Your assured Lions starters

First topic message reminder :

Going by form over the past year or so and picking from your own national team, whom do you think is assured to start for the Lions and be on the bench?

I'll start with mine:

Ryan Jones: On form he keeps Lydiate off the plane. He's had a few dips in form in his time but right now he's on good form. He covers the back 5 but he is probably best at 6 or 8. It also gives the Lions another leadership option.

Leigh Halfpenny: This young man is class. Since the last 6 Nations he's been outstanding in every single game he has played for Wales. Unfortunately he found himself on the losing side too often post 2012 6 Nations. Had he not he would have been MOTM in every single game. He could well be the first choice kicker also. The question is should he be at wing or full-back; I'd say he's the best in his position so why move him over? We could try Hogg on the wing instead.

Mike Phillips: The best scrum-half in the NH for the past two seasons. He acts as another game manager from no.9 and is a constant and unpredictable threat to the opposition. I don't need to say much more .

Some of the following could also be involved in the Lions 23: Adam Jones, Richard Hibbard, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Jonothan Davies, George North; but they are not yet cert's in my view.

I would assume Gat's will take 7 or 8 backrowers.

Wood, Robshaw, Beattie, Faleteu, SOB, Tipuric, R Jones & K Brown currentlty would be my picks.

Heaslip has gone from sure starter to no mans land in about 2 weeks. Perhaps the burden of the captaincy and the scrutiny that brings is too much for him?

belovedfrosties wrote:Halfpenny didn't stop him dead though, Strettle went through him and it was only JD2 covering that stopped him scoring a try. 1/2p slowed him down, but in no way stopped him and had JD2 been a second later im sure a lot of welsh supporters would be criticising 1/2ps defence.

That is rubbish. HP is by far the bravest and strongest defender among the FB options. He may have other limitations but last ditch brave tackling in not one of them

Bravest, possibly, strongest, definitely not, Foden takes that easily.

I also never said it wasn't brave nor last ditch, merely that had it not been for Jd coming across, it would have been completely ineffectual and i feel that 1/2p would have been criticised for not stopping strettle.

belovedfrosties wrote:Bravest, possibly, strongest, definitely not, Foden takes that easily.

I also never said it wasn't brave nor last ditch, merely that had it not been for Jd coming across, it would have been completely ineffectual and i feel that 1/2p would have been criticised for not stopping strettle.

I would agree with the point on HP being an extremely brave defender but I think there are certainly stronger tackling FBs in the home nations. Foden certainly being one.

Poorfour wrote:Will Greenwood and Tony Diprose, two players who've actually played with both Hill and Robshaw, seem to think there's less distance between them than you do, dragonsbreath.

I'll happily concede that other players are better at their specialisms. But as Diprose put it, Robshaw has no real weaknesses, works phenomenally hard and rarely makes mistakes. He's also a player whose form has been consistently high for the last 5 years - the only player to be AP Player of the Year twice.

Platitudes to make a headline and start the English media drive for Robshaw to lead the Lions. These guys are pundits and rightly think that if they say it often enough then the blind ignorant will follow. To compare Hill with Robshaw would be almost comical if you were not serious

One of the best hits from a full back ever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsMdyjLUsxQ

dragonbreath wrote:Platitudes to make a headline and start the English media drive for Robshaw to lead the Lions. These guys are pundits and rightly think that if they say it often enough then the blind ignorant will follow. To compare Hill with Robshaw would be almost comical if you were not serious

That comparison is a bit much, but I think Robshaw is the best England back rower since that era. The media have fawned over Haskell, Croft and Morgan all the while Robshaw quietly has established himself as the most important piece of the England pack.

I'm Scottish and would be pretty disapointed if anyone but Robshaw was leading the Lions in the summer. He has gelled that England team very well and their pack is now something to truly fear again.

I hope he can Gel the Lions team in a similar way.

belovedfrosties wrote:Bravest, possibly, strongest, definitely not, Foden takes that easily.

I also never said it wasn't brave nor last ditch, merely that had it not been for Jd coming across, it would have been completely ineffectual and i feel that 1/2p would have been criticised for not stopping strettle.

Watch it again and look at the ground he made to even be in position. Foden isn't even considered the best FB in England at the moment. Can't think of any examples of this fantastic defensive capability to be honest. HP puts his body on the line time and time again. If I had to pick a man to make a last ditch tackle it would be him every time

dragonbreath wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Will Greenwood and Tony Diprose, two players who've actually played with both Hill and Robshaw, seem to think there's less distance between them than you do, dragonsbreath.

I'll happily concede that other players are better at their specialisms. But as Diprose put it, Robshaw has no real weaknesses, works phenomenally hard and rarely makes mistakes. He's also a player whose form has been consistently high for the last 5 years - the only player to be AP Player of the Year twice.

Platitudes to make a headline and start the English media drive for Robshaw to lead the Lions. These guys are pundits and rightly think that if they say it often enough then the blind ignorant will follow. To compare Hill with Robshaw would be almost comical if you were not serious

Greenwood's been saying it since 2007, when Robshaw was the standout Quin in their defeat away to Stade Francais (oddly, the last time Stade beat them). That's a long old campaign for the 2013 Lions captaincy, but as numerous posters on these boards have shown, you have to start early these days.

dragonbreath wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Will Greenwood and Tony Diprose, two players who've actually played with both Hill and Robshaw, seem to think there's less distance between them than you do, dragonsbreath.

I'll happily concede that other players are better at their specialisms. But as Diprose put it, Robshaw has no real weaknesses, works phenomenally hard and rarely makes mistakes. He's also a player whose form has been consistently high for the last 5 years - the only player to be AP Player of the Year twice.

Platitudes to make a headline and start the English media drive for Robshaw to lead the Lions. These guys are pundits and rightly think that if they say it often enough then the blind ignorant will follow. To compare Hill with Robshaw would be almost comical if you were not serious

Which is exactly how Lydiate ended up being considered world class. Robshaw however, does have a lot of actual evidence showing him to be very very good. His work rate is laid out plain on paper and if you watch him you see that everything he does is of the highest quality.

Foden is coming back from a long lay off and hasn't got his form back, when he does he is world class and probably the best FB in the NH.

I get that 1/2p made a lot ground and i get that he put his body on the line and that he is very brave. What you don't seem to understand, is that in terms of actually physically tackling he was ineffectual. He also isn't very good at getting his head in the right place either.

Don't misunderstand me here, i really rate 1/2p and think hes a great little player, however he does have issues with tackling and i wouldn't consider him to be the best tackling FB for the Lions.

Foden is coming back from a long lay off and hasn't got his form back, when he does he is world class and probably the best FB in the NH.

I get that 1/2p made a lot ground and i get that he put his body on the line and that he is very brave. What you don't seem to understand, is that in terms of actually physically tackling he was ineffectual. He also isn't very good at getting his head in the right place either.

Don't misunderstand me here, i really rate 1/2p and think hes a great little player, however he does have issues with tackling and i wouldn't consider him to be the best tackling FB for the Lions.

Will Foden get back in the England team at FB over Goode or Brown...im not sure...

I think Foden at this stage is probably out of the Running, if he can't displace Goode or Brown I think the chances of him touring are slim, especially when you take into account the competativeness of the full backs.

belovedfrosties wrote:

I like Halfpenny and think he will start on the wing, because he is a good kicker people seem to forget his weaknesses and he gets MOTM frequently for good kicking, which isn't the mark of a brilliant FB. Also, he did get bulldozed by the tank that is David Strettle.....

What an idiotic comment. Flawed on so many levels, but the last part made me laugh at least. Bulldozed? Yes of course . Next you'll be telling us Strettle scored a try ! Nice to see both are still have their jerseys... Oh wait, where is Strettle again?

I think if 36 gets promoted to start ahead of barritt then he negates the need for a ball playing 15 to join the line (foden wouldn't be bad at this anyway). So Goode could see himself left out in the future.

belovedfrosties wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Will Greenwood and Tony Diprose, two players who've actually played with both Hill and Robshaw, seem to think there's less distance between them than you do, dragonsbreath.

I'll happily concede that other players are better at their specialisms. But as Diprose put it, Robshaw has no real weaknesses, works phenomenally hard and rarely makes mistakes. He's also a player whose form has been consistently high for the last 5 years - the only player to be AP Player of the Year twice.

Platitudes to make a headline and start the English media drive for Robshaw to lead the Lions. These guys are pundits and rightly think that if they say it often enough then the blind ignorant will follow. To compare Hill with Robshaw would be almost comical if you were not serious

Which is exactly how Lydiate ended up being considered world class. Robshaw however, does have a lot of actual evidence showing him to be very very good. His work rate is laid out plain on paper and if you watch him you see that everything he does is of the highest quality.

If Robshaw got injured it would barely make a difference to England. They would just reshuffle the back row and it would funtion the same way. We had the same spin about Haskell, Croft etcetc none of whom lived up to the hype and are now fringe players. It would not surprise me if Robshaw went the same way.

Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

dragonbreath wrote:Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

A blindside Flanker does not make that much of a difference. To say he does is mental!

Ryan Jones has done fantasticly well thusfar for Wales and if I were Howely I wouldn'd drop him for Lydiate. Lydiate must prove himself for his club before muscling straight back into the Welsh squad, otherwise the players would be rightly a bit miffed.

Jones has been excellent and I think you are overplaying Lydiates importance.

Strettle ran straight through 1/2p who was left unconscious on the floor, Strettle would then have scored had it not been for JD covering. 1/2p slowed him down, nothing more.

I think you are dramtically underestimating Robshaw's effectiveness in the England team, both as a player and Captain.

If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

Or if Ryan Jones plays...

thebluesmancometh wrote:The RFU are hardly going to do all that statistical analysis and then air the results of who they think is most important every game are they?

They will cherry pick players who need a confidence boost etc...

Right... because the players, who are going to be sitting down and going over that analysis in some detail with the coaches, are going to be fooled by a bit of PR puff that even you can see through. That's not going to backfire at all, is it?

Of course the RFU are only going to release highlights - a) they won't want to give all the data to the opposition; b) it's open to misinterpretation. But that doesn't mean they're going to manufacture spurious headlines.

Blues, which is actually more likely: a) that the RFU is going to concoct an elaborate piece of fictional headline management to give a boost to a player (who they could replace if they're not happy with his performance) or b) they actually know a bit more about international rugby and their own players than you do.

I can set it up as a vote if you like.

dragonbreath wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Will Greenwood and Tony Diprose, two players who've actually played with both Hill and Robshaw, seem to think there's less distance between them than you do, dragonsbreath.

I'll happily concede that other players are better at their specialisms. But as Diprose put it, Robshaw has no real weaknesses, works phenomenally hard and rarely makes mistakes. He's also a player whose form has been consistently high for the last 5 years - the only player to be AP Player of the Year twice.

Platitudes to make a headline and start the English media drive for Robshaw to lead the Lions. These guys are pundits and rightly think that if they say it often enough then the blind ignorant will follow. To compare Hill with Robshaw would be almost comical if you were not serious

Which is exactly how Lydiate ended up being considered world class. Robshaw however, does have a lot of actual evidence showing him to be very very good. His work rate is laid out plain on paper and if you watch him you see that everything he does is of the highest quality.

If Robshaw got injured it would barely make a difference to England. They would just reshuffle the back row and it would funtion the same way. We had the same spin about Haskell, Croft etcetc none of whom lived up to the hype and are now fringe players. It would not surprise me if Robshaw went the same way.

Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

This is a terrible argument for suggesting a player is world class. So if a player for my local team makes us all play better he is therefore world class? It also only means that he is a greater asset TO WALES, not a better player in general. Andy Goode would be a great asset to my local pub team, more so than Sexton is to Ireland, is Goode the greater player? of course not. There are lots of players, who in their own right are good or bad, that make their own team play better, that doesn't instantly make them a great player.

Robshaw is an excellent player because he does everything and does it all to a brilliant level, Lydiate does neither of those things.

belovedfrosties wrote:Strettle ran straight through 1/2p who was left unconscious on the floor, Strettle would then have scored had it not been for JD covering. 1/2p slowed him down, nothing more.

Just go back and watch the clip. Strettle didn't run through anyone, he's a crap player who has disapeared from the international radar.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:Strettle ran straight through 1/2p who was left unconscious on the floor, Strettle would then have scored had it not been for JD covering. 1/2p slowed him down, nothing more.

Just go back and watch the clip. Strettle didn't run through anyone, he's a crap player who has disapeared from the international radar.

I haven't even seen the clip but I get the feeling someone can't be telling the truth here......

mikey_philVIII wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:Strettle ran straight through 1/2p who was left unconscious on the floor, Strettle would then have scored had it not been for JD covering. 1/2p slowed him down, nothing more.

Just go back and watch the clip. Strettle didn't run through anyone, he's a crap player who has disapeared from the international radar.

I'm not sure why you seem to think that i believe strettle to be good, it is, in fact, entirely my point. That an average 14 stone (if that) winger can run through a FB who people are claiming to be on of the strongest in defence of all the FBs available. So you think that 1/2p had done enough with his initial tackle to stop Strettle scoring? If so then why did JD come across to tackle him as well? And why did that subsequently result in a very close TMO call, when Halfpenny had clearly stopped Strettle dead in his tracks and left him on the ground unable to score? Thats right, because he hadn't, if JD wasn't there Strettle would have just rolled over and dotted the ball down for a try. JD wrapped him up and rolled him to touch, not Halfpenny.

rodders wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:Strettle ran straight through 1/2p who was left unconscious on the floor, Strettle would then have scored had it not been for JD covering. 1/2p slowed him down, nothing more.

Just go back and watch the clip. Strettle didn't run through anyone, he's a crap player who has disapeared from the international radar.

I haven't even seen the clip but I get the feeling someone can't be telling the truth here......

Haha, I may have been exaggerating a little Rodders, but my point still stands, if JD wasn't there Strettle would have scored.

So 1/2p and JD2 double teamed Strettle...

Can we ask the TMO to confirm if Strettle did or didn't run through someone please?

dragonbreath wrote:If Robshaw got injured it would barely make a difference to England. They would just reshuffle the back row and it would funtion the same way. We had the same spin about Haskell, Croft etcetc none of whom lived up to the hype and are now fringe players. It would not surprise me if Robshaw went the same way.

Probably worth mentioning that Croft got his neck broke by Nick Easter before last summer. He's bloody lucky to be playing at all. Before that he had an exceptional 6N and going back a bit further he seemed to do pretty well on the last Lion's tour. Hes not everyone's cup of tea but I dont know what else you can do to live up to the hype.

In the meantime Robshaw will continue to quietly motor on doing everything and being the focus of a team that is just getting better and better. I never used to be sold on Robshaw but the more I see him the more I am.

Following this thread and I'm not sure if any of you guys really understand anything about tackling. A man running at full speed into a tackle being made by a player running across the field 3 metres from his own line - There are so many variables here. Of course Foxy Davies helped with the tackle but no professional player should really be stopped from that distance - 1/2 p had little time to make a proper tackle and just put his body on the line as a last resort. The only conclusive thing to come out of this event is that it greatly illustrates how much of a poor finisher Strettle is at this level, much like the mighty Banahan and the Shane W tackle again only 2-3 yards from the line.

belovedfrosties wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Will Greenwood and Tony Diprose, two players who've actually played with both Hill and Robshaw, seem to think there's less distance between them than you do, dragonsbreath.

I'll happily concede that other players are better at their specialisms. But as Diprose put it, Robshaw has no real weaknesses, works phenomenally hard and rarely makes mistakes. He's also a player whose form has been consistently high for the last 5 years - the only player to be AP Player of the Year twice.

Platitudes to make a headline and start the English media drive for Robshaw to lead the Lions. These guys are pundits and rightly think that if they say it often enough then the blind ignorant will follow. To compare Hill with Robshaw would be almost comical if you were not serious

Which is exactly how Lydiate ended up being considered world class. Robshaw however, does have a lot of actual evidence showing him to be very very good. His work rate is laid out plain on paper and if you watch him you see that everything he does is of the highest quality.

If Robshaw got injured it would barely make a difference to England. They would just reshuffle the back row and it would funtion the same way. We had the same spin about Haskell, Croft etcetc none of whom lived up to the hype and are now fringe players. It would not surprise me if Robshaw went the same way.

Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

This is a terrible argument for suggesting a player is world class. So if a player for my local team makes us all play better he is therefore world class? It also only means that he is a greater asset TO WALES, not a better player in general. Andy Goode would be a great asset to my local pub team, more so than Sexton is to Ireland, is Goode the greater player? of course not. There are lots of players, who in their own right are good or bad, that make their own team play better, that doesn't instantly make them a great player.

Robshaw is an excellent player because he does everything and does it all to a brilliant level, Lydiate does neither of those things.

What are you on about mate. What has your pub team got to with anything. You really should read what you have written before slagging others because its just drivel. You might also like to note that I have not claimed that Lydiate is WC just that his contribution in assisting his team to a WCup semi-final and GS was greater than that of Robshaw to England in the past 3 games. Players like Robshaw come and go, and he will likely be gone before you know it, at which point I am sure there will be another disposable hero for you to worship as the best ever.

Yeah after he lifts the World Cup in 2015...

dgttaylor wrote:Yeah after he lifts the World Cup in 2015...

He will be gone long before then A case of Robswho not Robshaw

Apparently we (Quins) are doing pretty well considering nobody seems to rate a single one of our players as even Int Class...

rodders wrote:Can we ask the TMO to confirm if Strettle did or didn't run through someone please?

Strettle has never run through anyone!

dragonbreath wrote:

Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

We'll see

ChequeredJersey wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

We'll see

We will indeed. I love an overconfident Englishman.

dragonbreath wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

We'll see

We will indeed. I love an overconfident Englishman.

Following such a modest proclamation about Wales' chances against England if Lydiate plays...

Yes, my comment "we'll see" reeked of overconfidence whilst yours "If Lydiate plays against England we will win" was the epitome of modesty and insight.

I'd say Rory Best is the closest thing we have to a nailed on starter at the moment for the Lions.

With Dan Cole pushing hard to nail down the 3 jersey.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yes, my comment "we'll see" reeked of overconfidence whilst yours If Lydiate plays against England we will win" was the epitome of modesty and insight.

I just said I love an overconfident Englishman. I am sure you an overconfident Welshman just as much.

As it happens I am often refered to as the epitome of modesty and insight. Have we met?

We will win though.

dragonbreath wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Wales however without Lydiate are not as effective, so if the contribution to the effectiveness of the team is the measure of a player then Lydiate is a greater asset. If Lydiate plays against England we will win.

We'll see

We will indeed. I love an overconfident Englishman.

And I love an ironic welshman. Good show.

dragonbreath wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yes, my comment "we'll see" reeked of overconfidence whilst yours If Lydiate plays against England we will win" was the epitome of modesty and insight.

I just said I love an overconfident Englishman. I am sure you an overconfident Welshman just as much.

As it happens I am often refered to as the epitome of modesty and insight. Have we met?

We will win though.

Has long as we beat the English. Eh?

insight...

from a comment of 'well see' about a team ranked 4th in the world on a 3 game win streak and topping the 6n's table??

where do you get your binoculars Dragon!

Are we really turning a resonable debate about Lions starters into a Wales vs England debate?

Come on guys lets stick to the topic , we all know England will win but we don't know who will be nailed on for the Lions so lets talk about the later.

mystiroakey wrote:insight...

from a comment of 'well see' about a team ranked 4th in the world on a 3 game win streak and topping the 6n's table??

where do you get your binoculars Dragon!

England are not as good as everyone thinks they are and we are not as bad.

Its not insight its foresight.

majesticimperialman wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yes, my comment "we'll see" reeked of overconfidence whilst yours If Lydiate plays against England we will win" was the epitome of modesty and insight.

I just said I love an overconfident Englishman. I am sure you an overconfident Welshman just as much.

As it happens I am often refered to as the epitome of modesty and insight. Have we met?

We will win though.

Has long as we beat the English. Eh?

Why try to deny it.

mystiroakey wrote:I would never take healy//

not in a million. guy needs to be taught a lesson

So you agree that Manu Tuilagi and Danny Care for example shouldnt travel too?

I don't think its a given England will win despite their superb form...firstly they have to get past mercurial France who after being bent over twice will be ripe for a win....only they could turn their form on its head, meanwhile Wales have italy and Scotland and I expect them to win both.....there is every chance both teams could be playing for the championship, especially if France beat Ireland, and England arrive in Cardiff with both sides on 3/4...a positively gusset tingling prospect