My lions squad as it stands...

Healy
Corbisiero
Gray
Evans
Cole
Jones
Best
Ford
Launchbury
BOD
Zebo
Hogg
Wade
Hines
Robshaw
Wood
Tpuric
Warburton
Heaslip
SOB
Phillips
Youngs
Sexton
Farell
Roberts
Marshall
Visser
Cuthbert
Bowe
1/2p
Kearney
James
Hibbard
Tuilagi
JD2
North
Ryan
Beattie
Laidlaw
Wilkinson



There you go I would go with a squad of 40. Off the top of my head I have probably forgot a few players, but I basically selected a first 15, followed by another 15 of slightly differing options, than some alternatives who bring something extra to the party.

I have mixed them up on purpose so as not to have the debate on what player I'm taking in which position.

Feel free to rip my selections to shreds, but please ask why beforehand.

Difficult to make much sense of your team there bluesman without saying who plays where and who is in the test team and who is in the dirt track team. Just looks like a shopping list to me and I'm not a fan of lists.

You've got some fringe players like Wade and some older players like Wilkinson who are not playing test rugby so they're out in my opinion. You don't use the Lions as a development squad looking to the future.

You've got players like Roberts who show no form and Cuthbert is a defensive liability so they're out and Bowe won't take any part in the 6N so he's out.

Don't mean to p on your parade but it's difficult to extract much from your squad of 40.

I did that on purpose kia, made a mess of a list. IMHO the test team isn't selected until 7 days before the first test, and upon landing everyone has a clean slate to prove themselves.

Non capped players always tour, Earls last time and 1/2p only had a few appearances.

Not playing test rugby doesn't really mean that much, as int teams are always building to the future, was it Gatland who said this isn't a building team, it's a smash and grab (or something similar) and players like Wilkinson would definately help that.

Cuthberts defence is dodgy, but his strike rate is up there, Visser too is in exactly the same place!

Roberts has struggled in a very rigid gameplan, and without the kind of quality around him a lions tour can offer, which is key IMO, a lions team offers more than int teams do!

Bowe your right, didn't mean for him to be there, I discounted Ferris and Lydiate for the same reasoning and meant to switch him with Hook (as plenty of wing options)

I'll go into what I think my test team could look like and bench/alternative options styles later in the thread, but for now I just wanting abuse for my squad as a generis shopping list.

A guy like Alex Cuthbert won't trouble AUS. He's played them 5 times last year and was easily handled, hasn't scored in any match vs. them... we see a dozen guys like him in SR and in that perspective he's nothing special.

I recall in the final match up he got a break out in his 22 and didn't know what to do as AUS players began to reform... in the end he just tried to bosh the fullback and was easily tackled.

AUS on the other hand have guys like Toamane, O'Connor, Ioane, Cummings .. guys who will tear him apart.

If a wing scores 1 try but lets in 2 someone else would have saved then he's a liability... for that reason for me he's not ready to travel.

I agree Visser is the same... but Visser isn't as bad defensively and way better an attacker.

His stats, awards and try scoring record speak for themself.

If it was a toss up between those two it would be Visser every time.

Cuthbert did score in Aus last year fa And looked extremely threatening from very little ball.

The breakout I think your thinking of was Phillips

fa0019 wrote:I agree Visser is the same... but Visser isn't as bad defensively and way better an attacker.

His stats, awards and try scoring record speak for themself.

If it was a toss up between those two it would be Visser every time.

You think Visser is a better defender? The guy was handed off by Fionn Carr!!

Sadly fa, neither can defend, and their try scoring record are extremely similar, Cuthbert has more int tries but a few more performances, but he is ahead of where Visser was at his age at club level.

But my point is they are both very handy going forward, and would both be in my lions squad.

I think they're both pretty dire... but whereas Visser is a bit of a girl in the tackle at least he doesn't get caught out positionally.

Cuthbert in defence looks completely out of place... its like he doesn't know the plays and is off sync with everyone else.

The one thing that Visser has though is his attacking prowess. Its the best out of any wing in Europe.

So defence doesnt matter when relating to Visser or Cuthbert...yet its interesting that when Ashton is mentioned...its his defence that is brought up straight away as a reason not to go...regardless of his attacking play....

thebluesmancometh

Almost positive it was Cuthbert... broke from the 22 on the right wing. Was in open space until near the halfway line. Had ample time to try and make something more then just going into contact. looked pretty naive... should have either tried to mix it up, kick ahead.... anything but just get tackled and lose possession.

Compare that with a similar position in 2010 when Chris Ashton scored his try of the year against AUS. He knew he wouldn't make it by just tearing up the touchline or trying to bosh his way through... He is a player with a good rugby brain (albeit like the other two mentioned... poor tackler).

I disagree georide, I wouldn't take Ashton for a number of other reasons than his defence, and they don't outweigh his defencive lacking, unlike Visser and Cuthbert who are the best broken runners in the game at present.

Ashton has this tendancy to not even be in tight games, when all is going well he looks big, chest puffed up and confident, but when in the trenches Ashton wilts away. Cuthbert and Visser can still score and break lines in tight games whereas Ashton can't IMO.

It was Phillips mate, picked from a ruck and went 30 yards totally alone before putting his shoulder in. No support, no options, defenders all around and he just tried to take contact and stay on his feet.

No Ashton!

Come on dude.

We're not going to beat AUS by playing 15 Ivan Drago's.... thats what they want us to do. They can deal with route 1 every day of the week and twice on sundays.

Ashton is one of a few players who makes defences uncomfortable... he turns up here, he turns up there, he reads the game very well and upsets defences.

You can't defend players like that.... these are the players who win test matches and win series.

thebluesmancometh

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/12/2916/wales-vs-australia-december-2012-full-match

Watch the play on about 33mins.

Thats the play I'm talking about.

Firstly Cuthbert had been causing problems all day for Aus, and tried to round the defender as Falatau was 25 yards plus and fading from him, if you check again he offloads off the deck but his foots in touch. It's a good peice of defence but Cuthbert had no options as a 20 yr old winger in his 4/5th cap.

Ashton isn't the nuisance you say he is, he's a particularly average player now he's been worked out similar to Powell of Wales. Ashton is nowhere near as dangerous as Cuthbert or Visser so doesn't travle im my squad.

But the break I was thinking of was Phillips from a ruck. Both a touch niaive but both against far more organised defences as Ashtons where the Aus backling was set open to attack.

In the game where Ashton scored his try vs. AUS he was winning only his 5th cap himself.

I respect your opinions on Ashton... he's not for everyone. I myself rate him very highly.

As do I, but his game isn't where I'd want it to be to suit my team. I would take Wade and Zebo as unknown quantities but Ashton could easily have taken one of those spots, however the splash causes contraversy, media will be gunning for him and he isn't particularly likeable IMO.

I'm hoping Zebo is up and playing well by the time the squad is picked. He's very much like a Super Rugby winger. He has all the skills and believe he would do well on tour.

10 Englishman
7 scots
12 Welsh
11 Irish

Sounds about right doesn't it?

I think Zebo could be excellent on tour, but he does lack experience.

I'd take him as an outside bet.

Best, Hartley, Ford
Healy, Grant, Jenkins,
Cole, Jones, Murray

Gray, Hines, Launchbury, Ryan, Parling, AW Jones

Ferris, Brown, Harley
Robshaw, Warburton
Falatau, Beattie

Youngs, Philips, Laidlaw
Sexton, Farrell

Tuilagi, Barritt, Roberts
O’Driscoll, Davies

North, Zebo, Ashton, Gilroy, Maitland
Hogg, Halfpenny, Brown

This would be my squad, with a listed in order of preference for who would start in each position. However, I think the message should be drummed home in day one of the training camp: there are no 'starters', no 'backups' and no 'dirt trackers'. If you're on the tour, it's because you're good enough to start. If you train well, play well in the warm up matches, and form bonds withyour team mates, you will start the first test. With that in mind, my own ordering should have no bearing on who starts.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Difficult to make much sense of your team there bluesman without saying who plays where and who is in the test team and who is in the dirt track team. Just looks like a shopping list to me and I'm not a fan of lists.

You've got some fringe players like Wade and some older players like Wilkinson who are not playing test rugby so they're out in my opinion. You don't use the Lions as a development squad looking to the future.

You've got players like Roberts who show no form and Cuthbert is a defensive liability so they're out and Bowe won't take any part in the 6N so he's out.

Don't mean to p on your parade but it's difficult to extract much from your squad of 40.

Agree with that Kia. Out of interest and without wanting to have a inflatory effect on one's ego, could you give us your test/DT teams? It would be interesting to get an outsider's perspective on it. I'd also like to see Linebraker's.

thebluesmancometh wrote:As do I, but his game isn't where I'd want it to be to suit my team. I would take Wade and Zebo as unknown quantities but Ashton could easily have taken one of those spots, however the splash causes contraversy, media will be gunning for him and he isn't particularly likeable IMO.

And there in lies the problem...no likes Ashton himself, not his game.

Too be honest i dont even know why people dont like him...ive never heard ANY bad stories about him

Except from anyone at Northampton where he made himself uncontractable, the Tuilagi brothers, any SH hotels he's visited...

IMO with the bright yellow boots and the splash alone he looks too selfish a guy to tour with.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Except from anyone at Northampton where he made himself uncontractable, the Tuilagi brothers, any SH hotels he's visited...

IMO with the bright yellow boots and the splash alone he looks too selfish a guy to tour with.

Come come bluesman surely we're above that sort of facile argument.

They are bad stories about Ashton are they not?

yeah, he looks like Hartley

thebluesmancometh wrote:They are bad stories about Ashton are they not?

I think you probably feel they are because you wish them to be so. As regards Northampton there was bound to be some ill feeling there with him moving to Saracens. Your assertion that he made himself uncontrollable is based on what exactly?

As far as the Tuilagis go the incident with Manu was hardly Ashton's fault. Ashton was taken high by MT to which he responded by pushing him. The hair pulling on Alessana was not edifying and he was deservedly reprimanded for it. Whether that makes him a Lions pariah or not is clearly eyewash.

This talk of hotel room rudeness also seems a touch wide of the mark and refers to an incident the woman was somewhat embellishing. If he's made some suggestive remarks to a female member of staff and we're going to say that's suddenly a major crime then I and the rest of the male population are obviously also in need of repudiation.

Did he not give them plenty of notice of his decision and thus time to find a replacement?
Lots of other players have done this...but not of them seem to be slated for it...but because it Ashton...

v Tuilagi was hardly a biggy now was it. Handbags at five.

The hotels...well he hasnt been the only one ...but does seem to be the only one pinpointed for everything that happens.

Theres a pattern here....

Has anyone heard the phrase 'theres no smoke without fire' or 'guilty by association'?

I'm not saying Ashton shouldn't go because of some poor behaviour, disgruntled team mates, a knock out punch, but the media are going to be gunning for him if he does travel, can we at least agree he is a target?

That aside I wouldn't take him because his negatives on the pitch are not made up for by his positives, Cuthbert and Visser's do. So I would not take him based on performance and quality, the fact I and a large amount of people dislike him is not everyone elses fault.

Dear mods. Any chance there could be a new section purely devoted to Lions threads as they really are starting to clog up the International section and things are only going to get worse.

Isn't this a 'have a go at Ashton' thread rather than a Lions one?

Could probably do with a seperate section for that as well

thebluesmancometh wrote:Has anyone heard the phrase 'theres no smoke without fire' or 'guilty by association'?

I'm not saying Ashton shouldn't go because of some poor behaviour, disgruntled team mates, a knock out punch, but the media are going to be gunning for him if he does travel, can we at least agree he is a target?

That aside I wouldn't take him because his negatives on the pitch are not made up for by his positives, Cuthbert and Visser's do. So I would not take him based on performance and quality, the fact I and a large amount of people dislike him is not everyone elses fault.

Yes I think we've all heard of those phrases and that's why those of us who founded our societies and had half a brain put some systems in place so that those sort of ridiculous accusations weren't relied on to damn someone possibly without them even having done anything wrong.

I would certainly accept that he would be more of a media target that Tim McVisser but I don't know where this bizarre idea is coming from that we can't take high profile players because the papers will want to write about them. On that logic we should be taking the Nuneaton U12's association side.

His merits and faults as player are the ONLY reason he should and shouldn't tour. My argument on that point would be a) he's the only home nations winger to actually score against Australia (twice) as part of a winning team both in Australia and at home. Moreover he's a proven finisher with a work-rate that far outshines that of either McVisser or Cuthbert.

Chjw1

I couldn't disagree more, firstly Cuthbert scored in Aus last year, and looked incredibly dangerous every time he touched the ball, and Visser won in Aus last year didn't he?

So both parts of your arguments are defunct, not to mention that Cuthberts workrate is as high as Ashtons no probs, difference is end result is better with Cuthbert, and Visser doesn't really do much... except score tries!

As I said dislike aside I chose Cuthbert and Visser as better players, and Wade and Zebo as better options as outside bets.

Plus you can't discount media influence after the last world cup, did England humiliate themselves and it was made public? or did the media go for England upon landing? I'd say it was a bit of both, and as such the media will think if they get to the lions they can effect performance, especially with any English player who was in NZ!! Thats not to say I wouldn't take any, but those who traveled must bring more than their celtic opposite, Tuilagi does, Ashton doesn't IMO.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Chjw1

I couldn't disagree more, firstly Cuthbert scored in Aus last year, and looked incredibly dangerous every time he touched the ball, and Visser won in Aus last year didn't he?

So both parts of your arguments are defunct, not to mention that Cuthberts workrate is as high as Ashtons no probs, difference is end result is better with Cuthbert, and Visser doesn't really do much... except score tries!

As I said dislike aside I chose Cuthbert and Visser as better players, and Wade and Zebo as better options as outside bets.

Plus you can't discount media influence after the last world cup, did England humiliate themselves and it was made public? or did the media go for England upon landing? I'd say it was a bit of both, and as such the media will think if they get to the lions they can effect performance, especially with any English player who was in NZ!! Thats not to say I wouldn't take any, but those who traveled must bring more than their celtic opposite, Tuilagi does, Ashton doesn't IMO.

I have highlighted my original point for you here: 'actually score against Australia (twice) as part of a winning team both in Australia and at home' and as such you'll see that a) you've mis-read it and b) falsely claimed it's therefore defunct. The point stands.

I have no issue with you criticising Ashton on his merit as a player but I do have a problem with you attacking the guy's personality based on nothing more than press stories which you've obviously also misconstrued.

On the media influence point again we agree that a touring England team attract press coverage. But you're delusional to think that a touring Lions side is likely to get less media attention, completely regardless of it's make-up the Australian press will have the lot under a microscope. Do you honestly think that Irish and Welsh players could go an do some of the things England did in NZ as part of a Lions tour and it not be reported worldwide?!

That completely leaves aside any arguments about a) individuals in this England team and b) their professionalism as it stands today.

Just out of interest how many wins does the English team need in order for our players to be ranked better than their Scottish, Welsh, or Irish counterparts? England are on the backs of three decent wins(Great victory Against NZ, Solid win against Scotland, and a well ground out victory against Ireland).
But people are tending to pick Welsh and Scottish players who have both been on dismal runs of form and just won their last game, and their are decent odds they will lose their next six nations match. I think people are being abit fickle here.

I know national pride comes into these kind of decisions, but it just seems to me that people prefer to see Weaknesses in English players rather than Strength.

The bulk of the squad will be English, in particular the pack and I think Robshaw is the leading contender to the Lions Captaincy, at least I think he should be.

Also to be fair to Scotland and Wales, their players have played well in the last round of games. I'm not saying England's players didn't, it's just that I think the English players had less oppertunity to show their skills in the attritional battle at Dublin. The weather certainly didn't help.

LH X 3 Healy, Marler, Grant
TH X 3 Cole, Jones, Ross
HK X 3 Best, Ford, Youngs
SR X 5 Parling, Ryan, Gray, Hamilton, Evans
BS X 2 Barclay, Wood
6.5 X 2 SOB, Robshaw
OS X 2 Tupuric, Rennie
8 X 2 Youngs, Heaslip
SH X 3 Youngs, Phillips, Murray
FH X 3 Sexton, Farrell, Madigan (Bolter)
CT X 4 JD2, Manu, BOD, Barritt
WG X 4 Visser, Ashton, North, Zebo
FB X 3 Halfpenny, Hogg, Kearney
Utility back Goode

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The bulk of the squad will be English, in particular the pack and I think Robshaw is the leading contender to the Lions Captaincy, at least I think he should be.

Also to be fair to Scotland and Wales, their players have played well in the last round of games. I'm not saying England's players didn't, it's just that I think the English players had less oppertunity to show their skills in the attritional battle at Dublin. The weather certainly didn't help.

Agree entirely. Ryan Jones played very well and I would like to keep an eye on him to see if he can continue the form he's had with the Ospreys as well. He covers the back 5 pretty well.

i dont want the bulk of the squad to be English...i want a good cross represenation of the home nations...but i want selection ON ABILITY...not on potential media issues...or because he wears yellow boots he's arrogant etc etc...

On merit the bulk of them will be English though Geordie, don't be modest. Your team have played really well in the AI's and in the 6N.

I won't accuse you of arrogance. For me it is not arrogance to say players are playing better than others.

Im not sure the bulk will be though or should be Rugger...

I honestly think this year every nation has some quality...and every position has competition at a high standard.

Woe onto the HMP Australia then.

So Bluesman

You wouldn't have Ashton in your lions team simply because you done like him.

Personally i wouldn't have Warburton in my lions team simply because he is not on form and is not even in the Welsh starting 15 for their next game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i dont want the bulk of the squad to be English...i want a good cross represenation of the home nations...but i want selection ON ABILITY...not on potential media issues...or because he wears yellow boots he's arrogant etc etc...

There have been a few of your co-patriots suggesting that the England team is the essence and not the individuals. That they are successful because of the sum of their parts.

Do you agree with that?

1. Healy, Corbs, Jenkins/James
2. Best, Hibbard, Hartley
3. Jones, Cole, Murray
4. Launchbury, AWJ, Gray
5. Parling, Evans, Coombs
6. Jones, Wood,
7. Tipuric, Robshaw, O'Brien
8. Brown, Faletau, Heaslip
9. Youngs, Phillips, Care
10. Sexton, Farrell, Biggar
11. North, Zebo, Cuthbert
12. JD2, Roberts, Barritt
13. Tuilagi, BOD, Scott Williams
14. Visser, Ashton
15. Halfpenny, Kearny, Hogg

Utilities - Hook, Goode, A.Shingler

I actually think that the English teams form is partly taking away from individuals, the front row working well but Youngs and Marler have too much higher quality opposition for the shirt.

Maj
I have said I wouldn't take Ashton based on ability, the fact I and many others dislike him has nothing to do with it, please re read.

Ironmike

48 players? Really that many?