Tennis to step up drug fight in light of Lance Armstrong scandal

by LuvSports! Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Lance Armstrong's admission that he took drugs to help him win all seven of his Tour de France titles has put performance enhancing substances in the spotlight.
Now tennis has been brought into the debate with former world number four Guy Forget claiming he was beaten by rivals who took drugs.
Three players - Ryan Newport from the United States, Bulgarian Dimitar Kutrovsky and Italian Filippo Calorosi - are currently suspended from playing for taking drugs and Forget believes they are not the only men on the circuit guilty of doping.
BBC Sport speaks to current and ex players, coaches and officials in charge of testing to try and discover if tennis has a drug problem.

Drugs in tennis

The Men's Tennis Council began drug testing in the late 1980s with the focus mainly on recreational drugs. The testing was extended to include performance-enhancing drugs when the ATP Tour was formed in 1990.

Guy Forget claims he played against rivals who had taken drugs
But Guy Forget, who was ranked the fourth best player in the world in 1991, is convinced he played against players who were doping.
He says: "I have lost matches against guys who beat me with an unfair advantage because they were taking drugs.
"For sure, it has happened. I can look at myself in the mirror knowing I have never taken anything.
"When I played there were no controls at all so why wouldn't you cheat the system."

The situation now

The International Tennis Federation (ITF) now leads a unified Tennis Anti-Doping Programme applying across all tennis events.
The ITF carried out 131 blood tests both in and out of competition in 2011, the last year for which figures are available. That was alongside 2,019 urine tests.
Now the ITF are planning to introduce an athlete biological passport (ABP) which allows officials to collect and compare biological data and spot variances that suggest doping.
“
I feel tennis is clean, I do very much. For the amount of times that we get tested throughout the year and as random as they are, definitely
”
Maria Sharapova
It is an improvement many in the game believe is needed.
Forget added: "I don't feel our sport is clean. I am sure now as we speak there are some guys that are cheating. You cannot say tennis is not touched by this poisonous thing.
"I think it is a minority probably, but that is why Roger Federer and the other guys says we should put more money into blood test and controls because we should fight this any way we can."
Australian coach Darren Cahill, who has coached Lleyton Hewitt and Andre Agassi in the past, says on Twitter: "Our testing program is inadequate. That's why no-one can stand up and speak out. It's gone backwards in recent years."
Current world number one Novak Djokovic recently complained the number of blood tests he has undergone has dropped in the last year.
He said: "I wasn't tested with blood for last six, seven months. It was more regularly in last two, three years ago. I don't know the reason why they stopped it."

Fighting back

Dr. Stuart Miller, who oversees the ITF's anti-doping programme, claims education as much as detection is the best way to cure the problems of drugs in sport.
But he is an advocate of plans to bring in an ABP to make it easier to find the drug cheats.
Miller says: "We think we can improve by introducing what is known as the athlete biological passport, which is a blood-based testing programme which allows you to establish individual baseline parameters.
"That is not in operation at the moment. But we're looking very, very closely at it and I think that there's a reasonably good chance that that will be operational probably towards the end of 2013.
"It takes a long time to set up. There's a number of constraints and conditions that you have to satisfy, you can't just turn a switch."
What is a athlete biological passport
An ABP is an electronic document about the athlete that contains certain biomarkers from through his career.

If these markers change dramatically from the historic levels it alerts officials that the athlete might be doping.

Miller went on to answer Forget's complaints.
"I think we need to put a couple of things into context," he said. "Firstly I think Forget answered his own question when he said back at the time when he was playing, anti-doping was very different.
"There was no such thing as the World Anti-Doping Agency, there was no list of prohibited substances that all the sports signed up to and actually tennis was one of the pioneering sports in introducing anti-doping testing back in Forget's time.
"Granted, it was for a different list of prohibited substances - it was mainly recreational substances - and he's right, there wasn't as much testing, but tennis was pioneering at that particular time. And it's come a long way since that time, when he was playing."

Is tennis clean?

The leading players have thrown their support behind initiatives to weed out rivals who use drugs to enhance their performance but many are content that the sport is not on a par with the level of doping that has been uncovered in cycling.
World number three Andy Murray says: "I think all sports are trying to improve their doping controls.
"If that's more blood testing or the biological passports, that's something we need to do and improve in tennis, as well.

The three men currently banned for drug taking
Filippo Calorosi (Ita)
Dimitar Kutrovsky (Bul)
Ryan Newport (USA)

Four time grand slam winner Maria Sharapova is confident she is competing on a level playing field.
The Russian says: "I feel tennis is clean, I do very much. For the amount of times that we get tested throughout the year and as random as they are, definitely."
Tennis great Martina Navratilova, who won 18 Grand Slam titles, accepts doping has taken place in tennis but not a large degree.
She says: "There is very stringent drug testing going on and it has to be done, because there obviously has been some cheating going on as a few people have been caught.
"But overall, I think we have a pretty clean sport. You know that Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal or any of those guys wouldn't do anything like what Lance Armstrong was doing.
"I think tennis is doing a pretty good job, at least from what I see."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/21139622

chin

not sure about this one. thoughts?

by LuvSports! Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:47 pm

Course there are spanish boxers, there are loads!
Maybe not that well known but there were loads at the olympics this year, I think the most famous spanish boxer, Castillejo, was a former middleweight champion and fought oscar de la hoya.

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:02 pm

So who are we actually talking about then BB.. or need I ask.
Fuentes says he has treated some very high profile footballers.. he did not say what nationality... so lets try David Beckham.. he did after all play for Real Madrid or Ronaldo even. It seems to me that the suspicion is because this Fuentes is Spanish.. but Armstrong is American and so is one other I believe.
True that Spain field a large contingent of cyclists .. but as I say he mentions athletes (Spain arn´t much into athletics) so lets try some of the Olympians with outstanding records. Swimmers (cant say Ive seen many Spanish swimmers either). So we are getting down to the nitty gritty.. and so Rafa stands up and says "Dont look at me Im as clean as a whistle" I hope you will believe him because if not you can start pointing a finger at any if not all the others.
There are those on here that would desperately like Rafa´s name to be listed and dont you think he is aware of that fact.. he is also aware Ive no doubt of
"he protests too much me thinks". I have no doubts in my mind purely because Rafa has a huge profile here in Spain.. his matches are watched at Wimbledon and FO both by Queen Sophia and Prince Phillipe.. he is a frequent guest at the Palace he has huge endorsements here and apart from his own prestige I cannot believe that Rafa who is profoundly patriotic would do that to his country.

Naive ????? MAYBE but I chose to believe him and he has no reason to have to prove it so why should he demand such publication if he knows he is innocent.

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:04 pm

LuvSports! wrote:Course there are spanish boxers, there are loads!
Maybe not that well known but there were loads at the olympics this year, I think the most famous spanish boxer, Castillejo, was a former middleweight champion and fought oscar de la hoya.

Ahh so there were LOADS at the Olympics... did the PEDS do them any good ??? did they win any medals then

I can tell what forum you frequent LS

by LuvSports! Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:10 pm

1) How is that got anything to do with your previous comment that there are no boxers? I merely answered that question, that is it.

2) I know very little about boxing, I just happened to work at the Olympics this year and saw several Spanish boxers during my time there.

You are getting defensive again. I was not accusing anyone of anything.
So stop making something out of nothing.

by LuvSports! Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:12 pm

Perhaps if you do some research into the sports you suggest, you would find some, instead of dismissing them straight away.
Spain have usually done well in the longest distance running events.
ok?

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:14 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:So who are we actually talking about then BB.. or need I ask.
Fuentes says he has treated some very high profile footballers.. he did not say what nationality... so lets try David Beckham.. he did after all play for Real Madrid or Ronaldo even. It seems to me that the suspicion is because this Fuentes is Spanish.. but Armstrong is American and so is one other I believe.
True that Spain field a large contingent of cyclists .. but as I say he mentions athletes (Spain arn´t much into athletics) so lets try some of the Olympians with outstanding records. Swimmers (cant say Ive seen many Spanish swimmers either). So we are getting down to the nitty gritty.. and so Rafa stands up and says "Dont look at me Im as clean as a whistle" I hope you will believe him because if not you can start pointing a finger at any if not all the others.
There are those on here that would desperately like Rafa´s name to be listed and dont you think he is aware of that fact.. he is also aware Ive no doubt of
"he protests too much me thinks". I have no doubts in my mind purely because Rafa has a huge profile here in Spain.. his matches are watched at Wimbledon and FO both by Queen Sophia and Prince Phillipe.. he is a frequent guest at the Palace he has huge endorsements here and apart from his own prestige I cannot believe that Rafa who is profoundly patriotic would do that to his country.

Naive ????? MAYBE but I chose to believe him and he has no reason to have to prove it so why should he demand such publication if he knows he is innocent.

See what I mean? You think Nadal automatically. Do you think Beckham is implicated in any way in this, even by association? First time I've heard his name mentioned in this context.

All I'm saying is that if my name was being bandied about I'd say I've had enough of the bull, I demand publication now so everyone can see I'm not on it.

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:18 pm

LuvSports! wrote:1) How is that got anything to do with your previous comment that there are no boxers? I merely answered that question, that is it.

2) I know very little about boxing, I just happened to work at the Olympics this year and saw several Spanish boxers during my time there.

You are getting defensive again. I was not accusing anyone of anything.
So stop making something out of nothing.

If you are going to quote me ... then get it correct I did not say there were no Spanish Boxers.. what I said was I have not heard of any Spanish boxers...

Getting defensive where Nadal is concerned is a hazard on this forum.. any excuse is better than none because there are those who are desperate for that list to be published because they want to see his name on it. BUT REMEMBER be careful what you wish for... there could be a few tennis shocks that might not be expected

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:22 pm

The whole thing is a pointless debate anyway.. I will reiterrate what I have said... wish on if you think that list will be published. And no I do not think Nadal should demand anything of the kind. He´s back to play tennis after a long injury and I think he has more important things to worry about. censored

by User 774433 Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:23 pm

I know who is on the list.

by LuvSports! Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:28 pm

wow ok im sorry for that huge error, it is my fault you don't know much about that sport but say "ive never heard of them", as if that ends the matter.

"HN has never heard of them, so the matter is closed."

I would have cared, about 6 months ago, before i started my dissertation on doping in sport.
Now I am suspicious of everyone. Through reading 1000's of journals, articles, blogs and several books, I have changed my views completely, I am not even surprised anymore if people are on drugs, i am suspicious of everyone.

This needs to be questioned. Athletes in general need to be more candid and forthcoming about doping in the sport, they don't go nearly far enough.
I believe most people dope, its a cut throat world, it's all about money!

I think the sponsors, organisers, athletes and teams know whats going on but us spectators don't.
I would be sad if say feds was on there but not as sad as before, but if they are cheats i won't support them END OF.

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:41 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:I know who is on the list.

Great, will we be getting another 'bombshell' article to go with the others we've.... er.... never seen?

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:43 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:The whole thing is a pointless debate anyway.. I will reiterrate what I have said... wish on if you think that list will be published. And no I do not think Nadal should demand anything of the kind. He´s back to play tennis after a long injury and I think he has more important things to worry about.

Demanding publication is not incompatible with playing.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:45 pm

bogbrush wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:I know who is on the list.
Great, will we be getting another 'bombshell' article to go with the others we've.... er.... never seen?

I think the names on IMBL's list are Heinz, Kellogg's, Warburton's...he takes it to Tesco every Saturday. Wink

by User 774433 Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:50 pm

Yes.
Apart from Heinz.

He just has naturally high EPO levels in his blood.

by Calder106 Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:50 pm

LuvSports! wrote:Perhaps if you do some research into the sports you suggest, you would find some, instead of dismissing them straight away.
Spain have usually done well in the longest distance running events.ok?

First I will say I don't have any knowledge of who is or isn't doping. I only hope A) It's not widespread in Tennis and B) It's not anyone that I have supported.

However I don't see any justification in the statement in bold in these stats. GB has as much if not more success in in long distance running events.
http://www.databaseolympics.com/country/countrysport.htm?cty=ESP&sp=ATH

by **JuliusHMarx** Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:52 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Yes.
Apart from Heinz.

He just has naturally high EPO levels in his blood.

He claims he's just full of beans

by User 774433 Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:52 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:Yes.
Apart from Heinz.

He just has naturally high EPO levels in his blood.

He claims he's just full of beans

by LuvSports! Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:02 pm

If you look at their other events it is one of their better ones, behind cycling, sailing and canoeing.
I don't see how comparing it to GB is relevant, all i was saying it is one of their stronger events and in the past spain has produced some of the best european ldr's that try to challenge the kenyan/Ethiopian dominance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Athletics_Championships_medalists_(men)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Athletics_Championships_medalists_(women)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_records_in_athletics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_at_the_Olympics

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:30 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:The whole thing is a pointless debate anyway.. I will reiterrate what I have said... wish on if you think that list will be published. And no I do not think Nadal should demand anything of the kind. He´s back to play tennis after a long injury and I think he has more important things to worry about.
Demanding publication is not incompatible with playing.

But why should he.?? he is not compelled to satisfy your curiousity. If he has been well advised, and I would suggest he has, he knows it matters not one iota if he knows himself he is clean then he lets the world and his wife get on with it. Why get embroiled in something which he feels does not affect him. Its obvious to me that if it troubled him to that degree he would have done it a long time ago. You see BB its people like you that are continually fuelling the suspicion about Rafa.. Im glad he is disappointing you.

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:32 pm

I didn't say what he should do, I said what I would do.

In fact I never mentioned him (or anyone), you filled that blank in yourself. Why was that?

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Oh I know you so well ... thats why. Very Happy

Then if that is what you would do in the same circumstances... I would strongly suggest you are being ill advised by those who profess to care about you.

I worked for some years for a man who was in the Secret Service.. he taught me one valuable lesson i.e. when you know you are right....let the argument come to you because then you are ready for it. Wink

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:48 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Oh I know you so well ... thats why. Then if that is what you would do in the same circumstances... I would strongly suggest you are being ill advised by those who profess to care about you.

I worked for some years for a man who was in the Secret Service.. he taught me one valuable lesson i.e. when you know you are right....let the argument come to you because then you are ready for it.

The former shows that you don't listen to the latter; why advance to arguing about Nadal when the point was about handling doubt?

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:53 pm

Im not arguing .. its you that does the arguing BB .. you were born to it.
"argument" in the latter sentence was figuratively speaking

Other than that I have not a clue what your talking about.

In plain English I´m glad that you are not Nadal´s adviser
He has no need to satisfy his doubters. Those who care dont.. those who dont care...dont matter.

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:55 pm

The point is that I made an observation of what I would do if it were rumoured I was on the list.

You then launched into the defence of Nadal.

You see the jump you made?

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:58 pm

No it was merely a little skip with you BB.. not a jump by any means... you forget how long Ive known you.. its not always what you say as what you dont-

Will someone wake Socal up please Whistle

by hawkeye Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:21 pm

bogbrush

I wouldn't get involved. Like it or not what Fuentes did wasn't illegal in Spain. His clients were doing nothing illegal by being treated (they may have broken their sports international rules on doping but that is a separate issue.) It would be tricky to say the least to force Fuentes patients identities to be released. Even if the identities were released proving "guilt" would be far from easy and any "exposed" individual could potentially have a case against anyone that identified them. How could an innocent athlete take on this tricky task without huge potential repercussions?

Instead I will ask you some different questions. Imagine you were an innocent athlete implicated in this without any way of proving your innocence. How would you feel? Or imagine the mud that you could sling at someone you didn't "like" knowing that no matter how unfair some of that mud would stick.

I would still like to think that tennis players don't benefit as much as other pro athletes from merely being fitter, stronger and more muscle bound. If that's the direction tennis goes in I certainly won't be watching. But if there is a doping problem in tennis I reckon it would be better to focus on detection methods going forward.

by djlovesyou Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:29 pm

hawkeye wrote:

I would still like to think that tennis players don't benefit as much as other pro athletes from merely being fitter, stronger and more muscle bound. If that's the direction tennis goes in I certainly won't be watching. But if there is a doping problem in tennis I reckon it would be better to focus on detection methods going forward.

They may not benefit as much as a cyclist, say, but there are still major benefits. Couple that with the fact that tennis doesn't want to catch anyone, doping is a no-lose scenario for those who don't really see it as a moral issue (like a lot of Spanish athletes it seems).

(edit: the bit about the 'not watching tennis if it becomes all about physicality is meant as a joke right? It's quite funny if it was.)

by Calder106 Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:30 pm

LuvSports! wrote:If you look at their other events it is one of their better ones, behind cycling, sailing and canoeing.
I don't see how comparing it to GB is relevant, all i was saying it is one of their stronger events and in the past spain has produced some of the best european ldr's that try to challenge the kenyan/Ethiopian dominance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Athletics_Championships_medalists_(men)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Athletics_Championships_medalists_(women)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_records_in_athletics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_at_the_Olympics

Still don't see why you are highlighting the Spanish athletes. In the womens, records, and olympic links Spain doesn't come out looking that strong. In the mens, Yes they have had a number of medals at 5k and 10k but a) It is quite common in athletics for countries to do well in one discipline but not in others. b) These guys in the main have not been world beaters doing fantastic times. They have just been better than their opposition in Europe (often GB athletes do not even compete at the Europeans when they co-incide with the Commonwealth Games).

Don't think you can just pick the Spanish out of a list of athletics medalists and use it to try and make a point on the evidence here.

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:31 pm

like a lot of Spanish athletes it seems)..

Can you name a few for me please Im interested.

by djlovesyou Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:40 pm

Spain were a real power in the middle distances between the early 90s and remained pretty strong until very recently.

Most of this (from Cacho onwards) was due to a pretty easy going attitude when it comes to blood manipulation.

Marta Dominguez is one recent (very big name) that has been heavily implicated in not only doping but the supply of doping products too. Alberto Garcia, Reyes Estefez and Nuria Fernandez are other big names implicated.

If you haven't heard of these people, please don't be so arrogant to believe that just because you haven't heard of them, that they're not big names.

by hawkeye Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:41 pm

djlovesyou wrote:doping is a no-lose scenario for those who don't really see it as a moral issue (like a lot of Spanish athletes it seems).

Please tell me this is a "joke". Your didn't really mean it? Did you?

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:41 pm

Oh I see djl .. you cant bring one or two to mind even though there are a LOT of Spanish athletes... I wasn´t aware that Fuentes actually made mention of what nationality (apart from a couple of Americans) that he treated.. It would help to narrow it down a bit if we knew ALL the nationalities dont you think ??

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:44 pm

djlovesyou wrote:Spain were a real power in the middle distances between the early 90s and remained pretty strong until very recently.

Most of this (from Cacho onwards) was due to a pretty easy going attitude when it comes to blood manipulation.

Marta Dominguez is one recent (very big name) that has been heavily implicated in not only doping but the supply of doping products too. Alberto Garcia, Reyes Estefez and Nuria Fernandez are other big names implicated.

If you haven't heard of these people, please don't be so arrogant to believe that just because you haven't heard of them, that they're not big names.

That is conjecture, supposition you have no proof of any of this ... implication is not proof djl I should be very very careful what you are saying on a public forum

by **JuliusHMarx** Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:44 pm

dj please clarify 'implicated'.

by djlovesyou Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:53 pm

Please don't get me started on what you can and can't say on a public forum. Nothing I've said is even close to being a problem.

Marta Dominguez was the main target in Operacion Galgo (like Puerto but for athletes.) She was later acquitted for one reason or another.

Some of the the good doctor Fuentes' blood bags have been attributed to her mind you, although of course it just could be a coincidence, but it had her mobile phone number on it.

Not being funny, but do you think a government minister would say this if there wasn't a large problem in Spain?

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/7573907/spain-doping-problem-nation-sports-minister-says

by **JuliusHMarx** Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:00 pm

djlovesyou wrote:Please don't get me started on what you can and can't say on a public forum. Nothing I've said is even close to being a problem.

I'll run it by the Admins. Ultimately, anything anyone says can be a problem if they decide that it is. The forum is run by their rules and decisions.

by djlovesyou Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:02 pm

It's one thing getting in trouble from some jobsworth admin/mod and another thing getting in trouble legally.

I don't care about the former and I'm not worried about the latter, because nothing I've said is an issue.

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:06 pm

You are a master of exaggeration arn´t you

The minister has acknowledged that Spain has a problem not a LARGE problem (have any other Government Ministers of any other country come clean to that) Not even the US Government whose cyclists have been found guilty. The Minister is merely saying they mean to address any such problem. BECAUSE Fuentes is Spanish what makes you believe he treated only Spaniards... money speaks every language in the world.. And credit to the Spanish minister if he does mean to address it that does not mean every Spanish athlete is guilty.. though why should I think that perhaps you would like it to to be so. As I said in one of my previous posts... do be careful what you wish for...

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:34 pm

hawkeye wrote:bogbrush

I wouldn't get involved. Like it or not what Fuentes did wasn't illegal in Spain. His clients were doing nothing illegal by being treated (they may have broken their sports international rules on doping but that is a separate issue.) It would be tricky to say the least to force Fuentes patients identities to be released. Even if the identities were released proving "guilt" would be far from easy and any "exposed" individual could potentially have a case against anyone that identified them. How could an innocent athlete take on this tricky task without huge potential repercussions?

Instead I will ask you some different questions. Imagine you were an innocent athlete implicated in this without any way of proving your innocence. How would you feel? Or imagine the mud that you could sling at someone you didn't "like" knowing that no matter how unfair some of that mud would stick.

I would still like to think that tennis players don't benefit as much as other pro athletes from merely being fitter, stronger and more muscle bound. If that's the direction tennis goes in I certainly won't be watching. But if there is a doping problem in tennis I reckon it would be better to focus on detection methods going forward.

That's exactly the scenario I was addressing, and my attitude would be to publicly demand all lists get published.

by **laverfan** Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:35 pm

The challenge that remains for Spanish authorities is this.

Local laws prior to 2006 did not make the Fuentes approach to sports illegal, even though international laws do not allow that.

Because of such differences, many non-Spanish athletes travelled and/or were treated by Fuentes (perhaps locally).

There were similar issues with RU486 or legal differences for matters of divorce.

Here is another example of national laws being different in countries, which can cause issues.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2232676/Savita-Halappanavar-dies-Irish-doctors-refuse-abortion-saying-This-Catholic-country.html

The NADOs and respective authorities also create conflicts between national and IOC legal framework.

Copyright issues is another example where discrepancy in different legal frameworks leads to very strange issues.

Fuentes (and others Ferrari, Galea, Del Moral,...) et al, should help authorities reduce doping in general, clean up sports. Otherwise the pall of suspicion will always remain.

This is not just a Spanish issue, my adopted country is perhaps worse than Spain as far as doping goes.

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:37 pm

You've moved to East Germany, laverfan?

Haven't you watched the news?

by **laverfan** Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:40 pm

bogbrush wrote:You've moved to East Germany, laverfan?

Haven't you watched the news?

Is there a specific news item I should consider, BB? USofA with Baseball, NFL, Tennis, etc., in the grips of doping scandals, I would assume is currently worse than Spain.

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:41 pm

No, not at all.

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:46 pm

That's exactly the scenario I was addressing, and my attitude would be to publicly demand all lists get published. .

Yes YOU would BB but that is not necessarily the best course of action. As an athlete if I had nothing to reproach myself about, if I had not infringed the law or cheated in my sport I would remain silent. I am an innocent party and why therefore put myself in the spotlight demanding to see a list which I know my name isnt on. Just to satisfy my doubters, or indeed help to fuel speculation.
Those with nothing to hide have nothing to prove. Those athletes who have enough of a fan base to believe in their innocence have it within their power to soldier on regardless. Innocent until proven guilty.

by **laverfan** Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:50 pm

bogbrush wrote:No, not at all.

BB... the other thing I was going to point out is that the Cartel wars south of the border (in Mexico) to control drug routes reflect terribly on the society in the USofA and it's narco habits. It is a sad commentary and one where a lack of demand would, to a large extent, make this war redundant, if not completely stop it.

LA was snitched by his peers, including TH and others. I hope someone in our fair sport has the cojones to name names so the sport can be cleaned.

by hawkeye Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:53 pm

bogbrush wrote:
hawkeye wrote:bogbrush

I wouldn't get involved. Like it or not what Fuentes did wasn't illegal in Spain. His clients were doing nothing illegal by being treated (they may have broken their sports international rules on doping but that is a separate issue.) It would be tricky to say the least to force Fuentes patients identities to be released. Even if the identities were released proving "guilt" would be far from easy and any "exposed" individual could potentially have a case against anyone that identified them. How could an innocent athlete take on this tricky task without huge potential repercussions?

Instead I will ask you some different questions. Imagine you were an innocent athlete implicated in this without any way of proving your innocence. How would you feel? Or imagine the mud that you could sling at someone you didn't "like" knowing that no matter how unfair some of that mud would stick.

I would still like to think that tennis players don't benefit as much as other pro athletes from merely being fitter, stronger and more muscle bound. If that's the direction tennis goes in I certainly won't be watching. But if there is a doping problem in tennis I reckon it would be better to focus on detection methods going forward.

That's exactly the scenario I was addressing, and my attitude would be to publicly demand all lists get published.

Well yes but did you read the first bit of my comment? As an individual what do you think you could gain from demanding the lists get published? Do you think you would be successful? And just imagining with great effort and legal help you managed to get a copy of the list (I doubt this would happen but there's no harm imagining) Do you think your name would be cleared or do you think your involvement would lead to questioning that the list may not be complete? What do you think the implications might be of having all those exposed athletes angry with you? Bearing in mind that the legal justification for exposing them in these circumstances would be shaky to say the least...

Oh and finally what effect might all of this (and it is quite a lot) have on your backhand?

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:55 pm

The way to stop the horror of drug fuelled crime is to legalise it all. Same result, just minus the damage to everyone else.

by User 774433 Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:56 pm

bogbrush wrote:The way to stop the horror of drug fuelled crime is to legalise it all. Same result, just minus the damage to everyone else.

No it's not.

by bogbrush Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:57 pm

HE, the premise is that you are already implicated by rumour.

Demanding the list makes an impression regardless of outcome. There's no downside.

by Haddie-nuff Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:58 pm

bogbrush wrote:The way to stop the horror of drug fuelled crime is to legalise it all. Same result, just minus the damage to everyone else.

That is a somewhat different scenario and the subject of another thread I would suggest.

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