Ireland 6N 33 man squad

by clivemcl Sun 27 Jan 2013, 4:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Michael Bent
Rory Best
Tom Court
Sean Cronin
Gordon D'Arcy
Keith Earls
Luke Fitzgerald
Declan Fitzpatrick
Craig Gilroy
Cian Healy
Jamie Heaslip
Iain Henderson
Chris Henry
Paddy Jackson
Rob Kearney
David Kilcoyne
Conor Murray
Mike McCarthy
Kevin McLaughlin
Fergus McFadden
Dave McSharry
Sean O'Brien
Donncha O'Callaghan
Brian O'Driscoll
Ronan O'Gara
Peter O'Mahony
Eoin Reddan
Mike Ross
Donnacha Ryan
Jonathan Sexton
Mike Sherry
Devin Toner
Simon Zebo

Notable inclusions - Jackson and McSharry

Notable Ommissions - Trimble and Marshall

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:59 pm

Its not about being parochial provincial shenanigans. Sure, it appears that only Ulster players seem to be on the end of selection choices, but for me its not about that. Its that Kidney refuses to learn from his mistakes. The backline has been dreadful for two seasons and excellent against Argentina. Why? Murray playing his natural game, quick service and an injection of pace and youthful exuberance. We are crying out for a change in the centres. McSharry or Marshall should start. McSharry has been good all season and offers something new. Throw him in. Wales might pick two breakdown specialists in the backrow and it looks like Kidney might pick none. Its nonsense. i just watched against the head there tonight and they were saying with the breakdown specialists Wales will have we need ball carriers. What on earth are Ferris/SOB/Heaslip? How did that go lads?

Furthermore Ulster are Ireland's form province yet only one player in the side. If that was Leinster or Munster there would be outrage. There is no reward for provincial form ala Eddie O'Sullivan.

by **profitius** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:40 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
Furthermore Ulster are Ireland's form province yet only one player in the side. If that was Leinster or Munster there would be outrage. There is no reward for provincial form ala Eddie O'Sullivan.

True Hook but Leinster are European champions and Munster have very good players coming through. Ironically 2 of the Ulster players I would start are Luke Marshall (if fit) and Gilroy and neither are first choice in Ulster.

by toml Tue 29 Jan 2013, 3:47 am

MMC wrote:Having watched the Saxons game on Friday evening I'm very worried that the 'game plan' employed there is the same 'game plan' that Kidney is looking to employ against Wales. The reason I have game plan in quotes because it seems to be an abstract and intangible concept in the world of the current Ireland coaching setup.

I have a horrible feeling that no matter what teams line out against each other at the weekend it will ultimately result in a Wales win, orchestrated by Gatland.

On the Trimble omission, I feel sorry for him. Not just with regard to this game but seemingly in all of the games he's played under Kidney's tenure. As has been alluded to already elsewhere, he just doesn't seem to get the best out of him with the 'tactics' that Ireland use. (There are those quotes again).

I think that Court and Fitzpatrick have to be on the bench. The reason I wouldn't consider Kilcoyne (though he and Court aren't that far apart) is that if Ross is injured early on and Fitzpatrick comes on to replace him, if he tires we do have the option of playing Court at tighthead for the last part of the game. I can see all of your horrified faces reading this and just getting "play Court at tighthead". That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I'd rather have a combination of an unfit (cardio-wise) Fitzpatrick and Court covering Ross than I would Bent.

If Kidney is seriously thinking about playing Earls in the centre with BOD then the Trimble omission is even more baffling given that we're guaranteed to need a hard running back coming into midfield on some attacking plays. This is where we're going to seriously miss having Bowe.

On the subject of Earls, I think there's some seriously blinkered views on him here lately. He's been the reason the likes of Zebo have looked good. Yes his distribution still needs to be improved, and by that I mean his vision - his actual passing is excellent IMO. I won't deny that he butchered 2 clearcut try scoring chances against Racing by not choosing to pass, but so did Zebo and for every missed chance Earls was responsible for, he created 3 or 4 more. As soon as he went off Munster's attack looked impotent. Anyway, the fact is I'd still start BOD over him with Earls on the bench for the Wales game.

The halfbacks pick themselves really and I've said enough about the outside backs.

On to the pack, the front five is a no-brainer so the backrow is the last selection question. Heaslip will rightly start at 8, regardless of the captaincy. I see POM as 6 moreso than 7 or 8 - at least for the time being.

Henry should be nailed down for the 7 jersey but Kidney will probably go for SOB there (with POM at 6) with Henry on the bench. The fight for the 6 jersey should be between POM and SOB and I'm not too bothered who gets it, both are excellent options and both cover multiple positions from the bench.

So to sum it up, the team I'd pick if I were coach is:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. McCarthy
6. SOB
7. Henry
8. Heaslip (c)
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. D'Arcy
13. BOD
14. Gilroy or Earls (would've been Trimble)
15. Kearney

16. Sherry
17. Court
18. Fitzpatrick
19. DOC (gasp!)
20. POM
21. Reddan
22. ROG (another gasp!)
23. Earls or Gilroy

The team I think Kidney will pick:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. McCarthy
6. POM
7. SOB
8. Heaslip (c)
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. D'Arcy
13. BOD
14. Earls
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Court
18. Bent
19. Henderson
20. Henry
21. Reddan
22. ROG
23. Gilroy

Spot on MMC

by Standulstermen Tue 29 Jan 2013, 5:23 am

profitius wrote:Whats all this talk of Trimble? He is a solid player, nothing more. He isn't highly talented and makes mistakes. He is not a giant or not lightening quick. Just because hes playing well in the HEC. I like Trimble, he has a good attitude and always gives 100% but I think he is short of international class.

Is earls even playing well at HEC level?

I see nothing to distinguish the apparent 'class' of Keith Earls at international level over Trimble. Bear in mind also that the only game (internationally if not also provincially) earls has started at wing in the past 12 months was 60-0. Trimbles one mistake in the autumn was dropping a ball into touch while covering his opposite wing. I can think of a lot more severe ones that have gone unnoticed.

Good luck to whoever is picked and I hope they trounce Wales (sorry welsh posters) but unless kidney is replaced we will languish in the lower 2nd tier of world rugby.

by **rodders** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 8:59 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
rodders wrote:Too much Hyperbole here..... and thats without hookie .......

Tis what it tis .... some guys are hard done by and others can count their lucky stars (again)....

...at the end of the day thats the squad, Deccies the boss (still) and if we win another slam I won't be complaining.......

You rang?

Listen, lets be real about this whole selection of the squad. If I was Trimble I would be disappointed for sure. He is Ireland's form winger. Not Zebo, not Gilroy, not Fitzgerald and certainly not Earls. All this talk of his 'never performing' for Ireland is absolute nonsense. When he does perform such as the '11 summer tour when he was Ireland's best player, or in the run up to the World Cup when even George Hook said he should be in the Ireland side, he still gets dropped.

I concur.

I'd put Scotland 2008 and 2012, England 2011, SA 2006, France 2006, NZ 2006, Australia and Romania 2005 in with his summer 2011 performances in terms of evidence when he did the business in green. He's had his ups and downs but key point is unlike a lot of his contempories he has delivered big performances against all the top nations, including the SH big 3.

Another point though is that Luke Fitzgerald was in outstanding form last year and also missed out on the 6N squad altogether so I wouldn't take this as personal thing against Trimble or Ulster. Kidney doesn't seem to take much note of provincial form.

As I've said countless times before the real elephant in the room is Keith Earls who gets a guaranteed spot regardless of his form and performances relative to others. If he's there as a centre then fine but if he takes a slot in the back 3 then it pretty much makes a (even bigger) farce of the whole selection process.

by The Great Aukster Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:09 am

profitius wrote:Whats all this talk of Trimble? He is a solid player, nothing more. He isn't highly talented and makes mistakes. He is not a giant or not lightening quick. Just because hes playing well in the HEC. I like Trimble, he has a good attitude and always gives 100% but I think he is short of international class.

Ulster players have always lacked international class - or at least that's the way the Dublin media present them. Remember when Rory Best was described as one step removed from an amoeba? Or Tommy Bowe being the worst Irish winger since Jack Clarke? And of course Ulster's current success is purely down to Humph being seriously lucky with the NIQs he's contracted. It's a real pity the South Irishman Strauss isn't fit as it would have been interesting reading the calls for him to start.

It's true Trimble isn't as big as say Matt Banahan or as quick as Tom Varndell. However he hits as hard than any other winger in world rugby, is scoring plenty of tries and stopping plenty as well. If that is short of international class I'll look forward to seeing the definition embodied in whomever is selected - especially the mistake free rugby.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:29 am

rodders wrote:

Another point though is that Luke Fitzgerald was in outstanding form last year and also missed out on the 6N squad altogether so I wouldn't take this as personal thing against Trimble or Ulster. Kidney doesn't seem to take much note of provincial form.

As I've said countless times before the real elephant in the room is Keith Earls who gets a guaranteed spot regardless of his form and performances relative to others. If he's there as a centre then fine but if he takes a slot in the back 3 then it pretty much makes a (even bigger) farce of the whole selection process.

Completely agree with this

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:29 am

I have to say the whole "Ulster are discriminated against" thing gets old really fast Rolling Eyes

Trimble only turned 28 a few months back and has already racked up 50 caps for Ireland. Talk of him being continually ignored is exaggerated at best.

Then factor in that you have got Ruan Pienaar and John Afoa and Johann Muller and Jared Payne and Nick Williams who are not Irish eligable.

Then factor in that arguably your two best Irish guys Tommy Bowe and Stephen Ferris are injured and would have certainly started the match.

Paddy Wallace has had his time and new boy Luke Marshall got injured and did not start key Heineken Cup games. His time will come but he hasn't earned that spot yet.

All in all there are few guys from any province who can truly feel hard done by in this team. Personally I like Trimble and would have included him but it just gets so annoying hearing this "Kidney out - its a disgrace he hasn't picked enough Ulster boys".

I see this article lists Paul Marshall as a "noticeable ommission". He was never going to feature. An uncapped guy who at age 28 has not yet broken into the Ulster team and will never play a starting role at Ulster IMO.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:30 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
rodders wrote:

Another point though is that Luke Fitzgerald was in outstanding form last year and also missed out on the 6N squad altogether so I wouldn't take this as personal thing against Trimble or Ulster. Kidney doesn't seem to take much note of provincial form.

As I've said countless times before the real elephant in the room is Keith Earls who gets a guaranteed spot regardless of his form and performances relative to others. If he's there as a centre then fine but if he takes a slot in the back 3 then it pretty much makes a (even bigger) farce of the whole selection process.

Completely agree with this

I'd agree with this too.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:31 am

red_stag wrote:I have to say the whole "Ulster are discriminated against" thing gets old really fast

Trimble only turned 28 a few months back and has already racked up 50 caps for Ireland. Talk of him being continually ignored is exaggerated at best.

Then factor in that you have got Ruan Pienaar and John Afoa and Johann Muller and Jared Payne and Nick Williams who are not Irish eligable.

Then factor in that arguably your two best Irish guys Tommy Bowe and Stephen Ferris are injured and would have certainly started the match.

Paddy Wallace has had his time and new boy Luke Marshall got injured and did not start key Heineken Cup games. His time will come but he hasn't earned that spot yet.

All in all there are few guys from any province who can truly feel hard done by in this team. Personally I like Trimble and would have included him but it just gets so annoying hearing this "Kidney out - its a disgrace he hasn't picked enough Ulster boys".

I see this article lists Paul Marshall as a "noticeable ommission". He was never going to feature. An uncapped guy who at age 28 has not yet broken into the Ulster team and will never play a starting role at Ulster IMO.

Well said.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:38 am

My own feeling is that Leinster players hold the key to Ireland's success this year for a few reasons.

- They are in form. They have got bonus points in their last two Heineken Cup games and have IMO turned a corner from earlier in the season (albeit a little too late).

- They are still excellent players. Kearney, O'Driscoll, Healy, Heaslip, O'Brien etc did not become bad players over night. They lost their way as a team mainly due to overestimating their squad depth.

- They have a point to prove. Irish players from my experience have always reacted well to criticism and Leinsters players will be out to prove themselves after their Heineken Cup exit.

- They are not going to have one eye on the Heineken Cup. The Leinster boys know that really this is all they have to play for this season. The Pro 12 isn't going to be a big deal compared with the Heino. This is the one chance for meaningful silverware.

I'm expecting to see that count in a big way.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:47 am

I'd be amazed if Earls starts at 14 when there are Zebo, Gilroy, McFadden and Fitzgerald all available.

My bet is Earls to start at centre with either Darcy or O'Driscoll.

by **rodders** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:55 am

red_stag wrote:My own feeling is that Leinster players hold the key to Ireland's success this year for a few reasons.

- They are in form. They have got bonus points in their last two Heineken Cup games and have IMO turned a corner from earlier in the season (albeit a little too late).

- They are still excellent players. Kearney, O'Driscoll, Healy, Heaslip, O'Brien etc did not become bad players over night. They lost their way as a team mainly due to overestimating their squad depth.

- They have a point to prove. Irish players from my experience have always reacted well to criticism and Leinsters players will be out to prove themselves after their Heineken Cup exit.

- They are not going to have one eye on the Heineken Cup. The Leinster boys know that really this is all they have to play for this season. The Pro 12 isn't going to be a big deal compared with the Heino. This is the one chance for meaningful silverware.

I'm expecting to see that count in a big way.

No I'm not sure about that Stag. Players can very much become 'bad' overnight through age and injury and, Healy apart, the above have all suffered from one or the other this year...in O'Driscoll's case both. I'd add Mike Ross to that list too.

If Ireland are to do anything this year it will be down to the young guns I think - Zebo, Gilroy, O'Mahoney, Murray, Henderson - injecting energy and pace where there is none, and the form 'prime' players - Best, Ryan, Henry, McCarthy, Sexton, Heaslip, Earls - taking up the reigns from POC, ROG and BOD and providing leadership, composure and steel.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:06 am

Good to see new players getting a chance Rodders.

If Trimble were selected only the core group of Darcy, O'Driscoll, O'Callaghan, Best, Heaslip and O'Gara would have more caps than him.

Time for a change Wink

There are 14 players out of 33 with less than ten caps. The times are a changing. There are only 6 players with more than 50 caps.

by Kingshu Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:08 am

red_stag wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
rodders wrote:

Another point though is that Luke Fitzgerald was in outstanding form last year and also missed out on the 6N squad altogether so I wouldn't take this as personal thing against Trimble or Ulster. Kidney doesn't seem to take much note of provincial form.

As I've said countless times before the real elephant in the room is Keith Earls who gets a guaranteed spot regardless of his form and performances relative to others. If he's there as a centre then fine but if he takes a slot in the back 3 then it pretty much makes a (even bigger) farce of the whole selection process.

Completely agree with this

I'd agree with this too.

Completely agree, For me Earls is a very good player, but he has recieved more caps than he really deserves. it just seams DK will pick him if he is injury free, its fine that he can cover center and wing, but I think there have been form players missing out because of DK's love affair with Earls.
At center this year has he been better than McSharry?
on Wing has he been better the Fitz/Gilroy?
if covering center and wing, is he better than McFadden?

I'd say No, No, maybe, but I bet Earls is closer to the starting XV (prob in it on wing) than any of the others.

by clivemcl Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:08 am

red_stag wrote:I have to say the whole "Ulster are discriminated against" thing gets old really fast

In fairness, I havnt read every single commenton the thread, but I only thought the arguments were bemoaning Trimbles exclusion, not an entire discrimination of the Ulster team.

Also, you hint that Ulster's sucess is due to the NIQs. Fitzgerald and McFadden did well getting their team to the quarter finals didnt they??

red_stag wrote:I see this article lists Paul Marshall as a "noticeable ommission". He was never going to feature. An uncapped guy who at age 28 has not yet broken into the Ulster team and will never play a starting role at Ulster IMO.

He's second fiddle to the best 9 in world rugby. lol. Paul Marshall would start at Leinster and would alternate with if not start ahead of Murray. He was one of the better players in a very disjointed Wolfhounds side.

Also, If you have been watching... you will have noticed that Ulster have been winning this season even during times where Pienaar / Payne / Williams have been injured.

Here, just take a listen to an episode of Joe.ie rugby podcast with Jerry Flannery and Mal O'Kelly and tell us we are imagining the fact that Munster and Leinster are anti-ulster.

by Standulstermen Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:28 am

I havent read every comment (and i wont) so i cant say but the main gripe i am reading is

a) that trimble was excluded from a squad of 33
b) that in light of his exclusion we may pick a guy to play his position that hasnt played it in over a year
c) that (possibly) Chris Henry, the form backrow in irelandm if not europe might be benched.

I dont think those are ridiculous points to debate. Paul Marshall i agree is nowhere near test class (then again our options bar Murray are shocking).

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:30 am

clivemcl wrote:
red_stag wrote:I have to say the whole "Ulster are discriminated against" thing gets old really fast

In fairness, I havnt read every single commenton the thread, but I only thought the arguments were bemoaning Trimbles exclusion, not an entire discrimination of the Ulster team.

Also, you hint that Ulster's sucess is due to the NIQs. Fitzgerald and McFadden did well getting their team to the quarter finals didnt they??

red_stag wrote:I see this article lists Paul Marshall as a "noticeable ommission". He was never going to feature. An uncapped guy who at age 28 has not yet broken into the Ulster team and will never play a starting role at Ulster IMO.

He's second fiddle to the best 9 in world rugby. lol. Paul Marshall would start at Leinster and would alternate with if not start ahead of Murray. He was one of the better players in a very disjointed Wolfhounds side.

Also, If you have been watching... you will have noticed that Ulster have been winning this season even during times where Pienaar / Payne / Williams have been injured.

Here, just take a listen to an episode of Joe.ie rugby podcast with Jerry Flannery and Mal O'Kelly and tell us we are imagining the fact that Munster and Leinster are anti-ulster.

I haven't suggested that Ulsters form is just down to the NIQ. Im just saying that you have a third of your team who are non Irish, some key injuries to players who were certainties for Ireland, one or two fellas who missed the boat despite being on form (Cave and Trimble) and the rest are in the squad. Compare than for example to Leinster or Munster who have no real foreign players of note apart from Nacewa, Howlett and Botha and they have no major injuries. Its completely understandable why there are more of them in the squad.

Every team has guys who don't get picked. Tommy O'Donnell is without a doubt one of the really on form backrow in Ireland right now. He made 12 tackles against England Saxons and has been man of the match in plenty of games for Munster this season including at Heineken Cup level. He hasn't made the squad the same as Trimble, Marshall etc and you dont see us claiming that there is an agenda. James Coughlan has for years been one of the most consistent performers in Irish rugby. He is uncapped. Ian Madigan is another lad who is unfortunate not to have gained international recognition.

Regarding Marshall my own feeling is that he is probably the most over hyped player in the country at the moment. He is indeed second fiddle to the best #9 in world rugby but I think Heaney will actually become a better player and he is nowhere near Reddan and Murray.

I simply think that some Ulster posters are convincing themselves of an anti-Ulster agenda and building up a parochial siege mentality that is as divisive to the support of the national team as the unhelpful Leinster v Munster bickering of old.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:33 am

Standulstermen wrote:I havent read every comment (and i wont) so i cant say but the main gripe i am reading is

a) that trimble was excluded from a squad of 33
b) that in light of his exclusion we may pick a guy to play his position that hasnt played it in over a year
c) that (possibly) Chris Henry, the form backrow in irelandm if not europe might be benched.

I dont think those are ridiculous points to debate. Paul Marshall i agree is nowhere near test class (then again our options bar Murray are shocking).

I'd agree with those Standulsterman. As I've said I like Trimble and would start him with Zebo, I wouldn't play Earls on the wing and think that Henry should start.

by clivemcl Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:42 am

You will not convince me that Redden is better that Paul Marshall. No chance.

Also, on another note. Payne is just a Strauss in waiting. You cant complain about projects. Or at least if you must, direct it at the IRFU and dont use it as a stick to hit Ulster with.

I agree though that Heaney could be something. i worry he may not get the gametime he needs though. He's also not THAT young as far as I know. Maybe his chance is gone.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:46 am

Clive I'm not complaining about anyone or using it as a stick to hit Ulster.

I'm not making any comment on having foreign players. Munster had Mafi, Tipoki, Howlett, Warwick all in the same backline. That isn't what I am saying.

I am saying it is logical for Ulster right now to have less players in the squad than Leinster and Munster. This is because you have more front line foreigners and more injuries.

Your post sums up the siege mentality I am talking about. You are putting words in my mouth and getting defensive about things that are not being said.

by **rodders** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:48 am

clivemcl wrote:You will not convince me that Redden is better that Paul Marshall. No chance.

Me neither. A year ago yes but Marshall is without doubt in the top 3 9's in the country and is much better than many Ulster fans credit him for. In many ways Ulsters attacking play functions better with him at 9 than Pienaar. His service is much improved and better than any Irish 9 bar Stringer, has genuine breaking ability, is physical and in my opinion he's the best box kicker in in world rugby right now, absolutely exceptional at it.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:51 am

Rodders, ok so do we all agree that:

- Marshall being the best passer in Ireland
- Marshall being the best player in the world at box kicks
- Marshall is a physical player

Wink

by Standulstermen Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:57 am

rodders wrote:
clivemcl wrote:You will not convince me that Redden is better that Paul Marshall. No chance.

Me neither. A year ago yes but Marshall is without doubt in the top 3 9's in the country and is much better than many Ulster fans credit him for. In many ways Ulsters attacking play functions better with him at 9 than Pienaar. His service is much improved and better than any Irish 9 bar Stringer, has genuine breaking ability, is physical and in my opinion he's the best box kicker in in world rugby right now, absolutely exceptional at it.

In fairness Marshall may well be in the top 3 scrum halves in the country but there are only two selected.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 29 Jan 2013, 10:58 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Its not about being parochial provincial shenanigans. Sure, it appears that only Ulster players seem to be on the end of selection choices, but for me its not about that. Its that Kidney refuses to learn from his mistakes

Someone very wise, clever and I would say ruggedly handsome said this above. Doesn't appear to be anything about victimisation here.

It appears to be a very uncomfortable reality for some fans and especially the media and their 'expert pundits' that three of Ireland's form players are from Ulster in Court, Henry and Trimble. It appears likely that none of them will start in the side, with one not in the squad, and perhaps one will be on the bench if we are lucky. Lets forget that they are from Ulster for a moment. Three of our form players are likely not to be in the matchday squad. How can that be right? How long did it take him to bring SOB into the squad for example when outstanding form dictated he should be in much earlier? What does that tell us about selection policies and the standard of the coaching setup? Of course, picking a team entirely on players form would be the opposite extreme, but when Ireland have consistently under performed for four years something needs to change. I am astounded that one win (a good one) against a tired and disinterested Argentina is enough for the media and some fans to be talking about Kidney getting a contract extension. We have consistently gone backwards. I despair.

This isn't about Ulster or any other province. It's about players not being rewarded on form and those who consistently under perform being continually named in the starting squad. It was crystallised for me in the naming of Heaslip as captain. I can think of perhaps two games since the Lions tour where he has excelled and yet he is the highest paid irish player and captain now. Absolute nonsense. Stag mentions Coughlan. Is he a better player than Heaslip? No. Arguably. What he deserves is one opportunity to start in green and see if he measures up. D'Arcy has continually under performed for four years with the odd decent performance thrown in. The backline isn't functioning and needs a change. I would start either McSharry or Marshall and try something different. But no, we will get the same old tired partnership in midfield that hasn't worked at international level since 2009.

We will go into the Welsh game with the same failed backrow thinking of the three previous games- 'well they are good at the breakdown so we need ball carriers to smash them out of the way'. Make no mistake about it POM is not even in the same universe as a barely fit Ferris and the axis of Heaslip, SOB and Heaslip were played off the park. Meanwhile our best 7 in Henry, perhaps the form 7 in Europe or close to it (again not the best, but the best in form) will sit on the bench if he is lucky twiddling his thumbs. Kidney never learns. The media never learns. Too many fans never learn. The only chance we have is that Gatland, who has our number, will not be there to guide Wales to a fourth victory in a row.

by **rodders** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:06 am

Standulstermen wrote:
rodders wrote:
clivemcl wrote:You will not convince me that Redden is better that Paul Marshall. No chance.

Me neither. A year ago yes but Marshall is without doubt in the top 3 9's in the country and is much better than many Ulster fans credit him for. In many ways Ulsters attacking play functions better with him at 9 than Pienaar. His service is much improved and better than any Irish 9 bar Stringer, has genuine breaking ability, is physical and in my opinion he's the best box kicker in in world rugby right now, absolutely exceptional at it.

In fairness Marshall may well be in the top 3 scrum halves in the country but there are only two selected.

Yup and fair is fair but if we are indeed building towards the RWC, as Kidders told King Brian, then it would make sense to give Marshall the nod over Reddan in a tight call.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:11 am

rodders wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:
rodders wrote:
clivemcl wrote:You will not convince me that Redden is better that Paul Marshall. No chance.

Me neither. A year ago yes but Marshall is without doubt in the top 3 9's in the country and is much better than many Ulster fans credit him for. In many ways Ulsters attacking play functions better with him at 9 than Pienaar. His service is much improved and better than any Irish 9 bar Stringer, has genuine breaking ability, is physical and in my opinion he's the best box kicker in in world rugby right now, absolutely exceptional at it.

In fairness Marshall may well be in the top 3 scrum halves in the country but there are only two selected.

Yup and fair is fair but if we are indeed building towards the RWC, as Kidders told King Brian, then it would make sense to give Marshall the nod over Reddan in a tight call.

If thats the case then why was Marmion not called up to at least the Wolfhounds squad? Marshall is great to have off the bench but can't be trusted with starting imo.

by Kingshu Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:20 am

I'd agree with red_stag that some Ulster fans believe there is a Ulster discriminated against thing, and digging thier heels in.

I don't have think there is any real biasis (except DK's love affair with Earls), DK is under preesure to pick a team to win, or he risks his job, he isn't going to not pick players because they are from a certain province, when hes under htis much pressure.

I'd agree with stand Ulsterman, my gripe is Trimble should have played himself into starting XV, wouldn't have been surprised if DK didn't start him, but to not make the squad is a big surprise, and I feel Trimble has been hard doneby, by DK in the past as well.
If Henry doesn't start it would be equally surprising.

It just so happens both these players are Ulster players.

On Marshall, I think hes great to come on as an impact sub, but I wouldn't be overaly signing his praises like some, I'd actually have liked to have seen Kieran Marmion get gametime durning the wolfhounds game.

From Reddan, Boss, Marmion and Marshall I'd go with form and horses for courses approach. Out of them I'd actually prefer to see Marmion play for the Wolfhounds, and maybe make the bench, as he is the one that could learn most. Murray isn't really a step up from them, I've seen him give away some silly pens, and a few games has been lucky to stay on the pitch. I'd still start him and maybe its better to have the experienced Reddan as the back up. I'd have Marshall and Marmion play plenty for the Wolfhounds, and if there was an injury to Reddan or Murray, would call up the one of the two that has been doing best.

I'd have Madigan ahead of Jackson, and he can feel hard done by as well.

But then we havn't seen how these players have gone in camp, with Irelands sytems?

by **rodders** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:36 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
rodders wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:
rodders wrote:
clivemcl wrote:You will not convince me that Redden is better that Paul Marshall. No chance.

Me neither. A year ago yes but Marshall is without doubt in the top 3 9's in the country and is much better than many Ulster fans credit him for. In many ways Ulsters attacking play functions better with him at 9 than Pienaar. His service is much improved and better than any Irish 9 bar Stringer, has genuine breaking ability, is physical and in my opinion he's the best box kicker in in world rugby right now, absolutely exceptional at it.

In fairness Marshall may well be in the top 3 scrum halves in the country but there are only two selected.

Yup and fair is fair but if we are indeed building towards the RWC, as Kidders told King Brian, then it would make sense to give Marshall the nod over Reddan in a tight call.
If thats the case then why was Marmion not called up to at least the Wolfhounds squad? Marshall is great to have off the bench but can't be trusted with starting imo.

Good question but I didn't pick the team man!

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:37 am

Is RaboDirect Pro 12 form relevant to international selection.

by RubyGuby Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:43 am

red_stag wrote:Is RaboDirect Pro 12 form relevant to international selection.

It's relevant but it's only one variable among many others. Some players shine behind powerful backs whilst others struggle in poor teams. It's a factor and hence relevant but there are many other variables which are equally or more important. thumbsup

by The Great Aukster Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:43 am

red_stag wrote:Trimble only turned 28 a few months back and has already racked up 50 caps for Ireland. Talk of him being continually ignored is exaggerated at best.

The Irish selectors obviously have seen him as Test class in the past given his number of caps under both Eddie and Deccie. AT is also playing as well as he has ever been playing.

However the Irish media (that drives popular rugby opinion down South) constantly undermine Ulster players (not just Trimble) because they are an easy target when the team loses. It is perfectly natural the media discriminate in this way - it has always been thus.

It is also understandable that Kidney and the IRFU are affected by the media pressure on them, as they need the floating half-informed rugby fans who believe the drivel to spend euros on their product. Look no further than the U-turn on BOD's selection for the Wolfhounds, following the rumbling dissatisfaction at the great man being humbled in such a way. So dropping Trimble was understandable as Kidney doesn't know how to best use him anyway, and the decision has the bonus that it is media friendly.

What isn't understandable or acceptable is Kidney putting Trimble through the farce of the Wolfhounds game, whose main objective is to give potential players experience, or returning players match fitness. Kidney has shown he is clueless regarding tactics but when he loses respect as a man manager then what has he left?

by **Notch** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:45 am

Just for a laugh, Ireland team on provincial form in the Heineken Cup;

1. Court
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. McCarthy
6. O'Brien
7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. D'Arcy
13. BOD
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

Will be surprised if Court even makes the 23, we know Trimble won't and Henry looks set to miss out on the starting XV Rolling Eyes

by Glas a du Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:51 am

But apart from Court, that's likely to be the team isn't it? I mean, you don't actually need great scrummaging props against the Scots, you need your pack to get around the park.

by **Notch** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:51 am

Hate to say it, but Aukster is right Stag.

The same way Tom Courts form means nothing as a) the readership of the Independent and Irish Times haven't been paying attention and b) if he gets selected now, the IRFU and media lose their scapegoat for the Twickenham scrum disaster.

Don't understand the outrage over Paul Marshall to be honest. Was just a month ago he had a shocker in Thomond Park. I seriously thought he may lose out to Heaney for the Heineken Cup games, so how is he suddenly hard done by?

We've had the likes of Henry, Court and Trimble playing out of their skin and they deserve the chance. And I'll argue that point all day because it's messed up that they might not get called up on merit due to other players having more cheerleaders in the media. But the likes of Paul Marshall, Darren Cave, Paddy Jackson and even Craig Gilroy have been going along doing ok but not superlatively, so we can have no complaints if they are ignored.

by Glas a du Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:51 am

Hang on, Trimble Doh

How silly of me...

by clivemcl Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:52 am

Call it siege mentality if you want, but it has seemed to me for years that Ulster players have to work very hard to play themselves into the international setup and some Munster/Leinster players get a LOT of gametime in order to play themselves OUT of the international setup, and some still haven't played themselves out.

Generally speaking, if an Ulster player has a shocker, he's gone the next week. Munster / Leinster players get more chances to redeem themselves.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:54 am

They must do a great sale of tin foil hats in Belfast Rolling Eyes

by **Notch** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:55 am

clivemcl wrote:Call it siege mentality if you want, but it has seemed to me for years that Ulster players have to work very hard to play themselves into the international setup and some Munster/Leinster players get a LOT of gametime in order to play themselves OUT of the international setup, and some still haven't played themselves out.

Generally speaking, if an Ulster player has a shocker, he's gone the next week. Munster / Leinster players get more chances to redeem themselves.

It's like that old Scottish/British thing with Andy Murray. Our lads are Irish when they are doing well and Ulster when they aren't. Anything goes wrong, and you know who they're gonna turn around and blame...

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:56 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Ireland have the worst fans when it comes to the national team. If it isn't Leinster v Munster fans willing the other teams players to mess up its the Ulster fans claiming that the rest of the country hates them.

Honestly who'd blame Jonny Sexton - get out of Irish rugby, make a shedload of cash and turn your back on the nonsense that goes on.

by **rodders** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:56 am

Notch wrote:Just for a laugh, Ireland team on provincial form in the Heineken Cup;

1. Court
2. Best
3. ~~Ross~~ Macklin
4. ~~Ryan~~ Stevenson
5. McCarthy
6. ~~O'Brien~~ Diack
7. Henry
8. ~~Heaslip~~ Coughlan
9. ~~Murray~~ Marshall
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. ~~D'Arcy~~ Marshall
13. ~~BOD~~ Cave
14. Trimble
15. ~~Kearney~~ Henshaw

.....

by **Notch** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 11:58 am

red_stag wrote:They must do a great sale of tin foil hats in Belfast

Bullshoite, you know its the truth. The IRFU has been riven by the same petty politics in selection from its very inception and they have never been weeded out in the professional era. The preferential treatment for some players is obvious; hell, even you must admit O'Gara owes his place in the Munster and Ireland team to a few friends in the newspapers.

Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. I just want to see fairness in the selection process. I'm sick of factors other than rugby deciding who takes to the field for my country.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:00 pm

Notch I dont think its the case.

As we've already discussed guys like Madigan, Coughlan, Marmion, O'Donnell etc are all sitting at home today grumpy that they have yet to be capped for Ireland.

by RubyGuby Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:01 pm

I think that heavy black coat that Mr Trimble wears just slows him down thumbsup

by clivemcl Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:03 pm

clivemcl wrote:
Generally speaking, if an Ulster player has a shocker, he's gone the next week. Munster / Leinster players get more chances to redeem themselves.

Stag, do you disagree with this point? I'm 90% sure this is a real pattern that I could back up and had time to go get the proof. Unfortunately I'm at work.

(and not as passionate about it as I might seem Wink

)

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:07 pm

Good man Stag, you lead the bury your head in the sand brigade. Ulster players should feel hard done by because in this case they are. As an Ulster fan its annoying, but as an Irish fan I just want us to win and play decently doing it. As I have said several times now that is not the point- the point is form (not in the Rabo as you stated) in Europe's premier club competition should dictate that you be in with a shot for Irish selection. What has Fitzgerald done that Trimble hasn't far exceeded? What has Kilcoyne done that Court hasn't bested? What has D'Arcy done that McSharry couldn't do playing with superior players? Add Marmion to that one. It seems for Ireland that form is irrelevant to national selection. In this case it is mostly Ulster players who are the victims but that is just this occasion. Many other players have felt the brunt over the past decade from O'Sullivan and Kidney. We have arguably had the consistently best squad alongside France in that time. How is the trophy cabinet fairing?

Maybe engage with what we are actually saying rather than just equating Ulster fans highlighting hypocritical selection policies with victimhood. There's a good lad.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:08 pm

Clive I do disagree. Not sure how that could ever be proven though as having a shocker is a subjective term.

by **Notch** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:12 pm

red_stag wrote:Notch I dont think its the case.

As we've already discussed guys like Madigan, Coughlan, Marmion, O'Donnell etc are all sitting at home today grumpy that they have yet to be capped for Ireland.

Sure, they're grumpy but they haven't made the same compelling case the three players I mention have. I think a fair selection would be Best and Henry to start with Court and Trimble on the bench. If I'm picking on form I'm picking 4 Ulster players in the 23; it's not like I'm one of these wingnuts who thinks the Ulster Ravens should be selected en masse. And it's not like this is an Ulster vs Everyone Else thing. The undue influence of the media on selection benefits our players as well as harming the chances of our less 'glamorous' players.

Sure, look, you have Gilroy who is rather lucky to be picked looking likely to be picked. Whilst Trimble is grabbing games by the scruff he's done much less to impress. But Gilroy with his one cap is a much more exciting prospect than Trimble with his 50, a much easier player for the media to hype. Same thing with Henderson and Jackson. These are guys who I'd be ambivalent about seeing in the team at this stage but they make for good column inches. They can be portrayed as the great white hope of Irish Rugby and Declan Kidney knows he can come off as the man for the next three years by getting them involved now. Sure, they are less influential than the likes of Trimble, Wallace, Court etc. for Ulster. Yes they are still learning the game. But that doesn't matter because they've no baggage with the Irish press and Kidney looks good for 'building for the future'. You know yourself its always the knee jerk reaction of fans to call for youth and some Ulster lads are being given cheap caps on the back of it. I don't think Jackson has earned his spot over Madigan or Keatley for instance.

Why Ulster players sometimes lose out is we have much less coverage in the rugby press than Leinster/Munster. So if its a tight call (i.e. Kilcoyne vs Court, O'Mahony vs Henry, Fitzgerald vs Trimble) the IRFU normally go for the guy who will please the most people, cause the least stink in the papers and keep the most casual fans happy. Its rarely the Ulsterman, is all, but Connacht fans will testify that it isn't just us.

by red_stag Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:20 pm

Hookisms,

I am engaging what you are saying. I am saying exactly that in fact. There are lots of good players from all provinces not getting a chance. It is not just an Ulster problem.

I am not happy with how the team is performing and I am not happy with the coaching teams results.

However I think people who are convinced that everything is set up to screw Ulster are playing the victim.

I think I have now said about four times that I disagree with the ommission of Trimble.

The only thing I am challenging is the idea of an anti Ulster agenda.

by **rodders** Tue 29 Jan 2013, 12:21 pm

Notch wrote:
Why Ulster players sometimes lose out is we have much less coverage in the rugby press than Leinster/Munster. So if its a tight call (i.e. Kilcoyne vs Court, O'Mahony vs Henry, Fitzgerald vs Trimble) the IRFU normally go for the guy who will please the most people, cause the least stink in the papers and keep the most casual fans happy. Its rarely the Ulsterman, is all.

Therein lies the big problem. Seperate media coverage does lead to big descrepencies on how we view Ulster players vs the others.

The league table doesn't lie though, nor does the Heino.

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