Could the Amlin final be a higher standard than the Heineken cup final?

by hugo124 Tue 22 Jan 2013, 8:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

As a contemporary, neutral , noble spectator, it seems almost acrimonious to suggest such a feat however I think his might be the case. Looking at the final 8 teams in both cups, the final of the amlin from my birds eye view will be leinster v Toulouse. Heineken cup will be clermont v Toulon/Le.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 24 Jan 2013, 11:13 am

beshocked wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Amlin_Challenge_Cup_pool_stage

Ah! Now I see where your hatred of both Connacht and the Ranking system comes from. Smile

In fairness to Connacht they did the double over both Worcester and (a probably disinterested) Montpelier that year. (not bad for a sh1t team)

Personally. While I can see the logic of teams that have fought their way through the pool stages of the Amlin being disgruntled about teams "dropping down" from the HC, I suppose the idea is to improve the profile of the Comp. Which will benefit all teams who compete in it, in the long term.

So you could say that I have "mixed feelings" on the drop down.

Perhaps If some HC teams make the final this year, more people will go and more will watch. The comp may grow in stature as a result. 10 HC titles in it v 5 in the HC proper.

After all don't the PRL in England want to "improve" the Amlin. That's why they want to change the structure of European club competition. Wink

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 24 Jan 2013, 11:19 am

Kingshu wrote:Hopefully it will be resolved in the h-cup talks.

I don't mind teams dropping down as am used to it from Champions League, its the lopsided numbers that annoy me, some runners up are in H-cup q finals, some in almin, and some are out of Europe. Puts to much luck into the draw.

(mind you it wa though whoever got Zebre would have the best runners up spot but this wasn't the case)

Leinster are hitting form again, and are one of the best teams in Europe, their presence really bring up the Almin, however the 8 in the almin on average, would be lower than the H-cup last 8. Toulouse have been a bit like Munster, big team, just not at where they were a few years ago, but still dangerous.

Ranking points also need redone, instead of last 4 years, I think use the rugby ranking on Eurotable, but increase it to last 60 games.

Hopefully the whole ranking is redone with the tournament.

I know this isn't the place for it, but the Rabo Unions idea of 32 teams does have merit, 8 groups of 4, top 2 in each pool play knock out for cup, bottom 2 in each pool play for Shield, removes the lopsidedness, and less chance of the 2 extremes of groups of death and groups of life, should overall be more even, also gives more teams a chance of getting into the main event.

A lot of posts came in there as I had to go out in the middle of writing mine.

I think the lopsided qualification is what MAKES the HC exciting. We have to wait until the last game of the last round before we know what the make up of the QFs will be.

If you had the top 2 in every group qualifying, the pools would mostly be over before Christmas.

by HammerofThunor Thu 24 Jan 2013, 11:21 am

Kingshu wrote:I know this isn't the place for it, but the Rabo Unions idea of 32 teams does have merit, 8 groups of 4, top 2 in each pool play knock out for cup, bottom 2 in each pool play for Shield, removes the lopsidedness, and less chance of the 2 extremes of groups of death and groups of life, should overall be more even, also gives more teams a chance of getting into the main event.

Resulting in even more uneven games as the better teams are spread out even more. Also has no provision whatsoever for the non-6 nations domestic teams.

Dropping teams down to the Amlin only increases interest in the knockout stages. But it's the pool stages that need improvement.

Andy, as far as I was aware the money for running the third tier would largely come out of the money generated by the 1st and 2nd tiers. At least that would be the suggestion. If there was a gateway from the 3rd tier to the 2nd (winner and possibly runner-up) then it may well draw interest in the countries involved. That would lead to whole competition gaining more interest in these countries, etc, etc. I've no idea how many people in Russia watch the ENC (or whatever it's called) and how many watch the 6 Nations. You'd think they'd prefer watching their own teams.

by beshocked Thu 24 Jan 2013, 11:56 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
beshocked wrote:
whocares wrote:if ERC reduces the number of teams in the HC to 4 groups with all runner ups to qualify for the QF, this would be sorted. Equally we would have some better teams in the AC.

How many teams in each group? 4? Surely that would hurt the development of the smaller clubs in the Amlin?

This drop down also makes it even more difficult for some of the lesser sides in the Amlin to make a breakthrough.

To add insult to injury the semi finals in the Amlin are random! Potentially Leinster or Toulouse could get a home semi final.

So wheres the glory in winning the patronising cup for sh1t teams?
Should we just have a special cup for dragons connacht and the Liechtenstein second division women's 15 to make it easier for them?
It's a bit galling to support a hc team that busted a gut to qualify on merit , pulls a group with the best teams from 3 countries, misses out on the group stages on trise scored because they didn't have Edinburgh in their pool and then see a team who finished woefully low in their domestic league have to battle the 14 placed French teams second 15 and some Romanians to get into a cup quarter final.

The amlin is a joke currently. I believe it's only lw of yhe Englishclubs who lost two games and noneed were beaten by non English or French clubs. This is why the hc shake up proposals want stronger teams from the Rabo nation's in thrre to beef up the competition and make it mean something
The big name teams dropping in is one of the few things that adds some glamour to it, not to mention tv crowds and sponsors

Hey! Edinburgh are a bloody good side. Did you know that last season they reached the HC semi finals? Whistle

Who would you define as sh1t? I wouldn't say Gloucester and Wasps who are both pushing for AP playoff spots are.

I want to see the likes of Connacht,Zebre and Edinburgh drop down because I don't thinking the beatings they take in the HC help.

Winning matches even against weaker opposition helps boost confidence. I want to see that instead of the current drop down system.

Jenifer I don't think Connacht are necessarily sh1t. I don't think they are a good side though. One of the weakest sides in the HC but in the Amlin they would be competitive. They have had some notable victories recently to be fair to them.

by Kingshu Thu 24 Jan 2013, 12:31 pm

I know you hate Connacht, but this year they finish above,
Sale Sharks, Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Exeter Chiefs, Glasgow, Zebre, Benetton Treviso and Edinburgh

in ERC ranking they will have 7 points next year, which will prob keep them as a 3rd seed team again next year, so can be said to deserve to be there than all the 4th seeds.

in prob the fairest rating
http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent
they are 29th, above Sale sharks, Edinburgh, Benetton Treviso (who you believe should be there).

Anyway, I know you don't like them being there as they got in by Leinster winning it, not in there own right, (fair chance they'll be there next year as well, if Ulster/Munster win H-cup or Leinster win Almin).

But to qualify in there own right they would have had to finish higher than the H-cup finalists, or Q-finalist. that means above one of the top 8 teams in europe, including top 2. In contrast if in England they would just have to be in the top 6 in England, not top 8 in europe, so would be easier. Connacht have the hardest way of qualifing than any other team in Europe. So a bit of slack for them.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 24 Jan 2013, 12:44 pm

Hoping Leinster or Munster win the hc hasn't proved that difficult for them in recent years

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 24 Jan 2013, 1:09 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hoping Leinster or Munster win the hc hasn't proved that difficult for them in recent years

Reckon Ulster are the favourites of the 2 Irish teams still in it this year.

If Munster can beat Quins away and then Clermont/Montpelier away, I will be as surprised as I will be pleased.

Happily for Connacht they have another chance if Leinster put some effort into winning the Amlin. (Which I hope they do,and I'm sure they will)

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