Your assured Lions starters

First topic message reminder :

Going by form over the past year or so and picking from your own national team, whom do you think is assured to start for the Lions and be on the bench?

I'll start with mine:

Ryan Jones: On form he keeps Lydiate off the plane. He's had a few dips in form in his time but right now he's on good form. He covers the back 5 but he is probably best at 6 or 8. It also gives the Lions another leadership option.

Leigh Halfpenny: This young man is class. Since the last 6 Nations he's been outstanding in every single game he has played for Wales. Unfortunately he found himself on the losing side too often post 2012 6 Nations. Had he not he would have been MOTM in every single game. He could well be the first choice kicker also. The question is should he be at wing or full-back; I'd say he's the best in his position so why move him over? We could try Hogg on the wing instead.

Mike Phillips: The best scrum-half in the NH for the past two seasons. He acts as another game manager from no.9 and is a constant and unpredictable threat to the opposition. I don't need to say much more .

Some of the following could also be involved in the Lions 23: Adam Jones, Richard Hibbard, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Jonothan Davies, George North; but they are not yet cert's in my view.

gg they have been taught there lesson and come through it allready

dragonbreath wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:insight...

from a comment of 'well see' about a team ranked 4th in the world on a 3 game win streak and topping the 6n's table??

where do you get your binoculars Dragon!

England are not as good as everyone thinks they are and we are not as bad.

Its not insight its foresight.

How good do people think England are? The 4th best team in the world? Well at the moment you can't really argue with that. I haven't heard anyone say they are better than that. Are people excited about this team going forward having beaten NZ and Scotland at home and Ireland away...well I would be pretty disappointed if they weren't (I can assure you if Wales had just put in the same performances then you would be in the same mindset).

As far as Wales go, I don't think anyone can possibly think they are as bad as their results have been, they are in a rut and I am sure they will come out of it.

majesticimperialman wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yes, my comment "we'll see" reeked of overconfidence whilst yours If Lydiate plays against England we will win" was the epitome of modesty and insight.

I just said I love an overconfident Englishman. I am sure you an overconfident Welshman just as much.

As it happens I am often refered to as the epitome of modesty and insight. Have we met?

We will win though.

Has long as we beat the English. Eh?

As long as you mean.

It would be more apt though, if we do beat England and if we hadn't already won a game (with a possibility of winning two more).

Gosh...so reading through this post theres no a single player everyone agrees 100% with...whew...this is going to be an interesting selection. One things for sure. Plenty are going to be upset before the tour even starts....

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yes, my comment "we'll see" reeked of overconfidence whilst yours If Lydiate plays against England we will win" was the epitome of modesty and insight.

I just said I love an overconfident Englishman. I am sure you an overconfident Welshman just as much.

As it happens I am often refered to as the epitome of modesty and insight. Have we met?

We will win though.

Has long as we beat the English. Eh?

As long as you mean.

It would be more apt though, if we do beat England and if we hadn't already won a game (with a possibility of winning two more).

RiscaRev There is also the Possibllity you could lose 2 more. Dont you think?

Holy sheet Madge, you don't say?

Why does Madge keep on repeating his moronic and tired clichés?

- Warren Gatland will pick a Wales starting XV for the Lions
- Gethin Jenkins versus Andrew Sheridan
- As long as we beat the English...

belovedfrosties wrote:

I'm not sure why you seem to think that i believe strettle to be good, it is, in fact, entirely my point. That an average 14 stone (if that) winger can run through a FB who people are claiming to be on of the strongest in defence of all the FBs available. So you think that 1/2p had done enough with his initial tackle to stop Strettle scoring? If so then why did JD come across to tackle him as well? And why did that subsequently result in a very close TMO call, when Halfpenny had clearly stopped Strettle dead in his tracks and left him on the ground unable to score? Thats right, because he hadn't, if JD wasn't there Strettle would have just rolled over and dotted the ball down for a try. JD wrapped him up and rolled him to touch, not Halfpenny.

Can I just ask why you're making such brass points and why do you have it in for Sir Halfpenny?

Based on this 6 Nations, he is the strongest in defence. Ireland and France, known for their strike runners and aerial bombs both tested him and he came out on top. Defence wasn't his strongest point in previous years, but now it is his most improved aspect. Also, Strettle didn't run through him so not sure where you got that from. It seems you and 'Mr Honest' have something in common . Leigh got his head in the wrong place in that tackle but it was enough to bring Strettle down, his momentum carried him over towards the line but luckily our covering defence was there. Saying he was knocked unconscious is also inaccurate. He took a bad hit to the area between his head and shoulder, but subsequently recovered and walked off the pitch and started in our next fixture. He did the same thing against Palu. The fact that neither of these hits has left any psychological blows says a lot about his character.

Best place kicker and best full back by far! Halfpenny your on the plane son. Strettle can carry your kit bag to the boarding area!

dummy_half wrote:At the moment, I'd be looking at a line-up something like:

1 - Healy. Strong probable
2 - Best. Almost nailed on
3 - Cole. Strong probable

4 - Gray. Maybe
5 - Parling. Maybe

6 - SOB. Strong probable starter at either 6 or 7
7 - Robshaw. Maybe
8 - Pick any one of 4...

9 - Youngs. Strong probable
10 - Sexton. Strong probable subject to recovery from injury.

11 - North. Maybe
12 - Roberts. Maybe (for want of better options - Scott and 12trees are promising, but very inexperienced, Barritt a bit one-dimensional)
13 - BOD. Strong probable fitness permitting (Tuilagi otherwise)
14 - Bowe. Strong probable fitness permitting

15 - 1/2p. Strong probable.

1. Healy - definite bar a lack of form after the ban
2, Best - definite
3. Cole - definite
4/5 - between Launchbury, Parling, Gray, Ryan, Evans, maybe even POC so completely up for grabs
6. O'Brien - should definitely start somewhere
7. No clear contender
8. No clear contender
9. Youngs - strong probable
10. Sexton - probable
11. North - probable
12. No clear contender IMO
13. 50-50 between BOD and Tuilagi for me
14. No clear contender, maybe Bowe
15. Halfpenny should start somewhere, Hogg is playing great, although if Kearney can find his 2012 form he is a definite, but atm probably Halfpenny

Morgannwg wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

I'm not sure why you seem to think that i believe strettle to be good, it is, in fact, entirely my point. That an average 14 stone (if that) winger can run through a FB who people are claiming to be on of the strongest in defence of all the FBs available. So you think that 1/2p had done enough with his initial tackle to stop Strettle scoring? If so then why did JD come across to tackle him as well? And why did that subsequently result in a very close TMO call, when Halfpenny had clearly stopped Strettle dead in his tracks and left him on the ground unable to score? Thats right, because he hadn't, if JD wasn't there Strettle would have just rolled over and dotted the ball down for a try. JD wrapped him up and rolled him to touch, not Halfpenny.

Can I just ask why you're making such brass points and why do you have it in for Sir Halfpenny?

Based on this 6 Nations, he is the strongest in defence. Ireland and France, known for their strike runners and aerial bombs both tested him and he came out on top. Defence wasn't his strongest point in previous years, but now it is his most improved aspect. Also, Strettle didn't run through him so not sure where you got that from. It seems you and 'Mr Honest' have something in common . Leigh got his head in the wrong place in that tackle but it was enough to bring Strettle down, his momentum carried him over towards the line but luckily our covering defence was there. Saying he was knocked unconscious is also inaccurate. He took a bad hit to the area between his head and shoulder, but subsequently recovered and walked off the pitch and started in our next fixture. He did the same thing against Palu. The fact that neither of these hits has left any psychological blows says a lot about his character.

Best place kicker and best full back by far! Halfpenny your on the plane son. Strettle can carry your kit bag to the boarding area!

Clearly didn't read the rest of my posts did you? I don't have anything against 1/2p and have said that he is a great player and would make my Lions team, all i said was that he is not as good in defense as others have said. Specifically that he is the strongest defensive FB available for the Lions, which is not the case, for me, Foden takes that one.

Pfft, Foden's not fit to lace HP's boots.

hp sauce > .5 penny

foden > hp sauce.

therfore foden wins

Of course Foden's better than 1/2p. Ben's problem is he's not good enough to get into the current England side.

I think Foden should tour. He proved how vital he is in England quarter final game against France in the RWC.

EQ nailed on:

3. Cole
7. Robshaw
9. Youngs
12/13. Tuilagi

I'd also have starters as:

1. Healy
2. Best
12/13. JD
11. North
15. Hogg

For me, and I will base it on a mix of round 1 and 2 and change positions if I think it betters the team and I know the player moved is good enough in that position: I am discounting currently injured players too otherwise Zebo and Sexton would be in the 23 at least. My actual first choice Lions team would be different.


15-Hogg
14- Halfpenny
13- BOD (on R1)
12- Barritt
11- North (just, unlucky Brown)
10- Farrell
9- Youngs
8- Faletau
7- Robshaw
6- O'Brien
5- Launchbury
4- Ryan
3- Cole (just)
2- Best c.
1- Healy

16- Grant, 17- Ford, 18- Jones, 19- Evans, 20- R Jones, 21- Laidlaw, 22- Scott, 23- Brown (despite me not liking him in general as a bench option)

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Of course Foden's better than 1/2p. Ben's problem is he's not good enough to get into the current England side.

You really have got a little man love thing going on with Ben haven't you. Go on admit it. Out you come, you know you want to

dragonbreath wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Of course Foden's better than 1/2p. Ben's problem is he's not good enough to get into the current England side.

You really have got a little man love thing going on with Ben haven't you. Go on admit it. Out you come, you know you want to

How would you know?

They say manlove is a beautiful thing.

ChequeredJersey wrote:For me, and I will base it on a mix of round 1 and 2 and change positions if I think it betters the team and I know the player moved is good enough in that position: I am discounting currently injured players too otherwise Zebo and Sexton would be in the 23 at least. My actual first choice Lions team would be different.


15-Hogg
14- Halfpenny
13- BOD (on R1)
12- Barritt
11- North (just, unlucky Brown)
10- Farrell
9- Youngs
8- Faletau
7- Robshaw
6- O'Brien
5- Launchbury
4- Ryan
3- Cole (just)
2- Best c.
1- Healy

16- Grant, 17- Ford, 18- Jones, 19- Evans, 20- R Jones, 21- Laidlaw, 22- Scott, 23- Brown (despite me not liking him in general as a bench option)

Quite like the look for this team though would probably have Tuilagi in the centres, BOD on the bench, Ashton or Bowe at 14 with Halfpenny on the bench.

Morgannwg wrote:I think Foden should tour. He proved how vital he is in England quarter final game against France in the RWC.

True, Warburton should definatly tour.

Joking aside Fodens a really difficult one. 18 months a go hes one of the few players that people were seeing as pretty much a dead cert from england to be a lion. Now hes not making matchday 23s it really muddies the waters. Its worth remembering though that he wasnt dropped on form but on injury and has been left out since due to a tactical shift and those replacing him doing their jobs well.
Certainly not playing tests makes it a lot easier for Gatland to leave him out. Also Byrne.

Halfpenny is going to tour, goalkicking aside, he just is. I note though, on these discussions though the Wales supporters suddenly forget that they have been saying he isnt a fullback and should play on the wing for Wales.

Byrne won't go but I think Foden might, I expect Kearney to start with 1/2 as utility back 3; Gats loves his utility players and if Farrell starts which i also think likely, 1/2's kicking is not so crucial. Hogg may well go if he continues to flourish, the bolter, otherwise I still think Foden has a strong sniff

Kearney will have to start showing some form as Hogg is currently breathing down his neck as an option lalong with Brown as another utility

Front row may as well already be measured for suits because barring injury its going to be Healy, Best and Cole and that is one hell of a front row.

I think 1/2p needs to get his suit now too. Not sure where or if he will start but there is absolutely no way he will be left out.

100%beefy wrote:Byrne won't go but I think Foden might, I expect Kearney to start with 1/2 as utility back 3; Gats loves his utility players and if Farrell starts which i also think likely, 1/2's kicking is not so crucial. Hogg may well go if he continues to flourish, the bolter, otherwise I still think Foden has a strong sniff

Bit of a forgotten man Ben Foden. A strong finish to the season with the Saints could easily see him in contention. Ideal for the Aussie rugby climate.

Full back has become quite a hotly contested jersey.

Byrne has no chance. Would like to see Hogg go and he has a real chance. Foden is class but hasn't exactly be shining. Kearney and 1/2p are more than likely going and probably Hogg at this stage.

I can't see either Sexton or Farrell giving up the kicking responsibilities even if Halfpenny plays.

Its the 10s responsibililty... he runs the show and you have to show confidence in your 10.

Given that Halfpenny's selection looks more vunerable since his place kicking is one of his major strengths.

It brings in other players into the equation.

If Kearney gets back to full fitness and form I would be very tempted to play him rather than halfpenny at 15. Then again... if Goode can maintain and build on his current form he offers an extra dimension to the lions options and could be very useful. Hogg also has been bang on form... if Kearney fails to improve I can see Goode, Hogg and Halfpenny being chosen and Kearney being left out (even though I think in full form he's the best of the lot).

I think you have to take into account the coaches playing style and Wales haven't gone for the fullback who plays as a second stand off - this seems to be an England choice. So I don't think Goode will be on the plane.

Kearney needs to refind his form of 2009, if he does then he will go.

Hogg has impressed in the 2 games so far this 6Ns and also did well last year. He needs to do well for the remaining 3 matches and if he plays as well then he will go.

Halfpenny for me is the one definite 15 that will be on the plane, although that doesn't necessarily make him a test starter. He has been very consistent, can cover a couple of positions and is a more than useful goalkicker. You don't want to go into a game with just 1 kicker, so although Sexton or Farrell will be first choice kicker in any game they start, having a good backup is a must.

Foden you would have to question if he can't get in the England 23, how he could go with the Lions. I can see an international retired player going - Sheridan or Wilkinson - but I can't see someone outside the existing national teams getting a call.

Sexton and Farrell are both 80%+ consistent kickers. Both world class in that department.
Halfpenny is a good bench option for kicking but then again if Sexton struggles for instance Gatland would be more inclined to bring on Farrell and have him resume duties... rather than keep a struggling Sexton on and bring off someone else for Halfpenny.

All I'm saying is that given all the flyhalf (serious) options are astute place kickers then does that alter halfpenny's test spot???

For me it does. I think Kearney is a better fullback overall at full fitness and form (he's still coming back from injury) and Goode offers more in attack in terms of distribution (much like Beale for AUS).

Then again Halfpenny probably has the most gas (not inc. Foden though I doubt he will tour).

I don't think there's anyone who doubts 1/2p will be on the tour and will be pushing hard to be part of the test team. He's potentially a great bench option as cover for the back 3 even if he doesn't start. I'm still not convinced he's as good a fullback as he is a winger, and think we may have better fullback options if everyone is on their best form (Kearney is more solid, Foden and Hogg more dangerous ball in hand) - however, on current form I think the pick is between him and Hogg, with 1/2p getting the nod for being a more rounded player.

I note Taylorman's comment up-thread about there not being a single player that everyone agrees will be a starter. I think the closest we've got to consensus is on the front row (Healy - Best - Cole) and on the half-backs (Youngs - Sexton).

I think this shows a couple of things:
1 - There are several positions where the candidates are much of a muchness. This applies equally to potentially strong areas (back row) and ones of questionable strength (three quarters).
2 - We all bring a bit of bias towards our country's representatives.

Looking at halfback selections and given the styles of play, I would say it's more likely Youngs will partner Sexton and Phillips partner Farrell. Of the retired players that will go, it has to be Sheridan. Behind Healy the LH's aren't great. Corbs is highly overrated, I'm going to be keeping a watchful eye on him when he returns for England.

Morg

Not sure Corbs is really that over-rated - most of us think he's done a decent job for England but that he's someone who's good enough rather than great. I think Marler's done pretty well too in the last couple of matches, but again he's really a case of someone who's good enough to do a job (which of course means we are rating both ahead of the Lions legend that is Tim Payne ).

If either make the Lions then I think it shows a bit of a lack of strength in depth in the position, but either would only be third choice at best for me (the new Scottish lad Grant looks pretty good to me).

I read that Corbisiero put in the most tackles in last years 6N.. I think it was in the competition but it could have been for ENG mind. Gets through a lot of work.

Grant is right up there though.

Healy's jersey isn't certain.... he's got to show and prove in the big matches he can keep his head. Everyone knew last weeks match was the big one of the championship and he and the other senior players in Ireland let themselves down.

Healy will come good, until last year I would have said Gethin was up there with him and Corbs but the fact is he has to come good cos we are light. i think Sherry will go as a proven scrummager who, had he just been an abrasive bugger, would have been one of the world's best...he always reminds me of Ferdiand the Bull

If Corbisiero was not injured I think he'd be a definite to tour.

Beefy
Agree a bit about Sheridan - all the physical attributes to be a really great prop (especially once he gained a bit of experience at not letting shorter props get under him so much), but I always got the impression he was a bit of a 'soft' character who needed to toughen up. If he'd had the mentality of MJ or Lewis Moody he'd have been awesome.

dummy_half wrote:Beefy
Agree a bit about Sheridan - all the physical attributes to be a really great prop (especially once he gained a bit of experience at not letting shorter props get under him so much), but I always got the impression he was a bit of a 'soft' character who needed to toughen up. If he'd had the mentality of MJ or Lewis Moody he'd have been awesome.

Yeah, agree with that. He always comes across as a gentle giant. Which is nice in the general scheme of things but he could do with a bit of a harder edge in his rugby sometimes. Still, I guess if he had a mean streak he wouldn't be writing those love ballads on his guitar

I recall him punching Bakkies in 09.... although I think bakkies just smiled.

fa0019 wrote:I recall him punching Bakkies in 09.... although I think bakkies just smiled.

Didn't he punch him to the goolies?

it was certainly a low blow if I recall

I think it was Bekker that he punched in the goolies if I recall. Bekker was causing havoc at a maul, and Sheridan picked him up and took the cheap little shot. Very funny.

I thought Sheridan was great on that tour to be honest. It was one of the few times I remember him actually using his size to intimidate.

Like most people have said, he had all the physcial attributes, but wasn't nasty enough. Imagine if he had Schalk Burger or Botha's mentality?

I think that test will go down in history as the most physical of modern times inc. 5 massive game moments.

Schalk gouge on Fitzgerald
BOD shoulder tackle of Russouw
Bakkies clear out on Jones
Fourie's try on ROG
ROG's take out of Du Preez at the death (I was concussed guv honest... nothing to do with me being crap/in debt to the bookies for half a bar).

fa0019 wrote:Healy's jersey isn't certain.... he's got to show and prove in the big matches he can keep his head.

Like say a Heineken cup final where the front row he was part of was destroyed in the first half only to come out in the second half and completely reverse the situation?

fa0019 wrote:Everyone knew last weeks match was the big one of the championship and he and the other senior players in Ireland let themselves down.

Can you not just be happy that your team won rather than question the integrity of players? There is such a thing as a poor winner. Maybe Jim Telfer was on to something after all.

Nothing to do with their integrity Submachine.

Healy wasn't a brute.. he was just wound up and lost the plot a little. Same with half the pack... they were too psyched and lost control. Everyone saw it.

We can't have that in a lions test. There is no next season to make amends... make a mistake and you'll regret it for the rest of your life.
SCW won 3 6N, 1 RWC, held a 12 match winning record vs. the 3N sides and yet most people in rugby remember him for his disasterous 05 experiment.

Test rugby is a little different to HC or SR. Perhaps all the players are test players themselves but test rugby does something to the players which changes everything. Mentality and control are so much more under strain.

Oh and not English.

If you want another example of Irelands senior players letting themselves down..... Heaslip gave away the most penalties inc. 2 which were kicked. He flinched.

What constitutes a big game then? Healy has over 30 caps and has played in a world cup. In a team which beat Australia. I don't think one mistake means he has to prove himself all over again.
Half the pack? The only other player who looked a lttle over zealous was POM and sure he's like that with him mam if she gives him spagheti hoops when he's asked for alphabeti.

I am truly sorry for assuming you were English. I know how hurtful that can be.

fa0019 wrote:If you want another example of Irelands senior players letting themselves down..... Heaslip gave away the most penalties inc. 2 which were kicked. He flinched.

Somebody has to have "most penalties" against their name. He is a backrow. It happens.

Sub

Heaslip had a bit of a stinker of a game though. Not that he was overly hyped-up like Healy, simply that he had a day to forget. As well as the penalties, he had two easy drops when collecting kicks and just didn't seem to be very involved in the game.

He may not have played himself out of contention for the Lions, but certainly didn't do anything to enhance his credentials, especially for a player that was being touted as a possible captain a few weeks ago.

I can't see how you wouldn't pick BOD if he is fit and in reasonable form.

As regards 'you don't need 1/2p if you have Farrell', that's failing to take into account 1/2p's range.

I'd still have Heaslip as my Lions No8 at the moment.... although I don't think he should be captain, maybe it was just not his day but big time captains always seem to perform when it matters.