v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 14

First topic message reminder :

Wednesday group was dominated by the only Ice Hockey entrant Wayne Gretzky, he bagged 58% of the vote and sails into round 2 alongside crickets Garfield Sobers. Exiting the competition at the first stage are Kenenisa Bekele and Franz Beckenbauer who only managed a combined 11 votes.

Today we have just the one article written by forum members, please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Muhammad Ali- Boxing- Championed by 6oldenbhoy

When I offered to take part in this exercise I was originally asked to champion another fighter. I had my reservations as, in my opinion, this man’s aura was built more on the reputation he had acquired rather than his in ring achievement (though I must admit he did achieve a heck of a lot). I had no such qualms with the second option, the self proclaimed ‘Greatest’ Muhammad Ali. At this point I must admit that, although I have been a fight fan for many years, some of my earliest memories are of watching Michael Carruth and Wayne McCullough in the Barcelona Olympics and no Saturday night was complete with watching the boxing on ITV, I have never been a massive fan of Ali. I have seen almost all of his fights, viewed all the major documentaries and read various articles on the man but I've always had an almost take it or leave it attitude towards him. However, upon undertaking this activity, I have found an admiration and respect for the man who would be a worthy winner of this accolade. His career encompassed everything, monumental highs, catastrophic lows, triumph in the face of adversity, not to mention controversy all now tinged with tragedy. To fit all of this into an article would be an impossible task, such was the effect he had on Boxing and the World around him.

Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr was born on the 17/1/1942 to a Methodist father and Baptist mother. Few could have predicted what this child would go on and accomplish. The story begins when at the age of twelve young Cassius had his bicycle stolen. A thirst for revenge drove him to his local boxing gym where he should such aptitude for the sport that in a mere six years he was crowned Olympic Light Heavyweight Champion in Rome in 1960. Nino Benvenuti, the darling of his home crowd, won the Val Barker Trophy but many thought this accolade belonged to Clay.

Upon returning home he promptly turned profession under the tutelage of Angelo Dundee. He quickly developed into a boxer fleet of foot with a stinging jab,lightning reflexes and with more than adequate power. Nineteen straight wins led to a title shot against the fearsome Sonny Liston. Going into the contest Clay was a 7/1 underdog, but won the title when Liston retired on his stool at the end of the sixth round. The rematch wouldn’t last as long, Liston going down in the first. Some claimed Liston took a dive, others claim it was a legitimate punch. The fight did create one the most iconic sporting images of the twentieth century, where Ali (shortly after the Liston fight he had changed his name to Cassius X, then to Muhammad Ali) stands over his fallen opponent screaming at him to continue. Ali went on to defend the title a further eight times.

Muhammad was stripped of his title soon after his final defense against Zora Folley. His boxing license was also revoked and was sentenced to five years in jail. He appealed and remained on bail but was unable to box for three and a half years. Eventually given a license to fight in Atlanta, Ali won the first of two comeback fights before challenging Joe Frazier for the undisputed Heavyweight Championship, in a bout now known as “The Fight of the Century”. It was a thriller from start to finish, Ali starting the faster, but Frazier slowly walked him down. Frazier was ahead on all scorecards going into the final round when he unleashed a tremendous left hook that put Ali on the canvas. Ali bravely rose and heard the final bell but lost a unanimous decision. It was noted that Ali did not have the usual bounce in his step and one could argue showed the effects of three and a half years out.

Ali would not challenge for the World title for another three years. He won thirteen of his next fourteen fights, avenging the only loss he suffered in this period. A win over Joe Frazier set up a bout with Big George Foreman. This was to be Ali’s finest hour. Going into the bout, entitled the “Rumble in the Jungle”, nobody was giving Ali a chance. Ali had suffered losses to both Ken Norton and Joe Frazier whereas Foreman had knocked both of the out in them in the second round. Ali started brightly enough, but then adopted a tactic of lying on the ropes and absorbing punishment from Foreman. Foreman punched but Ali blocked them, shooting out counters of his own at every chance. This tactic, which Ali would later describe as “Rope-a-Dope” would have been seen to be suicide to many but becoming increasingly effective as Foreman threw haymaker after haymaker to down Ali, but Ali took them and answered back with his own. Entering the eighth Foreman was visibly exhausted. Ali pounced, trapping him on the ropes pummeling him with a barrage of blow that put Foreman down. He was unable to answer the count and a New Champion was crowned. Ali defended the title a further three times before facing Joe Frazier in the final installment of their classic trilogy.

The “Thrilla in Manila” took place, funnily enough, in the Filipino capital in front of crowd of 28,000. What followed was fourteen rounds of unsheathed brutality before Frazier was retired on his stool. Frazier’s eyes were so badly swollen that he claimed he couldn't see the punches coming, yet still protested when Eddie Futch withdrew him from the contest. Ali led from the front punishing Frazier with hooks, jabs and uppercuts wobbling Frazier frequently. Frazier gamely fought back every time and in the mid rounds unleashed one of his trademark left hooks right to Ali’s jaw. This punch looked like it could have felled a tree, yet Ali took it and stayed on his feet. By the end of the fight Frazier was taking continuous punishment. In the fourteenth, Ali landed punch after punch on a more and a more helpless Frazier. It was a mercy when the fight was stopped. Ali described the contest as the closest thing to dying he had experienced, whilst showing humility, describing Frazier as the toughest man alive. A further six defenses of the title followed before he lost the title to “Neon” Leon Spinks. He won the title back in the return before retiring. A brief comeback last two fights, both defeats, though Ali was a shell of his former self by this stage.

When people talk of athletes transcending sport, Ali is the one who first comes to mind. When you ask the common man or women on the street who they most associate with the sport of Boxing, Ali’s name will be said most frequently. As big a fan as I am of the Klitschkos, the average person on the street would struggle to name either of them as Heavyweight Champion of the world. When Ali was Champion, it was the exact opposite. He was one of the most recognized faces in the world, never mind sportsmen. This was the reason Sports Illustrated named him Sportsman of the Century, as did the BBC. The Heavyweight Championship of the World was once talked of as the greatest prize in sport and it was fighters like Muhammad Ali that made it so. This is a sport that has so little margin for error. Moving your head even fractionally may have devastating results. As former Heavyweight title challenger Tex Cobb once said "If you screw things up in tennis, it's 15-love. If you screw up in boxing, it's your ass." Ali excelled at this sport even when he had returned a faded fighter physically from his imposed exile. However like all greats at any sport he found other ways to win. His in ring intelligence set him apart from his contemporaries when he had lost the bounce in his step and his reflexes had dulled. It must not be forgotten that he displayed all these skills and attributes in what was the golden period of Heavyweight boxing. While he is remembered for his talents by some, others will recall him for his mouth. Ali was the ultimate showman. The press loved him and although he could be vulgar and downright disrespectful to his opponents at times, it could be said that this hyped fights and helped him to get that mental edge on his opponent. As I alluded to in my opening paragraph, I had my doubts when I was asked to champion another fighter due to his record, I find Ali to be the complete package. His record stands alone as far as Heavyweights go, while he had the showmanship and charisma that contributed to his everlasting legacy on sport. Long after we are all gone people will still talk of Ali. The Ali of today has been ravaged by Parkinsonism, an unwanted souvenir of a career spanning twenty one years inside the ring. Yet to see him light the Olympic flame at the Atlanta games was a one of the most iconic moments of the 20th Century. To this day he continues to battle his condition with just as much courage as he exhibited throughout his career in the ring. It takes a brave man to step through those ropes and Ali has shown both through his career and the aftermath, that he is right up there with the bravest of them all.

Richie McCaw - championed by Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
Richard Hugh McCaw has spent the last decade dominating every opponent on the rugby field, in that time winning the International Rugby Board’s Player of the Year award three times, and being the key player in the All Blacks’ 2011 Rugby World Cup win, as well as 8 Tri-Nations/Rugby Championship titles, 3 Northern Hemisphere Grand Slams, 4 Super Rugby titles (the toughest domestic rugby competition on the planet) and 3 runners-up medals with the Crusaders and 6 National Championships with Canterbury.

He was the first New Zealander to play 100 rugby tests – a result of his dominance of his position, as generally the Black jersey is the hardest one to win, and to retain. In his 116 international caps he has been on the winning side over 100 times, more than any other rugby player. Captain of the All Blacks since 2006 he is now the most capped captain NZ has ever had, and he’s simply the greatest player from the world’s greatest rugby nation.

As an open-side flanker he has been consistently the best player in his position throughout his career, brushing off challenges from the likes of George Smith, Marty Holla, Schalk Burger, Heinrich Brussow and David Pocock along the way, while he has also been versatile enough to play on the blindside flank and at number 8 at international level. His great skills are:
His fitness – developed by running 10km every 2nd day from the age of 12,
Pain threshold (medical testing found that after a match his nerve endings resembled those of a burns victim), and he played through the final 3 games of the 2011 Rugby World Cup with 3 broken bones in one foot
Anticipation – his reading of the game of rugby is superb meaning he gets to the right place before most other players,
Adaptability – he is 2nd to none at adjusting his style of play to suit the interpretations. The head of the IRB’s refereeing panel was overheard to say to a senior referee:
“The trouble with McCaw is he’s so fast we can’t see if he’s doing anything illegal.”
“Then how to we control him?”
“We can only penalise what we can see.”

Precisely, it would be a very boring place if the dialogue went like many would like it to.

"Nadal is so great"
"Yes I agree",
"Isn't he fantastic?"
"Yes he is."
zzzzzzz

Sounds like you and gael . . . . . . .

captain carrantuohil wrote:As they used to say in horse-racing circles many years ago, it's Eclipse first and the rest nowhere today.

Ali was not perfect, let's make no bones about it. Not as a man, at least. As a heavyweight boxer, however, he is in a league of his own. No big man had ever moved like Ali, shown such blinding hand speed or the ability to score five or six times in a couple of seconds while taking nothing in return. Unlikely as it seems, we never actually got to see him at his best, either - it's one of sport's biggest losses that we were denied the opportunity to watch Ali from the spring of 67 to the summer of 70. In his second incarnation, the sheer virtuosity had gone. Instead, we were treated to exhibitions of courage, nerve and spirit that are part of the world's sporting folklore. In my opinion a top 5 pound for pound boxer, Ali cannot be approached by anyone in his weight division.

Outside the ring, Ali could be spiteful and he could be immature. His treatment of Joe Frazier and other opponents such as Patterson and Terrell was unforgivable. Nevertheless, in the context of the era in which he was fighting, he had his reasons. How many other sportsmen do we know with courage enough to put their careers, even their liberty, on the line for their beliefs? He had charm in abundance too when he chose to employ it. Here in the UK, a country that Ali loved, we were fortunate enough to see and feel it more than most. His bragadoccio, often merely a device for selling fights, was usually offered with tongue firmly in cheek - it has spawned a legion of imitators, none with Ali's flair and warmth.

Other sportsmen have had the ear of statesmen or been heroes beyond their own lands. Beside Ali, they look like peasants at the parish pump. Presidents and monarchs made time to see this man, aware that he embodied his global generation as no other sportsman ever has. To me, Ali is one of the supreme sportsmen of all time - even more relevantly, he is also by far the most important man of sport who has ever lived.

Great as McCaw, Johnson and Senna have been in their fields, they cannot begin to approach Ali. That's no disgrace - no-one else can either. Ali, you may not be surprised to learn, would always be my choice for the winner of this entire exercise.

You could not have worded this any better captain. Ali would be my pick for the entire competition too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkhpZoPOfZI

People might particularly enjoy that bit starting just after 2:12 of the video - this is a greenish Ali just before hitting his physical peak (he was banned for three years) then watch some of his fights after. Sublime Skill then Pure guts.

Hard as I actually rate all 4.

However, albeit in different positions, it is hard enough to separate McCaw and Johnson (and others) as Rugby Goats, actually even goat in their position (McCaw vs the Iceman? Johnson vs Eales or McBride) so they can't qualify. Senna was a great but for all it was an earlier age and driving still requires vast skill, to me it is not enough of a sport. So the prize goes to a genuine overall contender, IMO the greatest heavyweight boxer ever and the greatest boxer ever and most importantly a man who transcended sport and influenced millions if not billions- Ali

mystiroakey wrote:aucks- fed has won the most slams- how can he not be considered?

Bolt is the fastest man ever and by some distance over the flag ship athletic event- again how can he not be considered!

What does it matter if they are still playing?- they have allready acheived more than any other in there field!

Mystir, heres something you may not know, but if Richie Mccaw or Dan Carter retired from playing rugby next week they cant be considered as an inductee to the IRB hall of fame before 2016 at the earliest.

The protocol is that you cant be nominated for consideration as an inductee until the expiration of 3 years from the time you retired from playing or coaching rugby.

If they havent done a crime then they wont mind doing the time. plus after the expiration of a bit of time with them away from the active playing scene it gives the nomination and their achievements more respect and credibility.

We are looking for the GOAT, whereas you are talking about a HOF. Two different things.

To not be able to vote for Woods, Federer, McCaw and a few others would be nothing but idiotic.

But surely Stella the burden for qualification and consideration for a Greatest of all time in all sports, must be a lot higher than an individual Sports Hall of Famer??

Why?

Federer is a great whether he wins no more majors or five. Why not have the chance to pick him as GOAT.

A HOF is what it says and having a five year wait IMO, is a little daft but I can undrstand the reasoning for players to be retired.

Apples and Oranges, Auckland.

the greatest of all Time must be absolutely spotless and beyond any question of doubt, this can only be achieved with a test of time out of the immediate public gaze after he has finished participating in his/her sport.

It also takes away the emotive vote, based purely on the basis that he was the most recently seen on worldwide television, like last night for example.

But we also vote by nostalgia. That's why we are reading the write ups on most of the 64.

This is the way I see it. By not voting for sportsmen/women who are still playing, makes this a pointless excercise.

Good point I agree nostalgia is also an emotive process.

Although I believe that current sportspeople should be not included, their time will come.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Good point I agree nostalgia is also an emotive process.

Although I believe that current sportspeople should be not included, their time will come.

Maybe not on this site though.

we want the best not the best remebered.. good point stella!

Ali knocks his competition in his style with upper right punch.

Hibbz wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Diggers wrote:It's a bit disappointing how few people contribute to these threads , I thought it would lead to a bit of cross board fertilisation but it seems by and large most people would rather discuss the same subjects over and over again in their cliques.

From my point of view Diggers, my early enthusiasm wained as there are too many people nominated and we are still only in round 1., we've got the round of 32, 16, 8 and 4 to go. In addititon there are too many Cricketers in it. Must have been 8 or 9 by now.

It's been a good idea, but poorly thought out in order to maintain interest in the long time it will take to play out to a conclusion. I expect it will get more interesting when the dross is whittled down, but that's a long way off.

I'd say it can only get more boring. We'll have had all the conversations about all the candidates already so I'm not sure what's left for the next round and even more so the ones after.

Once you get Ali vs Bolt vs Nicklaus vs Bradman or the like I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion. I don't think you've had all the conversations on any of the candidates, there's not a set amount of conversation one can have on any even vaguely interesting topic- they are fluid things and vastly altered by the make up of conversationalists present.

If we do a music GOAT, is that performers as well as composers? On that question, should managers get a category in sport?

A Music GOAT may be harder. Music is all about taste and the only facts would be sales, number ones etc, which would have Westlife above The Stone Roses.