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Tennis to step up drug fight in light of Lance Armstrong scandal

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CaledonianCraig
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Tennis to step up drug fight in light of Lance Armstrong scandal - Page 7 Empty Tennis to step up drug fight in light of Lance Armstrong scandal

Post by LuvSports! Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Lance Armstrong's admission that he took drugs to help him win all seven of his Tour de France titles has put performance enhancing substances in the spotlight.
Now tennis has been brought into the debate with former world number four Guy Forget claiming he was beaten by rivals who took drugs.
Three players - Ryan Newport from the United States, Bulgarian Dimitar Kutrovsky and Italian Filippo Calorosi - are currently suspended from playing for taking drugs and Forget believes they are not the only men on the circuit guilty of doping.
BBC Sport speaks to current and ex players, coaches and officials in charge of testing to try and discover if tennis has a drug problem.

Drugs in tennis

The Men's Tennis Council began drug testing in the late 1980s with the focus mainly on recreational drugs. The testing was extended to include performance-enhancing drugs when the ATP Tour was formed in 1990.

Guy Forget claims he played against rivals who had taken drugs
But Guy Forget, who was ranked the fourth best player in the world in 1991, is convinced he played against players who were doping.
He says: "I have lost matches against guys who beat me with an unfair advantage because they were taking drugs.
"For sure, it has happened. I can look at myself in the mirror knowing I have never taken anything.
"When I played there were no controls at all so why wouldn't you cheat the system."

The situation now

The International Tennis Federation (ITF) now leads a unified Tennis Anti-Doping Programme applying across all tennis events.
The ITF carried out 131 blood tests both in and out of competition in 2011, the last year for which figures are available. That was alongside 2,019 urine tests.
Now the ITF are planning to introduce an athlete biological passport (ABP) which allows officials to collect and compare biological data and spot variances that suggest doping.

I feel tennis is clean, I do very much. For the amount of times that we get tested throughout the year and as random as they are, definitely

Maria Sharapova
It is an improvement many in the game believe is needed.
Forget added: "I don't feel our sport is clean. I am sure now as we speak there are some guys that are cheating. You cannot say tennis is not touched by this poisonous thing.
"I think it is a minority probably, but that is why Roger Federer and the other guys says we should put more money into blood test and controls because we should fight this any way we can."
Australian coach Darren Cahill, who has coached Lleyton Hewitt and Andre Agassi in the past, says on Twitter: "Our testing program is inadequate. That's why no-one can stand up and speak out. It's gone backwards in recent years."
Current world number one Novak Djokovic recently complained the number of blood tests he has undergone has dropped in the last year.
He said: "I wasn't tested with blood for last six, seven months. It was more regularly in last two, three years ago. I don't know the reason why they stopped it."

Fighting back

Dr. Stuart Miller, who oversees the ITF's anti-doping programme, claims education as much as detection is the best way to cure the problems of drugs in sport.
But he is an advocate of plans to bring in an ABP to make it easier to find the drug cheats.
Miller says: "We think we can improve by introducing what is known as the athlete biological passport, which is a blood-based testing programme which allows you to establish individual baseline parameters.
"That is not in operation at the moment. But we're looking very, very closely at it and I think that there's a reasonably good chance that that will be operational probably towards the end of 2013.
"It takes a long time to set up. There's a number of constraints and conditions that you have to satisfy, you can't just turn a switch."
What is a athlete biological passport
An ABP is an electronic document about the athlete that contains certain biomarkers from through his career.

If these markers change dramatically from the historic levels it alerts officials that the athlete might be doping.

Miller went on to answer Forget's complaints.
"I think we need to put a couple of things into context," he said. "Firstly I think Forget answered his own question when he said back at the time when he was playing, anti-doping was very different.
"There was no such thing as the World Anti-Doping Agency, there was no list of prohibited substances that all the sports signed up to and actually tennis was one of the pioneering sports in introducing anti-doping testing back in Forget's time.
"Granted, it was for a different list of prohibited substances - it was mainly recreational substances - and he's right, there wasn't as much testing, but tennis was pioneering at that particular time. And it's come a long way since that time, when he was playing."

Is tennis clean?

The leading players have thrown their support behind initiatives to weed out rivals who use drugs to enhance their performance but many are content that the sport is not on a par with the level of doping that has been uncovered in cycling.
World number three Andy Murray says: "I think all sports are trying to improve their doping controls.
"If that's more blood testing or the biological passports, that's something we need to do and improve in tennis, as well.

The three men currently banned for drug taking
Filippo Calorosi (Ita)
Dimitar Kutrovsky (Bul)
Ryan Newport (USA)

Four time grand slam winner Maria Sharapova is confident she is competing on a level playing field.
The Russian says: "I feel tennis is clean, I do very much. For the amount of times that we get tested throughout the year and as random as they are, definitely."
Tennis great Martina Navratilova, who won 18 Grand Slam titles, accepts doping has taken place in tennis but not a large degree.
She says: "There is very stringent drug testing going on and it has to be done, because there obviously has been some cheating going on as a few people have been caught.
"But overall, I think we have a pretty clean sport. You know that Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal or any of those guys wouldn't do anything like what Lance Armstrong was doing.
"I think tennis is doing a pretty good job, at least from what I see."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/21139622

chin not sure about this one. thoughts?

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:57 am

I think that the tennis profession and its players have a chance here to prove to the sporting world that THEIR sport at least is clean. That there is no room for players who dope. Hence my suggestion that the players themselves help fund if not fund entirely the testing. It is quite possible to make the contributions fair according to their earnings .. this may encourage the APT and WADA to jump on the wagon. I think it would put pressure on other sports to follow. I may be making this sound a bit simplistic but I really cannot see why this or something close to it couldnt work.
I think more responsibility and pressure should be put on the coaches and management of players to be vigilent to help achieve a clean image for all those within the profession players and non players alike.
.

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Post by dummy_half Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:54 am

HN

I think you are making things too complicated - the tournament organisers and/or ATP and WTA have sufficient resources to extend anti-doping sufficiently to make it an effective deterrent if they choose to do so.

My suspicion is that tennis is a largely clean sport (by comparison with cycling, track and field, cross coutry skiing etc), but that there will undoubtedly be a proportion of players who bend the rules in the hope of gaining an advantage.

I do feel a bit sorry for Nadal that his name has been linked to Operacion Puerto simply by virtue of him being Spanish and Dr Fuentes saying that in addition to cyclists he treated tennis players, footballers and track athletes

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Post by Calder106 Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:04 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:I think that the tennis profession and its players have a chance here to prove to the sporting world that THEIR sport at least is clean. That there is no room for players who dope. Hence my suggestion that the players themselves help fund if not fund entirely the testing. It is quite possible to make the contributions fair according to their earnings .. this may encourage the APT and WADA to jump on the wagon. I think it would put pressure on other sports to follow. I may be making this sound a bit simplistic but I really cannot see why this or something close to it couldnt work.
I think more responsibility and pressure should be put on the coaches and management of players to be vigilent to help achieve a clean image for all those within the profession players and non players alike.
.

I'm with you on this. As I tried to say earlier in this thread although the responsibility for the testing lies with the authorities the fact that the top players are saying they want more and better testing is a positive. However it's easy to say you support something if you know it is unlikely to happen (we see it in politics daily). Therefore I hope that the players who are saying this are lobbying and working with the authorties behind the scenes to ensure that testing becomes more comprehensive.
How its funded I'm not sure. I can see that for players lower down the rankings helping to fund this would be a financial burden and may be difficult to get approved. However the suggestions of a cut in prize money at the top events (or the events helping to finance) would seem a logical move.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:09 am

But like I say where is the incentive for the players? I am trying to put myself in a tennis players position here. If I were a player who knew was clean I wouldn't be wanting to cough up money (especially if my earnings weren't great) just to prove what I already knew and to boot to get the discomfort of the tests. I do so agree that more extrensive drug tests should be hapoening now in the current climate and not less as Roger Federer is suggesting is the case.
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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:32 am

Yes but my system could work for all players if there were a least a small contribution from each obviously rising according to earnings... ie a sliding scale on a percentage basis. The point here is that it needs to be from THE PLAYERS themselves on voluntary basis not something that is compulsory. If all young players come into the sport with an already established system of dope controlling knowing that they have to help keep their profession clean and then if Tennis was seen by other sports as being at the forefront of attempting to eradicate doping across the whole sporting world. And all done by the players themselves. Others would start asking questions and those sports who did not follow suit would soon come under the microscope. Yes I know Im making it sound simple and there would doubtless be hurdles to overcome.. but someone has to start somewhere and it is my belief that the eradication of doping must come from the players themselves.

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Post by Calder106 Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:37 am

CC not going to disagree with any of that. I've no idea how much it would cost per year to fund a comprehensive dope testing program. However it is funded it needs to be done. Given the status in the game of the players who have spoken about it recently I would have thought they have enough clout with the authorities to ensure it is properly addressed.

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Post by lydian Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:37 am

Hmmm, not sure on this one Haddie.

Why take it from the players? Its the tournaments and the sport itself that should govern.
Also, why should Nadal pay anymore than a guy who lost in the first round...why is the onus on the winner to prove himself clean...that's implying winners are more likely cheats from the outset. Anyone who wins deserves the prize money offered to them. That said, the guy losing in R1's in ATP or Challengers (because remember this cant just be ATP level) probably cant afford to pay lots back anyway when they get $500-1000 measily payout.

I say just finance it from the ATP/ITF and tournaments and reduce prize money accordingly. ATP/ITF is awash with money.

Then those tournaments that didn't drug test would see become conspicuous by their absence. I believe all events should test...each one being a mini-Olympics. No excuses, player registers on arrival and takes a test...upon losing takes another test. With a max. of 4-5 out of comp tests to keep them on their toes. That's around 50 injections for the average player in a year...one a week, its hardly treating them like pin-cushions. In the interests of the sport they love, we love as paying fans, something needs to be done to show there is a clean slate before anything big happens and its tarnished with a "cycling profile".
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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:43 am

Yes Haddie nuff but just say there are players doping at the moment they'd be against it but if it were brought in from the governing body as mandatory and stringent with bans issued to those that don't comply then that sends out the sort of message we should be getting as in there is no room in tennis for drug cheats.
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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:16 pm

Yes Craig but then that is always going to be the case if it isn´t addressed and continues as status quo. A chicken and egg situation.. but from my perspective however you see that the money should be found for such an exercise I think the message should go out loud and clear that it is the PLAYERS who want their profession cleaned up (if it isn´t already). But talk is cheap and its only those at the top i.e. Fed, Rafa, Murray who are voicing anything.. Someone has to pick up the baton and run with it .. Lip Service isnt good enough.

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Post by bogbrush Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:39 pm

It will come from the players if prize money is reduced, and quite right too. It is they primarily who benefit from a clean reputation.
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Post by lydian Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:14 pm

Getting players to pay for what is effectively self-testing just isn't going to happen because the issue isn't endemic in tennis. Unless Fuentes shows different, and I don't think it will.

The 'authorities' (ITF, etc) need to make the carpet move, and the players be publicly seen to be supporting it. Now if you were talking about cycling I would support competitor-driven action.
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Post by hawkeye Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:22 pm

It's quite funny that some player(s) have offered to pay for extra drug testing measures out of their "own" prize money. What next? They will be offering to provide stadiums and maybe pay the wages of the many staff who work hard to put on tennis tournaments. Don't they realize how things work? The prize money that they "own" wouldn't even exist without the whole infrastructure that brings the tennis show to the public. Making sure that the sport is fair including deciding and carrying drug testing is part of this infrastructure. Only when all this has been paid for can the allocation of prize money be calculated.

Also deciding and carrying out drug testing should be carried out by a body that is completely independent to the players including funding. Of course! Ha ha!

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Post by laverfan Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:38 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Er, a did this player dope poll? You cannot be serious Smile

Not this player, but his opponents. Wink

Is Forget exaggerating using this ...

Bucharest, Romania; 11.09.1995; GP; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R32 Bohdan Ulihrach (CZE) 43 L 4-6, 3-6

... or Rusedski...

Adelaide, Australia; 01.01.1996; GP; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R32 Greg Rusedski (GBR) 37 L 7-6(1), 6-7(6), 6-7(5)

Wimbledon, England; 26.06.1995; GS; Outdoor: Grass; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R64 Greg Rusedski (GBR) 60 L 6-1, 6-7(5), 6-7(4), 5-7


... but both were cleared in 2003... http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/6458.php


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Post by laverfan Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:47 pm

hawkeye wrote:It's quite funny that some player(s) have offered to pay for extra drug testing measures out of their "own" prize money. What next? They will be offering to provide stadiums and maybe pay the wages of the many staff who work hard to put on tennis tournaments. Don't they realize how things work? The prize money that they "own" wouldn't even exist without the whole infrastructure that brings the tennis show to the public. Making sure that the sport is fair including deciding and carrying drug testing is part of this infrastructure. Only when all this has been paid for can the allocation of prize money be calculated.

To promote a clean sport that provides living for Fedalovicurray and Berlocq, Zeballos alike. Wink From a pure financial perspective, the players do provide a means to generate income, that then pays for the infrastructure, correct?

hawkeye wrote:Also deciding and carrying out drug testing should be carried out by a body that is completely independent to the players including funding. Of course! Ha ha!

Is your government independent of the taxes you pay? Would you consider the taxes you pay as bribery for the local traffic police not to give you speedng tickets? chin

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:01 pm

I believe also that the prize money "they own" wouldn´t be much if they brought a doping ridden show to the public.. and therefore there would not be any infrastructure anyway. Would you pay to watch this sport if you knew every player was doping..? I certainly wouldn´t and so there wouldn´t be much in the way of prize money anyway.
The players themselves surely must see that they are on a long slippery slope if they themselves cant or wont finance the tests then they must lean heavily on the organisations that will. It can only be in everyone´s best interest not least the sport itself that the buck stops with SOMEONE. It seems to me that Armstrong and Fuentes between them have created a monster ..someone has to be brave enough to tackle it.

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Post by dummy_half Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:15 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:I believe also that the prize money "they own" wouldn´t be much if they brought a doping ridden show to the public.. and therefore there would not be any infrastructure anyway. Would you pay to watch this sport if you knew every player was doping..? I certainly wouldn´t and so there wouldn´t be much in the way of prize money anyway.
The players themselves surely must see that they are on a long slippery slope if they themselves cant or wont finance the tests then they must lean heavily on the organisations that will. It can only be in everyone´s best interest not least the sport itself that the buck stops with SOMEONE. It seems to me that Armstrong and Fuentes between them have created a monster ..someone has to be brave enough to tackle it.

First paragraph - Look at major sports in America. The NFL still has huge money and support, even though everyone knows (even if prepared to turn a blind eye to the fact) that most of the players are roided up. Similarly, MLB a decade ago had huge steroid issues but the crowds loved the game that this produced, with monster home run hitters in every team. Now that the league is seriously addressing the doping issues, the popularity of the game has actually dropped.

Second paragraph - If the players (generally) are clean and want to be seen to be clean, they have a responsibility (probably through the players council and the public statements of a few of the highest profile players as individuals) to push the ATP / ITF / Tournament organisers to provide a realistic anti-doping programme. I think the recent comments from the Top 4 suggest that they are aware of their responsibilies in this regard, especially given the post Armstrong situation.

Oh, and Armstrong and Fuentes didn't create the monster by any means - systematic doping certainly goes back to at least the 60s in Eastern Europe (and very possibly in the US as well), blood doping was definitely in use by 1980 (with strong rumours that it was used by Lasse Viren and other Finnish endurance athletes in the 70s, noting that it was not outlawed at the time), with EPO use becoming endemic in endurance sports from the start of the 90s - with better EPO tests, blood doping has returned to the forefront over the last 7 or 8 years, with Fuentes and the Italian doctors (Ferrari, Ceccini) well to the fore. The question is quite how much these types of doping have moved away from pure endurance sports into more skill-based sports - tennis does seem to be at least making the right noises in this regard, while football appears to be totally ignoring the rapidly changing landscape of anti-doping in professional sport.

I think Lydian's suggested program probably goes too far, but each tournament should have some doping control (say all semi-finalists plus a randomly selected 5 to 10% of the field - this being both blood and urine testing). I'm not sure quite how high the costs for this would be, but I suspect the costs for the entire tour could be covered by a 10% reduction in the prizes for say the losing QFs and above in MS1000 and GS tournaments (of course the players reaching these stages of the major tournaments are hardly going to miss £25k - £100k from their winnings).

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:47 pm

Armstrong and Fuentes created the CURRENT monster which is the one that needs to be addressed. The Fuentes trial and Armstrong in particular have brought the problem to the forefront and to the public notice. Chris Hoy has already voiced that his profession now need to meet this problem head on and I agree. The tennis world need to be aware that because of the rumours that have surrounded some of the players that they are in the spotlight and personally I believe AGAIN at the risk of repeating myself that the players themselves should be involved in cleaning up their own profession there are numerous ways the necessary finance can be raised

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Post by LuvSports! Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:32 pm

Piers Newbery ‏@piersnewbery
Barbora Zahlavova Strýcová tests positive for stimulant sibutramine. ITF does not dispute her account, 6-month back-dated ban ends 15 April.

mad

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Post by djlovesyou Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 pm

Diet pill. Not sure why you're mad.

Just some low ranked player they can bust and use as 'proof' that they're actually trying to catch dopers.

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Post by LuvSports! Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:46 pm

It is just for that reason why!
Like you say, it will appease the masses and make it look like they are doing something, despite it not being the case imo.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:47 pm

Nothing to do with the ATP of course, since it's a woman.

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Post by djlovesyou Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:48 pm

Ah ok, fair enough. I thought you were mad that she wasn't banned for longer.

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Post by LuvSports! Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:49 pm

who said it wasn't a woman? i just saw this on twitter and thought i would post it.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:51 pm

Nobody, just pointing out that it wasn't the ATP that caught anyone.

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Post by djlovesyou Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:53 pm

Anti-doping is the jurisdiction of the ITF anyway.

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Post by LuvSports! Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:56 pm

Everytime i see "back-dated bans" it just reminds me of the multitude of diffo cyclists on them Sad. The list really does go on!

I think mutu was banned for this. I've deffo seen it on the wada prohibited list from reading but not sure what it does.

I'll check it out, unless someone beats me to it!


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Post by User 774433 Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:56 pm

Good to see the ITF taking action.
Even if it was diet pills, she should have been more weary and cautious- ignorance is not an excuse.

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Post by djlovesyou Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:00 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Good to see the ITF taking action.
Even if it was diet pills, she should have been more weary and cautious- ignorance is not an excuse.

Just a shame the only people who get banned are careless but not intending to cheat. I'm all for strict liability, I'm not suggesting she should be let off.

The cynical and prolific cheating filthbags get a free pass, time after time. That's the issue. Even when the courts get involved, they still get a free pass in certain countries.

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Post by LuvSports! Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:01 pm

Sibutramine is a drug that is authorised on the international pharmaceutical market only to be used as an anorexigen (appetite inhibitor) for controlled loss of weight. It has an action mechanism identical to other drugs used as antidepressants and has stimulant effects: tachycardia, nervousness, palpitations, hypertension, etc. This type of effect may be very damaging in certain persons. Its normal dose is 10-15 mg/day.

Sibutramine is not a substance that initially produces significant help in the performance of an athlete as deliberate consumption of sibutramine is instead damaging or in any case uncertain for any type of competition in which Mrs Edita Daniute participates as it may alter, for example, coordination.
We know from studies carried out that sibutramine may cause adverse effects on motor coordination and have significant risks for health. At
the same time, it may have stimulant effects that reduce the sensation of fatigue.
http://www.worlddancesport.org/doc/idsf/disciplinary_council/IDSF_Disciplinary_Council_Decision_061117.pdf

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Post by Guest Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:44 pm

Just been reading the Daily Fail and GS tournaments are now to increase the amount of money invested in drugs testing and anti doping. Apparently GS tournaments were only contributing £100,000 to testing and in general last year tennis invest only £1.05M into testing and anti doping. Wimbledon has announced a 100% increase in funds it will contribute for anti doping and testing this year and the other Slams are expected to follow. There is mounting pressure on the WTA and ITF to increase their funds into testing and anti doping too.

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Post by lydian Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:07 pm

Good on them, I'm all for mandatory in/out testing at all events, and it just becomes the "price you pay" for being a pro player.
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Post by Guest Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:19 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/9901202/International-Tennis-Federation-backs-Andy-Murray-and-Roger-Federers-call-for-tougher-anti-doping-measures.html

Seriously first dope test carried out in 1986?!?!?!

Where is my * marker pen! Wink

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Post by lydian Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:33 am

Nadal calling for regular tests too
http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8619460

He and Federer finally agree on something Shocked
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Post by Henman Bill Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 pm

It's been announced just some minutes ago, via the BBC, that tennis will be introduding a biological passport, something the tennis authorities had previously stated that they would look at.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/21699175

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Post by LuvSports! Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:38 pm

It certainly has polarised opinion in cycling, i wonder how well it will work in tennis. It's progress i guess.

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Post by laverfan Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:06 am

9. Fuentes, on the third day of the trial, to the presiding judge: “If you ask me, I will identify all the codes of all the bags of my clients.” Judge’s response: “No, I will not ask you. In that instance the right of the defence not to answer prevails, and I’m not going to ask you to do it.” Arguably what could have been (but wasn’t) the crunch moment of the trial so far: Fuentes says he knows exactly whom the 223 bags of blood - of which 51 have not been located - belong to. The judge says it will not be necessary to reveal that.

Very interesting that the judge does not want names. What is the judge afraid of?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/top-10-quotes-from-the-operacion-puerto-trial

Why does not Fuentes write a letter to newspapers and reveal this list?

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Post by summerblues Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:48 am

laverfan wrote:Why does not Fuentes write a letter to newspapers and reveal this list?
I suspect he may be bound by the doctor-patient confidentiality and might be opening himself up to more lawsuits if he did that. I would love to see all the names and find it annoying that we may never see them, but it is not all that straightforward.

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Post by lydian Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:10 am

Also, isn't it then implicating those revealed as being guilty when the names could either simply be wrong, or the bags are just blood designated for things like PRP, or the codes are incorrect, or the bags have been 'doctored' (pardon the pun). Those bags are fraught with difficulty and I don't think you could have a case to prosecute or convict from his reveal alone. It's a legal minefield that opens up lawsuits all over the place - hence he says "it is the right of the defence". This much anticipated case will end up being a damp squib.
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Post by djlovesyou Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:52 pm

Lydian, you sound like an Armstrong defender.

So if he says X,Y,Z tennis players were given transfusions, you would simply say that he's lying and the poor little angels are completely innocent and part of a witch-hunt, blah, blah, yawn, yawn?

Those cheats need to just come out and admit it, no matter how many Tour de Roland Garros's they've won. The problem is, there is no driving force behind catching anyone in tennis. All these new measures that tennis is bringing in are simply PR stunts. Biological passport and a few extra blood tennis. Big whoop.

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Post by summerblues Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:27 pm

lydian wrote:Also, isn't it then implicating those revealed as being guilty when the names could either simply be wrong, or the bags are just blood designated for things like PRP, or the codes are incorrect, or the bags have been 'doctored' (pardon the pun)......
I think this is less of a worry. In practice, it is rather likely that the names he would reveal are all cheats. But I just suspect it is not legally so simple to do.

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Post by laverfan Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:50 pm

lydian wrote:Also, isn't it then implicating those revealed as being guilty when the names could either simply be wrong, or the bags are just blood designated for things like PRP, or the codes are incorrect, or the bags have been 'doctored' (pardon the pun). Those bags are fraught with difficulty and I don't think you could have a case to prosecute or convict from his reveal alone. It's a legal minefield that opens up lawsuits all over the place - hence he says "it is the right of the defence". This much anticipated case will end up being a damp squib.

Do you think the doctor has only blood bags to be able to recognise his customers? The evidence was under the control of Guardia, and 'doctoring' would point to their ineptness, which in itself is problematic. No one is saying that such a list alone is enough for prosecution, but it can be a starting point. For an operation of this type, there would be extensive record-keeping. Imagine if the label was incorrect and Basso got Ullrich's blood or vice-a-versa.

If Fuentes is silenced, the case will 'definitely' end up a damp squib.

summerblues wrote:I suspect he may be bound by the doctor-patient confidentiality and might be opening himself up to more lawsuits if he did that. I would love to see all the names and find it annoying that we may never see them, but it is not all that straightforward.

I assume that Spanish Law allows such confidentiality to be superceded under exceptional circumstances, under the auspices of court confidentiality. Lydian, do you know?

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Post by summerblues Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:24 pm

laverfan wrote:I assume that Spanish Law allows such confidentiality to be superceded under exceptional circumstances,
I myself have no idea but imagine you may be right. I was specifically referring to the difficulties of Fuentes simply giving the list to the media of his own accord. I imagine in the court they would have been able to get the list if the judge chose to ask for it. Sadly, I expect we will never see the names.

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Post by laverfan Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:41 pm

summerblues wrote: Sadly, I expect we will never see the names.

Perhaps, some day, in a memoir (a la Agassi). Wink

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Post by Henman Bill Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:55 pm

Well the Spaniards are keen to make themselves look guilty, that is for sure.

I am tempted to asterisk Euro 2008, World Cup 2010 and Euro 2012 if we don't get any footballers calling for the list publication...

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Post by Henman Bill Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:04 pm

From a well known blog focusing on possible drug use in tennis, comes the out of competition tests for 2012. Interesting, that out of 100 of hundreds of players, Rafa was the only one receiving 7 or more out of competition tests. It could be that he was targeted deliberately, however it's also possible, and perhaps more likely, that they tested him more out of competition because they wanted to make up for the lack of in competition tests due to him missing tournaments.

2012 Year End Rank Name IC OOC
1 Novak Djokovic 7+ 1-3
2 Roger Federer 4-6 1-3
3 Andy Murray 7+ 1-3
4 Rafael Nadal 1-3 7+
5 David Ferrer 7+ 4-6
6 Tomas Berdych 7+ 4-6
7 Juan Martin Del Potro 7+ 1-3
8 Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 7+ 1-3
9 Janko Tipsarevic 7+ 1-3
10 Richard Gasquet 7+ 1-3

EDIT: The first number refers to the "IC" in competition and secondly to out of competition.


Last edited by Henman Bill on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarity.)

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Post by Henman Bill Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:06 pm

By the way, in the women's tour, I am unimpressed by Serena Williams having the lowest amount of tests of any top woman player. It may be because she played less tournaments. Personally I would at least double or treble the tests of any player that tends to hide in a panic room when the testers come calling.....but I'm not in charge.

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Post by djlovesyou Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:21 pm

Probably more due to the fact that Spain's national anti-doping agency isn't exactly trusted to do a proper job.

Uk:Sport and other nations respective anti-doping agencies are usually responsible for a lot of OOC testing and these tests don't show up on the ITF testing stats.

This is similar to the fact that Jamaica and Kenya receive far more OOC tests from the IAAF than an athlete from the USA or Western Europe. It's not that they're targeted per se, it's just that the international federation needs to pick up the slack when they're not getting tested enough from their home country.

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Post by dummy_half Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:57 am

For those discussing the Fuentes trial, it is important to remember what this trial is about from a legal perspective - it is a trial of a doctor and certain associates for the potentially illegal and unsafe treatments they gave to sports people.

What it is not is a trial of those sports people regarding their use of doping products and other illegal techniques.

Fuentes 'offer' to list names was really just grandstanding, in the knowledge that the judge wouldn't allow it because it is not a legitiamte part of his defence. The fact that he would probably name some very significant stars of Spanish sport (beyond the cyclists already implicated - probably the biggest casualty would be Spanish football) would also make it a very political issue.

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Post by laverfan Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:30 am

@HB... Nadal was out for several months and at home, so the OOC numbers going up for him is linked to his absence.

French sports journalist Stephane Mandard took research further in an article in the "Le Monde" daily. He told ARD in 2008 that he had met with Fuentes, who showed him proof of doping among professional footballers from Spain's top league clubs.
"He [Fuentes] showed me medical records of players for Real Betis, Sevilla, Valencia, Real Madrid and Barcelona, with detailed doping plans for an entire season," Mandard said.

In 2011, however, "Le Monde" was ordered to pay15,000 Euros ($20,000) in damages to Barcelona and Real Madrid respectively for making these allegations .


http://www.dw.de/the-fuentes-doping-scandal/a-16550737


@D_H... Fuentes (and his wife) has (have) also made allegations about the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, which from a Spanish perspective would make such a revelation tantamount to state-approval a la the East German and Chinese programs.

In an interview with La Provincia newspaper, the wife of Dr Eufemiano Fuentes, Cristina Perez, a European 400m bronze medallist in 1987, said: "I know what happened at the Barcelona Olympics in 1992."

Perez said "many Olympic medals" were won by Spain thanks to her husband. Spain won a record 13 gold medals at the Barcelona Games.

"It's a Pandora's Box and if opened one day, it could bring down sport," Perez said.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jPb4a9Mge6d8kmhp69yuh7UbdYog

I agree there is bit of grandstanding going on.

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Post by Henman Bill Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:02 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21903873

"Eufemiano Fuentes, the doctor at the centre of the Operation Puerto blood-doping scandal, claims he is owed money by Real Madrid.....

Fuentes hinted inside and outside court that he may be willing to reveal his full client list to the World Anti-Doping Agency if it was mutually beneficial. He is also reported to be writing a book about his colourful career as a sports doctor."

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