this cheap piece of skullduggery proved only a temporary setback on Owens' road to ultimate glory. Later that same night, he won the final of the event - and with it his first gold medal - in a time of 10.3 seconds, and this time the officials did acknowledge that the world record had been equalled. The following day, he showed his hand in the 200m by beating the world record in the heats, and took his second gold medal of the Games in the long jump with a leap of 26 feet and 5 inches (8.05 metres) which would stand as an Olympic record until 1960.

With Luz Long being the pre-Games favourite to win that particular event, but now merely a vanquished foe, the world was by now realising that Owens, in a wild turn of events, was becoming the face of Berlin 1936 when, in fact, it had been the organizer's hope that black athletes would be seen as the big joke of them. On August 5, the rest of the field were powerless to prevent Owens winning gold in the 200m in another world record of 20.7 seconds, and he put the final seal on his greatness when helping the American 4x100m relay team win gold - yes, in another world record - on August 6.

In four days, Owens had played an ever-lasting role in bringing about a change of how black athletes were viewed, and it says much about his global impact that, despite Germany eventually going on to top the medals table at the Games, Berlin 1936 is still to this day remembered as Jesse Owens' Olympics, the Games in which Hitler's ideologies were put to rest in emphatic style. Even Owens, looking back, commented, ""For a while at least, I really was the most famous and most talked about man in the world.""

The outbreak of World War II, as it did to so many others, called time on Owens' athletics career, which begs the question - has any other athlete in history done so much to challenge people's perceptions and also set such high standards from a sporting perspective in such a small amount of time?

I can't think of many other athletes from any era or any sport who command my respect the way Jesse Owens does - and what leaves me even more impressed with him is the way he conducted himself as a man. It would have been easy and, let's be frank, pretty understandable for him to have been a surly character, a man who fought back against the discrimination and hardships he suffered with an acid tongue and a confrontational, off-putting demeanour, ala Jack Johnson or a young Muhammad Ali. But Owens conducted himself impeccably, maintaining that sports and politics shouldn't mix; before his death, he even did his best to convince President Jimmy Carter to reverse his decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics of Moscow for that very reason.

No, Owens didn't see himself as a black athlete, he was just an athlete who wanted to win. That he carried the hopes of so many with him, and also that he became an icon for a generation that followed, was merely incidental to him, it seems - but that does nothing at all to diminish how wonderfully well he coped with these pressures, and what a fantastic role model he continues to be, even more than three decades after his death. The word 'champion' fits this man perfectly.

And whenever I think of Owens, I'll always remember one quote which summed up his single-mindedness and dignity; when asked what he thought of Hitler refusing to shake his hand and congratulate him after his four gold medals, Owens simply said, ""Well, I didn't come here to shake hands anyway."""

Sachin Tendulkar - championed by ESPNCricinfo
Sachin Tendulkar has been the most complete batsman of his time, the most prolific runmaker of all time, and arguably the biggest cricket icon the game has ever known. His batting is based on the purest principles: perfect balance, economy of movement, precision in stroke-making, and that intangible quality given only to geniuses: anticipation. If he doesn't have a signature stroke - the upright, back-foot punch comes close - it is because he is equally proficient at each of the full range of orthodox shots (and plenty of improvised ones as well) and can pull them out at will.

There are no apparent weaknesses in Tendulkar's game. He can score all around the wicket, off both front foot and back, can tune his technique to suit every condition, temper his game to suit every situation, and has made runs in all parts of the world in all conditions.

Some of his finest performances have come against Australia, the overwhelmingly dominant team of his era. His century as a 19-year-old on a lightning-fast pitch at the WACA is considered one of the best innings ever to have been played in Australia. A few years later he received the ultimate compliment from the ultimate batsman: Don Bradman confided to his wife that Tendulkar reminded him of himself.

Blessed with the keenest of cricket minds, and armed with a loathing for losing, Tendulkar set about doing what it took to become one of the best batsmen in the world. His greatness was established early: he was only 16 when he made his Test debut. He was hit on the mouth by Waqar Younis but continued to bat, in a blood-soaked shirt. His first Test hundred, a match-saving one at Old Trafford, came when he was 17, and he had 16 Test hundreds before he turned 25. In 2000 he became the first batsman to have scored 50 international hundreds, in 2008 he passed Brian Lara as the leading Test run-scorer, and in the years after, he went past 13,000 Test runs 30,000 international runs, and 50 Test hundreds.

He currently holds the record for most hundreds in both Tests and ODIs - remarkable, considering he didn't score his first ODI hundred till his 79th match. Incredibly, he retains a divine enthusiasm for the game: at 36 years and 306 days he broke a 40-year-old barrier by scoring the first double-century in one-day cricket. In 2012, when just one month short of his 39th birthday, he became the first player to score 100 international centuries, which like Bradman's batting average, could be a mark that lasts for ever. Later that year, though, he announced his retirement from ODIs after a disappointing 18 months in international cricket.

Tendulkar's considerable achievements seem greater still when looked at in the light of the burden of expectations he has had to bear from his adoring but somewhat unreasonable followers, who have been prone to regard anything less than a hundred in each innings as a failure. The aura may have dimmed, if only slightly, as the years on the international circuit have taken their toll on the body, but Tendulkar remains, by a distance, the most worshipped cricketer in the world.

Voted for Jesse Owen in the end, pretty close between him and Messi though.

Barcelonas sole reason for paying for his treatment wasn't to help him but rather to benefit in a sporting sense at which point he shouldn't be able to play.

If he'd paid for it himself would it be the same issue?

Paul Scholes still uses an inhaler by the way

I am not gonna hold it against messi tbh.. At the end of the day- this must have been within the rules..

But it does seem abit sick at the same time

Imperial Ghosty wrote:In my opinion no one who has used human growth hormones should be able to compete in any sport professionally.

Ghosty, that is extremely harsh. Being born with a condition that requires treatment shouldn't rule you out of professional sport. If he had not undergone treatment his health could have been compromised for the rest of his life. Where do you draw the line as well? Just at Growth Hormone? Steroids are used to treat a variety of ailments. Does this rule them out?

Inhalers aren't banned under WADA rules while HGH is.

The quality of mercy is extremely strained, it would appear, ghosty! Thank God you don't run the country. I have visions of gibbets at every crossroads, chaingangs at every roadside and every child being force-fed castor oil daily.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Inhalers aren't banned under WADA rules while HGH is.

Yes, but only certain substances. There are plenty of other asthma medications that are on the WADA banned substances list. If a child took one of these to treat their asthma, would that rule them out of professional sport for the rest of their lives?

No because WADA rules are quite clear on such things as they are on HGH, under no circumstances can it be used.

I don't hold the view that messi is better than pele or maradona. We live in an age where the rules favour the attacking players. Had messi had some of the assaults that pele and maradona faced I doubt he would have been able to score as many goals. Also the ball back in peles day was an awful lot less skill friendly. This makes comparisons across the era's difficult. If messi can produce at a world cup and help Argentina get close to a title and me to a lesser team than barca and succeed then he has the potential to surpass the greatest of the game. But until then I feel he remains a little too much in his comfort zone.

messi wouldnt have succeded back in that day- even with his hormnones he would have been to small. The lad cant do it against PL opposition on the whole so he certainly couldnt have competed back in the day..

However the game is more skillfull today and he can do stuff noone can or could have done!!

guildfordbat wrote:First off, excellent write ups today from Jeff and the two Chrises.

There is an extremely strong case for Messi being the greatest footballer in the world today - he's certainly a notch above those I regularly see at Woking FC on a Saturday afternoon! However, I feel it's far too premature to say Of All Time. That was being said of Georgie Best when he was the same age as Messi is now and look how that ended up.

I suspect this thread hasn't done justice to the following and influence that Tendulkar has in India. However, great batman that he undoubtedly is / was (?), he wouldn't be an automatic pick for my All Time World XI.

Jeff throws some very good punches on behalf of Sugar Ray Leonard and brings out a stunning record that I hadn't properly appreciated. I do though happily remember watching (on terrestial tv) some of his fights in the early '80s. Jeff has shown that Leonard merits the name Sugar Ray. However, I'm not sure that even Jeff would claim that the later version has overtaken the original. I still hope he gets through.

With so much discussion understandably and deservedly devoted to Owens' political and cultural significance, I'm not sure we've paid enough attention to his athletic prowess and triumphs. Yes, those four golds were subsequently equalled by Carl Lewis. However, Owens was first and will remain so for the rest of time. Being first carries a lot of weight for me and will probably clinch it.

Good Point:

Down here in New Zealand we have a sport called mountaineering,one of our best mountaineers was a guy called Edmund Hillary, not only was he the first man to get to the top of Everest, but more importantly he was the first to follow it up by being the first to get to the bottom. Yet he wouldnt be in the first thousand to qualify for consideration as a G.O.A.T.

did he jump off of something..

I dont undersatnd what you mean by getting to the bottom.. Noone cares about that do they!

its all about climbing to the top? what am i missing aucks?

What do they say on the use in childhood to treat Growth Hormone deficiency?

Prednisolone is used to treat asthma, yet it's on the WADA banned list, it can not be taken under any circumstances, as far as I'm aware. If a child had taken this, does that rule them out?

Mystir I think he meant that it was just as big an achievement to make it back down as so many people die even after they have made it up

mystiroakey wrote:did he jump off of something..

I dont undersatnd what you mean by getting to the bottom.. Noone cares about that do they!

its all about climbing to the top? what am i missing aucks?

Mystir, if you think about it its very important,,,theres no point being the best dead mountaineer.

your not banned if you took them as a child- only whilst competing golden

aucklandlaurie wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:did he jump off of something..

I dont undersatnd what you mean by getting to the bottom.. Noone cares about that do they!

its all about climbing to the top? what am i missing aucks?

Mystir, if you think about it its very important,,,theres no point being the best dead mountaineer.

thats not good dude.. rule me out of that one!

Champions League finals against Manchester United have seen him do it against Premier League opposition, and he made Arsenal look a little silly too.

I would counter the Pele got smashed about argument with the theory that since then tackling has become far more of a skill. The defender who used tackling as an art is a man Pele respects for his ability and considers one of the toughest he ever played against, if not the toughest. That was Bobby Moore. Teams probably focus their attention on Messi just as much as they did Pele, but now there is far more tactical nous in what they do.

mystiroakey wrote:your not banned if you took them as a child- only whilst competing golden

Do WADA specify this? If so, then the hormone treatment shouldn't be a problem.

if your not a sportsman at the time you can take what you want.. once your a pro or high level am you cant..

the problem in messi case is clear.. if he wasnt signed to a club as a child and took the hormons there wouldnt be a problem.. but barcelona specifically put him on the drug as part of the contract- This is clearly a massive grey area

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:Champions League finals against Manchester United have seen him do it against Premier League opposition, and he made Arsenal look a little silly too.

I would counter the Pele got smashed about argument with the theory that since then tackling has become far more of a skill. The defender who used tackling as an art is a man Pele respects for his ability and considers one of the toughest he ever played against, if not the toughest. That was Bobby Moore. Teams probably focus their attention on Messi just as much as they did Pele, but now there is far more tactical nous in what they do.

Chris wilkerson

Since I had never heard of this Messi guy until about 24 hours ago, tell me is he only a club level player or does he play Internationals as well?

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:Champions League finals against Manchester United have seen him do it against Premier League opposition, and he made Arsenal look a little silly too.

I would counter the Pele got smashed about argument with the theory that since then tackling has become far more of a skill. The defender who used tackling as an art is a man Pele respects for his ability and considers one of the toughest he ever played against, if not the toughest. That was Bobby Moore. Teams probably focus their attention on Messi just as much as they did Pele, but now there is far more tactical nous in what they do.

yep he performed v arsernal- however there are much more a la liga styled team..

V Man united he did ok.. The other 12 or so games he has played v the prem havent been his best

Are children on growth hormone program's excluded from competing on any sports at junior level ? Be that athletics or football or whatever ?

i doubt it diggs.. but it raises a question..

mystiroakey wrote:the problem in messi case is clear.. if he wasnt signed to a club as a child and took the hormons there wouldnt be a problem.. but barcelona specifically put him on the drug as part of the contract- This is clearly a massive grey area

His parents couldn't afford the treatment, Barcelona offered to pay as long as he moved to Spain to play for the youth team. He was too young to sign a contract. He signed a napkin, I doubt any court would find this contractually binding. No grey area for me.

golden if he didnt partake in the hormone program he wouldnt have been signed...

the grey area is the fact that a condition of being signed is to be put on hormones..

its very grey IMO

The hormone treatment was undertaken to improve his quality of life. Barcelona took a punt on a 11 year old boy, paying for the treatment he needed, with the off chance that he became worth the investment. He hadn't signed as of yet, he could have went to England like Pique or Fabregas did as a youngster and Barca would have got nothing.

well if that was the case then fine. if it was as ghostly is suggesting then its grey imo..

not sure what to belive yet.. may look it up!

Re. hGH, it has patently got long term benefits to musculature and skeletal development unlike, say, prednisolone. I have no idea what WADA's stance on this is but I doubt you can equate hGH with many other drugs specifically because of this.

In Messi's case it's obviously a done deal but I don't really see the problem in saying to someone in the future "Sorry, you had to take hGH for medical reasons as a child and I'm afraid that means you can't compete at top level amateur or professional sport. Just the way it is I'm afraid so you'll have to go find a different career path".

I'm not disputing the benefits of HGH over any other drug. Someone brought up the point that it's on the WADA banned list and so anyone who has used it, even as a child, should be unable to compete. I used prednisolone as an example of another drug that's on the list that may be administered to children, and was asking if they should be banned as well.

It seems a bit harsh, saying to a someone that they are not allowed to compete, purely because the had a very treatable condition as a child and as they or their parents decided on the treatment to improve their quality of life.

Definitely harsh and I'm not sure I'd really advocate it.

mystiroakey wrote:

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:Champions League finals against Manchester United have seen him do it against Premier League opposition, and he made Arsenal look a little silly too.

I would counter the Pele got smashed about argument with the theory that since then tackling has become far more of a skill. The defender who used tackling as an art is a man Pele respects for his ability and considers one of the toughest he ever played against, if not the toughest. That was Bobby Moore. Teams probably focus their attention on Messi just as much as they did Pele, but now there is far more tactical nous in what they do.

yep he performed v arsernal- however there are much more a la liga styled team..

V Man united he did ok.. The other 12 or so games he has played v the prem havent been his best

Very much a little Englander/premier league centric argument and one that I just don't buy. It assumes that the Premier League is the highest standard of league in the world but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary - witness Chelsea and Man City's struggles in the Chamopions League.

He's had less success against Chelsea but then Chelsea have sat deep and relied on some great last gasp defending and a lot of luck everytime they've played Barcelona over the last few years. This year, Celtic showed that a lesser team could compete with Barcelona with the right tactics and attitiude and a bit of luck, provided that Barcelona aren't on top of their game. It's not a Messi failing, it just highlights that he's not a god and that Barcelona aren't invincible. Maradona, Cruyff and Pele could all be nullified too.

Messi has consistently performed exceptionally and scored goals at the highest level. Just look at his record in the Classicos. There's no tougher match for Barcelona and he regularly makes the difference in these games with goals and assists.

Fly i watched every one of them games..

I also rate messi as one of the best ever players. If not the best ever and have been arguing for him here- But i am not gonna be so narrow minded as to not bring up his potential flaws!!

Howsever and possibly mainly due to his size he has shown to be less effective against a harder style of play..

this is not a little englander view- this is not a PL centric view- this is the fact from what i have witnessed..

" It assumes that the Premier League is the highest standard of league in the world but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary"

it truely truely doesnt and wasnt my intention- You are reading into stuff that isnt being written.

mystiroakey wrote:Fly i watched every one of them games..

I also rate messi as one of the best ever players. If not the best ever and have been arguing for him here- But i am not gonna be so narrow minded as to not bring up his potential flaws!!

Howsever and possibly mainly due to his size he has shown to be less effective against a harder style of play..

this is not a little englander view- this is not a PL centric view- this is the fact from what i have witnessed..

" It assumes that the Premier League is the highest standard of league in the world but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary"

it truely truely doesnt and wasnt my intention- You are reading into stuff that isnt being written.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted. I agree that Messi and Barcelona have flaws - nobody is perfect. I guess what I was trying to say is that if Messi and Barcelona are not on top of their game, it is possible to nullify them (although it often takes a fair bit of luck and a Herculean effort) but that EPL teams don't have the monopoly on this.

Again, apologies if I came across as a grumpy git!

Thats all right.. maybe i was being overly sensitive

Its just that and especially when we have the ronaldo v messi debate.. At least us in the UK have seen Ronaldo shine against all types of opposition..

Many great players have an issue against certain opposition or certain conditions. Look at golf, tennis, rugby. You will find that many arnt that adapted to play against others .. even though overall they may be better.. If messi played in the PL i am sure he would become a true great to the 'little englander'.. But for now he hasnt quite reached the level of his domestic(not that we should consider that a pinnacle to him). And maybe we could also question his international form. Even though that has been improving alot...

Messi does stuff with the ball that i have never seen anyone else do, that is one of the reasons i rate him so highly- His skill level especially to us this side of the english channel is out of this world..

No Group 13 today?

Not seen MtotheC about since yesterday as yet, I'll hold fire until lunchtime and then post up the group if not.

I would imagine MtotheC is just busy.

Not a problem obviously, but I know a lot of us look forward to these groups being posted every morning

Me too!