Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
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Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Rafa has a ridiculously good record on clay. 254 wins and only 19 losses (win/loss ratio of 93.04). I thought it would be interesting to see who he lost to and when
In 2003 Rafa lost to Moya, Gonzalez, Lapentti, Gaudio, Correttja, Coria and Volandri
2004 Mutis, Ferrer and Guadio
2005 Andreev and Guadio
2006 Didn't lose!
2007 Federer
2008 Ferrero
2009 Federer and Soderling
2010 Didn't lose
2011 Djokovic twice
2012 Tiriac oops I mean Verdasco
So seven of Rafa's losses took place when he wasn't really old enough to be out without his mothers permission. If I remove them Rafa now has 234 wins and only 12 losses (win loss ratio of 95.12). I'm tempted to remove the stats up to April 2005 when he lost to Andreev too. He was still only 18 but I don't want to upset anyone... Rafa has only lost one five set match on clay to Soderling. When a player is as dominant as this any loss is an anomaly and it is difficult not to look for reasons for such an unusual occurrence. Why were these few matches different? Untested surface, blisters, mental or physical fatigue or of course exceptional play by an opponent.
Being so good in Sport is unusual but doesn't necessarily get the appreciation that a more unusual win will get. There isn't much of a story line if a player just keeps winning. It isn't "news" although conversely it is big news when a loss occurs. Not many players in any sport are good enough to "own" something in the way that Rafa owns clay. He is therefore playing to keep what he already owns. So he can't win anything. Whereas all of his opponents on clay are playing with nothing to lose. I'm not sure how he can handle such pressure.
In 2003 Rafa lost to Moya, Gonzalez, Lapentti, Gaudio, Correttja, Coria and Volandri
2004 Mutis, Ferrer and Guadio
2005 Andreev and Guadio
2006 Didn't lose!
2007 Federer
2008 Ferrero
2009 Federer and Soderling
2010 Didn't lose
2011 Djokovic twice
2012 Tiriac oops I mean Verdasco
So seven of Rafa's losses took place when he wasn't really old enough to be out without his mothers permission. If I remove them Rafa now has 234 wins and only 12 losses (win loss ratio of 95.12). I'm tempted to remove the stats up to April 2005 when he lost to Andreev too. He was still only 18 but I don't want to upset anyone... Rafa has only lost one five set match on clay to Soderling. When a player is as dominant as this any loss is an anomaly and it is difficult not to look for reasons for such an unusual occurrence. Why were these few matches different? Untested surface, blisters, mental or physical fatigue or of course exceptional play by an opponent.
Being so good in Sport is unusual but doesn't necessarily get the appreciation that a more unusual win will get. There isn't much of a story line if a player just keeps winning. It isn't "news" although conversely it is big news when a loss occurs. Not many players in any sport are good enough to "own" something in the way that Rafa owns clay. He is therefore playing to keep what he already owns. So he can't win anything. Whereas all of his opponents on clay are playing with nothing to lose. I'm not sure how he can handle such pressure.
Last edited by hawkeye on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total
hawkeye- Posts : 5427
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
It is indeed very remarkable and impressive.
Could you put the total number of clay matches for each year, if it's not too much trouble?
I think the knowledge that he is virtually unbeatable actually reduces the pressure and his opponents go in with the mind-set of not believing they can win ("I've got nothing to lose, but I'm going to lose anyway").
All the great sportsmen had that advantage, once a period of dominance is established.
Could you put the total number of clay matches for each year, if it's not too much trouble?
I think the knowledge that he is virtually unbeatable actually reduces the pressure and his opponents go in with the mind-set of not believing they can win ("I've got nothing to lose, but I'm going to lose anyway").
All the great sportsmen had that advantage, once a period of dominance is established.
JuliusHMarx- julius
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
didn't he have a match winning streak on clay of 81?!?!?
phenomenal effort, just unreal!
phenomenal effort, just unreal!
LuvSports!- Posts : 4701
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Difficult to believe anybody certainly in the Open Era come close to such dominance on any given surface.
Thinking about it on grass would it be a close call in terms % matches won between Sampras and Federer?
Also widening this out slightly who'd have the highest win % on all surfaces? Borg and possibly Connors would be up there with (no surprises here ) Nadal and Federer at a guess.
Thinking about it on grass would it be a close call in terms % matches won between Sampras and Federer?
Also widening this out slightly who'd have the highest win % on all surfaces? Borg and possibly Connors would be up there with (no surprises here ) Nadal and Federer at a guess.
newballs- Posts : 1156
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
On grass Federer now out on his own of all players :
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Grass-Career-List.aspx
But across all surfaces combined, he trails Borg, Nadal, Connors, & Lendl
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Overall-Career-List.aspx
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Grass-Career-List.aspx
But across all surfaces combined, he trails Borg, Nadal, Connors, & Lendl
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Overall-Career-List.aspx
Last edited by lags72 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : omission)
lags72- Posts : 5018
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
I'm amazed Connors is so close to Borg, given that one retired at 26 and the other at 40.
Thin margins at the top, we're talking a handful of matches here and there.
Thin margins at the top, we're talking a handful of matches here and there.
JuliusHMarx- julius
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Starting with 2002, his yearly stats on clay are as follows:
1–1 11–6 14–3 50–2 26–0 31–1 24–1 24–2 22–0 28–2 23–1 0–0
He has 36 tournament wins out of 55 participations, 254 match wins and 19 defeats.
I wonder if he ever won the first set in any of those 19 defeats?
I don't agree with HE that you need to explain all his defeats after 2005 as aberrations, he's human and his level and that of his opponents invariably changes. Also, some of the wins have been quite tight - especially a couple vs. Federer, one or two vs. Djoko, and even Murray and Isner each pushed him hard once.
I often wonder whether it would have made a difference to the Fedal rivalry had Federer won that final in Rome 2006.
1–1 11–6 14–3 50–2 26–0 31–1 24–1 24–2 22–0 28–2 23–1 0–0
He has 36 tournament wins out of 55 participations, 254 match wins and 19 defeats.
I wonder if he ever won the first set in any of those 19 defeats?
I don't agree with HE that you need to explain all his defeats after 2005 as aberrations, he's human and his level and that of his opponents invariably changes. Also, some of the wins have been quite tight - especially a couple vs. Federer, one or two vs. Djoko, and even Murray and Isner each pushed him hard once.
I often wonder whether it would have made a difference to the Fedal rivalry had Federer won that final in Rome 2006.
barrystar- Posts : 2960
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
@Barry ... which tournament on Clay in 2002 did you start with?
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
laverfan wrote:@Barry ... which tournament on Clay in 2002 did you start with?
I must confess, the same as wikipedia!
barrystar- Posts : 2960
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
2012 (Losses - 1)
Madrid - R16 Fernando Verdasco (ESP) 19 L 3-6, 6-3, 5-7
2011 (Losses - 2)
Rome - F Novak Djokovic (SRB) 2 L 4-6, 4-6
Madrid - F Novak Djokovic (SRB) 2 L 5-7, 4-6
2009 (Losses - 2)
RG - R16 Robin Soderling (SWE) 25 L 2-6, 7-6(2), 4-6, 6-7(2)
Madrid - F Roger Federer (SUI) 2 L 4-6, 4-6
2008 (Losses - 1)
Rome - R32 Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP) 23 L 5-7, 1-6
2007 (Losses - 1)
Hamburg - F Roger Federer (SUI) 1 L 6-2, 2-6, 0-6
2005 (Losses - 2)
Valencia - Q Igor Andreev (RUS) 47 L 5-7, 2-6
Buenos Aires - Q Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 8 L 6-0, 0-6, 1-6
2004 (Losses - 3)
Palermo - R16 Olivier Mutis (FRA) 113 L 3-6, 3-6
Stuttgart - Q David Ferrer (ESP) 47 L 3-6, 7-6(3), 5-7
Bastad - Q Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 11 L 2-6, 3-6
Estoril - Q Irakli Labadze (GEO) 52 L W/O
2003 (Losses - 6)
Umag - S Carlos Moya (ESP) 4 L 4-6, 4-6
Stuttgart - R32 Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 14 L 2-6, 6-3, 2-6
Bastad - Q Nicolas Lapentti (ECU) 76 L 6-3, 3-6, 6-7(6)
Hamburg - R16 Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 29 L 2-6, 2-6
Barcelona - R32 Alex Corretja (ESP) 17 L 6-3, 2-6, 1-6
Monte Carlo - R16 Guillermo Coria (ARG) 26 L 6-7(3), 2-6
2002 (Losses - 1)
Barcelona - S Albert Portas (ESP) 96 L 2-6, 1-6
I cannot find #19 unless I include the Barcelona 2002 Challenger.
I know at some point in the past, the Futures/Challengers were counted towards a career w/l, just cannot find the reference now.
Madrid - R16 Fernando Verdasco (ESP) 19 L 3-6, 6-3, 5-7
2011 (Losses - 2)
Rome - F Novak Djokovic (SRB) 2 L 4-6, 4-6
Madrid - F Novak Djokovic (SRB) 2 L 5-7, 4-6
2009 (Losses - 2)
RG - R16 Robin Soderling (SWE) 25 L 2-6, 7-6(2), 4-6, 6-7(2)
Madrid - F Roger Federer (SUI) 2 L 4-6, 4-6
2008 (Losses - 1)
Rome - R32 Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP) 23 L 5-7, 1-6
2007 (Losses - 1)
Hamburg - F Roger Federer (SUI) 1 L 6-2, 2-6, 0-6
2005 (Losses - 2)
Valencia - Q Igor Andreev (RUS) 47 L 5-7, 2-6
Buenos Aires - Q Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 8 L 6-0, 0-6, 1-6
2004 (Losses - 3)
Palermo - R16 Olivier Mutis (FRA) 113 L 3-6, 3-6
Stuttgart - Q David Ferrer (ESP) 47 L 3-6, 7-6(3), 5-7
Bastad - Q Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 11 L 2-6, 3-6
2003 (Losses - 6)
Umag - S Carlos Moya (ESP) 4 L 4-6, 4-6
Stuttgart - R32 Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 14 L 2-6, 6-3, 2-6
Bastad - Q Nicolas Lapentti (ECU) 76 L 6-3, 3-6, 6-7(6)
Hamburg - R16 Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 29 L 2-6, 2-6
Barcelona - R32 Alex Corretja (ESP) 17 L 6-3, 2-6, 1-6
Monte Carlo - R16 Guillermo Coria (ARG) 26 L 6-7(3), 2-6
2002 (Losses - 1)
Barcelona - S Albert Portas (ESP) 96 L 2-6, 1-6
I cannot find #19 unless I include the Barcelona 2002 Challenger.
I know at some point in the past, the Futures/Challengers were counted towards a career w/l, just cannot find the reference now.
Last edited by laverfan on Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:42 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Updated and corrected.)
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
He's amazing.
User 774433- Posts : 5067
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Those stats are insane!
I wonder chris Evert's record on clay was like.
She's probably the only one who comes close to Rafa.
I wonder chris Evert's record on clay was like.
She's probably the only one who comes close to Rafa.
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
emancipator wrote:Those stats are insane!
I wonder chris Evert's record on clay was like.
She's probably the only one who comes close to Rafa.
Should we not look at Borg, Vilas or Lendl?
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Yeah it would be interesting although I suspect they will be far behind Rafa.
Evert may be closer.
Evert may be closer.
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
That 2008 loss to Ferrero was undoubtedly due to those horrendous blisters he had coming into the event from the Barcelona event he won on Sunday a few days earlier. He said "Today when I woke up, I said it was impossible to play," Nadal said. "I spoke to the doctor today and yesterday, and they put special protection on it and cream, but it was still tough.". That was his 2nd loss on clay in 105 matches and we saw what he did a fortnight later at RG.
On the very toughest and demanding of all surfaces his stats are quite unreal. We're unlikely to see these stats happen again in our lifetimes. Lets see what he can add to the stats from next week...
On the very toughest and demanding of all surfaces his stats are quite unreal. We're unlikely to see these stats happen again in our lifetimes. Lets see what he can add to the stats from next week...
lydian- Posts : 9178
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
I've split the discussion on Evert to a new topic. This one's for Rafa!
JuliusHMarx- julius
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
JuliusHMarx wrote:I've split the discussion on Evert to a new topic. This one's for Rafa!
Genius with a Silver Tongue.
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
For once I am in agreement HE
carrieg4- Posts : 1829
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Wow, my last post was in really bad English. Sorry I had a dry January, now I have one drink and forget how to form coherent sentences.
carrieg4- Posts : 1829
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
hawkeye wrote:cough!
Not sure what you meant, HE? That I am not fit for an Edberg award... yet.
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
carrieg4 wrote:Wow, my last post was in really bad English. Sorry I had a dry January, now I have one drink and forget how to form coherent sentences.
You just need a bit of practice and you will be back like Nadal.
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
laverfan wrote:carrieg4 wrote:Wow, my last post was in really bad English. Sorry I had a dry January, now I have one drink and forget how to form coherent sentences.
You just need a bit of practice and you will be back like Nadal.
carrieg4- Posts : 1829
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Back like Nadal - good.
Knees like Nadal - not so good
Knees like Nadal - not so good
JuliusHMarx- julius
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
laverfan wrote:hawkeye wrote:cough!
Not sure what you meant, HE? That I am not fit for an Edberg award... yet.
laverfan. If someone coughs and you don't understand why don't try and put meaning behind it and then take the blame (and cry). You will turn my cough into something it wasn't.
hawkeye- Posts : 5427
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
hawkeye wrote:laverfan wrote:hawkeye wrote:cough!
Not sure what you meant, HE? That I am not fit for an Edberg award... yet.
laverfan. If someone coughs and you don't understand why don't try and put meaning behind it and then take the blame (and cry). You will turn my cough into something it wasn't.
I had much rather seek clarification, rather than get accused of going postal.
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
You could send an e-mail, unless that's going e-postal.
JuliusHMarx- julius
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
JuliusHMarx wrote:You could send an e-mail, unless that's going e-postal.
:roflmao:
laverfan- Moderator
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
From 2005 onwards would be an interesting stat. That's when he became good. Although I don't think anyone could justify excluding Andreev and starting at a random point in the year.
2005: 50–2
2006: 26–0
2007: 31–1
2008: 24–1
2009: 24–2
2010: 22–0
2011: 28–2
2012: 23–1
Total 228-9 (96.2%)
2005: 50–2
2006: 26–0
2007: 31–1
2008: 24–1
2009: 24–2
2010: 22–0
2011: 28–2
2012: 23–1
Total 228-9 (96.2%)
Henman Bill- Posts : 5265
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Overall-Career-List.aspx
For Connors to get so high, even above Federer, despite playing so many years, is tremendously impressive.
I do think he might have played more minor tournaments, and that there wasn't a masters series with top players continually facing off. Even so, wow.
For Connors to get so high, even above Federer, despite playing so many years, is tremendously impressive.
I do think he might have played more minor tournaments, and that there wasn't a masters series with top players continually facing off. Even so, wow.
Henman Bill- Posts : 5265
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Re: Rafa's Really Ridiculous Record On Clay
Rafa will go first ahead of Borg if he wins his next 2 matches.
Henman Bill- Posts : 5265
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