The Crunch: Ireland v England Sunday 10th February 2013

First topic message reminder :

aka L'O'Choc: Irelande v Angleterre Dimanche le 10me Février 2013After going AWOL again yesterday, the French have most likely reduced the 6Ns title to a single game to determine the title.

Such a shame.

Discussion about the game - not about France going walkabout as originally intended.

Teams:

Greater Dublin Representative XXIII

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/42)
14 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/2)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/121)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster/72)
11 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster/4)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St.Mary's College/Leinster/35)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/15)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster/36)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/63)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/25)
4 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht/7)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/24)
6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/10)
7 - Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster/23)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/53) Captain

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/23)
17 - David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/3)
18 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster/3)
19 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/91)
20 - Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster/5)
21 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/48)
22 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/126)
23 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster/35)

The Perfidious Albion

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 7 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 30 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 12 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 1 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 12 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 13 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 29 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 6 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 36 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 5 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)
6. James Haskell (London Wasps, 46 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 13 caps)
8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 43 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 5 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 16 caps)
20. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 38 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
23. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)

Guns,

Sunday games are wrecking my season.

Munster v Edinburgh - Sunday
Saracens v Munster - Sunday
Munster v Racing Metro - Sunday
Harlequins v Munster - Sunday

Ireland v England - Sunday
Scotland v Ireland - Sunday

GunsGerms wrote:I will probably gloat a little if Ireland win. Win lose or draw I look forward to a sing song down the pub. Might even sing swing low again. Why the F is this game on Sunday.

Sorry, gloating is not allowed. Only the English are allowed that activity. It's a national trait bestowed on us by international agreement. The quota you are allowed is happy-paddy. Sorry. Dems de rules.

Welsh enjoy a jolly good gloat, but lately ( 8 times ) are starved of opportunities.

GunsGerms wrote:I will probably gloat a little if Ireland win. Win lose or draw I look forward to a sing song down the pub. Might even sing swing low again. Why the F is this game on Sunday.

I'm going to get my gloating in up front (...just in case we lose )!

Ireland by 8!

gregortree wrote:Welsh enjoy a jolly good gloat, but lately ( 8 times ) are starved of opportunities.

Is that a chinese variant of a cloven-footed Welsh delicacy gregor?

Harsh times. No welcome in the hillsides nor the vales.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
England were impressive v Scotland and I actually dont think they even hit fourth gear. Shane Horgan reckons that we will have to completely avoid an arm wrestle and take England on out wide. I have to admit I agree with this thinking but we will still have to be ultra physical.

Some Ireland fans will tell you that we have a strong backrow and will match England at the breakdown, however, on the evidence of the last few matches I think England are better than us here.

Shane Horgan is spot on. We'll be mushed if we don't get quick ball and move this England side around, peg them back in their own half and attack the lineout. Get the crowd going.

We need to play like we did against Wales for 45 min but do it for 80. Get BOD, leading the back 3 up in the blitz to put pressure on Tuilagi and the back 3.

The choke tackle is a risky policy against the big English backrow - Haskell, Robshaw etc. are immensely strong and will be able to get the ball on the deck more often than not so that tactic needs to be used wisely and sparingly....try and slow England ball up but not overcommit to the breakdown or give Farrell easy shots at goal.

We need a huge performance on Sunday. Bodies on the line and cool heads all round.

Have to say I slightly disagree with this Rodders. This isn't a huge, bruising English pack with carriers all over the place. It's strength is probably work-rate and, lately (can;t believe I'm saying this) accuracy. With SOB and Healy you have two big carriers. Haskell could be ours but he's too upright. Outside of that, there aren't many big carriers with Corbs and Morgan out injured. It's not a pack that bullies teams, if it wins it's because it is more mobile if anything.

I actually think Ireland SHOULD go through the central channels more. England's defence is ok but it doesn't stop people on the gain-line. Normally T Youngs goes low, the guy makes a yard or two over the gainline, the rest of the pack then massively commits to the counter ruck and slows ball down. Scotland did so poorly because they played against type and committed no-one to the rucks. If Ireland smash it with numbers and keep carrying tight, they'll make ground. It's just whether they've got the persistence and accuracy then, which I think they have.

On the choke tackle. Teams expect it, but it can still work. If someone like Wood carries alone, they'll get stood up. The question then is, how quickly can the heavy artillery (i hate military metaphors but I'm lacking imagination) like Morgan or Haskell can get to them and get them on the ground. I could see Haskell getting there a fraction too late each time and some of England's more willowy forwards getting pinged for it. The advantage we might have is that both Parling and Launchbury, although fairly light, both carry quite low-slung with good body positions.

5 points or fewer either way, with the winning side scoring no more than 20 points. Scorers of the first points win the game.

You know it all now and you heard it here first. Apart from which side will win, of course.

Hood83 wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
England were impressive v Scotland and I actually dont think they even hit fourth gear. Shane Horgan reckons that we will have to completely avoid an arm wrestle and take England on out wide. I have to admit I agree with this thinking but we will still have to be ultra physical.

Some Ireland fans will tell you that we have a strong backrow and will match England at the breakdown, however, on the evidence of the last few matches I think England are better than us here.

Shane Horgan is spot on. We'll be mushed if we don't get quick ball and move this England side around, peg them back in their own half and attack the lineout. Get the crowd going.

We need to play like we did against Wales for 45 min but do it for 80. Get BOD, leading the back 3 up in the blitz to put pressure on Tuilagi and the back 3.

The choke tackle is a risky policy against the big English backrow - Haskell, Robshaw etc. are immensely strong and will be able to get the ball on the deck more often than not so that tactic needs to be used wisely and sparingly....try and slow England ball up but not overcommit to the breakdown or give Farrell easy shots at goal.

We need a huge performance on Sunday. Bodies on the line and cool heads all round.

Have to say I slightly disagree with this Rodders. This isn't a huge, bruising English pack with carriers all over the place. It's strength is probably work-rate and, lately (can;t believe I'm saying this) accuracy. With SOB and Healy you have two big carriers. Haskell could be ours but he's too upright. Outside of that, there aren't many big carriers with Corbs and Morgan out injured. It's not a pack that bullies teams, if it wins it's because it is more mobile if anything.

I actually think Ireland SHOULD go through the central channels more. England's defence is ok but it doesn't stop people on the gain-line. Normally T Youngs goes low, the guy makes a yard or two over the gainline, the rest of the pack then massively commits to the counter ruck and slows ball down. Scotland did so poorly because they played against type and committed no-one to the rucks. If Ireland smash it with numbers and keep carrying tight, they'll make ground. It's just whether they've got the persistence and accuracy then, which I think they have.

On the choke tackle. Teams expect it, but it can still work. If someone like Wood carries alone, they'll get stood up. The question then is, how quickly can the heavy artillery (i hate military metaphors but I'm lacking imagination) like Morgan or Haskell can get to them and get them on the ground. I could see Haskell getting there a fraction too late each time and some of England's more willowy forwards getting pinged for it. The advantage we might have is that both Parling and Launchbury, although fairly light, both carry quite low-slung with good body positions.

Potentially though you could have both Vunipola bros on the bench and Tuilagi too. That's quite a bit of bulk that could be unleashed in the last 20 minutes.

greytiger wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I like the odds checker link.

To me I think the odds compilers actually think Ireland are ,Very slightly, more than slight favs

Odds on average
Ireland 18/19 and England evens

but more Weight of money is and will go on England.

the odds compilers (whos jobs depend on them being accurate) prob recon than England are 6/5, but the weight of money drives it down to evens

So by my thinking, factoring out the way the weight of money effects odds, and Ireland are in the odds compilers eyes, favourites, but not by much.

This is one of the closest games I've see to call, and a bounch of the ball could decide it.

Interesting Khu. All the big bookies seem to have both sides at 10/11. the books on the right of the page go well beyond my gaming understanding as I don't ever bet (well I have but the sum total of them in bookies is less than fifty in my lifetime).

but more Weight of money is and will go on England.

Is interesting in context. Do punters go with their hears or heads. Or when the chance of a reasonable profit is virtually nil, nobody bothers.

A click on ether side's name on the lhs of the page shows odds history seems to suggest no odds drift either way.

I think with it being a 6 nations game there is a lot of money put on the teams, using the heart not head. I've met loads of people in the bookies durning the 6 nations, who wouldn't normally bet, coming out with money on Ireland.

people who bet will look for value, and then you see odds fall, but for Grand national and 6 nations and some big football games, people will bet on the national team, regardless if they think its good odds or not.

Everyone knows that England will have a lot more money placed on them than Ireland, due to population size. If the compilers think Englands true odds are 6/5 to win, they will then say theres going to be a lot of money put on this and reduce it to evens before publishing it and letting people bet on it.

Just the way I see it, I like to try and work out what the odds compilers really think the chances are of something, rather than the market and how before publishing the odds they would have considered the market.

Reason I like this is, you can have X many Irishmen/Englishmen telling you thier team is going to win, you have pundits and ex players, making predictions, but none of them are that truely well informed. The bookies team of odds compliers, pour through data, several people concentraing on different aspects, taking all sorts of things into account, plus they have no bias what so ever, its there jobs to get it right. These are the ones that make the most accurate informed predictions, and better in big ones if you can factor out how they think weight of money will effect things. (they won't wait for lots on money to come on before this pushes odds down, they know in a big game like this they are going to get lots of money on, and will have this in the prices before any money changes hands)

By my thinking they recon that Ireland just edge it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
How do Ireland play this? try the arm wrestle again which they lost so badly last year? Utilise Sextons kicking game against Farrell, 36, Goode and Brown? Run it up the middle into the brick wall that is Barrit?
Try the fancy stuff and leave themselves open to punishment ?

I can see this being a high scoring game

From the Irish side, the only real variable for this battle I can see is the strategy that Kidney, Sexton, Heaslip, BOD, etc collectively choose to enforce. We know what England are going to bring... and they do it very well. They don't have to change. But if Sexton, O'Brien, etc play their normal 'Leinster' game, then I fear we could be in trouble. And so I think it will be the strategic game between the No. 10s and around the gainline advantage that is all important.

I can't agree with Hood83. We all know that Ireland can't afford to give too much possession to England. But equally, if Ireland get all passionate and prideful and start trying play rugby from everywhere and make deep centre-field charges from their own half, then I can see us having real problems. Similarly, if our forwards [no matter how good our ball carriers] try and continually bash through the English gainline at the sides of the breakdown, then sooner or later we'll be in trouble. As Mr Seabiscuit correctly pointed out, looking at the condition of the Irish side towards the end of the Welsh game, I'm very worried about the effect the sheer physicality of this English team is going to have. 1) The Irish team has too many injuries, too many smaller players and too many aging legs to play that kind of stuff for 40 mins let alone 80. 2) The English are finally creating a gainline and breakdown area that smothers and crushes most all attempts at individual charging [just as they did in their heyday]. A strategy that just charges into that will lead to multiple penalties and knock-ons and multiple scrums and mauls in the Irish half - all of which will only end one way for Ireland overall [i.e. early penalties and eventually multiple tries].

So what can Ireland do? For me, they have to do a few things fairly perfectly to win:
1) In possession: get the ball wide and away from the breakdown area relatively quickly and, as much as possible, make patient straight yards at the edges of the pitch. Then our backs need to stay close [not wild ambitious passing] and be there in quick support like a team of backrow forwards and we calmly start the process again. Darcy and BOD are already past-masters of this and it is the one area that we can outplay the English backs in.
2) In possession: When the moment arrives they need to end those same attacking phases with a far higher proportion of CLEVER kicks through and behind the English last line, so as to at least keep England turning round and thereby forcing their big forwards to run up and down and sideways as much as possible. If they can do that properly, then the sheer physical bulk of the English forwards will start to play against them and will hopefully negate the effectiveness of their own charging game at the fringes of the breakdown.
3) In defence: [Firstly, as above, this can only begin with successfully making England play most of the game from inside their own half.] Secondly, the Irish forwards need to put all their efforts, not into ball carrying from their own half, but into hammering England at the breakdown and the gainline and forcing them into more kicking away of possession. [For that reason, I think it's an absolute necessity for Henry to be put in for this game.]
4) After doing all the above, Ireland can play whatever game they like - in the ENGLISH half! But they must at least begin by dominating the strategic game. Otherwise they could fall apart like last year or the Kiwi tests.

Tis all so simple written down.

Hartley said to 5live that Billy V had one 'helluva' debut in match training. On a bench already equipped with serious impact, his inclusion would give England an unbelievable amount of go forward in the last 20-25mins.

Maybe Ireland will tackle lighter, not wanting to injure any of the starting back row? (apologies for the purile nature of this post, but hey we all have to get our kicks where we can!)

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I will probably gloat a little if Ireland win. Win lose or draw I look forward to a sing song down the pub. Might even sing swing low again. Why the F is this game on Sunday.

I'm going to get my gloating in up front (...just in case we lose )!

Ireland by 8!

That's not a gloat Rodders. You'll never make it to WUM Cental like that.

This is how to pre-gloat:

ahem...


We feicin pushed your spongy pack off the park last year and this weekend will be no diffr'nt.
You just watch your front row ground into the turgid peat of the cucumber frame
You see how good your ailing so-called second row of age and innocence deal with mature graduates
You watch how your overhyped back-rowers deal with our four (including King Cole)
You marvel at what a modern inventive half back pair looks like
You deapair as your billion cap midfield deals with the talent of a proper academy system which cherry picks from a big school
You hope that your back three has enough speed in reverse to cover the onslaught
If England don't win by fifty, then it'll be because Joubert is a homing pigeon.

... and relax ...


That's how it's done.

(actually I felt better creating that guff)

What will the Irish bench look like? Any players you think can make a particular impact from there?

greytiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I will probably gloat a little if Ireland win. Win lose or draw I look forward to a sing song down the pub. Might even sing swing low again. Why the F is this game on Sunday.

I'm going to get my gloating in up front (...just in case we lose )!

Ireland by 8!

That's not a gloat Rodders. You'll never make it to WUM Cental like that.

This is how to pre-gloat:

ahem...


We feicin pushed your spongy pack off the park last year and this weekend will be no diffr'nt.
You just watch your front row ground into the turgid peat of the cucumber frame
You see how good your ailing so-called second row of age and innocence deal with mature graduates
You watch how your overhyped back-rowers deal with our four (including King Cole)
You marvel at what a modern inventive half back pair looks like
You insert your billion cap midfield deal with the talent of a proper academy system which cherry picks from a big school
You hope that your back three has enough speed in reverse to cover the onslaught
If England don't win by fifty, then it'll be because Joubert is a homing pigeon.

... and relax


That's how it's done.

(actually I felt better creating that guff)

Makes my post seem grown up

I think the English will be too worried about their Tony and Guy haircuts to actually take Ireland on in this one.

Never wrestle with a pig England (Healy, Best and Ross) because the pigs will love it.

beshocked wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
England were impressive v Scotland and I actually dont think they even hit fourth gear. Shane Horgan reckons that we will have to completely avoid an arm wrestle and take England on out wide. I have to admit I agree with this thinking but we will still have to be ultra physical.

Some Ireland fans will tell you that we have a strong backrow and will match England at the breakdown, however, on the evidence of the last few matches I think England are better than us here.

Shane Horgan is spot on. We'll be mushed if we don't get quick ball and move this England side around, peg them back in their own half and attack the lineout. Get the crowd going.

We need to play like we did against Wales for 45 min but do it for 80. Get BOD, leading the back 3 up in the blitz to put pressure on Tuilagi and the back 3.

The choke tackle is a risky policy against the big English backrow - Haskell, Robshaw etc. are immensely strong and will be able to get the ball on the deck more often than not so that tactic needs to be used wisely and sparingly....try and slow England ball up but not overcommit to the breakdown or give Farrell easy shots at goal.

We need a huge performance on Sunday. Bodies on the line and cool heads all round.

Have to say I slightly disagree with this Rodders. This isn't a huge, bruising English pack with carriers all over the place. It's strength is probably work-rate and, lately (can;t believe I'm saying this) accuracy. With SOB and Healy you have two big carriers. Haskell could be ours but he's too upright. Outside of that, there aren't many big carriers with Corbs and Morgan out injured. It's not a pack that bullies teams, if it wins it's because it is more mobile if anything.

I actually think Ireland SHOULD go through the central channels more. England's defence is ok but it doesn't stop people on the gain-line. Normally T Youngs goes low, the guy makes a yard or two over the gainline, the rest of the pack then massively commits to the counter ruck and slows ball down. Scotland did so poorly because they played against type and committed no-one to the rucks. If Ireland smash it with numbers and keep carrying tight, they'll make ground. It's just whether they've got the persistence and accuracy then, which I think they have.

On the choke tackle. Teams expect it, but it can still work. If someone like Wood carries alone, they'll get stood up. The question then is, how quickly can the heavy artillery (i hate military metaphors but I'm lacking imagination) like Morgan or Haskell can get to them and get them on the ground. I could see Haskell getting there a fraction too late each time and some of England's more willowy forwards getting pinged for it. The advantage we might have is that both Parling and Launchbury, although fairly light, both carry quite low-slung with good body positions.

Potentially though you could have both Vunipola bros on the bench and Tuilagi too. That's quite a bit of bulk that could be unleashed in the last 20 minutes.

That's true if B Vunipola and Manu come on. The former could be very very handy in the last 20 mins of a match, but equally he still gives away a fair few pens. I'd love to see him get game time in the 6Ns. I think he should be Morgan's main challenger with Haskell as Wood's.

beshocked wrote:What will the Irish bench look like? Any players you think can make a particular impact from there?

I think Luke Fitzgerald (snigger) and Andrew Trimble are in contention for the bench, both I rate highly although AT seems to divide opinion of the Irish fans. Both classy players who could have an impact. + is Paddy Jackson gonna get a place on the bench instead of O'Gara? Would seem a sensible move to have someone who can change the game rather than having a player 'to close the game out'

Sugarlump wrote:

beshocked wrote:What will the Irish bench look like? Any players you think can make a particular impact from there?

I think Luke Fitzgerald (snigger) and Andrew Trimble are in contention for the bench, both I rate highly although AT seems to divide opinion of the Irish fans. Both classy players who could have an impact. + is Paddy Jackson gonna get a place on the bench instead of O'Gara? Would seem a sensible move to have someone who can change the game rather than having a player 'to close the game out'

Id rather have AT and Earls on the bench than Fitz.

Id also prefer Madigan or Jackson to ROG.

Welsh leisure centre, operated by the Chinese.

greytiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I will probably gloat a little if Ireland win. Win lose or draw I look forward to a sing song down the pub. Might even sing swing low again. Why the F is this game on Sunday.

I'm going to get my gloating in up front (...just in case we lose )!

Ireland by 8!

That's not a gloat Rodders. You'll never make it to WUM Cental like that.

This is how to pre-gloat:

ahem...


We feicin pushed your spongy pack off the park last year and this weekend will be no diffr'nt.
You just watch your front row ground into the turgid peat of the cucumber frame
You see how good your ailing so-called second row of age and innocence deal with mature graduates
You watch how your overhyped back-rowers deal with our four (including King Cole)
You marvel at what a modern inventive half back pair looks like
You deapair as your billion cap midfield deals with the talent of a proper academy system which cherry picks from a big school
You hope that your back three has enough speed in reverse to cover the onslaught
If England don't win by fifty, then it'll be because Joubert is a homing pigeon.

... and relax ...


That's how it's done.

(actually I felt better creating that guff)

Of particular interest to me will be the hooker head-to-head (if that can be imagined in this rugby context Best is being sponsored by some as a Lions skipper. Mobility and effectiveness will be important in Australia.

Mind you I'm from Leicester and I used to be a hooker. And was in in a similar frame of mind 30 years ago.

Toni and guy ? have you seen Tuilagi, Cole, T Youngs, vunipola x2, Lawes, Flood, Waldrom and Wilson hardly pretty boys and if toni and guy started down the Marler route they would be out of buisiness pretty quickly

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-1351616/Head-turner-Joe-Marler-style-cut-England.html#axzz2K2Taktjn

...the sarries boys and care have an aptitude for mincy ways but then BOD, Kearney and fitzy love the mirrior more than most as well.

Im not sure about wrestling with pigs but Healey will certainly be wrestling with a shaved gorilla, best will be up against a small rhino and the pig Ross with be propping against a man who shaves the word sausage into his head.......I smell roast pork for sunday dinner.

sirtidychris wrote:

Im not sure about wrestling with pigs but Healey will certainly be wrestling with a shaved gorilla, best will be up against a small rhino and the pig Ross with be propping against a man who shaves the word sausage into his head.......I smell roast pork for sunday dinner.

Chris, no, I think its Horseburger at Lansdowne.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
How do Ireland play this? try the arm wrestle again which they lost so badly last year? Utilise Sextons kicking game against Farrell, 36, Goode and Brown? Run it up the middle into the brick wall that is Barrit?
Try the fancy stuff and leave themselves open to punishment ?

I can see this being a high scoring game

From the Irish side, the only real variable for this battle I can see is the strategy that Kidney, Sexton, Heaslip, BOD, etc collectively choose to enforce. We know what England are going to bring... and they do it very well. They don't have to change. But if Sexton, O'Brien, etc play their normal 'Leinster' game, then I fear we could be in trouble. And so I think it will be the strategic game between the No. 10s and around the gainline advantage that is all important.

I can't agree with Hood83. We all know that Ireland can't afford to give too much possession to England. But equally, if Ireland get all passionate and prideful and start trying play rugby from everywhere and make deep centre-field charges from their own half, then I can see us having real problems. Similarly, if our forwards [no matter how good our ball carriers] try and continually bash through the English gainline at the sides of the breakdown, then sooner or later we'll be in trouble. As Mr Seabiscuit correctly pointed out, looking at the condition of the Irish side towards the end of the Welsh game, I'm very worried about the effect the sheer physicality of this English team is going to have. 1) The Irish team has too many injuries, too many smaller players and too many aging legs to play that kind of stuff for 40 mins let alone 80. 2) The English are finally creating a gainline and breakdown area that smothers and crushes most all attempts at individual charging [just as they did in their heyday]. A strategy that just charges into that will lead to multiple penalties and knock-ons and multiple scrums and mauls in the Irish half - all of which will only end one way for Ireland overall [i.e. early penalties and eventually multiple tries].

So what can Ireland do? For me, they have to do a few things fairly perfectly to win:
1) In possession: get the ball wide and away from the breakdown area relatively quickly and, as much as possible, make patient straight yards at the edges of the pitch. Then our backs need to stay close [not wild ambitious passing] and be there in quick support like a team of backrow forwards and we calmly start the process again. Darcy and BOD are already past-masters of this and it is the one area that we can outplay the English backs in.
2) In possession: When the moment arrives they need to end those same attacking phases with a far higher proportion of CLEVER kicks through and behind the English last line, so as to at least keep England turning round and thereby forcing their big forwards to run up and down and sideways as much as possible. If they can do that properly, then the sheer physical bulk of the English forwards will start to play against them and will hopefully negate the effectiveness of their own charging game at the fringes of the breakdown.
3) In defence: [Firstly, as above, this can only begin with successfully making England play most of the game from inside their own half.] Secondly, the Irish forwards need to put all their efforts, not into ball carrying from their own half, but into hammering England at the breakdown and the gainline and forcing them into more kicking away of possession. [For that reason, I think it's an absolute necessity for Henry to be put in for this game.]
4) After doing all the above, Ireland can play whatever game they like - in the ENGLISH half! But they must at least begin by dominating the strategic game. Otherwise they could fall apart like last year or the Kiwi tests.

Tis all so simple written down.

We'll have a sportsmens' bet then Nos I'm not sure i convinced myself entirely either. The Leinster approach of fast rucking and men hitting the line at pace in waves looks a good approach. I just think if that goes too wide too quickly you'll get nowt from us. You'll need to clear out quickly and that will mean a decent number of people at the breakdown. When you've beaten us (a lot) recently, it's because your forwards have been far more physical and aggressive. This is how you'll win. Passionate and prideful as you put it is the one thing we have consistently not been able to live with from you guys. Basically, my point is, you won't get the ball away wide if you don't hit the breakdowns in numbers and fast.

Will Ireland have to resort to desparate 15 man lineouts in order to get past the impregnable England defensive line?

sirtidychris wrote:

Im not sure about wrestling with pigs but Healey will certainly be wrestling with a shaved gorilla, best will be up against a small rhino and the pig Ross with be propping against a man who shaves the word sausage into his head.......I smell roast pork for sunday dinner.

Mako Vunipola and Dylan Hartley don't mind the physical stuff either. I think Tom Youngs meteoric rise has helped DH, he's looking fit and hungry at the moment. Not taking anything away from Youngs who's lesser stature seems to be an advantage in the contact and breakdown areas, when Hartley comes on the pitch he looks enormous!

gboycottnut wrote:Will Ireland have to resort to desparate 15 man lineouts in order to get past the impregnable England defensive line?

No chance....you'd never get the Munster and Leinster lads to stand in the same lineout....

Sugarlump wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:

Im not sure about wrestling with pigs but Healey will certainly be wrestling with a shaved gorilla, best will be up against a small rhino and the pig Ross with be propping against a man who shaves the word sausage into his head.......I smell roast pork for sunday dinner.

Mako Vunipola and Dylan Hartley don't mind the physical stuff either. I think Tom Youngs meteoric rise has helped DH, he's looking fit and hungry at the moment. Not taking anything away from Youngs who's lesser stature seems to be an advantage in the contact and breakdown areas, when Hartley comes on the pitch he looks enormous!

Hope Hartley doesn't get an urge for Irish munchies again.

Ross vs Marler will be an interesting battle. Rossy was the starting Quins TH when Marler was in the academy, so they'll have come up against each other before and know a few of each other's tricks...

That probably helps Marler more than it does Ross, as Joe's scrummaging has improved since he was a teenager.

DOD wrote:

profitius wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If Earls plays and Tuilagi comes back into the England side I'll be phoning the NSPCC. God love ickle Keith, he'll be crying into his coco pops at the thought of it. It's sad that someone so talented has actually gone backwards the more he plays at centre. Tuilagi looks better each time he plays the more he learns to vary his game and that he isn't a winger- there is actually another player outside him. We are like lambs to the slaughter, especially if Ross and Healy come off. Fitzpatrick did ok beside Healy but when Kilcoyne came on Wales made mincemeat of them. In fact make that horsemeat. They both had a mare and yet Deccie in his wisdom has said neigh to the best scrummaging LH we have. Also, I think we should think about bringing in Fitzgerald for Gilroy. Gilroy's kicking game isn't great and the thought of Farrell kicking the ball down his throat all afternoon would be enough to keep young Craig up all night with the trots. Someone really needs to rein Deccie's bad selections in. I see England beating us convincingly but, hay if we get the win I'll take it.

Kilcoynes first scrum was in the 75th min when BOD sliced his clearance. He was shoving the Welsh tighthead (with 21st Olly Kohn behind him) while the scrum collapsed on the Irish tighthead/Welsh loosehead side. His second and final scrum was in the 80th minute. He was going forward but the scrum turned due to pressure on the Irish tighhead side. Kilcoyne done well as he has been doing all season in the scrums.

Heres the match. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSSEovES4DY

You dont want too much in the way of evidence against the "perception" of a player. Kilcoyne has clearly been rubbish all year and is just another of DKs Munster preferences. You wouldnt want to get into the arguement that Court looks very ordinary when his buddy Afoa isnt around but then we cant pick Afoa (or Pienaar or Muller etc).

For God's sake man, I was trying to make horse puns. I have very little problem with Kilcoyne on the bench. Sure he isn't as good a scrummager as Court- sorry DOD your comment is absolute nonsense. Sure your television would explode if you had to watch us nordies lording it over the rest of you as Ireland's premier province. It's sad for you, I know. We can hug it out knowing that when we lose Pienaar we are fooked. Court on form should be on the bench. Sure even those naughty English broadsheets were talking about him being an outside bet for the Lions tour. Naturally hyperbole, but still, the form LH in the northern hemisphere. Sad news for the 10 man rugby dynasty in Munster but the Empire is over. Maybe Kidney will get all Darth Vader on us before the end of the championship and turn back to the light and pick players who deserve it. But we we keep picking older players like Court how will younger players like Kilcoyne get experience? Perfectly reasonable selection looking to the future. Of course how ROG warming his rump on the bench can be explained is anyone's guess. I'm more concerned by Fitzpatrick. He looked exhausted running onto the pitch from the bench. Its a sad state of affairs

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
How do Ireland play this? try the arm wrestle again which they lost so badly last year? Utilise Sextons kicking game against Farrell, 36, Goode and Brown? Run it up the middle into the brick wall that is Barrit?
Try the fancy stuff and leave themselves open to punishment ?

I can see this being a high scoring game

From the Irish side, the only real variable for this battle I can see is the strategy that Kidney, Sexton, Heaslip, BOD, etc collectively choose to enforce. We know what England are going to bring... and they do it very well. They don't have to change. But if Sexton, O'Brien, etc play their normal 'Leinster' game, then I fear we could be in trouble. And so I think it will be the strategic game between the No. 10s and around the gainline advantage that is all important.

I can't agree with Hood83. We all know that Ireland can't afford to give too much possession to England. But equally, if Ireland get all passionate and prideful and start trying play rugby from everywhere and make deep centre-field charges from their own half, then I can see us having real problems. Similarly, if our forwards [no matter how good our ball carriers] try and continually bash through the English gainline at the sides of the breakdown, then sooner or later we'll be in trouble. As Mr Seabiscuit correctly pointed out, looking at the condition of the Irish side towards the end of the Welsh game, I'm very worried about the effect the sheer physicality of this English team is going to have. 1) The Irish team has too many injuries, too many smaller players and too many aging legs to play that kind of stuff for 40 mins let alone 80. 2) The English are finally creating a gainline and breakdown area that smothers and crushes most all attempts at individual charging [just as they did in their heyday]. A strategy that just charges into that will lead to multiple penalties and knock-ons and multiple scrums and mauls in the Irish half - all of which will only end one way for Ireland overall [i.e. early penalties and eventually multiple tries].

So what can Ireland do? For me, they have to do a few things fairly perfectly to win:
1) In possession: get the ball wide and away from the breakdown area relatively quickly and, as much as possible, make patient straight yards at the edges of the pitch. Then our backs need to stay close [not wild ambitious passing] and be there in quick support like a team of backrow forwards and we calmly start the process again. Darcy and BOD are already past-masters of this and it is the one area that we can outplay the English backs in.
2) In possession: When the moment arrives they need to end those same attacking phases with a far higher proportion of CLEVER kicks through and behind the English last line, so as to at least keep England turning round and thereby forcing their big forwards to run up and down and sideways as much as possible. If they can do that properly, then the sheer physical bulk of the English forwards will start to play against them and will hopefully negate the effectiveness of their own charging game at the fringes of the breakdown.
3) In defence: [Firstly, as above, this can only begin with successfully making England play most of the game from inside their own half.] Secondly, the Irish forwards need to put all their efforts, not into ball carrying from their own half, but into hammering England at the breakdown and the gainline and forcing them into more kicking away of possession. [For that reason, I think it's an absolute necessity for Henry to be put in for this game.]
4) After doing all the above, Ireland can play whatever game they like - in the ENGLISH half! But they must at least begin by dominating the strategic game. Otherwise they could fall apart like last year or the Kiwi tests.

Tis all so simple written down.

This is my concern with your thinking. Everyone seems to rush to a default that England has a huge pack. We don't, certainly not compared to others we've put out. Parling, T Youngs, Cole, Marler, Launchbury, Wood and even Robshaw - none of these are bruisers or 'enforcers'. None are massive carriers. Our front five is technical and mobile, and only Haskell and Morgan in our back-row are physically dominating. The rest are swarmers more than battering rams, similar to Ireland i'd say.

I did worry seeing Parling getting bumped off (thats not a euphemism) a couple of times by Beattie but he does other things so well. We're trading weight for mobility. Scotlands pack was bigger and more experienced but couldn't cope with Englands (I like Hoods metaphor) swarming numbers at the breakdown

If ENG keep with Youngs at hooker I would say IRE have the better front row come scrum time. I'd bring back Hartley for some much needed match experience, leadership and aggression.

IRE locks looked like they went through a load of work in the tight. Ryan was very impressive. ENG locks seem to be coming along nicely... Its a fair battle.

Both teams looks impressive and have good strength in most areas. Perhaps ENG have the edge in the lineout but thats about it.

IRE are certainly not underdogs... as much as they want to be. They won't get easy points however like they did against Wales so will have to up their retention game if they want to compete.

This game has so many battles and the players know, win the game, beat your opposite number and you have 1 foot on the lions plane already.

Cole vs Healy
Best. vs. Youngs/Hartley
O'Brien vs. Haskell
Heaslip vs. Robshaw
Murray vs. Youngs
Farrell vs. Sexton
Tuilagi vs. BOD
Zebo vs. Ashton

The implications are massive.

As an Irish fan nothing concerns me about the English tight five apart from the scrum if Mike 'fuelled by pies' Ross goes off injured. Parling and Launchbury seem hugely overrated by the press and English fans- not really surprising considering the succession of locks paraded since 2003. They are perfectly good second rows, but far from the second coming. Ireland could get the upper hand there in that battle. Its the back row I fear. Haskell- easy to loath, but still a good player. Wood will be slightly undermined if he is moved to 8 but he is terrific at the breakdown. I know it will upset you sensitive lads roaring Rule Britannia but he is no Richard Hill, but he is still bloody good. I wouldn't swap him for Ferris or O'Brien but he is a different sort of 6 after all. Robshaw, from captain imbecile to Lions captain if you believe these boards and the press. He's no Tipuric thats for sure, and I'm not sure about his leadership qualities but he is better on the deck than SOB and POM. Also Ireland possess possibly the form 7 in the Heinekin cup this season in Chris Henry but obviously his accent is too close to your lot to be considered for Ireland. And my friend kalls me a toube for nat smokin? Aye, dead on. I fear Wood and Robshaw will dominate SOB and POM and then its horse burgers all round for us. Hold the onions. I have some class.

If Sexton kicks as aimlessly and dreadfully to England as he did in the second half against Wales then its curtains. If Farrell can desist from looking like he just had a rectal exam from John Inverdale and kicks at ickle Craig Gilroy all day long you will get plenty of ball. If Earls plays centre then his turnstile defence will mean Tuilgai going off the pitch to change underpants every ten minutes- you know, because he'll be really enjoying himself out there.

England comfortable winners for me this week. We can't rely on the sheer incompetent selection of Rob Howley to help us on the way.

Sugarlump wrote:I did worry seeing Parling getting bumped off (thats not a euphemism) a couple of times by Beattie but he does other things so well. We're trading weight for mobility. Scotlands pack was bigger and more experienced but couldn't cope with Englands (I like Hoods metaphor) swarming numbers at the breakdown

I was worried about that too, think it only happened once though?

In his post-match interview, he stated that rather than basking in the glory of the win, himself and a lot of the other players are focusing on what they didn't so- in his case, getting bumped off.

Good to know his head's in the right place and he is already targetting improvements to his game. That's all we ask of him as a player.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: Also Ireland possess possibly the form 7 in the Heinekin cup this season in Chris Henry but obviously his accent is too close to your lot to be considered for Ireland. And my friend kalls me a toube for nat smokin? Aye, dead on. I fear Wood and Robshaw will dominate SOB and POM and then its horse burgers all round for us. Hold the onions. I have some class.

Hood83 wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
How do Ireland play this? try the arm wrestle again which they lost so badly last year? Utilise Sextons kicking game against Farrell, 36, Goode and Brown? Run it up the middle into the brick wall that is Barrit?
Try the fancy stuff and leave themselves open to punishment ?

I can see this being a high scoring game

From the Irish side, the only real variable for this battle I can see is the strategy that Kidney, Sexton, Heaslip, BOD, etc collectively choose to enforce. We know what England are going to bring... and they do it very well. They don't have to change. But if Sexton, O'Brien, etc play their normal 'Leinster' game, then I fear we could be in trouble. And so I think it will be the strategic game between the No. 10s and around the gainline advantage that is all important.

I can't agree with Hood83. We all know that Ireland can't afford to give too much possession to England. But equally, if Ireland get all passionate and prideful and start trying play rugby from everywhere and make deep centre-field charges from their own half, then I can see us having real problems. Similarly, if our forwards [no matter how good our ball carriers] try and continually bash through the English gainline at the sides of the breakdown, then sooner or later we'll be in trouble. As Mr Seabiscuit correctly pointed out, looking at the condition of the Irish side towards the end of the Welsh game, I'm very worried about the effect the sheer physicality of this English team is going to have. 1) The Irish team has too many injuries, too many smaller players and too many aging legs to play that kind of stuff for 40 mins let alone 80. 2) The English are finally creating a gainline and breakdown area that smothers and crushes most all attempts at individual charging [just as they did in their heyday]. A strategy that just charges into that will lead to multiple penalties and knock-ons and multiple scrums and mauls in the Irish half - all of which will only end one way for Ireland overall [i.e. early penalties and eventually multiple tries].

So what can Ireland do? For me, they have to do a few things fairly perfectly to win:
1) In possession: get the ball wide and away from the breakdown area relatively quickly and, as much as possible, make patient straight yards at the edges of the pitch. Then our backs need to stay close [not wild ambitious passing] and be there in quick support like a team of backrow forwards and we calmly start the process again. Darcy and BOD are already past-masters of this and it is the one area that we can outplay the English backs in.
2) In possession: When the moment arrives they need to end those same attacking phases with a far higher proportion of CLEVER kicks through and behind the English last line, so as to at least keep England turning round and thereby forcing their big forwards to run up and down and sideways as much as possible. If they can do that properly, then the sheer physical bulk of the English forwards will start to play against them and will hopefully negate the effectiveness of their own charging game at the fringes of the breakdown.
3) In defence: [Firstly, as above, this can only begin with successfully making England play most of the game from inside their own half.] Secondly, the Irish forwards need to put all their efforts, not into ball carrying from their own half, but into hammering England at the breakdown and the gainline and forcing them into more kicking away of possession. [For that reason, I think it's an absolute necessity for Henry to be put in for this game.]
4) After doing all the above, Ireland can play whatever game they like - in the ENGLISH half! But they must at least begin by dominating the strategic game. Otherwise they could fall apart like last year or the Kiwi tests.

Tis all so simple written down.

This is my concern with your thinking. Everyone seems to rush to a default that England has a huge pack. We don't, certainly not compared to others we've put out. Parling, T Youngs, Cole, Marler, Launchbury, Wood and even Robshaw - none of these are bruisers or 'enforcers'. None are massive carriers. Our front five is technical and mobile, and only Haskell and Morgan in our back-row are physically dominating. The rest are swarmers more than battering rams, similar to Ireland i'd say.

Agreed. I dont know what the respective sizes/weights are, but I'd bet they are pretty even, maybe with the exception of O'Brien being big than Wood? The reason the English pack did well against Scotland was that everyone was hitting the rucks and tackles hard to secure posession. It seemed to me as if the Ireland first half performance stemmed from a similar break down dominance, so it will be interesting to see who come out on top there.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Sugarlump wrote:I did worry seeing Parling getting bumped off (thats not a euphemism) a couple of times by Beattie but he does other things so well. We're trading weight for mobility. Scotlands pack was bigger and more experienced but couldn't cope with Englands (I like Hoods metaphor) swarming numbers at the breakdown

I was worried about that too, think it only happened once though?

In his post-match interview, he stated that rather than basking in the glory of the win, himself and a lot of the other players are focusing on what they didn't so- in his case, getting bumped off.

Good to know his head's in the right place and he is already targetting improvements to his game. That's all we ask of him as a player.

I think it happened twice both in the first half. First when JB went off on his Gallic style run about which had Chris Patterson holding the mic with his nonw@nking hand for a moment and later when Scotland were driving mid-field in our 22.

I dont see why everyone is saying Ireland must do this perfectly and Ireland must do that perfectly to win. What about England?

Ireland are at home with a pack and back line that are in form. Our tight 5 is noticeably stronger and with SOB in imperious form I think we'll win the backrow battle. With an edge in the pack it will allow Sexton to get the upper hand and unleash our superior back three.

As long as Ross is fit I think we'll take this one more comfortably than people think.

I would especially like to see bigger games from Heaslip and Kearney.

I think its quite interesting how ENG have developed.... with no openside the whole pack has taken a more abrasive collective responsibility to rucking and they have become fearsome on the floor. Dan Cole frequently has a kodak moment of winning a penalty at ruck time whilst he yanks the ball out of some guys arms... same with Healy mind.

A we're in it all together mentality... first time I really saw it was against NZ where they had to to compete against McCaw.

If it can work against the best why do the Lions need a specialist???

fa0019 wrote:I think its quite interesting how ENG have developed.... with no openside the whole pack has taken a more abrasive collective responsibility to rucking and they have become fearsome on the floor. Dan Cole frequently has a kodak moment of winning a penalty at ruck time whilst he yanks the ball out of some guys arms... same with Healy mind.

A we're in it all together mentality... first time I really saw it was against NZ where they had to to compete against McCaw.

If it can work against the best why do the Lions need a specialist???

England dont use a specialist because they dont have one. Would you not prefer to have a really good 6,7 and 8 rather than 3 hybrids?

gleesonisgod wrote:I dont see why everyone is saying Ireland must do this perfectly and Ireland must do that perfectly to win. What about England?

Ireland are at home with a pack and back line that are in form. Our tight 5 is noticeably stronger and with SOB in imperious form I think we'll win the backrow battle. With an edge in the pack it will allow Sexton to get the upper hand and unleash our superior back three.

As long as Ross is fit I think we'll take this one more comfortably than people think.

I would especially like to see bigger games from Heaslip and Kearney.

Are they noticeably stronger though? And by noticeably stronger I'm guessing you means loads better that there counterparts?

gleesonisgod wrote:I dont see why everyone is saying Ireland must do this perfectly and Ireland must do that perfectly to win. What about England?

Ireland are at home with a pack and back line that are in form. Our tight 5 is noticeably stronger and with SOB in imperious form I think we'll win the backrow battle. With an edge in the pack it will allow Sexton to get the upper hand and unleash our superior back three.

As long as Ross is fit I think we'll take this one more comfortably than people think.

I would especially like to see bigger games from Heaslip and Kearney.

Don't see your tight five as superior to ours. Best and Healy are worldclass no doubt Ross isn't the best TH about and Healy with his tremendous workrate does pick up injuries a fair bit. The second row battle interesting because of the different styles of players, your pack doesn't have the same bite without a fit inform POC.

Gleesonisgod, Ireland's tight 5 is noticeably stronger than what and when? Last year's Ireland team? Probably so. This year's England team? Very little in it, either in the scrum or in the line-out, and much depends on Ross for the former holding true.

The back rows are remarkably similar in style, with a fair bit of bish bosh on either side and no true scavenger to see anywhere. I see no advantage to either team on paper, and a case of the "the better eight on the day will hold sway".

Ireland undoubtedly has the better back three, but I wouldn't want to bet that they'll have as much chance to prove it as they did last week. That's what makes this game so fascinating and why I believe that your prediction of a comfortable verdict is off the mark.

gleesonisgod wrote:I dont see why everyone is saying Ireland must do this perfectly and Ireland must do that perfectly to win. What about England?

Ireland are at home with a pack and back line that are in form. Our tight 5 is noticeably stronger and with SOB in imperious form I think we'll win the backrow battle. With an edge in the pack it will allow Sexton to get the upper hand and unleash our superior back three.

As long as Ross is fit I think we'll take this one more comfortably than people think.

I would especially like to see bigger games from Heaslip and Kearney.

bejesus der gleeso tis too early to be on da sauce!

GunsGerms

It depends. I'd rather have 3 guys like Richard Hill, Schalk Burger & Juan Smith who can play in either position and has a variety of skills then 3 guys who can do some things but aren't skilled in all.

South Africa haven't had a proper openside (bar the elvs blip of Brussow in 09) since 2003 when Krige retired... yet in that time they've done it all, won a world cup and beaten McCaw, Pocock, Smith, Waugh etc regularly. Even Krige wasn't a complete openside.

They have always had multi-skilled backrow forwards.... the one thing I would add is that they do have a far greater strength in depth compared to other nations.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:As an Irish fan nothing concerns me about the English tight five apart from the scrum if Mike 'fuelled by pies' Ross goes off injured. Parling and Launchbury seem hugely overrated by the press and English fans- not really surprising considering the succession of locks paraded since 2003. They are perfectly good second rows, but far from the second coming. Ireland could get the upper hand there in that battle. Its the back row I fear. Haskell- easy to loath, but still a good player. Wood will be slightly undermined if he is moved to 8 but he is terrific at the breakdown. I know it will upset you sensitive lads roaring Rule Britannia but he is no Richard Hill, but he is still bloody good. I wouldn't swap him for Ferris or O'Brien but he is a different sort of 6 after all. Robshaw, from captain imbecile to Lions captain if you believe these boards and the press. He's no Tipuric thats for sure, and I'm not sure about his leadership qualities but he is better on the deck than SOB and POM. Also Ireland possess possibly the form 7 in the Heinekin cup this season in Chris Henry but obviously his accent is too close to your lot to be considered for Ireland. And my friend kalls me a toube for nat smokin? Aye, dead on. I fear Wood and Robshaw will dominate SOB and POM and then its horse burgers all round for us. Hold the onions. I have some class.

If Sexton kicks as aimlessly and dreadfully to England as he did in the second half against Wales then its curtains. If Farrell can desist from looking like he just had a rectal exam from John Inverdale and kicks at ickle Craig Gilroy all day long you will get plenty of ball. If Earls plays centre then his turnstile defence will mean Tuilgai going off the pitch to change underpants every ten minutes- you know, because he'll be really enjoying himself out there.

England comfortable winners for me this week. We can't rely on the sheer incompetent selection of Rob Howley to help us on the way.

"Robshaw, from captain imbecile to Lions captain if you believe these boards and the press. He's no Tipuric thats for sure,"

Absolute gem of a quote. You are implying Robshaw is overhyped yet imply Tipuric isn't?

Parling and Launchbury - play well for England in their first few caps so are labelled as overhyped by jealous opposition fans.

Not sure what Farrell pulling a face has to do with anything unless of course it frightens the Irish players.

Agree about Earls though. In the 2011 warm up match Tuilagi ran him over.

SOB is never gonna be a classic openside but is too good to leave out. Robshaw seems to have had his doubters of his international credentials and his best position from the start yet he delivers and seems to be getting better. I wonder if he'll ever be discussed as a great openside because of his achievements rather than discredited because someone said 'you look like a six not a seven'?

In this day and age we want our forwards to do what a back can do and our backs to ruck like their lives depended on it. There are still individual technical skills attributable to certain positions but this England team under Lancaster has a 'Jack of all trades' feel about it, the only down side being there seems to be no place for an out and out speedster

England will beast the Irish I am afraid and arrive at the Millenium with the GS at their mercy. I just hope we have played ourselves into something half resembling form and England turn up overconfident.

This a season when the old saying "as long as we beat the English" is actually for the first time in a while the height of our ambition. If we can have another Wembly 99 and leave the ground to a chorus of "we was robbed" it won't be so bad. That was a cracking day out

dragonbreath wrote:England will beast the Irish I am afraid and arrive at the Millenium with the GS at their mercy. I just hope we have played ourselves into something half resembling form and England turn up overconfident.

This a season when the old saying "as long as we beat the English" is actually for the first time in a while the height of our ambition. If we can have another Wembly 99 and leave the ground to a chorus of "we was robbed" it won't be so bad. That was a cracking day out

That was a bad day that I had mostly forgotten about through pharmacuetical misadventure. Thanks for reminding me!