Your assured Lions starters

First topic message reminder :

Going by form over the past year or so and picking from your own national team, whom do you think is assured to start for the Lions and be on the bench?

I'll start with mine:

Ryan Jones: On form he keeps Lydiate off the plane. He's had a few dips in form in his time but right now he's on good form. He covers the back 5 but he is probably best at 6 or 8. It also gives the Lions another leadership option.

Leigh Halfpenny: This young man is class. Since the last 6 Nations he's been outstanding in every single game he has played for Wales. Unfortunately he found himself on the losing side too often post 2012 6 Nations. Had he not he would have been MOTM in every single game. He could well be the first choice kicker also. The question is should he be at wing or full-back; I'd say he's the best in his position so why move him over? We could try Hogg on the wing instead.

Mike Phillips: The best scrum-half in the NH for the past two seasons. He acts as another game manager from no.9 and is a constant and unpredictable threat to the opposition. I don't need to say much more .

Some of the following could also be involved in the Lions 23: Adam Jones, Richard Hibbard, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Jonothan Davies, George North; but they are not yet cert's in my view.

Definately going on that tour -
Cole, A.Jones, R.Best, M.Ross, Grey, Robshaw, Wood, O'Brien, Heaslip, Youngs, Sexton, Tuilagi, BOD, Kearney, Roberts, Halfpenny, North,

Those not on the list still have a lot to play for.

beshocked wrote:Sorry what has Scott done to warrant being hyped up for the 12 shirt?

Can't say I can see anyone Hyping him, but Roberts hasn't been great. I would say thusfar based on the 6N 36 & Scott have played the best at 12.

Is Roberts the only other 12 in the 4 nations? I didn't know that!

Scott gets absolutely outclassed by Twelvetrees yet is supposedly the form 12?

beshocked wrote:Sorry what has Scott done to warrant being hyped up for the 12 shirt?

Seems like after one good win vs the Italians at home the Scots seem to believe they have numerous Lions contenders but conveniently forget the result the weekend before!

Fair point, but there aren't any other candidates for that jersey right now. I also don't think Hogg is miles better than Halfpenny as Rugger seems to think .

The 12 shirt contenders IMO are Barritt,Scott,Darcy,Roberts and 36.

Barritt is in my opinion leading the way.

I think Scott is getting overrated. What's he done? Ok he did well vs Italy at home. One game.

English bias maybe...but id take Twelvetrees over Scott.

He is developing superbly now...and a combo of him and Tuilagi at 13 will be very good.

I still think if he is on form Roberts will take that 12 spot. Hes just a beast...

beshocked wrote:Is Roberts the only other 12 in the 4 nations? I didn't know that!

Scott gets absolutely outclassed by Twelvetrees yet is supposedly the form 12?

It's hard to argue the point you make here Beshocked, however you also have to consider how dominant the English pack were in that game. If the packs swapped teams it could be argued that 36 would have struggled too.

36 also seemed to struggle against D'arcy, he certainly didn't make as much headway as he did against Scotland, perhaps because England's back were not as dominant?

As for the Halfpenny thing, I can't repeat enough how highly I rate Halfpenny. He has been Wales' best player since the summer and hasn't really put a foot wrong. Herin lies the problem, he dosn't do much of the full back stuff anymore. He is to busy shoring up the creaky Welsh defence or repelling terrible counter attack ball that his pack have made a hash of, we hardly ever see his scything runs anymore.

Like I said I want him in the Lions XV, but so far Hogg has looked like a much greater attacking threat than Halfpenny.

Rugger - The English pack wasnt dominant when they played Oz in the November tests!
That famously weak Ozzy pack did extremely well when they have their 1st choice tight 5.

ruggerradge you didn't answer the question what has Scott done except for a decent win vs Italy?

The excuse of playing behind a beaten pack can only be used to a certain extent. Hogg managed to perform in those circumstances.

You don't see England fans shouting 36 for Lions 12 though do you?

Barritt completely shut BOD down, out of position too.

propdavid_london wrote:Rugger - The English pack wasnt dominant when they played Oz in the November tests!
That famously weak Ozzy pack did extremely well when they have their 1st choice tight 5.

I was commenting on the Twelvetrees vs. Scott comment PropD, Twelvetrees had a stormer of a debut thanks to his rampant pack.

beshocked wrote:ruggerradge you didn't answer the question what has Scott done except for a decent win vs Italy?

The excuse of playing behind a beaten pack can only be used to a certain extent. Hogg managed to perform in those circumstances.

You don't see England fans shouting 36 for Lions 12 though do you?

Barritt completely shut BOD down, out of position too.

And I'm not shouting Scott for the Lions yet either. I think if he continues to play this well he will tour and could perhaps grow into a test starter. Not once have I declared him a certain starter.

Hogg on the other hand I feel has done more than enough to justify selection.

Scott will have a big test against Ireland next weekend. After that we'll be in a better position to judge if he is a candidate.

ChequeredJersey wrote:It was too far (50m with te angle i think) to guarantee that the ball would go dead and Farrell himself , when asked by Robshaw if he could make it, seemed to imply he'd rather kick to touch. It was the right call on so many levels. If you can't trust your lineout to win simple guaranteed ball at the front to throw away, you may as well give up competing at rugby

And having decided to go for touch, Robshaw called the throw in to himself, made sure of the ball and made sure of the game. Watching him week in, week out, he doesn't take many lineouts but when the ball absolutely has to be secured he takes a noticeably higher proportion of them.

As for the more general criticism of his decision-making, I think he's been judged on outcomes rather than the calls themselves. Repeatedly going for the corner against Australia was the probably the wrong thing to do, but the South Africa call would have worked if England had just retained the ball and trucked it to within kicking distance (something that Quins do on a regular basis); if Botha had left the flippin' kick off alone, they'd have had a scrum and, in all probability, a very kickable penalty.

As for Farrell's "dissent", long term it's a very good thing that he's confident enough to make his own calls. He and his captain just need to find a modus vivendi. Remember that neither of them has many caps at all, and they've only played together for a handful of matches. It's not a surprise that the relationship is still forming.

Anyway, that may or may not be an issue with his captaincy. It doesn't relate at all to his own performance - in which his decision-making is first rate.

50m or not the ball doesn't HAVE to go dead, just out of play. Farell may not be able to hit the target from 50, but any 10 worth his salt is worth 60m inaacurately, and if he was that worried he couldv'e skewed it into touch after the time had gone up (accidentally on prurpose) although Ive seen this done I am not 100% if legal, maybe Robshaw and Farell weren't either!

Don't get me wrong I'd take Robshaw (at present) but in that situation and many like it recently captain would have to go to a smarter and more influencial player.

At best that situation made Robshaw look undermined, at worst he looked confused and let Farell make the decision.

Not sure how anyone can have a go at 1/2p's perfromances, he has single handedly been a match winner and Wales most important player for over 12 months!! Kearney is just getting back from injury, but starting to look good again, and Hogg has looked electric in the few games he's played. They are my 3 as Brown is flawed (and noone seems to see it) and Goode is on a similar standard to Hogg but hasn't shown the same flair.

thebluesmancometh it's a bit harsh to call Brown flawed when he hasn't been playing in his customary FB position.

Robshaw's decision did not backfire so I don't know why there's the discussion.

Brown is sheer class....

reminds me of george north

beshocked wrote:thebluesmancometh it's a bit harsh to call Brown flawed when he hasn't been playing in his customary FB position.

Robshaw's decision did not backfire so I don't know why there's the discussion.

Thusfar I would give Robshaw the captaincy. With someone like Kelly Brown or Ryan Jones in charge of the dirt trackers.

I think Robshaw has been outstanding since being given the captaincy and has grown in that role really well. The exchange at the end of the game in Dublin is IMO meaningless.

He maybe asked Farrell :

ROBSHAW : "Think you can nail that kick?"
FARRELL : "Maybe, although I'm not sure, I think I would rather go for the corner."
ROBSHAW : "Ok i'll take the lineout then."

End of story.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not sure how anyone can have a go at 1/2p's perfromances, he has single handedly been a match winner and Wales most important player for over 12 months!!

Not many matchwinning performances since the last 6Ns finished though

thebluesmancometh wrote:Kearney is just getting back from injury, but starting to look good again, and Hogg has looked electric in the few games he's played. They are my 3 as Brown is flawed (and noone seems to see it) and Goode is on a similar standard to Hogg but hasn't shown the same flair.

Pl;ease explain in what way he is flawed? (ps not saying he should be a Lion, just that sort of statement with no explanation is rather pointless)

Brown hasn't got a great rugby brain, he is a decent broken runner and has a left foot, his defence is ok but he is a bit slow.

IMHO Armitage is the far better FB, as is Foden, if not as rounded as Brown. For me Brown does well at club level and looks very good, but looks dire in an international jersey, in a tight game Brown is nowhere, but with total domination up front he may pop up for a finish or 2.

1/2p has shown quality throughout, some of his high takes, the big tackles on key ball carriers, and his workrate going forward and back, not to mention the goalkicking.
I think it was Henry who recently asked if there was a braver man in rugby! and IMHO no there isn't, from knocking himself unconcsious to nailing kicks from 50m and touchlines, he has balls of steel and is one of the very few players who is guarentee'd to travel.

Anyonbe claiming that because Robshaws decision didn't bite him in the bum thne it doesn't matter, go back to the AI's to see when they did. He makes poor decisions and so far some bite him and some don't, the Irish game didn't but doesn't mean Australia won't!!

Goode is different from most fullbacks in that he offers a secondary approach. AUS use it very well with Beale. ENG are developing Goode nicely in that position too.

For that I would take him... like Ryan Jones, he's a player which gives you options.

fa

Couldn't agree more, I was always amazed that Goode wasn't selected earlier as Farell was, has always impressed me and on the int stage I think he just needs to settle before becoming the FB in the NH.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Brown hasn't got a great rugby brain, he is a decent broken runner and has a left foot, his defence is ok but he is a bit slow.

IMHO Armitage is the far better FB, as is Foden, if not as rounded as Brown. For me Brown does well at club level and looks very good, but looks dire in an international jersey, in a tight game Brown is nowhere, but with total domination up front he may pop up for a finish or 2.

1/2p has shown quality throughout, some of his high takes, the big tackles on key ball carriers, and his workrate going forward and back, not to mention the goalkicking.
I think it was Henry who recently asked if there was a braver man in rugby! and IMHO no there isn't, from knocking himself unconcsious to nailing kicks from 50m and touchlines, he has balls of steel and is one of the very few players who is guarentee'd to travel.

Anyonbe claiming that because Robshaws decision didn't bite him in the bum thne it doesn't matter, go back to the AI's to see when they did. He makes poor decisions and so far some bite him and some don't, the Irish game didn't but doesn't mean Australia won't!!

How do you square that with England's official analysis of the Ireland game, in which they credit Brown as being the most influential player, in particular having played a key role in securing the two penalties that Farrell kicked during the sin bin period? Those 6 points won the match for England. If that's being "nowhere" I would be interested to see what you count as an influential game.

Those definite to start:

Healy
Best
Cole
Sexton/Farrell

Nobody has really challenged them in any sort of way so far.

Those likely to start or be in 23:

Ferris (if fit)
Robshaw
O'Brien
Tuilagi
Halfpenny
BOD
Youngs (Care and Murray close behind)

Those definitely touring:

Bowe (if fit)
Care/Murray
A Jones
North

Those most likely touring:

Youngs
Ford
Hogg
Kearney
Gray
Ryan
Launchbury
Barritt
Faletau
Tuperic
Corbisiero
JD2


Wing is really open season with nobody putting their hand up bar Maitland, who we cannot judge yet. Second Row also fiercely competitive any 5 of Ryan, Gray, Launchbury, Parling, AW Jones, Evans, could go. Then there's Coombs, Lawes, POC, and Charteris with outside chances.

I totally agree with the assesment that brown was key in that tight game.. In exactly the way north was for wales..

neither got the plaudits - but both showed what no others were capable of on the day.. gaining and hitting defenses hard in the right areas.

I am allways shocked at the commenst against brown.. I understand he was at fault in the scottish game but that was surely the inexperience in defense on the wing.

what brown did in that NZ game and even the irish game has seemingly been forgotton..

i would have in at FB for england

I would take nothing from the Ireland game, except for the victory. Not many players covered themselves in glory, and by claiming Brown was the most influencial player I'd disagree for about 14 forwards and Farell, unless Brown clapped really hard when his team did something right

North You mean the guy who carried once with a nicely popped up ball 4 metres out? Instead of the 16 forwards who smashed the shoite out of each other for 80 minutes.

I find it amazing when plaudits go to the guy who does the last decent acts in the match, it highlights such an ignorance for what goes into an 80 minute game of rugby!!

bluesy bluesy bluesy.. have fun I am off out..

btw i am leading the predictor again!!! and you are a wuss with the bet.. happy valentines.. x

Lydiate remains at the bottom of most peoples Lions selections with some actually questioning his ability. Thankfully Gatland would have already pencilled him in to tour so its a mute point. Robshaw has shown that he is a class act and IMO I believe he will fit in well as he does not have any ego about him, 100% er. We need a very powerful and dynamic 8 and whilst we have had a few overtures from some corners no one has really stood up yet. There's still time however.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I would take nothing from the Ireland game, except for the victory. Not many players covered themselves in glory, and by claiming Brown was the most influencial player I'd disagree for about 14 forwards and Farell, unless Brown clapped really hard when his team did something right

It's not my claim. It's the RFU's, based on their analysis of the game, as reported in the Express ([url=the Express]http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/377132/Stats-show-Mike-Brown-s-on-right-track[/url]).

He was also rated the most influential player in the Scotland game, and broke the gainline with 100% success in the SA and NZ games, too.
[url=RFU]http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/february/news-articles/130213_stats_ireland[/url]

Of course, you may be right. Got any evidence to back it up?

I would be very excited to see what the likes of North, Visser, Cuthbert, Ashton, Halfpenny, Bowe etc could do with a good platform supplied from a lions pack.

TRYFEST!

So you take every word you read in the press as gospel poor?

I read the other day how Howley was doing such a great job...

Come on get real, the back play was non existant, Brown was ok, but what he did in comparison to someone like Robshaw doesn't compare!!!

t1000advancedprototype wrote:I would be very excited to see what the likes of North, Visser, Cuthbert, Ashton, Halfpenny, Bowe etc could do with a good platform supplied from a lions pack.

TRYFEST!

They are all brilliant strike runners, but not that creative, they'll need some smart players in midfield to put them into space

IronMike wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:I would be very excited to see what the likes of North, Visser, Cuthbert, Ashton, Halfpenny, Bowe etc could do with a good platform supplied from a lions pack.

TRYFEST!

They are all brilliant strike runners, but not that creative, they'll need some smart players in midfield to put them into space

BOD and Henson are unrivalled when it comes to passing and creating space out of nothing.

thebluesmancometh wrote:So you take every word you read in the press as gospel poor?

I read the other day how Howley was doing such a great job...

Come on get real, the back play was non existant, Brown was ok, but what he did in comparison to someone like Robshaw doesn't compare!!!

Now you are either WUMming or being bizarre. I think even the Express can be trusted not to mess up reporting the output of a press release from the RFU. And the second link is to the RFU's own website.

Why do you think the RFU does statistical analysis of games? It's not to produce soundbites for journos, though that's a useful byproduct. It's to improve England's performance, and the system will be based on measuring things that contribute to winning matches, so that players can see when they are doing well and when they need to do more.

I'm not saying the system's perfect. Plenty of players contributed and Robshaw or Wood may have been more influential. But my point is that you claimed that Brown was "nowhere" in a tight game, whereas the RFU has hard evidence that the opposite is true. Watch the replay and you can confirm it with your own eyes if you take your blinkers off. Take the second of those two pens, for instance. Brown chased up his own kick, was the second player to get to the ball carrier after the tackler and was straight over the ball, on his feet. Result: Pen for holding on and 3 points. He did that twice - creating the opportunity that led to half of England's points and the whole of their winning margin. You'd credit a player for creating a try, why not for creating a kicking opportunity?

You're normally a fairly reasoned poster bluesman but everyone now and then you develop a dislike for a player and claim they're rubbish when everyone else sees that they're not. It happened with Tuilagi (though you have finally changed your mind on that) and it appears to be happening with Brown now.

He has rock solid defence and while his top end speed isnt very high he does have good acceleration, Kearney isn't particularly fast either mind. He is very good going forward, either into space where he has great strength, or running into defenders, making yards and staying on his feet. He is also very strong over the ball at ruck time.

I'd like for him to play at FB at some point during the 6N because he is more solid under the high ball and in defence than Goode is and has looked out of position on the wing sometimes. I'd also say that someone who made 7 runs for 63m in conditions like that wasn't quiet, not to mention the fact that he won 2 turnovers for england.

I like Halfpenny and think he will start on the wing, because he is a good kicker people seem to forget his weaknesses and he gets MOTM frequently for good kicking, which isn't the mark of a brilliant FB. Also, he did get bulldozed by the tank that is David Strettle.....

The RFU are hardly going to do all that statistical analysis and then air the results of who they think is most important every game are they?

They will cherry pick players who need a confidence boost etc...

Just regarding Browns contribution to that penalty, he kicks too long, is beaten by Kearney and it takes a fantastic tackle to bring him down. Brown goes over the ball (as any 12 yr old would) and as soon as there is a defender to clear out he's flattened, he was unpressured at the breakdown!!

Then we can look at his blindside wing work = non existant. When Youngs chips into the goal area it is essentially for the blind side wing and 12 to chase, Baritt was obstructed and Brown had drifted out to 1st reciever kind of role WTF!!

Brown is a better FB than Wing, and is taking criticisms of his wing play (rightly so) and the RFU are probably trying to take the pressure off him a bit!

beloved

I havn't changed my mind about Tuilagi at all, he has begun developing his game and has improved massively. I doubted his skill levels, and always stated I didn't think he had the potential to cut it at the top table, and would be a typical Tuilagi bosh brother, but he has started to show I was wrong.

And I don't dislike Brown, he is good at club level and a decent FB, but he really doesn't impress at top level and there are far better options for England let alone the lions.

For the record the most influencial backs that day were Farell and Baritt (check out the line speed in defence) Baritt was a rock, and this game suited his style.

Just on the Strettle point, the only player to come out of that with any dignity was 1/2p, Brown fluffed a 3 on 1 overlap and shipped poor ball on to Strettle who was stopped dead 3 metres out. Ask SOB, Rougerie, Hines and numerous others how difficult it is to pass 1/2p, Strettle can take no blame for that at all.

Fair enough Bluesman but we haven't yet seen the best of Brown at Test level, he needs to be played at FB where he is far more comfortable.

Agree about Barritt, does an excellent job in defence and shuts down a lot of attacking plays almost single-handedly.

If only he could offer anything going forward, he'd be a good player instead of the stop gap he is used for.

Brown is better at FB, but even then I think there are better options in Armitage, Foden and Goode.

Halfpenny didn't stop him dead though, Strettle went through him and it was only JD2 covering that stopped him scoring a try. 1/2p slowed him down, but in no way stopped him and had JD2 been a second later im sure a lot of welsh supporters would be criticising 1/2ps defence.

The only thing I can agree with is that he does get too many MOTM awards for his goal kicking, but that can be said about any FH, ask Parks!

belovedfrosties wrote:Halfpenny didn't stop him dead though, Strettle went through him and it was only JD2 covering that stopped him scoring a try. 1/2p slowed him down, but in no way stopped him and had JD2 been a second later im sure a lot of welsh supporters would be criticising 1/2ps defence.

I do certainly remember Hogg turning Goode into roadkill at Twickhenam. Hogg and Beattie were the only 2 Scottish players in that game to get any change ouf of carrying the ball into contact.

everyone else who tried got thumped.

Firstly, any reference to Matt Scott touring that people are making seems to me a touch over zealous to say the least. He played well in the Italy game but I really can't remember any other stand-out performances he's had that i've seen even at club level.

The likes of Barritt and even D'Arcy would be streets ahead in my view.

Secondly, I think we need to counter-weight some real form selections with those of truly top players who have shown consistency.

I actually put Stuart Hogg into that camp. When he first came onto the scene for Scotland (even at U20s) he looked like a class act and baring his injury he's maintained that impression right the way through to this 6N. I think he has to be considered as being close to pole position at the moment.

He's in my squad, what more do you want?

thebluesmancometh wrote:He's in my squad, what more do you want?

Deification.

Hogg, Kearney, Halfpenny, North, Ashton, Maitland.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:Halfpenny didn't stop him dead though, Strettle went through him and it was only JD2 covering that stopped him scoring a try. 1/2p slowed him down, but in no way stopped him and had JD2 been a second later im sure a lot of welsh supporters would be criticising 1/2ps defence.

I do certainly remember Hogg turning Goode into roadkill at Twickhenam. Hogg and Beattie were the only 2 Scottish players in that game to get any change ouf of carrying the ball into contact.

everyone else who tried got thumped.

Thats true radge, although largely irrelevant when talking about 1/2p and as you'll have noticed, im not suggesting Goode for the Lions. I don't even think he should be playing for England, though he was very good last weekend, Brown at 15 with Foden taking over the wing for me.

Also thought that aside from 2 carries Beattie was largely ineffectual and Haskell and Wood kept him quiet for the vast majority of that game, Hogg was great though

Aye Wood was excellent and despite me thinking he is a bell end Brand Haskell was a brute at Twickenham. His stupidity at the Aviva though won't have gone unnoticed though.

I have always been a huge fan of Wood, I think he is an excellent player.

Very difficuly not to like Wood as a player!!