Wales changes for Italy

First topic message reminder :

Are Wales a 2nd half team or are the replacements better players?

I would pick

15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. Jon Davies
12. James Hook (Roberts isn't doing much and he missed tackles)
11. George North
10. Dan Biggar
9. Mike Phillips

8. Toby Faletau
7. Justin Tipuric
6. Ryan Jones
5. Ian Evans
4. Alun-wyn Jones (back from injury)
3. Adam Jones
2. Richard Hibbard
1. Paul James (no brainer)

16. Gethin Jenkins
17. Ken Owens
18. Craig Mitchell
19. Sam Warburton
20. Lloyd Williams
21. Jamie Roberts
22. Lee Byrne

Maes,

Its not so much Warburtons fitness more his form that has been off.

It would be bad management to recall Warburton. Tipuric just played his part in a first Welsh win in Paris since 2005 and you want to drop him?

If Tipuric and Ryan don't start it will be a ridiculous decision

Tipuric had a fantastic first half, he wasn't quite as present in the second - it would be useful to bring a fit Warburton on after 60 minutes.

Ryan is a real leader, and a probably a better captain that Warburton (warbs has always led through his performances, since they started going downhill, so has Wales morale)

606,

Dont forget we were in same place with Jones a few seasons back s we are now with Warburton, he himself was getting picked purely because he was captain.

That said Jones now has to play though I still believe Howler will find a place for Warburton but I hope I am wrong.

Agreed, a welsh win in Paris shouldnt be overlooked. Especially in Tips first game since the public clamour for him to start has now happened.

Though I'd argue Ryan Jones played a bigger part than Tips did, Tips deserves to keep his place. He is everywhere defensively and his carrying is very good, even though hes not the biggest his footwork allows him to get over the gainline and get the ball back quickly as hes presented a target for his forwards to hit.

Bringing Warbs & AWJ off the bench after 60 odd minutes isnt a bad luxury to have...

It would be better for Warburton himself if he started on the bench. Once he knows he has to earn his place, he might get back to the sort of form we know he's capable of.

Agreed, as a blues fan I havent liked the way he was shunted into the spotlight and brought back in on the Oz series. Its done nothing for his development and instead hes been trying to turn around losing sides at regional and test level aswell as refind his form and regain fitness and having the whole of wales on his back about why Howley hasnt done the sane thing and bring Tipuric in to start at 7.....

It was terrible, terrible man-management if you ask me and I genuinely blame Howleys selection for at least 3/4 defeats out of the last 8.

Hes got no business selecting a side for Wales, hes NEVER had to do that in his entire coaching career, which is all of about 4 years..... as a backs coach.

Did anyone else see Roger Lewis hugging Howley and then the players after the final whistle on Saturday?

gavstar wrote:dragonbreath, what game were you watching? as griff said earlier, when he could ,biggar tried to vary with grubbers, chips , took it on himself, our centres had some good ball today and messed up big time.

this was biggars 2nd 6 nations game out of 13 caps

and as for the other games he has started in.... 2 canada, 2 nz, 1 fiji, 1 samoa. 1 barbarians, we are going back from 2008. hes only 23 now!!

if you are a hook supporter, which i suspect, look at his stats for wales. 33 times at fh, 19 starts plus 68 caps in all, never nailed the shirt, and was moved on at club level too, so, get over it, new kid on the block,

i hope he has a great 6 nations, too much looking backwards, picking on previous reputations has done us no good

time to move on. you are expecting our 10 to do everything. shipping ball on , yes to lions centre , well why not? shouldnt our lions centre have done something with the ball? biggar had a blue line in front all game. opportunities were few, there was another team on the park !!! dont you think the team had any backs moves if the opportunity was there for the call ?

ball was slow again today from rucks, do you think biggar is a miracle worker. get real. that kick for the try was excellent and anyone who cant accept that has no real knowledge of what it takes to perform at this level.

creative you say? you create something for others ,its a team game, the amount of ball the centres ,and not so often the wings, had today and messed up was criminal.

i suspect you mean blind alley running a la hook , showboating getting isolated, turned over, miracle passes ,ohs and ahs from the crowd.....with no outcome

if you cant at least credit the kick for the try then i wonder why you support wales.

I certainly don't think Bigger is a miracle worker, far from it. The kick for the try did not involve any great insight, he got a terrible pass and had to kick, it was well judged and George got a nice bounce but lets not elevate it to having great vision. I think we will have to disagree on Bigger and no I am not as big a fan of Hooky as you seem to be of Bigger. One of the reasons our centres are being shut down is that Bigger offers no threat and everyone knows it, Hook can do basics and is playing well, and has the ability to do more. Bigger will never be any more than what you saw Saturday, in fact that is about as well as he can play and our back line is simply not moving. Its Hobsons choice but I would try Hook. Bigger is just keeping the shirt warm for someone else who I hope emereges sooner rather than later

Biggar isn't a miracle worker but I thought he had a very good game and varied it well, if Hook is as good as people say he is then he would have made the shirt his own over the years but he hasn't.

dragonbreath wrote:

gavstar wrote:dragonbreath, what game were you watching? as griff said earlier, when he could ,biggar tried to vary with grubbers, chips , took it on himself, our centres had some good ball today and messed up big time.

this was biggars 2nd 6 nations game out of 13 caps

and as for the other games he has started in.... 2 canada, 2 nz, 1 fiji, 1 samoa. 1 barbarians, we are going back from 2008. hes only 23 now!!

if you are a hook supporter, which i suspect, look at his stats for wales. 33 times at fh, 19 starts plus 68 caps in all, never nailed the shirt, and was moved on at club level too, so, get over it, new kid on the block,

i hope he has a great 6 nations, too much looking backwards, picking on previous reputations has done us no good

time to move on. you are expecting our 10 to do everything. shipping ball on , yes to lions centre , well why not? shouldnt our lions centre have done something with the ball? biggar had a blue line in front all game. opportunities were few, there was another team on the park !!! dont you think the team had any backs moves if the opportunity was there for the call ?

ball was slow again today from rucks, do you think biggar is a miracle worker. get real. that kick for the try was excellent and anyone who cant accept that has no real knowledge of what it takes to perform at this level.

creative you say? you create something for others ,its a team game, the amount of ball the centres ,and not so often the wings, had today and messed up was criminal.

i suspect you mean blind alley running a la hook , showboating getting isolated, turned over, miracle passes ,ohs and ahs from the crowd.....with no outcome

if you cant at least credit the kick for the try then i wonder why you support wales.

I certainly don't think Bigger is a miracle worker, far from it. The kick for the try did not involve any great insight, he got a terrible pass and had to kick, it was well judged and George got a nice bounce but lets not elevate it to having great vision. I think we will have to disagree on Bigger and no I am not as big a fan of Hooky as you seem to be of Bigger. One of the reasons our centres are being shut down is that Bigger offers no threat and everyone knows it, Hook can do basics and is playing well, and has the ability to do more. Bigger will never be any more than what you saw Saturday, in fact that is about as well as he can play and our back line is simply not moving. Its Hobsons choice but I would try Hook. Bigger is just keeping the shirt warm for someone else who I hope emereges sooner rather than later

Sorry, but that's rubbish.

Biggar wasn't forced to kick - he has time to pass but deliberately waited until the French defence were up flat

As for not posing a threat, when Biggar ran the ball 7 times, passes 28 times and kicked 12 times - in those 7 runs he made more ground than Roberts did in 10! He mixed up his running, passing and kicking game very well. He isn't the perfect player and did make mistakes, but he is no longer a simple kicking FH, he has a much more rounded game than a few years ago and is actually a more complete FH than Hook.

Give Biggar the same amount of games Hook or Preistland had and I am pretty sure he will be a better player than either.

A few seasons ago, Biggar was a kicking outside half and that was more or less it. He's still a kicking outside half by nature, but in fairness to him, he has much more variety to his game now. He's not a classical jinking outside half, but he does make breaks and has scored tries.

I'd be more nervous with Hook at ten than with Biggar there, even though this is his first Six Nations.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:A few seasons ago, Biggar was a kicking outside half and that was more or less it. He's still a kicking outside half by nature, but in fairness to him, he has much more variety to his game now. He's not a classical jinking outside half, but he does make breaks and has scored tries.

I'd be more nervous with Hook at ten than with Biggar there, even though this is his first Six Nations.

+1

For the people who want hook in can I ask what he would actually bring to Wales' game? I'm not knocking him, I always thought he is a talented player, but they way Wales play rugby now doesn't suit his style. A running fly half is pointless when they have no support runners with them. Biggar made a couple of breaks on sat but had no support runners so had to go to ground, hook will find the same problem. Wales' direct game plan of sending Roberts up the middle in an attempt to recycle quick ball actually suits a more conservative fly half in my opinion. We use a more controlled fly half to get us in position to use 1st phase ball of line outs. Biggar is a good kicker which we need. Do I agree with our current game plan...No but that's another issue.

I'm very disappointed with the way Biggar is being treated by the public and press. The poor boy is getting crap slow service from Mickey 3 steps, and the two centres outside him have creativity of a cluster of colour blind hedgehogs in a bag (thank you Mr B). Taking this into consideration, I think Biggar is playing well. I'd like to see Williams at 9, so Biggar gets more time on the ball, and either put Hook at inside centre to create the spaces for either JD/JR (one should be dropped) or even one of the back 3 cutting through. We need to do someone with this back line. We have one of the best back three in the championships and neither winger is getting the space to exploit and 1/2 penny isn't getting to options to join the line?

Just my two scents worth?????

we're all on a hill with a different view. scrum v yesterday on bbc, 'the way we play we dont need creation' said shanklin talking about the centres 'we thrive on set piece,thats how they want to play.they are given a job and thats to run straight. first line out of the game was to send jamie roberts up and the ball was fumbled, but thats the way wales want to play'

gareth llewelyn was asked if we need creators, he said ' not unless you change the philosophy, theres no point in putting ashley beck or james hook in if you are not going to change the way you play, theres no point in changing the players, go with the guys youve got .'

biggar is playing the way they want him to play, hook cant help himself, he cant stay on plan, thats why hes not 10, or 12. some welsh supporters may want the 10 to play differently , but he will do as hes told.

you cant have someone at 10 not following the plan that the rest of the team are following. even if you ,me , everyone else disagrees with the plan, thats how they will play.

some welsh supporters would not like the way any of the 6 nations 10's play if they were playing for wales. simple. even back to jonny wilkinson, or rog who came on yesterday, some welsh supporters want a different 10, but its not going to happen. the 10 plays as he is told, as do the rest of the team.like it or not , thats it. steven jones, lions 10, still wasnt liked by some welsh supporters.

biggar is developing his game in all areas out there at international speed, you can see in only 2 games how he has improved his running, directness. alongside his kicking, which was his strength,and he is and excellent goal kicker, top at the moment on points, which we dont see in the 6ns.

dragon ,i still cant see why there was 'no insight' as you say in biggars kick, of course there was, as holley highlighted yesterday, he kicked it bang into the space between the defenders........but you know that.

that kick came from a guy who believes in himself and had faith in his team mate, about time we all gave him a chance.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

Its not so much Warburtons fitness more his form that has been off.

His form was off per AIs for a game or two...! Otherwise he has played very well for Blues and Wales.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

Its not so much Warburtons fitness more his form that has been off.[/quote

His form was off per AIs for a game or two...! Otherwise he has played very well for Blues and Wales.

I rarely agree with the MM but I think there is a strong case now for playing Tipuric and Warbs as left & right (or Warburton at 6, or whichever).

In the absence of Lydiate, Warburton is the only backrower we have capable of knocking ball-carriers back in the tackle. Faletau and Tipuric are two of a kind - excellent 'footballing' skillful, finesse players and Ryan, for all his size and straight line speed, has never been powerful in contact so he's unlikely to suddenly discover the ability at this stage of his career. I'd put him at 8 for his experience and nuisance quality - bring Faletau off the bench when the game starts to open up.

Howley won't change tactics - and if we go in with the same gameplan and the same XV, we're making it much easier for Italy than it should be.

I wouldn't want to drop Ryan or Toby though. They were immense on Saturday.

Reckon we could sneak four backrowers on?

One of them might get over the gainline!

I think this will be the biggest call Howler has had to make in his fledging carear so far and I think the decision will either make him friends or make even his most loyal supporters question his ability to make the big calls.

If he leaves Sam on the bench then I for one will be impressed and lay off him a bit but I don't think he has the balls to do it.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think this will be the biggest call Howler has had to make in his fledging carear so far and I think the decision will either make him friends or make even his most loyal supporters question his ability to make the big calls.

If he leaves Sam on the bench then I for one will be impressed and lay off him a bit but I don't think he has the balls to do it.

I'm sorry mate but i just don't think Tipuric did enough to prove he is decisively a better option at this level.

I do think it is very hard to compare Tips and Warbs. Both a very different type of player, but I think both are very good. Tips had a good game in Paris and the previous week in Cardiff. We are lucky to have two talented lads as options, we could, as you said even play both.

But I think Tips does get the limelight a bit more with the way he plays rather than the impact he makes at this level. And I know I am not alone, many people saw the same in the Samoa match, he struggled with the physicality.

That said, what is wonderful is to have the option of one or the other or both to change the way we compete breakdown.

It is a tough call for any coach to make, but I don't think it reconciles Howley's ability or lack of on whether he plays one lad or the other...

Italy have a physical backrow, Zanni and Parisse are sublime at the moment, did you see there try??? We might need the graft and physicality of Warburton, toby and Ryan rather than the lighter Tips, Toby and Warbs/Ryan backrow for this game.

Some credit has to go to the coaches for the tenacity of the Welsh team in that gruelling pig of a match on Saturday. Those lads were well prepared to slog out a win. And it came off.

Not sure if you saw Jamie Roberts interviewed in Welsh on S4C after the match. It said a lot about what goes on behind the scenes and how much that win meant to the lads.

I don't think he has the balls to drop Warburton, if anything he will drop Jones and move Sam across which for me is wrong move.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I don't think he has the balls to drop Warburton, if anything he will drop Jones and move Sam across which for me is wrong move.

I dont think that you can judge him on what might be the right decision. Warburton could very well be the better openside to play against italy. In that case you would have to applaud Howley for making the right decision

Why any one would drop Coombs is beyond me. He's been very good so far. It's purely down to the majority of supporters haven't watched him for the Dragons as we're not the fasionable region.

15-9 Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts, North, Biggar, Phillips
1-8 James, Hibbard, Jones, AWJ, Evans, Ryan, Tipuric, Faletau
16-23 Jenkins, Owens, Mitchell, Coombes, Warburton, Lloyd Williams, Walker, Liam Williams.

youngguns6 wrote:Why any one would drop Coombs is beyond me. He's been very good so far. It's purely down to the majority of supporters haven't watched him for the Dragons as we're not the fasionable region.

I would agree. I'd love to see a fit and on form AWJ return for the next match, and all the pundits were calling for him on Scrum V, he played really well for the Ospreys on the weekend.

But Coombs has proved himself up to the task, it would be unfair to drop him. AWJ to the bench for me for the italy match.

Good to see better reinforcements returning to strengthen the squad, even better to see how the new comers have stepped up to the plate.

Coombes is now vital to the squad as the man who can play like Ryan Jones and cover 4,5,6 and 8. Whether he stats or is on the bench, he can't be dropped from the squad on his performances to date.

Glas a du wrote:Coombes is now vital to the squad as the man who can play like Ryan Jones and cover 4,5,6 and 8. Whether he stats or is on the bench, he can't be dropped from the squad on his performances to date.

Nope...!

Really played well, even made a few pundits teams of the week over the last two weekends... Strength and depth in Wales is getting better all the time.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I don't think he has the balls to drop Warburton, if anything he will drop Jones and move Sam across which for me is wrong move.

He can't drop Ryan Jones now, no matter what ridiculous selections he makes, he cannot drop Ryan....at least that's what I keep telling myself.

wales606 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I don't think he has the balls to drop Warburton, if anything he will drop Jones and move Sam across which for me is wrong move.

He can't drop Ryan Jones now, no matter what ridiculous selections he makes, he cannot drop Ryan....at least that's what I keep telling myself.

Can he drop Tipuric?

Of course he can. However his prospects of employment next year depend on him making the right selection next week, it's that stark.

Glas a du wrote:Of course he can. However his prospects of employment next year depend on him making the right selection next week, it's that stark.

So we will only know after we play italy whether the team he selects is the right one or not. If we win, Howley isn't half as bad as many say he is, if we lose, he's worse, despite if we lose it is probably because italy are a useful team that are tough to play in Rome...!

I am not convinced tips is a better option than Warburton to play against Italy but I am glad we have the luxury of both, I think Ryan Jones and Faletau are invaluable.

I'm sensing a little bit of optimism creeping back in. Welsh fans and media alike.

That's not what I'm saying. He has two choices. He can decide not to rock the boat and go with Gatland's captain, or he can make this his team by sticking with the players who have him victory in Paris. He can pick Gatland's team and win and still loll weak and subservient, or he can pick his team and win or lose he's showed he had the guts for the top job.

Glas a du wrote:That's not what I'm saying. He has two choices. He can decide not to rock the boat and go with Gatland's captain, or he can make this his team by sticking with the players who have him victory in Paris. He can pick Gatland's team and win and still loll weak and subservient, or he can pick his team and win or lose he's showed he had the guts for the top job.

If all fit I don't think he will change anyone about in the starting fifteen. Though I think Warburton and AWJ will likely replace Shingler and Reed on the bench,

Thats probably a fair call too. Though i think Warburton might be better than Tipuric against the Italians, they have one of the bet backrows around.

AWJ is a specialist second row. Much as I admire Coombes, he'll walk straight back in.

maes, you are wrong saying all the pundits on scrum v called for awj.

lyn jones did, kingsley said bench awj , howarth said keep same team, shanks said same team, gareth llewellyn said same team.

so easy to see these programmes again, not that their opinion counts, its howleys call

gavstar wrote:

so easy to see these programmes again, not that their opinion counts, its howleys call

Not so easy when you are abroad.

As far as i remembered Lyn Jones said definitely and i thought the others all agreed?

No Shanks Howarth and Llewellyn said keep same side (Shanks repeated that on BBC Wales news).

I do hope I am wrong but I still think he won't rock the boat and will bring Warburton back in.

Personally I would leave pack the same with Warburton and AWJ on the bench.

But Bedford mate I don't see what is wrong with brining Warburton back in? He is probably the better man for the job. And with a good physical blindside like jones complementing him we would likely be better off with Sam than with Justin.

AWJ must return.

Our scrum was terrible vs France and we badly need the extra bulk experience.

Coombs has been very good. I don't like people using this term "journeyman" and premiership player. He's a natural 6. I would like to see him on the bench as back row cover.

Also we didn't lose a lineout vs France!!!!!!!!!!!

Tipruic is undroppable at the moment. Warburton on bench.

55/60 mins: Ryan Jones moves to 8, Faletau for Warbs.

Maes, the key thing to bear in mind when comparing the two is that Tipuric is in cracking form and Warburton isn't. That has to be a consideration - or it certainly should be. It's no use saying that Warburton at his best is the man for the job when as the moment he's not at his best. The game's played next Saturday, not the autumn before last.

Ye I'm with LP, Except it isn't next saturday it's the sat after.

Warb has shown nothing to be included, I'd either consider him at 6 and Jones to lock, or just leave the team alone with AWJ and Warbs on the bench!!

Maybe a few sub appearances will help warbs.

Also someone mentioned 1/2p winning his 2nd game of the season on saturday, same will be for Warbs except he hasn't won his 2nd game yet (I don't think) so the pressure of the streak is off Tipuric but not Warbs.

I'd go with same team but a stronger bench with AWJ and Warbs there, but saying that I would demote Jenkins to the bench too for James.

Bluesman, surely this Saturday is the 16th and next Saturday is the 23rd?

We all know what's gonna happen..

Howley doesn't have the balls to drop anyone from a winning side. He will blame the turf cutting up for the poor scrums.

Howley only picked Tipuric because every single resident of Wales, pundit and media was screaming it till they were blue in the face.

No fault of Priestland's, but if he wasn't injured he would be playing too.

I'm sure Howley wanted to start Deniol Jones, Rob Sidoli, Gareth Cooper and Tom James too.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Bluesman, surely this Saturday is the 16th and next Saturday is the 23rd?

Yeah thats my way of looking at it, though have that arguemnt all the time lol

t1000advancedprototype wrote:AWJ must return.

Our scrum was terrible vs France and we badly need the extra bulk experience.

Coombs has been very good. I don't like people using this term "journeyman" and premiership player. He's a natural 6. I would like to see him on the bench as back row cover.

I agree totally.

Glas a du wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:AWJ must return.

Our scrum was terrible vs France and we badly need the extra bulk experience.

Coombs has been very good. I don't like people using this term "journeyman" and premiership player. He's a natural 6. I would like to see him on the bench as back row cover.

I agree totally.

If he's on the bench as back rw cover who is your 2nd row choice given that it will be either Warburton or Tipuric on the bench, or will Coombs be there as back and 2nd row cover