Six Nations: Wales - Ireland Post Match Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Wales 22 - Ireland 30

Wales:
Tries - Cuthbert (47 min), Halfpenny (58 min), Mitchell (75 min)
Convs - Halfpenny 2/3
Pens - Halfpenny 1/1

Ireland:
Tries - Zebo (10 min), Healy (23 min), O'Driscoll (42 min)
Convs - Sexton 3/3
Pens - Sexton 3/3


Match Stats:
http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/match/133782.html

think the Kidney clock has just slowed down considerably. If we win a grand slam I'd happily concede he deserves an extension even if I think his coaching and management style is quite flawed.

Tec

tecphobe wrote:It looks to me like Poitre decided to make the match competitive in the second even the most marginal of calls went the way of Wales.

I'm only commenting on the second half as that is all i saw you comment on (the quote above). I don't remember a series of penalties in the welsh 22 in the first half though. Lets be honest they just weren't competing at all!! but if my memory is just failing i agree, yellow cards should come in the the first 10 minutes if they are warranted, not just the last 20 as is often the case.

I also agree with the foot in Sextons face, it may have been accidental but in this day and age the players know the results if they connect, and shouldn't do it... penalty to ireland there in my opinion, still a great finish from halfpenny though...

xx

If Kidney wins the Slam he should be awarded the freedom of Dublin 4! ...and given his very own pink cardigan.

It's true. If he wins the Slam... he's proven he deserves more time. If he wins the Championship he deserves more time in my eyes. If he comes 2nd, I wouldn't be on his case either.

I'm not a perfectionist but I do want constant evidence that we are rising from our inconsistency gloom. Constant evidence..in every game that we are leaving inconsistency behind us as our callingcard.

Kidney's record over the last four years has been on the slide, with supposedly the players so frustrated they took control of the Pumas game to stop the run of defeats (including the record breaking NZ game). Now Kidney is being hailed as a tactical genius for overseeing Ireland beating an introspective, demoralised and poorly selected Wales in Cardiff (themselves on a bad run of defeats)? It's ironic that despite having a match winning half-time lead Ireland almost managed to lose the game as the change in the Welsh tactics wasn't forseen by Kidney.

Irrespective of Ireland winning the Triple Crown this year, (or better) Kidney shouldn't leave it up to the IRFU to re-hire him, but rather he should grab the opportunity to retire on a high. He will undoubtedly be offered Director of Rugby (or some such title), and can oversee the new Head Coach on the perfect introductory tour this summer.

Fly, Aukster I share your scepticism.

I just desperately want to see another Grandslam and one game in this looks as good a chance as we've had in 3 seasons given the fixtures.

I'd rather not discuss Kidneys role until after the championship. All the matters to me is that we got over a huge hurdle in beating Wales and now we have another huge one against England.

If Ireland win the slam, Ulster win the Heino and BOD captains the Lions then Kidney can get a 10 year extension for all I care!

The Great Aukster wrote:Kidney's record over the last four years has been on the slide, with supposedly the players so frustrated they took control of the Pumas game to stop the run of defeats (including the record breaking NZ game). Now Kidney is being hailed as a tactical genius for overseeing Ireland beating an introspective, demoralised and poorly selected Wales in Cardiff (themselves on a bad run of defeats)? It's ironic that despite having a match winning half-time lead Ireland almost managed to lose the game as the change in the Welsh tactics wasn't forseen by Kidney.

Irrespective of Ireland winning the Triple Crown this year, (or better) Kidney shouldn't leave it up to the IRFU to re-hire him, but rather he should grab the opportunity to retire on a high. He will undoubtedly be offered Director of Rugby (or some such title), and can oversee the new Head Coach on the perfect introductory tour this summer.

Knowing Kidney's coaching style, I'd say that is exactly what happened. Kidney coached teams usually get the licence to play what is in front of them. I suppose it will take some players who are used to a more rigid gameplan longer to get used to this coaching philosophy.

Simon Zebo's said that the coaching staff always just encourage them to play their own game, not worry about making mistakes and enjoy themselves.

One of yis (Munster or Ulster) better win the bloody HEC!! ... I left a fiver in it and I want it returned to me when that cup comes back home.

SecretFly wrote:If Kidney wins the Slam he should be awarded the freedom of Dublin 4! ...and given his very own pink cardigan.

It's true. If he wins the Slam... he's proven he deserves more time. If he wins the Championship he deserves more time in my eyes. If he comes 2nd, I wouldn't be on his case either.

I'm not a perfectionist but I do want constant evidence that we are rising from our inconsistency gloom. Constant evidence..in every game that we are leaving inconsistency behind us as our callingcard.

For me it depends on the style we do it in.

If we win a Slam like we did in 2009,one good game at the start then dour defensive rugby all the rest of the way I wouldn't want to see him stay on but if we came 2nd or 3rd playing like we did in the 1st half on Saturday I'd have no problem with him staying on.It's performance over results at this stage imo,if the performance is right you usually get the results you deserve.

I have been critical of Kidney in the past and while the results have been disappointing at times it was the dire,uninspired rugby that we were playing that really annoyed me.

Sin é wrote:Simon Zebo's said that the coaching staff always just encourage them to play their own game, not worry about making mistakes and enjoy themselves.

I wish Wales were given the same freedom.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Kidney's record over the last four years has been on the slide, with supposedly the players so frustrated they took control of the Pumas game to stop the run of defeats (including the record breaking NZ game). Now Kidney is being hailed as a tactical genius for overseeing Ireland beating an introspective, demoralised and poorly selected Wales in Cardiff (themselves on a bad run of defeats)? It's ironic that despite having a match winning half-time lead Ireland almost managed to lose the game as the change in the Welsh tactics wasn't forseen by Kidney.

Irrespective of Ireland winning the Triple Crown this year, (or better) Kidney shouldn't leave it up to the IRFU to re-hire him, but rather he should grab the opportunity to retire on a high. He will undoubtedly be offered Director of Rugby (or some such title), and can oversee the new Head Coach on the perfect introductory tour this summer.

Knowing Kidney's coaching style, I'd say that is exactly what happened. Kidney coached teams usually get the licence to play what is in front of them. I suppose it will take some players who are used to a more rigid gameplan to get used to this coaching philosophy.

Simon Zebo's said that the coaching staff always just encourage them to play their own game, not worry about making mistakes and enjoy themselves.

While this has always been Kidneys style it is clear that if the team and individual players play below their capabilities then = Kidneys fault, if they and the team play well = Nothing to do with Kidney. I suppose we should still get rid of Les Kiss as well as the backline probably ignored him as well.

I hated that 'soccer' flick! It was show-offy and just stank of Kidney telling Zebo he better do it in one of the halves or else he was off the team! No player should be placed under so much pressure to enjoy himself like that in a crucial game.



There - that's gotta get me brownie points for Sheer Misery

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Sin é wrote:Simon Zebo's said that the coaching staff always just encourage them to play their own game, not worry about making mistakes and enjoy themselves.

I wish Wales were given the same freedom.

Really I heard Biggar was encouraged to make mistakes and the media were encouraged not to notice.....

The French were encouraged to throw their first game so that they'd spring big surprises on the rest and win the GrandSlam in style!!!

I think they mixed up their 6N rules with the HEC ones or something. Oh well, next year will make them wiser

That is 2 good games in a row against 'pretty good' opposition. I would not consider this enough to re-hire Kidney.

If he continued this further and won the slam or championship I'd say yeah that is fair enough.

We really have to learn to put in an 80minute performance however, it is something that just has not been done from Ireland in the Kidney era. Even in games where we have played well there has always been times where have just simply stopped playing

DOD wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Kidney's record over the last four years has been on the slide, with supposedly the players so frustrated they took control of the Pumas game to stop the run of defeats (including the record breaking NZ game). Now Kidney is being hailed as a tactical genius for overseeing Ireland beating an introspective, demoralised and poorly selected Wales in Cardiff (themselves on a bad run of defeats)? It's ironic that despite having a match winning half-time lead Ireland almost managed to lose the game as the change in the Welsh tactics wasn't forseen by Kidney.

Irrespective of Ireland winning the Triple Crown this year, (or better) Kidney shouldn't leave it up to the IRFU to re-hire him, but rather he should grab the opportunity to retire on a high. He will undoubtedly be offered Director of Rugby (or some such title), and can oversee the new Head Coach on the perfect introductory tour this summer.

Knowing Kidney's coaching style, I'd say that is exactly what happened. Kidney coached teams usually get the licence to play what is in front of them. I suppose it will take some players who are used to a more rigid gameplan to get used to this coaching philosophy.

Simon Zebo's said that the coaching staff always just encourage them to play their own game, not worry about making mistakes and enjoy themselves.

While this has always been Kidneys style it is clear that if the team and individual players play below their capabilities then = Kidneys fault, if they and the team play well = Nothing to do with Kidney. I suppose we should still get rid of Les Kiss as well as the backline probably ignored him as well.

I know - Schmidt should have been sacked after the very poor performance Leinster had against Northampton in the first half f the HC final and Jonathan Sexton made coach for inspiring the comeback.

Worrying part for Ireland is that the first half was difficult to judge, Wales offered nothing and we have seen Argentina and Samoa score tries for fun against them recently, then as soon as Wales put some phase play together they wilted under what wasn't severe pressure.

Job done though, win's in the bag, just forget the performance and move on.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Worrying part for Ireland is that the first half was difficult to judge, Wales offered nothing and we have seen Argentina and Samoa score tries for fun against them recently, then as soon as Wales put some phase play together they wilted under what wasn't severe pressure.

Job done though, win's in the bag, just forget the performance and move on.

Fair comments.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Worrying part for Ireland is that the first half was difficult to judge, Wales offered nothing and we have seen Argentina and Samoa score tries for fun against them recently, then as soon as Wales put some phase play together they wilted under what wasn't severe pressure.

Job done though, win's in the bag, just forget the performance and move on.

Yeah it's tough to really know what to make of a game like that,I've seen Ireland play catch up rugby against France a couple of times and it's very hard to say whether we started playing well or they just switched off when the pressure came on.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Worrying part for Ireland is that the first half was difficult to judge, Wales offered nothing and we have seen Argentina and Samoa score tries for fun against them recently, then as soon as Wales put some phase play together they wilted under what wasn't severe pressure.

Job done though, win's in the bag, just forget the performance and move on.

Yeah it's tough to really know what to make of a game like that,I've seen Ireland play catch up rugby against France a couple of times and it's very hard to say whether we started playing well or they just switched off when the pressure came on.

Exactly thats why I wouldn't be too concerned about it. What matters is the score at the end of the game.

I don't know about anyone else but I'd have taken a 1 point win over Wales before the kick off .

I've been quiet since the game. but my thoughts around the Welsh team....

Tips has been the form 7 along with Henry this year in Europe, it would take a blind man (or Howley/Kidney) to not see this.

I understand the rationale for the captain not being dropped (warburton), however, with your most destructive tackler/chopper (lydiate) unavailable, you simply HAVE to involve your brightest spark in his absence (tipuric).

Warburton hasnt been playing that well but hasn't been terrible. He's been playing his way back into form and fitness whilst having his international captaincy and talent questioned by the whole rugby world. His side are on the back of 7/8 defeats, a side that in the main have only known relative success (World cup/6nations).

Frankly, this is a massive learning curve for a lot of these guys, Warburton included. Had Gatland been around and the boys not looking to Howley for inspiration and leadership then I think we'd all be a lot more confortable....

My thoughts on the Welsh:

Gethin Jenkins should not be anywhere near the squad, he's had less gametime this year than Morgan Stoddart had before he retired. Paul James should have started with Rhys Gill on the bench.

Hibbard - form hooker in wales, unsure why exaclty he wasnt in the 23 at all?! I've heard injury being reported but I've also heard a lot of rumours that he isnt injured in the slightest aswell... could anyone actually clarify? I would have had Owens on the bench.


4. Ian Evans - his first game back since November, he did very well, understandably tired after half time.

5. Coombs - played well in the seoncd half, lost the ball in contact in the first a few times, for his debut I was impresssed! Kohn came on and cleared rucks like a demon. Its no coincidence that this guy near seamlessly slipped into the phase-based attacking game Wales favour (The AP champions playing winning rugby in a similar mould?) The lineout fell apart a bit but thats what will happen to a team who's notoriously poor at lineouts at this level without our first choice 3/4 locks. Kohn was and is exactly the stopgap we need.

6. Shingler - better than Turnbull/McCusker would have been but anonymous. Warbs should have started here and been given the type of job Lydiate excels at, get in the irish ball carriers faces and chop, chop, chop, back up, chop some more.

7. Tips should have started. Done to death, this decision alone should seal Howleys fate.

8. Faletau - again excellant playing in a role that isnt natural. He needs to be put into a little space with some shoulders to run at, not set off at a brick wall of a set defence, he'll do it all day but he won't get anywhere, we need to use him for his strengths.

9. Phillips - I actually thought Phillips had a decent game, just becuase Lloyd Williams came on and didnt completely mess up doesnt mean he deserves to replace Phillips away to France. Anyone calling for that is just a plebb, put simply.

10. Biggar - good game, chargedown aside. I'd keep him at 10 for the next game and see how he goes. I'd like to see him given a run of games but that'll be decided by his form (in an ideal world - not the howley world of selection).

11. North - invisible first half, much better in the second.

12. Roberts - only we could take a man of the lions series and use him as a simple battering ram with no runners off his shoulder. He can perform this role very well, but why dont we give the man some options instead of telling him to run straight on his own all the time?!?!?!?!

13. JD2 - not a great game, 2 bad passes, although you could argue they were overrun. His worst game for Wales in years. He has been consistently good prior to that.

14. Cuthbert - we saw his real weakness (defence) and strength (angled running at pace).

15. Halfpenny - excellant, again, Im running out of descriptive words to explain his games. The 2 moments that summed him up for me were 1. Taking the highball above kearney bearing down on him and 2. throwing himself at SOBs legs 1 on 1 and taking the big man down in full stride.

The backs had nothing to work with in the first half, the forward pack got mullered, but what did we expect with the line-up put out....

..they were better the second half, a lot of the form forwards came on and all of a sudden the backs have quality ball to use and they're running at pace. We've been lacking invention in the backline for a while, so that wasnt surprising, however I think we could have won even whilst boshing.

The players played how we should have expected, it was the selection that was terrible, and it cost us.

I sort of know how the Irish feel when they moan about Deccie now

Good game though, Ireland deserved to win in the end no questions from me, I just wish we hadn't given them the first half on a plate, even they seemed a little surprised how easy it was for them!

Funny thing is, whilst I'm not a huge 'BOD for the lions' fan, I think Ireland would have lost that game were he not on the pitch and he was brilliant for 60 minutes.

Comfort

Well considered and thought out, not to mention honest and open. I agree with most of what you said, nice to see someone commenting on Phillips without regurgetating the same old clap!

Bravo

I agree with bluesman. It's an edgy game to put any of your loose change on as regards reading anything into the next rounds.

Ireland were protecting something substantial which gives them an excuse for an over-reliance on the defensive qualities of their game. Wales were chasing the game yes, but moreso I think they were chasing renewed respect and honour and yep, the idea of the bloody Irish too. I really got the sense that the talk in the dressing room was that "This is fekkin' Ireland here. Not bloody New Zealand. Are we going to get plastered by the effing Irish or are we going to show them we've just remembered we're Welsh?"

There was that devil of defiance in that Welsh performance... which was actually enjoyable to see. I love to watch them when they've fallen out of love with boring 'tactics' and just give themselves to sheer willpower and instincts.
My disappointment was that the Irish didn't have thoughts of their own. "So the effing Welsh want to make us look thick again by taking an easily won victory out of our hands so easily again?" But nope, they didn't have the old dogged Irish fire of yesteryear to meet fire with fire. So yes, wonderful defending but I wanted more bite for bite in attacking aggression. That would truly have been the game of the season.

Well said Comfort. Looks like you would agree with my 23 for Paris then, which I posted earlier in the thread.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Comfort

Well considered and thought out, not to mention honest and open. I agree with most of what you said, nice to see someone commenting on Phillips without regurgetating the same old clap!

Bravo

It's been regurgitated for years so don't expect it to stop. Like every scrum half, he needs a platform. When Wales are dominant, the guy is exceptional and brings a lot more to the game than an ordinary scrum half. My problem is, that the Wales management and perhaps some fans think Knoyle can emulate Phillips and be his successor. Just no, is my answer to that.

cheers bluesman, Im gonna read back through the postings since the game, I've seen a couple calling for phillips to be dropped but Im hoping its not the general consensus?!?!

Lloyd Williams starting away facing off against a huge france pack who've just got handed a large smack of motivation of their next game, seems like a classic Howley selection the more I think about it...

Morg, I havent seen it yet, but I'll be sure to check it out, it sounds like you could be a man with similar thoughts.

On Phillips. Drop him by all means. Certainly drop him for any future games against Ireland. I hate to see him because he rattles the Irish so. I really don't know what the Welsh are looking at sometimes. Many of them seem to say he's the slow aspect thrown onto a fast side. I see him as the visceral heart and soul of the Welsh team. Always biting, always blood up and trying to stir up the tempo and aggression. I like him a lot as a player. He's emotional, he's actually a stoker of pace and intent not an impediment to it.

Knoyle is certainly not the answer to our SH problems, and Williams isn't the answer to Cardiff RFC's 9 dillemma!!!

A lot of people are blaming Phillips for everything, but I can't see why, I slate the guy when he plays poorly, but he didn't he was dogged, scrappy and gave Biggar and co just what they wanted 2nd half, not to mention the defencive shift he put in in the first half. When Phillips went off I was gutted, and I spent 10 minutes screaming at Williams to do something hisself, there was 1 incident where we were far left, 1 defender in Zebo on the 5 metre blind side, and I had the notion of Phillips taking him on for the corner, what happened was Williams waving the forwards out of the way, then hit Hook and the first man to Hook was the guy playing 1st guard on the open side, had total confidence Williams was going nowhere, watched him wave the forwards out the way then targetted and nailed Hook!!!

If we had an English-style, dominant, monster pack I could see the argument for replacing Phillips with a Will Genia style scrum half, if we had one.

But we don't, and we don't.

I think its because of Phillips size we consider him slow, hes not, and his passing is generally pretty good, he just doesnt have one of those bullet-type passes and he is prone to a few poor ones a game.

And the argument that we dont need an "extra backrower" and that we "need a real scrumhalf" is laughable. Can someone explain why we want a small tackler falling off forwards instead of a guy who actually tackles like a small backrower with the aggression of an old-school prop?

What happens if you remove Mike Phillips at 9 and bring in another youngster? You get 3 guys playing 8/9/10 who are all under 24 with less than about 30 caps between them.

Yes, cause thats definitely gonna stop our 8 game losing streak, along with our forward pack being picked Gareth Jenkins, away to the french.

Sometimes I depair!!!

Gareth Llewellyn on scrum V says that Wales need to abandon the blitz defence. Just what exactly is a blitz defence? To me it sounds like some strategy obtained from American Football, which I don't think needs to be incorporated into Rugby, as Rugby is a different game entirely from American Football.

gboycottnut wrote:Gareth Llewellyn on scrum V says that Wales need to abandon the blitz defence. Just what exactly is a blitz defence? To me it sounds like some strategy obtained from American Football, which I don't think needs to be incorporated into Rugby, as Rugby is a different game entirely from American Football.

Although, the Farrell to Parling pass against Scotland wouldn't have looked out of place in the Superbowl. Hint of a Hail Mary to a wide receiver about that one?

...and Cuthberts try v Ireland was a bit of a screen move. Mind you Ireland were probably offsides at the line of scrimmage.

Just rewatching the Healy try, Heaslip was definately used as a blocker on the outside of that Sexton rap around run, Davies is clearly blocked by him before getting back in time.

Cuthberts line is arguably because of an obstruction too, and similarly Zebo's try.

The whole game is getting more and more NFL style!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Just rewatching the Healy try, Heaslip was definately used as a blocker on the outside of that Sexton rap around run, Davies is clearly blocked by him before getting back in time.

Cuthberts line is arguably because of an obstruction too, and similarly Zebo's try.

The whole game is getting more and more NFL style!

He's been doing that for years,has it down to an art at this stage.

England benefit from it the most because they are all actually the size of gridiron players.

(Including pads and helmets).

...its really annoying when its done to your team but feels good when one of your players pulls it off.

England have seriously fat props on the bench.

Can anyone actually 100% confirm that Simon Zebo does not have hands for feet?

Cause that could be a knock on...

Comfort wrote:Can anyone actually 100% confirm that Simon Zebo does not have hands for feet?

Cause that could be a knock on...

No but Darcy used to have feet for hands.

Sexton has an arse for a face too.

what is it with you irish?!

Comfort wrote:Sexton has an arse for a face too.

what is it with you irish?!

He is better looking than Sam Warburton. He has Andy Powells arse for a face.

it'd probably would explain his sh*tty form!

I'd kill for Andy Powell right now, a bit of actuall grunt in our back row!!!

Oh god Ive become delusional ^^^

Most arses I know are soft and rounded and smooth and well, some of them are damn good looking if you look at the right ones!

Can't really say that about many rugby faces.

GunsGerms wrote:

Comfort wrote:Sexton has an arse for a face too.

what is it with you irish?!

He is better looking than Sam Warburton. He has Andy Powells arse for a face.

Ah so thats why he looks like a golf buggy.

You must have some funny thoughts about the asses that catch your attention, Rodders. Ah there goes a hole in one.......................

Ah go easy on Sexton's arse face. It's not his fault he was born with an arse for a face. And I'm sure he's reminded of it every day at Leinster when he has to train with "Handsome Cullen", with his flowing blonds locks and chiselled Adonis features. It should be illegal for a rugby player to be that good looking.

My parents were big Cliff Richard fans. My mum had his face tattooed on her @rse, and my dad had his @rse tattooed on his face.

"69 please

Wouldn't you rather have cash..."

Car crash moment at Tesco's tills.