Ireland 6N 33 man squad

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Michael Bent
Rory Best
Tom Court
Sean Cronin
Gordon D'Arcy
Keith Earls
Luke Fitzgerald
Declan Fitzpatrick
Craig Gilroy
Cian Healy
Jamie Heaslip
Iain Henderson
Chris Henry
Paddy Jackson
Rob Kearney
David Kilcoyne
Conor Murray
Mike McCarthy
Kevin McLaughlin
Fergus McFadden
Dave McSharry
Sean O'Brien
Donncha O'Callaghan
Brian O'Driscoll
Ronan O'Gara
Peter O'Mahony
Eoin Reddan
Mike Ross
Donnacha Ryan
Jonathan Sexton
Mike Sherry
Devin Toner
Simon Zebo


Notable inclusions - Jackson and McSharry

Notable Ommissions - Trimble and Marshall

To the extent that one exists, what would be the rationale for inter-provincial bias amongst the selection team? Just asking, like.

red_stag wrote:Hookisms,

I am engaging what you are saying. I am saying exactly that in fact. There are lots of good players from all provinces not getting a chance. It is not just an Ulster problem.

I am not happy with how the team is performing and I am not happy with the coaching teams results.

However I think people who are convinced that everything is set up to screw Ulster are playing the victim.

I think I have now said about four times that I disagree with the ommission of Trimble.

The only thing I am challenging is the idea of an anti Ulster agenda.

There undoubtedly is an anti-Ulster sentiment in the Irish media. You only need to pick up one of your leading papers to see it. Tehn you'd only need to read the Belfast Telegraph to see the nonsensical reaction in reverse. However I don't think it is an 'agenda' more than a deeply ingrained partitionist mindset that is visible in southern society in much more than rugby selection. I don't think Kidney is really affected by, I just think he is incompetent and picks his favourites (Earls, Heaslip, D'Arcy for example) when other players are in form. The perception that certain Ulster players who are in better form that other contenders (Court over Kilcoyne, Henry over POM, Trimble over all other Irish wings) are ignored in favourite of other players is unfortunate.

We're Irish George we don't need a rationale....

What time the team announced?

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
Why Ulster players sometimes lose out is we have much less coverage in the rugby press than Leinster/Munster. So if its a tight call (i.e. Kilcoyne vs Court, O'Mahony vs Henry, Fitzgerald vs Trimble) the IRFU normally go for the guy who will please the most people, cause the least stink in the papers and keep the most casual fans happy. Its rarely the Ulsterman, is all.

Therein lies the big problem. Seperate media coverage does lead to big descrepencies on how we view Ulster players vs the others.

The league table doesn't lie though, nor does the Heino.

Cue the NIQ argument and the complete ignorance of the influence of IQs, coaching team and tactics...

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
What has Fitzgerald done that Trimble hasn't far exceeded?

Not had a shocker on Friday? (although neither player got too much ball) Had potential to be a more serious threat?

I would have no problem with Trimble getting the shout over Luke, because A Luke is only back playing a wet day. B Trimble is in good form at HC level and C both of them will only be holding Tackle bags anyway.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
What has Kilcoyne done that Court hasn't bested?

Perhaps shown up better in the loose and been 10 years (or so) younger. Again I would have no problem with Court being in the team over Killer. In fact I would have him on the bench v England and France because he is currently a better scrumager than Killer.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
What has D'Arcy done that McSharry couldn't do playing with superior players?

Getting a bit silly now. McSharry is a player I like but he is limited enough. Darce in good form and would probably be better on one leg than McSharry. That may well not be true in another year. Would have Luke Marshall ahead of McSharry anyway.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Add Marmion to that one.

Way too early for him. He has come on hugely in the last year though.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:It seems for Ireland that form is irrelevant to national selection. In this case it is mostly Ulster players who are the victims but that is just this occasion. Many other players have felt the brunt over the past decade from O'Sullivan and Kidney. We have arguably had the consistently best squad alongside France in that time. How is the trophy cabinet fairing?

No arguement from me on the coaching ticket.

George Carlin wrote:To the extent that one exists, what would be the rationale for inter-provincial bias amongst the selection team? Just asking, like.

I don't think there is inter-provincial bias, I think certain players are less marketable than others is all. I think the tail is wagging the dog in that the media and the IRFUs own PR people have a greater input into what players should be picked than form does. There's no anti-Ulster conspiracy, our lads just lose out sometimes because we have our own media outside the mainstream Irish sports press. There's very few people to speak up for them when they are doing well whereas a good performance in Munster colours will lead to universal acclaim. Therefore yes it is easier to make the team if you play for Munster or Leinster but not because of bias, but because selection is based more on reputation and public perception than actual merit.

The only bias against Ulster is in the Southern Media. Unfortunately the media is way too influential when it comes to matters like these.

Team announcement at 13:30

https://www.606v2.com/t39996-wales-vs-ireland-six-nations

Notch wrote:selection is based more on reputation and public perception than actual merit.

I'd actually agree with this Notch to some extent.

I agree that form is given little consideration and other factors (such as being a young player, being versatile or being experienced) are too heavily stacked. I think you make too big a deal of the whole media thing though.

I think this is the most competative championship for some time. There could be five teams still in the mix by the end of round three.

Guys we're scrapping amongst ourselves don't you see that's just what kidney Wants!!! Divide and conquer bish bash bosh new 3 year deal.

Irish rugby says the team is announced at lunch time. Fairly ambiguous....

I've been very quiet on this thread up until now....

All I'm going to say is that the sooner Irish rugby gets rid of Declan Kidney the better. With regards to Ulster there is always some sort of excuse when it comes to our performance ie;

We only won the Heineken cause there were no English teams in it.
Our players aren't as good for Ireland as they are for Ulster.
Ulster are only playing well because of their foreign players.
etc..

If Ulster were to win the HC this season I have no doubt that a lot of the Southern media would find some argument in the way of it not being the same as Munster and Leinster's victories.

I also agree with the above sentiments that when an Ulster player doesn't come up with the goods he is dropped very quickly yet the likes of Gordon D'Arcy are given several seasons worth of international caps to try and regain their form.

For me the big selection call in this squad (aside from Trimble being dropped) is the possibility of Kidney not playing Henry.

I've always said Kidney likes his Munster men in particular and if O'Mahony is picked ahead of Henry it will just be a continuation of that. Henry has made the highest number of tackles of any player in this seasons HC with 74. He has made the third most turnovers in the HC, behind Best and Tipuric and is in the playing form of his life right now. He is not just the form openside in Ireland but the form backrow in Ireland, yet here we are again dealing with the fact that he may not make the team. A Welsh fan on here said recently that they were amazed Henry didn't have 50 caps for Ireland by now, whilst that might be a bit over the top, if Henry doesn't get a go the form his in now he must surely be the most wasted and under utilized player of that ability in Ireland for a long long time. Especially given that he has spent his whole career in Ireland. If his current form isn't good enough now, I doubt Kidney will ever consider him to be good enough.

Notch -we've disagreed on this before - I think that certain segments of the southern media do have a thing about Ulster players although I wouldn't go as far as to call it discrimination. When there is a 50/50 call to be made between a Munster or Leinster player and an Ulster player the media down there will have the southern player flying through every time. I come from a GAA family and its the same there, southern GAA has a massive chip on its shoulder towards Ulster GAA. I don't think Kidney discriminates against Ulster player but perhaps does discriminate in favour of Munster players.

Finally - I know I'm not the only one absolutely bloody cringing at the thought of O'Gara getting another 5 minunte cameo at the end of the Wales game, but its pretty likely to happen. If Kidney proves me wrong on the above with the announcement due any minute now, I'll gladly give him another chance despite his poor performance as Ireland coach so far, but I'm not holding my breath.

Willy, it will be at 13:30 the live stream is up on the IRFU site.

Glas did you see that Eddie Butler has predicted Wales, Ireland, England and France to have a four way tie at the top of the league with France winning on points difference.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:[ However I don't think it is an 'agenda' more than a deeply ingrained partitionist mindset that is visible in southern society in much more than rugby selection.

We tried to avoid partition. We wanted to keep all youse lads in with us, but you kept turning us away

90 years of rejection will ingrain stuff in people.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
What has Fitzgerald done that Trimble hasn't far exceeded?

Not had a shocker on Friday? (although neither player got too much ball) Had potential to be a more serious threat?

There in lies the case in point. How can he have had a shocker if neither player got the ball? How can you judge a wingers performance if the front 5 is mushed all over the park?

How do you define "shocker"?

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
What has Fitzgerald done that Trimble hasn't far exceeded?

Not had a shocker on Friday? (although neither player got too much ball) Had potential to be a more serious threat?

There in lies the case in point. How can he have had a shocker if neither player got the ball? How can you judge a wingers performance if the front 5 is mushed all over the park?

How do you define "shocker"?

When he got the ball he didn't look like he wanted it or knew what to do with it. Perhaps Luke got less ball and therefore had less potential to look bad.

Either way I think Trimble may have been a better call, if only for the reason that it sends a bad message when a player (Luke) is only just back fit and he gets the nod over a player who is in form (for his province anyway)

Nothing to do with wanting Luke back for Leinster's trip to Cardiff......I swear.

On that note, I'm actually fairly pleased we'll have Trimble and Cave for the Ospreys match with all our injuries. Just gutted for Trimble on a personal level. We may well have Court as well.

Michael Heaney is 22 and Paul Marshall is 27 - they're likely to be around for a while yet. Reddan and Boss are both 32, Marmion is 20.

Not many Ulster fans are surprised at Marshall's ommission from the squad. He had one disaster of a game, but it was the most important one for him v Munster (in the PRO12 so yes that counts). Any Irish fans who are surprised must watch too much Sky tv - some of whose pundits were pencilling PM in to potential Lions squads! (same with Henry BTW)

Boss being selected for the Wolfhounds over Marmion was incredible. The A games are the perfect opportunity to see if a player has the potential to step up, and Boss's days are indubitably gone. Maybe Kidney hasn't got the guts to tell guys like Boss and Trimble that they won't play for Ireland again and he'd rather see their careers ignominiously blown away by the wind in Galway.

I would say Trimble will play for Ireland again. If he keeps playing like he is for Ulster he will be holding onto his spot at provincial level and a new coach is (hopefully) likely to come in and want to re-evaluate things.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
What has Fitzgerald done that Trimble hasn't far exceeded?

Not had a shocker on Friday? (although neither player got too much ball) Had potential to be a more serious threat?

There in lies the case in point. How can he have had a shocker if neither player got the ball? How can you judge a wingers performance if the front 5 is mushed all over the park?

How do you define "shocker"?

When he got the ball he didn't look like he wanted it or knew what to do with it. Perhaps Luke got less ball and therefore had less potential to look bad.

Well from what I saw Trimble fielded numerous kicks under pressure and generally had very little opportunity to impress. Luke stepped about a bit and looked sharp but butchered a try scoring opportunity by running the wrong line when Cave made a break.

Trimble wasn't as poor as made out and Fitzgerald nowhere near as impressive. Bests backs were McSharry and Jackson by a country mile and the only shockers were Varley and Bent imo.

I worry for the provinces too, now Sexton has gone to France. If Kidney isn't picking the form players and french clubs come in for them then they might just say whats keeping me here, Ireland can recover from such losses the provinces on the other hand will struggle more to recover. While maybe not huge to Ireland someone like Henry is huge to Ulster, O'Donnell is huge to Munster etc and those players don't just grow on trees

Prediction:

Healy-best-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
Pom-heaslip-sob
Murray-sexton
Darcy-bod
Zebo-Kearney-earls

Cronin-kilcoyne-bent-doc-Henry-redden-rog-McFadden

You all owe me a euro if I get it right!

rodders wrote:Bests backs were McSharry and Jackson by a country mile and the only shockers were Varley and Bent imo.

Conor George from the Indo doesn't agree with you...

Irish Independent wrote:Henshaw's outing was in stark contrast to that of a number of his peers, not least out-half Paddy Jackson, whose troubles from the kicking-tee were again highlighted.

When Jackson shanked his first kick barely a minute into the contest, it was a reminder that while he can direct his players around the pitch with an array of accurate kicks from the hand, his lack of accuracy from tee is continuing to hold him back.

Thats the official paper (and journalist) of Munster Rugby. If he's criticised in their pages it's because the O'Gara fanclub perceive him as a threat.

I've said time and time again that our three 10s should be Sexton, Madigan and Keatley. Part of that is that if Jackson is picked and isn't immediately brilliant the vultures in the press will hang him out to dry. A bit like Tommy Bowe getting 0/10 and then being dropped for a long time on the back of it.

The Indo is officially Munsters Newspaper. They run a Munster rugby section every Friday and have an official affiliation to them.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/11404.php

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Notch wrote:They're chatting on the UAFC about an Ulster player being asked to be part of a training camp to play the Welsh defender and him turning it down to return to his province. Now thats a terrible forum and it's most likely B.S. But if it's not?

After all, in the Heineken Cup you have Trimble, one of the form wingers, Court the form loosehead in Europe and Chris Henry the form openside. It wouldn't be a surprise if Henry was the only one to make the 23 and even then only on the bench. I imagine if thats the case, Ulster players will be just as disillusioned as the vast majority of Ulster fans seem to be with Ireland.

I would just like to be reassured that the coaches are the ones making the selection decisions and not people in administrative roles above their heads, but don't see how that can happen. Either way, I can't see Kidney being one to command much respect in the dressing room right now all thing considered.

The administrative roles have known for a long time that the support from the North is a valuable thing to have, they always buy up a good number of tickets for games, I wouldn't be surprised if they have more than their fair share of 10 year tickets for lansdowne rd (plenty of northie accents any time I've managed to get into that level).

It was between Trimble/Luke/Gilroy for the final two winger spots in the squad. Luke has effectively won the task of being one of these 'welsh defenders' in training. Gilroy has taken Trimble's starting position.
I'd be hard pressed to have Court starting in front of Healy (who I think has been the form loosehead in Europe). He should have the bench spot for sure, Kilcoyne was in that scrum that went so badly that Bent was written off, the loosehead side was going backwards almost faster than the tighthead side at times).
Henry should have a starting jersey. At least the bench spot. The backrows must come from Heaslip, Henry, SOB, POM and Henderson.

You would have Court ahead of Healy.. really??

To clarify, I wouldn't. I think Healy is the form loosehead in Europe, not Court.

any minute now....

No Henry what a joke

No Chris Henry, no Tom Court

At least the right call on Earls was made.

red_stag wrote:The Indo is officially Munsters Newspaper. They run a Munster rugby section every Friday and have an official affiliation to them.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/11404.php

... if the Indo is biased towards Munster - does the IT redress this balance towards Leinster?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Prediction:

Healy-best-Ross
Ryan-McCarthy
Pom-heaslip-sob
Murray-sexton
Darcy-bod
Zebo-Kearney-earls

Cronin-kilcoyne-bent-doc-Henry-redden-rog-McFadden

You all owe me a euro if I get it right!

Gilroy at 14 Dekkie Fitz at 18 and Earls at 23

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:


Gilroy at 14 Dekkie Fitz at 18 and Earls at 23

I like all those picks,Fitz might not be fit but at least the scrum won't implode when he comes on.

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
03 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy
06 Peter O'Mahony
07 Sean O'Brien
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)
09 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Simon Zebo
12 Gordon Darcy
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Declan Fitzpatrick
19 Donnacha O'Callaghan
20 Chris Henry
21 Eoin Reddan
22 Ronan O'Gara
23 Keith Earls

By and large a good team. Only thing I'd have liked to see was Chris Henry.

POM over Henry. Kidney has gone for three big ball carriers. POM isn't anywhere near the caliber of Ferris and how did POM/SOB/Heaslip axis. Lessons once again aren't learnt and players in outstanding form are ignored. Jesus wept.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:


Gilroy at 14 Dekkie Fitz at 18 and Earls at 23

I like all those picks,Fitz might not be fit but at least the scrum won't implode when he comes on.

Fitz is a proper prop. He has earned his chance.

IRFU could have used the money spent on Michael Bent to keep Sexton at Leinster.

I'm worried our back line is going to get flattened.
Gilroy could get run over by north, Zebo by Cuthbert...

Ffs sake our best ball carrier at 7. We could struggle at the breakdown big time now. Should have picked Henry.

Toml,

Lets put the Welsh wingers on the back foot. Gilroy and Zebo attacking all over the park. Kearney sound under any aerial threats. A backline of square pegs in square holes.

Backrow aside thats an excellent team.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Ffs sake our best ball carrier at 7. We could stryggle at the breakdown big time now. Should have picked Henry.

Yes that one of things that has hurt us in the past. Wales have tended to have better balanced backrow units than us.

toml wrote:I'm worried our back line is going to get flattened.
Gilroy could get run over by north, Zebo by Cuthbert...

I agree. Gilroys defence is not a strength of his game. If they create space I worry about them making micemeat of out back three. Kearney's last ditch tackling is questionable, Zebo's is passable.

I'm very, very frustrated by the Chris Henry call.

We need Rory Best and Brian O'Driscoll to pick up the openside slack I guess. As for the wings, I see last ditch tackling being an issue a mile away.

red_stag wrote:01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
03 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy
06 Peter O'Mahony
07 Sean O'Brien
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)
09 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Simon Zebo
12 Gordon Darcy
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Declan Fitzpatrick
19 Donnacha O'Callaghan
20 Chris Henry
21 Eoin Reddan
22 Ronan O'Gara
23 Keith Earls

By and large a good team. Only thing I'd have liked to see was Chris Henry.

I'm actually among the minority here and pretty happy with that team. Backline looks very balanced and although its tough on Henry, O'Brien is seen as first choice 7 and POM second choice 6 so their is logic to that selection. Best of all....

......Earls finally gets picked in his best position ...... ....

O'Mahony is more of a 7 than a 6 and O'Brien is more of a 6 than a 7... we really needed it to be O'Brien and Henry at 6 and 7.

Its a good team

Notch wrote:O'Mahony is more of a 7 than a 6 and O'Brien is more of a 6 than a 7... we really needed it to be O'Brien and Henry at 6 and 7.

+1

I think apart from that there aren't too many major issues.

red_stag wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:


Gilroy at 14 Dekkie Fitz at 18 and Earls at 23

I like all those picks,Fitz might not be fit but at least the scrum won't implode when he comes on.

Fitz is a proper prop. He has earned his chance.

IRFU could have used the money spent on Michael Bent to keep Sexton at Leinster.

I would agree wth you about Henry being the only change I would make. Not massively depressed with him on the bench though.

Him and POM could be used like McLaughlin and Jennings are for Leinster.

i.e Seanie goes to 6 at some point and Henry comes on at 7

Don't think there is much between Fitz and Bent.

Fitz should be there as the better scrumager, but feck all in it overall. Bent was stupidly hyped in Nov and now underhyped. He will hopefully improve at scrumtime the more NH games he gets under his belt.

RubyGuby wrote:Its a good team

Cheers Ruby, always lightening the mood with the thumbs up Thats what I like. Hows Wales team likely to look.

We will look devastating - here it is

1 - Adam
2 - Hibbard
3 - Jenkins
4 - Kohn
5 - Evans
6 - Ryan J
7 - Warburton
8 - Toby
9 - Iron Mike
10 - Biggar
11 - North
12 - JD
13 - Jamie R
14 - Cuthbert
15 1/2p

What a confidence inspiring gem from Declan Kidney in that press conference;

"The lads who didn't make the cut arguably trained better than those who did."

Right, well thats good to know. The guys who weren't picked are the ones that impressed most in training. Clearly this is a positive

red_stag wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:


Gilroy at 14 Dekkie Fitz at 18 and Earls at 23

I like all those picks,Fitz might not be fit but at least the scrum won't implode when he comes on.

Fitz is a proper prop. He has earned his chance.

IRFU could have used the money spent on Michael Bent to keep Sexton at Leinster.

The cost of Bent could barely have covered Johnny's ego, let along the remainder of his salary. (okay, I might be a bit bitter)

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:O'Mahony is more of a 7 than a 6 and O'Brien is more of a 6 than a 7... we really needed it to be O'Brien and Henry at 6 and 7.

+1

I think apart from that there aren't too many major issues.

Seanie is getting a lot of time at 7 for Leinster and plays there even more for Ireland.

I see POM as a 6 or even an 8 before I see him at 7.

Funny thing is though. POM SOB and Henry can ALL play right across the back row. Which is great.