v2 G.O.A.T. Round 1 Group 12

First topic message reminder :

Group 11 was won by Usain Bolt who cliamed 51% of the vote, qualifing in second place was Steve Redgrave with 35%.

Today’s group sees football, athletics, boxing and cricket compete for your votes.

We have three participants championed today with articles written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Sugar Ray Leonard- Boxing- Championed by- Rowley

Born in 1956 Ray Leoanrd began his amateur career in 1972 and soon marked himself out as something special, whilst still in his teens Ray already had three National Golden Glves, 2 AAU and the 1975 Pan American Games titles to his name. This form guaranteed Ray a place in America's legendary 1976 Olympic team which won no less than five gold medals. Despite his stellar amateur careeer Ray was not favoured to win gold as his his weight division was Cuban Great Andres Aldama who had scored five straight knockouts on his way to the final. However this mattered little when he met Leonard in the final as Ray beat him 5-0 in an absolute master class. Ray finished out his career with a ledger of an unbelievable 155 wins from 160 fights.

Perhaps unbelievably on the back of his amateur success Ray did not intend to turn pro as he expected lucrative endorsement contracts to come his way. However when these contracts failed to materialise and Ray's father became seriously ill Ray needed to raise some money and quick and the obvious way to achieve this was in taking up one of the numerous offers he had received to turn professional.

Ray's early pro career gave some indication of the greatness to come when he amassed a record of 25-0 in less than three years as a paid fighter. This was enough to earn Ray his first world title shot against the then WBC welterweight champion Wilfredo Benitez. Benitez had made boxing history when beating the excellent Antonio Cervantes to become the youngest world champion ever before moving up to win his second world title at welterweight. At the time of the Leonard fight Benitez had an excellent record of 38-0-1. The fight was something of a tactical masterclass with each fighter displaying sublime defensive skills. However it was to be Ray's superior offensive arsenal which won the day and he stopped Benitez with literally seconds left on the clock.

After a routine defence against Britain's own Dave Boy Green Leonard was to experience his first set back when he met all time great Roberto Duran. Throughout the build up Duran insulted Leonard relentlessly, so much so that Ray that come fight night Ray decided to stand and trade with the fearsom Duran, a decision that cost him a close but justified points loss. Whilst Ray was an intelligent fighter inside the ring he was just as shrewd outside of it and when he heard Duran had been partying a bit too hard on the back of beating him Leonard exercised the rematch clause in his contract and little more than five months later was once again in the ring with Duran. This time Ray made sure he did not brawl with Duran and employed all his ring craft to stay on the outside of the marauding Duran even employing showboating and all manner of tricks to frustrate his opponent. So frustrated did Duran become with Leonard's tactics he quit in the eight round in the infamous "no mas" incident with Duran pretty much turning his back on the fight and declaring he no longer wished to fight Leonard.

Leonard went on to win a title at a second weight when he beat the unbeaten Ayub Kalule for the WBA light middle weight title finishing matters with a peach of a right hand in the ninth round. However Ray was not done with the welterweight division as a new star had emerged on the scene in the shape of the fearson 6ft 1 Tommy Hearns who had amassed a record of 32-0 on his way to the WBA weolterweight championship, of those 32 wins only two opponents had heard the final bell. Hearns was an absolute wrecking ball at the weight as anyone who has seen him starching Pipino Cuevas to win the title can testify.

When the two came together Ray struggled to find the answers to Tommy's size and reach and whilst it had not all been one way traffic Ray was clearly behind after 12 rounds. However fighters do not find themselves involved in greatest of all time debates without having an ability and will to rescue a lost cause and between the 12th and 13th rounds Ray's trainer Angelo Dundee uttered the immortal advice "You're blowing it son, You're blowing it." With these words ringing in his ears Ray exploded into action in the 13th and nearly knocked Tommy through the ropes. Ray knew he had his man now and hit Tommy with everything he had in the 14th and refree Davey Pearl had little choice but to stop the fight and declare Ray the undisputed welterweight champion of the world.

After a couple more low key fihts Ray was to retire on medical grounds through a detached retina but this was to remain a temporary retirment. Legend has it Ray was in attendance with Michael J Fox watching middleweight legend Marvin Hagler defend his title against John Mugabi and he decided when watching Hagler he could beat him and he decided there and then to make a comeback against Haglersome three years after he had last stepped through the ropes. For any fighter to come back after three years is hard, to do it against a fighter as good as Hagler in a division you have never fought in is nigh on unprecedented and when a poll of 50 boxing experts was taken before the fight all but four picked Marvin most by KO such was the size of the task Ray faced.

Much has been written about this fight mostly debating who deserved the decision, for what my view is worth I have always felt the decision in Ray's favour is the correct one however whether you agree with the decision or otherwise one can only marvel at the tactics Ray used in the fight never giving Hagler a stationary target and moving yet still controlling the centre of the ring. Ray was now a three wei8ght world champion. Thsi fight very much represented the peak of Ray's career, he would fight on and would win more titles in more divisions (including winning the WBC supermiddle weight and lightheavyweight belts in the same fight!) but his form after the Hagler fight was never to hit the same heights again.

As anyone who has ever ventured to the boxing boards will know there are something of two camps on their with those who believe old time fighters are superior and those who believe (wrongly I might add) that modern fighters are better. There are few fighters who you will get universal agreement that each and everyone will agree is great and would have been great whatever era they would have found themselves in. Sugar Ray Leonard is one such fighter, he could deliver a punch just as well as he could take one, could fight as well defensively as offensively and could match anyone for heart, speed and guts. To even consider taking the nickname of the great Sugar Ray Robinson you have to be good, to deserve the name you have to be great, Ray Leonard deserved to be called Sugar Ray.

Lionel Messi- Football- Championed by- Chris Wilkinson

It may seem ludicrous to talk about a man aged 25 as the Greatest Of All Time. Lionel Messi could easily have ten more years in football, and with talent like his he would have ten years at the top of the sport.

It's no cliche to suggest we are running out of superlatives to describe the Argentinean's performances. Messi is a magician. Young and old are mesmerised watching him at work, a player who has transcended the cynical modern critics, and brings back a level of excitement to the sport that many lose with age. People will watch Spanish football just to see him play.

Even the egomaniacs like Diego Maradona - “his potential is limitless and I think he’s got everything it takes to become Argentina’s greatest player"" - and Cristiano Ronaldo - ""Messi has his personality and I have mine. He has his game and I have mine. I also play in a big club like him. We are different in every aspect. But right now, he is the best"" - have had to give in to the brilliance of Lionel Messi.

The achievements are constantly stacking up. Leading Barcelona goalscorer of all time, four Champions League top goalscorer awards in a row, a Guinness World Record for most goals in a year (91), four Ballon D'Ors, an Olympic Gold Medal five La Liga titles, three Champions League winner's medals and many more.

In a team game, the contribution of others can be noted as one player achieves greatness. There is no doubting he is playing in one of the greatest teams of all time. But, quite possibly, without Messi they would be nowhere near some of the notable greats.

He is a one man sensation. He not only compares to the solo sports star, he eclipses them.

If he was Sampras he'd have won the French Open and won at least 5 more Australian Open's too.

If he were an opening batsman he'd average at least 70, and he'd be racking up 5 for's like he was owed one each game.

Whilst these one man bands have just an opponent to focus on, Leo Messi is a marked man who has players flying at him all game, a constant focus for every outfield player. He plays with a smile, never deceives the referee and never stops running at players, no matter how hard they hit him.

The one grey spot is the lack of international trophies, which must be a driving force to a man who only has Olympic Gold for his national side. To stick with the tennis comparison, the Argentinean side with their appalling defence, line of poor managers and destructive behind the scenes politics are like forcing Federer out on court but banning him from serving.

In a sport where the collective can restrict the achievements of the individual, Lionel Messi is standing head and shoulders above every man playing, and has the ability that no other man before him has had.

They said he didn't turn up in the big games, he couldn't play against English sides and his heading was weak. He scores a header against Manchester United in the Champions League final to clinch victory in Rome.

His weakness is the international stage. He has 76 caps at 25 years old, and 31 goals. Nearly a goal every two games, some weakness.

A boy who had to have hormone treatment as a teenager to help his growth, who was slated as too injury prone at the age of 18, has become a man that every player watches in a daze and no one wants to face.

Whilst much of this may seem trite, his brilliance is almost overwhelming. I cannot list all his achievements, I cannot describe every moment of majesty which outdoes the last. There is not the space nor time.

He's already eclipsed any individual brilliance of any sports star, and at 25 he has years ahead to widen the gap.

Youtube screams legend with every clip of the maestro.

Even in the modern days where to have been great in yesteryear appears to put a man on a pedastal that stars of today cannot match Messi is talked of as greater. In the world's most popular sport the man is head and shoulders above every competitor.

Jesse Owen- Athletics- Championed by 88chris05

"If you subtract the era in which he competed in, the tensions the world over which defined that era and the fact that he carried the hopes of a whole race on his shoulders, and focus purely on Jesse Owens' achievements as a track and field athlete in purely numbers and medals, then he's automatically a sporting legend. However, when you combine all of those elements together, along with those medals, world records and achievements, then he becomes nothing short of a sporting monolith.

Along with Joe Louis, Owens helped to lead what many observers now call the ""quiet revolution."" In fact, a number of similarities can be drawn between Owens and the 'Brown Bomber'; both were born in 1914, both were born in Alabama and both played a critical role in proving that blacks could not only compete - and win - amongst the best athletes in the world, but they could also do so with dignity.

For Owens, it wasn't about black versus white - he just wanted to win, the same as any sportsman. And win he did. Even 77 years on, his haul of four gold medals from four events at the 1936 Olympics, with Hitler watching from the stands, stands as one of the key moments in sport, a remarkable mix of God-given talent and an ability to cope with huge pressure which, quite rightly, is still spoken of in reverent terms in 2013.

And yet, the signs of greatness had been there before those fantastic four days in Berlin. In compete contrast, it was tucked away in front of only a few spectators that Owens announced himself as one of the sporting phenomenons of the twentieth century, in Michigan, 1935. Forget any half of football you've ever seen, because it was on this afternoon, at the Big Ten Athletics Championships, that Owens produced the most remarkable forty-five minute period ever seen on the sporting stage.

Representing Ohio University, Owens got off to a flyer at the May 25 meet, winning the 100 yard dash in an (equal) world record of 9.4 seconds at 3.15 pm. Ten minutes later, he set a world record outright in the long jump, chalking up a distance of 26 foot 8.25 inches (that's 8 metres and 13 centimetres in our currency!). To put that particular record in to context, it was not broken for another twenty-five years, outstanding in track and field terms, and would still have been good enough to take the bronze medal in the long jump at the London 2012 Olympics. At 3.45 pm he took part in 220 yard dash, winning in a world record of 20.3 seconds, and then at 4.00 pm set a new mark of 22.6 seconds in the 220 yard low hurdles - and, what with the transition between metric and imperial records, Owens had also broken the world records for the shorter 200m sprint and 200m hurdles events in doing so.

Sports historians, then, will always argue whether it was three or five world records which Owens set in the space of forty-five minutes on that spring day of 1935 but, whichever side of the line you fall on, you can't see it as anything other than one of the great sporting moments in history.

If 1935 had been Owens' year of arrival, then 1936 was his signature one. The Berlin Olympics came at a time when American blacks had little to be excited about; lynchings of Afro-Americans were commonplace and often met with not so much as a bat of an eyelid. In many of the USA's (and, in fact, the world's) leading sports, such as track and field, boxing, baseball and golf, opportunities for black competitors were rare, and respect / acknowledgement for their talents even rarer than that. Even their music, as sports writer Harry Mullan once penned, had been ""bastardized by white commercial interests.""

Usually, the chance to compete against the best athletes the world had to offer in 1936 at the Olympic Games would have been a welcome relief for a young Afro-American such as Owens. However, the '36 Games, as much as they were a sports meet, were also an exercise in propaganda, a chance for Hitler to showcase to the watching world that his idea of a superior, Aryan race was quickly becoming an inescapable reality.

Owens wasn't just representing himself, and nor was he representing the USA. He was representing, and carrying the hopes of, a whole race. For every man or woman who'd suffered at the hands of discrimination, for every German Jew who was slowly having their rights to work and rights to property systematically stripped by the Nazi regime, an Owens victory would be a cause for celebration, a moral win which they could all lay some claim to.

It would probably be impossible to understand the pressures Owens must have been feeling on August 3, 1936, when he stepped out in to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin to compete in the heats of the 100m sprint. If he'd had any doubts that the crowd of ove 100,000 spectators, as well as most of the officials, were against him before the race, they will have quicly disappeared immediately afterwards; in that heat, Owens beat his own world record but the German timekeepers refused to ratify it, claiming the time had been achieved with a following wind, despite the stadium flags suggesting nothing of the sort.

However, this cheap piece of skullduggery proved only a temporary setback on Owens' road to ultimate glory. Later that same night, he won the final of the event - and with it his first gold medal - in a time of 10.3 seconds, and this time the officials did acknowledge that the world record had been equalled. The following day, he showed his hand in the 200m by beating the world record in the heats, and took his second gold medal of the Games in the long jump with a leap of 26 feet and 5 inches (8.05 metres) which would stand as an Olympic record until 1960.

With Luz Long being the pre-Games favourite to win that particular event, but now merely a vanquished foe, the world was by now realising that Owens, in a wild turn of events, was becoming the face of Berlin 1936 when, in fact, it had been the organizer's hope that black athletes would be seen as the big joke of them. On August 5, the rest of the field were powerless to prevent Owens winning gold in the 200m in another world record of 20.7 seconds, and he put the final seal on his greatness when helping the American 4x100m relay team win gold - yes, in another world record - on August 6.

In four days, Owens had played an ever-lasting role in bringing about a change of how black athletes were viewed, and it says much about his global impact that, despite Germany eventually going on to top the medals table at the Games, Berlin 1936 is still to this day remembered as Jesse Owens' Olympics, the Games in which Hitler's ideologies were put to rest in emphatic style. Even Owens, looking back, commented, ""For a while at least, I really was the most famous and most talked about man in the world.""

The outbreak of World War II, as it did to so many others, called time on Owens' athletics career, which begs the question - has any other athlete in history done so much to challenge people's perceptions and also set such high standards from a sporting perspective in such a small amount of time?

I can't think of many other athletes from any era or any sport who command my respect the way Jesse Owens does - and what leaves me even more impressed with him is the way he conducted himself as a man. It would have been easy and, let's be frank, pretty understandable for him to have been a surly character, a man who fought back against the discrimination and hardships he suffered with an acid tongue and a confrontational, off-putting demeanour, ala Jack Johnson or a young Muhammad Ali. But Owens conducted himself impeccably, maintaining that sports and politics shouldn't mix; before his death, he even did his best to convince President Jimmy Carter to reverse his decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics of Moscow for that very reason.

No, Owens didn't see himself as a black athlete, he was just an athlete who wanted to win. That he carried the hopes of so many with him, and also that he became an icon for a generation that followed, was merely incidental to him, it seems - but that does nothing at all to diminish how wonderfully well he coped with these pressures, and what a fantastic role model he continues to be, even more than three decades after his death. The word 'champion' fits this man perfectly.

And whenever I think of Owens, I'll always remember one quote which summed up his single-mindedness and dignity; when asked what he thought of Hitler refusing to shake his hand and congratulate him after his four gold medals, Owens simply said, ""Well, I didn't come here to shake hands anyway."""

Sachin Tendulkar - championed by ESPNCricinfo
Sachin Tendulkar has been the most complete batsman of his time, the most prolific runmaker of all time, and arguably the biggest cricket icon the game has ever known. His batting is based on the purest principles: perfect balance, economy of movement, precision in stroke-making, and that intangible quality given only to geniuses: anticipation. If he doesn't have a signature stroke - the upright, back-foot punch comes close - it is because he is equally proficient at each of the full range of orthodox shots (and plenty of improvised ones as well) and can pull them out at will.

There are no apparent weaknesses in Tendulkar's game. He can score all around the wicket, off both front foot and back, can tune his technique to suit every condition, temper his game to suit every situation, and has made runs in all parts of the world in all conditions.

Some of his finest performances have come against Australia, the overwhelmingly dominant team of his era. His century as a 19-year-old on a lightning-fast pitch at the WACA is considered one of the best innings ever to have been played in Australia. A few years later he received the ultimate compliment from the ultimate batsman: Don Bradman confided to his wife that Tendulkar reminded him of himself.

Blessed with the keenest of cricket minds, and armed with a loathing for losing, Tendulkar set about doing what it took to become one of the best batsmen in the world. His greatness was established early: he was only 16 when he made his Test debut. He was hit on the mouth by Waqar Younis but continued to bat, in a blood-soaked shirt. His first Test hundred, a match-saving one at Old Trafford, came when he was 17, and he had 16 Test hundreds before he turned 25. In 2000 he became the first batsman to have scored 50 international hundreds, in 2008 he passed Brian Lara as the leading Test run-scorer, and in the years after, he went past 13,000 Test runs 30,000 international runs, and 50 Test hundreds.

He currently holds the record for most hundreds in both Tests and ODIs - remarkable, considering he didn't score his first ODI hundred till his 79th match. Incredibly, he retains a divine enthusiasm for the game: at 36 years and 306 days he broke a 40-year-old barrier by scoring the first double-century in one-day cricket. In 2012, when just one month short of his 39th birthday, he became the first player to score 100 international centuries, which like Bradman's batting average, could be a mark that lasts for ever. Later that year, though, he announced his retirement from ODIs after a disappointing 18 months in international cricket.

Tendulkar's considerable achievements seem greater still when looked at in the light of the burden of expectations he has had to bear from his adoring but somewhat unreasonable followers, who have been prone to regard anything less than a hundred in each innings as a failure. The aura may have dimmed, if only slightly, as the years on the international circuit have taken their toll on the body, but Tendulkar remains, by a distance, the most worshipped cricketer in the world.

88Chris05 wrote:Mike, I'd question your theory that Owens didn't do enough to try and help change the perception of black athletes (or blacks in general) and highlight the equality in America at that time.

What, exactly, would you have had him do?

Many thanks for the coherent and developped response; I'll read and answer later on when free.

Diggers wrote:I dont completely buy into the potential theory re Messi. Best retired at 27 to all intents and purposes, Messi has done as much for me at the age of 25 to be ranked above Best for instance.

Diggers
Not an unreasonable comment - I think Messi's career to date rates ahead of Best's. Of course the follow-on is that Best is considered to have slightly wasted his talent, although the situation he found himself in at Man U of the early 70s was of a side getting old around him and not re-building adequately (not ideal for someone with Best's other rather 'colourful' character traits). Interesting possible parallel with Barca (with the likes of Puyol and Xavi into their 30s), although I suspect with the modern transfer market they will find it easier to rebuild and keep themselves at the top of the game.

The problem is that we have to compare a mid-career Messi with Pele and Maradona (and arguably Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano) - at the moment he simply hasn't achieved enough in the game to merit placing ahead of any of these guys. He shines for Barcelona, but they are already a fantastic team, with the likes of Iniesta and Xavi being so good at working the space to allow Messi to then do his stuff. At international level, he still has to prove he can carry the team and the weight of expectation for Argentina. Not the football GOAT (yet? - for me has to achieve a lot more to be really in contention), and so his inclusion in this debate is very premature.

88Chris05 wrote:Mike, I'd question your theory that Owens didn't do enough to try and help change the perception of black athletes (or blacks in general) and highlight the equality in America at that time.

What, exactly, would you have had him do?

Unlike a Muhammad Ali or a Tommie Smith, Owens didn't have the wonder of television to give him an audience of hundreds of millions, and while general life for a black man in the USA in the sixties may have been tough and still full of injustices, they were at least afforded respect and opportunities within their sporting fields. In the thirties (so basically, the Owens era), however, this was no given.

Owens, like Joe Louis, preferred to go down the quiet and dignified route, rather than the bombastic, loud approach of a Jack Johnson or Muhammad Ali. It's worth noting that, rather than improve the image and reputation of the black communities in the States, many feel that the antics of Johnson and the young Ali actually had the opposite effect in the eyes of many, rightly or wrongly. Johnson's relationships with white women, outspoken nature and clowning of white opponents cause wide-spread race riots and, in many cases, lynchings of American blacks became commonplace after a publicised Johnson victory, never more so than after he won the 'Fight of the Century' against Jim Jeffries in 1910. As a result of how he comported himself while champion, black fighters, rather than being given more opportunities, were actually denied these chances until Louis emerged more than two decades later.

As Johnson's actions actually ended up holding back 'his people', why should Owens (or Louis, for that matter) be criticised for just wanting to prove that black athletes could compete and succeed with a quiet dignity? I don't think there's anything 'rose tinted' about suggesting that Owens' triumphs at Berlin '36 were a cause for joy amongst all minories who have known a similar struggle in their lives; 77 years on, and it's still spoken of in reverent terms. There was Lewis in '84, Spitz in '72 etc, but I don't think any one single edition of the Olympics has ever been as synonamous with one name as much as Berlin '36 is with Jesse Owens.

As for those saying that he can't be considered as a GOAT candidate within his own sport - I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't wish to waste too much time with the old "well, so and so has run faster, so he's greater" argument, as that really is an appallingly off-base way of judging, but looking at it more objectively I'd say that Owens' four-gold, sprint and jump feat has only been equalled once in the 77 years since. That was by Lewis but, unlike him, Owens has no stench of failed drugs tests hanging over him, and what's more is that Owens competed in an era where he needed to work alongside trying to fit in training and competing. Cinder tracks, plimsoles for footwear etc. Eras are different but Owens was utterly dominant within his own.

As I said in the article, in 1935 Owens jumped 8.13 metres in the long jump. Fast forward 77 years, and that distance would have taken a bronze medal in the London 2012 Olympics. Can anyone else name a single athlete from the thirties (I doubt, in fact, if there were any from the forties and fifties, come to think of it) who produced times / distances which would have got them on the podium in London last year?

There are some truly amazing athletes to pick from in this project, but for me Owens is an absolute giant amongst them.

That is actually quite a stunning summary of things and puts into perspective what Owens achieved at the time and how is stands today within the world of sport in general.

I meant to add earlier that all of the write-ups today are fantastic and give a lot of food for thought!

superflyweight wrote:I meant to add earlier that all of the write-ups today are fantastic and give a lot of food for thought!

Cheers Super was hoping to get Henry Armstrong but some git has already nicked it, make a good job as Henry deserves to make it but we may have to do some serious selling to those who are unaware of his greatness.

fine words from chris... the only criticism in goat terms you can label at owens is longevity. However in most cases, that's because someone's star faded. In his case, he hung up his amateur spikes at 22 to try and feed his family. We can only guess at what might have been, but given he retired before most athletes peak, i think he justifies some slack on the longevity aspect.

Stella wrote:1992 fists.

It was a splendid knock.

Thanks Stella.

I think it's got to be Jesse Owens from this lot.
Non of these sportsmen can be viewed as being indisputable G.O.A.T.s within their own sports (although they are all close), so it comes down, for me, to whether any of them have transcended their sport. Although, to be fair, it was largely due to circumstance, Owens' brilliance in '36 meant that he transcended his sport to become a global icon in his own right. That's why I'm voting for him.

Sometimes i wonder if we are trying find the greatest human rather than the greatest sportsman. We have arguments against woods and mesi that they havent completed there carrers yet. But on the other hand many of our nominations for goats have had short carrers anyway..

Jesse winning 4 golds in an oylimpics when he was criminally treated is testiment to him.. And yeah the strings are pulling on my heart.

Greatest sportsman - well No.. not for me..

Rowley wrote:

superflyweight wrote:I meant to add earlier that all of the write-ups today are fantastic and give a lot of food for thought!

Cheers Super was hoping to get Henry Armstrong but some git has already nicked it, make a good job as Henry deserves to make it but we may have to do some serious selling to those who are unaware of his greatness.

Annoyed Mrs Superfly by wriiting it on Saturday evening. Hard to do Hank justice but at the least, hopefully this will give his exploits greater exposure!

Another GOAT thread that should be global but isn't

Dude that's an oversight, hardly the biggest mistake ever...paging Mr Hastings!

VTR hehe- thought you would get rid of that one. GLOBAL annocements i think he means...

Yes I now realise that so apologies to all. I thought it was another "this is too British biased" whinge. Sick of reading them, its a British website ffs!

done it myself a few times pal..

VTR wrote:Yes I now realise that so apologies to all. I thought it was another "this is too British biased" whinge. Sick of reading them, its a British website ffs!

True, it's a British-based site, and clearly there has been an inevitable focus on those sportsmen that we are most familiar with (not necessarily all British, for example the inclusion of about 5 cricketers so far, none of them English iirc). The problem is that Britain has had very few international sports stars who can realistically hold their head up amongst the greatest ever, and several of those that have been included have been guys who have dominated niche sports (McCoy, Taylor, Hendry).

I may have come across slightly dismissive of Redgrave and Hoy yesterday, but in truth I'd have voted for either ahead of any of today's candidates - it's just that when you consider their achievements in their respective sports against those of Bolt, I can only see one winner.

Coming up with the initial 64 must have been a bit of a nightmare, and proves you can't please all of the people all of the time - we've had complaints on the inclusion of I think every star of a US sport other than Michael Jordan, but also complaints about parochialism. To be fair, other than Gavin Hastings in the first batch (he'd probably not make my list of the best 64 rugby players of all time - not quite sure how his nomination made it through considering ther was no need of a token Scotsman given the inclusion of Hoy and Hendry ), I think everyone has merited debate (I wouldn't have included Messi, but only because it's too soon).

Obviously, it is very difficult to compare the merits of someone who is THE best in their niche event with someone who is (say) in the top 5 footballers ever, and indeed I think this is very much one of the key parts of this debate, and one that will probably become more significant as we get to the next stages.

dummy_half wrote:

Diggers wrote:I dont completely buy into the potential theory re Messi. Best retired at 27 to all intents and purposes, Messi has done as much for me at the age of 25 to be ranked above Best for instance.

Diggers
Not an unreasonable comment - I think Messi's career to date rates ahead of Best's. Of course the follow-on is that Best is considered to have slightly wasted his talent, although the situation he found himself in at Man U of the early 70s was of a side getting old around him and not re-building adequately (not ideal for someone with Best's other rather 'colourful' character traits). Interesting possible parallel with Barca (with the likes of Puyol and Xavi into their 30s), although I suspect with the modern transfer market they will find it easier to rebuild and keep themselves at the top of the game.

The problem is that we have to compare a mid-career Messi with Pele and Maradona (and arguably Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano) - at the moment he simply hasn't achieved enough in the game to merit placing ahead of any of these guys. He shines for Barcelona, but they are already a fantastic team, with the likes of Iniesta and Xavi being so good at working the space to allow Messi to then do his stuff. At international level, he still has to prove he can carry the team and the weight of expectation for Argentina. Not the football GOAT (yet? - for me has to achieve a lot more to be really in contention), and so his inclusion in this debate is very premature.

I think the counter argument to this is that football stands out as the single global team sport, its mass participation on a massive scale. Barely a kid with any talent will slip through the net, they are actively sought out and assigned to academies and clubs at a stupidly early age. In short the talent pool is absoloutly massive and for Messi to be so good (along with Ronaldo IMO not far behind him, I dont at all buy into the fact that Messi is streets ahead) means he warrants consideration. He has started to fulfill his international potential, 12 goals in 2012 which is pretty good going but clearly the next world cup will be massive for him in terms of legacy.

VTR wrote:Yes I now realise that so apologies to all. I thought it was another "this is too British biased" whinge. Sick of reading them, its a British website ffs!

it's a british based .com website with a primarily british following. Obviously, we'd have a different 64 if it were, say, US based. But, don't you think on a thread about goats, it's relatively meaningless exercise if you cant be objective? If it was british goat that would be different. You keep being sick of people moaning about british bias and i'll keep sighing to myself when i see people voting for redgrave. Doesn't make either of us right... it's all just opinion.

That's a good post dummy_half and I agree with your points.

Has got me thinking, maybe a greatest British sportsperson of all time could be set up next on here - would find that interesting, maybe start with 32 candidates (or we might have to put the likes of Tiger Tim in there!).

VTR wrote:That's a good post dummy_half and I agree with your points.

Has got me thinking, maybe a greatest British sportsperson of all time could be set up next on here - would find that interesting, maybe start with 32 candidates (or we might have to put the likes of Tiger Tim in there!).

Whjo knows, maybe when Hoy goes out Redgrave or The Power will get his votes and win the whole thing......at which point I really wont know whether to laugh or cry. Well I do, Id laugh, very hard.

There is no chance a brit is gonna win this one...

But yeah a UK goat is a good shout..

faldo would be my pick atm

Why would it matter? This is just a fun exercise. I'm personally enjoying it, reading the write ups etc. I've learnt quite a lot from it regardless of the outcome.

Sure its fun but Id still say an element of logic needs to be applied. Id rather we ended up with people at the very top who sensibly deserve to be there than not. I dont think thats too great an expectation.

By the voting so far i think we will get a worthy goat diggs..

I agree Diggers and I think people are being fairly objective based on the comments and voting so far. Yesterday we had 2 Brits up against each other but they didn't get as many votes between them as a Jamaican sprinter. And I read some good reasons that people didn't vote for Bolt.

A UK goat? Nice idea - pick from Fred Perry, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Faldo, Coe, Jimmy Wilde, Ted Kid Lewis, Bobby Charlton, George Best, John Charles, Kenny Dalglish, Farah, Hoy, Redgrave, Ainslie, Hendry, O'Sullivan, Taylor, Gareth Edwards, Wiggins or my own personal favourite, Daley Thompson. That's just 21, so it's a good starting point, and I reckon we could put a viable field together.

Its all about opinion I guess...well obviously......but Im utterly staggered that Redgrave could get 35% of the vote in a poll against Bolt, to me it just doesnt compute. I'd have Hoy ahead of Redgrave quite comfortably as well I think.
But it is interesting to see other people takes regardless of whether you think they are utterly bonkers or not.

Good list Cap carrot


I think mansel needs a nom as well- Won F1 then an american one.. Decent stuff that.

I think if tyson can get in the world list then could we put gaza up in the UK???

What about beckham-- hehe that would create debate!!

Obviously Princess Anne and Zara Phillips would need careful consideration......

A greatest Brit thread would be interesting - obviously Redgrave and Hoy would be up there, but then you have to compare with our great athletes of the 80s (Coe, Thompson) and our finest tennis player (Fred Perry) as well as the guys like Hendry or Taylor who are clearly the best in their very Brit-centric sport.

Am I right to think that at the moment the only Brits though in the first round are Gareth Edwards, Taylor and McCoy?

Diggers
One point I agree with is that Messi is not as much better than Ronaldo as the hype suggests.

You are right to say that football is THE global sport, and so it may well be right that a list of the best 64 sportspeople of all time includes a few more footballers than it does say darts or snooker players. Not sure that even under this stipulation Messi should be included yet - he's so far shown great ability to perform for perhaps the best club side ever (although Real might argue their early 60s team was better relative to the contemporary opposition), but still has to deliver on his potential at International level, which I think means as a minimum leading Argentina to the late stages of a World Cup (after all, Cruyff's Netherlands team didn't win in 74, and that's not really held against him).

As I've repeatedly said, if we are repeating this thread in a few years time and Messi has continued to perform at the same level as the last 3 or 4 years, then my position would be very different.

Oh, and your comment about talent being picked up early by the European clubs brings in the interesting fact that Messi is the product of doping - he was diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency at 11 and his treatment (growth hormone is a WADA banned substance for which a TUE certificate cannot be issued) was provided by Barcelona as part of the deal on signing him. Without this treatment, he would have been too small and slight to be an effective footballer, regardless of his skill level.

Diggers wrote:Obviously Princess Anne and Zara Phillips would need careful consideration......

You see, whatever the outcome of this I am confident it wont be public voting going as wrong as that. And that was on a much larger scale!

looking at the size of him dummy, they didn't give him a large dose.

diggers, imagine having to choose between mansell and redgrave? Maybe the brit goats isn't such a good idea

Right enough, McCoy would be in there, as, of course, would be the immortal Lester Piggott and probably Gordon Richards too. Not sure that I could ever seriously entertain Mansell when you've got a guy with Clark's achievements on both sides of the Atlantic in there already, mind you.

mansell is a scratch golfer- so he beats redgrave

dummy_half wrote:
Oh, and your comment about talent being picked up early by the European clubs brings in the interesting fact that Messi is the product of doping - he was diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency at 11 and his treatment (growth hormone is a WADA banned substance for which a TUE certificate cannot be issued) was provided by Barcelona as part of the deal on signing him. Without this treatment, he would have been too small and slight to be an effective footballer, regardless of his skill level.

Thats a very interesting point, Im guessing that growth hormones are seen in children as being medically beneficial, as opposed to when they are used by fully developed adults ?
He's not a big chap as it is, can you imagine how tiny he would have been, certainly would have topped any dwarf GOAT polls....

I happen to know that Redgrave is a dab hand at Jenga....

without the hormones he wouldnt have played footy.

so warick davies wins drawf sport goat with his walk up that mountain in an idiot abroad

mystiroakey wrote:Good list Cap carrot


I think mansel needs a nom as well- Won F1 then an american one.. Decent stuff that. Pity he was so boring sounding, as he was such a monster behind the wheel

I think if tyson can get in the world list then could we put gaza up in the UK??? Like the thinking, and can see the parallels - plenty of talent but seriously undermined by self-destructive tendencies

What about beckham-- hehe that would create debate!! Agree - strip away the marketing and image guff, and is there enough substance to what he did on the pitch? Was certainly a very good player for a while, but I'd be interested to hear whether others think he was over-rated because of his image, or under-rated because the image over-shadowed the achievements on the pitch.

[b]

captain carrantuohil wrote:A UK goat? Nice idea - pick from Fred Perry, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Faldo, Coe, Jimmy Wilde, Ted Kid Lewis, Bobby Charlton, George Best, John Charles, Kenny Dalglish, Farah, Hoy, Redgrave, Ainslie, Hendry, O'Sullivan, Taylor, Gareth Edwards, Wiggins or my own personal favourite, Daley Thompson. That's just 21, so it's a good starting point, and I reckon we could put a viable field together.

No cricketers?
Grace?
Hobbs?

Flintoff...

top all rounder, undefeated heavyweight

Yep, Hobbs and Grace are two I'd have, along with Hammond, unquestionably one of the two greatest English batsmen, and Barnes, by far the greatest English bowler. I know that Botham would get a zillion votes as well, but I could never bring myself to champion the cause of someone who was so consistently exposed by the two best sides he ever faced (West indies and Pakistan with a full complement of their best players).

Diggers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:
Oh, and your comment about talent being picked up early by the European clubs brings in the interesting fact that Messi is the product of doping - he was diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency at 11 and his treatment (growth hormone is a WADA banned substance for which a TUE certificate cannot be issued) was provided by Barcelona as part of the deal on signing him. Without this treatment, he would have been too small and slight to be an effective footballer, regardless of his skill level.

Thats a very interesting point, Im guessing that growth hormones are seen in children as being medically beneficial, as opposed to when they are used by fully developed adults ?
He's not a big chap as it is, can you imagine how tiny he would have been, certainly would have topped any dwarf GOAT polls....

It's an interesting ethical grey area - yes, Messi needed the treatment for medical reasons, but they clearly had a subsequent benefit to his sporting abilities. Also, does it not open a real can of worms for the future with sports teams signing talented but undersized kids and pumping them with growth hormone to make sure they are big enough to play rugby or basketball? (it is rumoured that US high schools and colleges are already doing similar with their great hopes for basketball success).

Messi's overrated

on a more serious note, much as with Bolt yesterday (and perhaps even more so) I'm disinclined to vote for Messi due to his career simply being too young. Yes his achievements are extraordinary (though Mike raised some valid claims about his performances on the biggest stage - maybe it's because I'm a Chelsea fan and he's never performed against them), but if he were to do pretty much nothing for the rest of his career (unlikely as it may be) I suspect he'd rank a notch below Pele and Maradonna and closer to say Zidane, Cruyff, etc.

Similar reservations with Leonard and Tendulkar (the only cricketer I've voted for so far is Bradman).

In the end I went with Owens, on the back of Chris's superb post.

dummy_half wrote:

Diggers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:
Oh, and your comment about talent being picked up early by the European clubs brings in the interesting fact that Messi is the product of doping - he was diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency at 11 and his treatment (growth hormone is a WADA banned substance for which a TUE certificate cannot be issued) was provided by Barcelona as part of the deal on signing him. Without this treatment, he would have been too small and slight to be an effective footballer, regardless of his skill level.

Thats a very interesting point, Im guessing that growth hormones are seen in children as being medically beneficial, as opposed to when they are used by fully developed adults ?
He's not a big chap as it is, can you imagine how tiny he would have been, certainly would have topped any dwarf GOAT polls....

It's an interesting ethical grey area - yes, Messi needed the treatment for medical reasons, but they clearly had a subsequent benefit to his sporting abilities. Also, does it not open a real can of worms for the future with sports teams signing talented but undersized kids and pumping them with growth hormone to make sure they are big enough to play rugby or basketball? (it is rumoured that US high schools and colleges are already doing similar with their great hopes for basketball success).

China does it with all there athletes-- especially women swimmers!!

captain carrantuohil wrote:Yep, Hobbs and Grace are two I'd have, along with Hammond, unquestionably one of the two greatest English batsmen, and Barnes, by far the greatest English bowler. I know that Botham would get a zillion votes as well, but I could never bring myself to champion the cause of someone who was so consistently exposed by the two best sides he ever faced (West indies and Pakistan with a full complement of their best players).

No place for Fiery Fred or Boycs, I am disappointed in you Captain.

boycott get outta here..

cook, kp, flinty, botham, swanny would all get in my all time 11..

Love the Tykes, Jeff, but Boycs wouldn't get into an all-time Yorkshire team as opener (Sutcliffe and Hutton have those spots sewn up). Fred would be pretty close - a good argument for a final 64 place. No space for Darren Gough, Lord Hawke or Richard Blakey, sadly!

Flintoff and Swann in your all-time 11, Mystir? With selectors like you, it's no wonder we've struggled so much since the war!

mystiroakey wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

Diggers wrote:

dummy_half wrote:
Oh, and your comment about talent being picked up early by the European clubs brings in the interesting fact that Messi is the product of doping - he was diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency at 11 and his treatment (growth hormone is a WADA banned substance for which a TUE certificate cannot be issued) was provided by Barcelona as part of the deal on signing him. Without this treatment, he would have been too small and slight to be an effective footballer, regardless of his skill level.

Thats a very interesting point, Im guessing that growth hormones are seen in children as being medically beneficial, as opposed to when they are used by fully developed adults ?
He's not a big chap as it is, can you imagine how tiny he would have been, certainly would have topped any dwarf GOAT polls....

It's an interesting ethical grey area - yes, Messi needed the treatment for medical reasons, but they clearly had a subsequent benefit to his sporting abilities. Also, does it not open a real can of worms for the future with sports teams signing talented but undersized kids and pumping them with growth hormone to make sure they are big enough to play rugby or basketball? (it is rumoured that US high schools and colleges are already doing similar with their great hopes for basketball success).

China does it with all there athletes-- especially women swimmers!!

Didnt the eastern bloc and China supposedly have a record of doing the opposite with its gymnasts, in effective extracting or countering their growth hormones to keep them all under 5 feet tall and better suited for the sport, the women that is.

probally yeah diggs.. whatever it takes i suppose..