My lions squad as it stands...

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Healy
Corbisiero
Gray
Evans
Cole
Jones
Best
Ford
Launchbury
BOD
Zebo
Hogg
Wade
Hines
Robshaw
Wood
Tpuric
Warburton
Heaslip
SOB
Phillips
Youngs
Sexton
Farell
Roberts
Marshall
Visser
Cuthbert
Bowe
1/2p
Kearney
James
Hibbard
Tuilagi
JD2
North
Ryan
Beattie
Laidlaw
Wilkinson



There you go I would go with a squad of 40. Off the top of my head I have probably forgot a few players, but I basically selected a first 15, followed by another 15 of slightly differing options, than some alternatives who bring something extra to the party.

I have mixed them up on purpose so as not to have the debate on what player I'm taking in which position.

Feel free to rip my selections to shreds, but please ask why beforehand.

Gatland should pick the English pack and the Welsh backs - simple. OK they're not the best players but they stand as good a chance as anyone. Trying to integrate four nations is probably more than twice as hard as with two. If the Lions were picked to win, having familiar performing units is the best way to go. Of course the Lions aren't picked to be competitive but rather on a coaches whim and political expediency, so it'll be the usual mishmash of guys who don't know each other's name never mind their game.

I thought Cuthbert was great in Aus, he'd be worth a punt.

I'm not sure of all this talk about Ashton, he's supposed to be a very down to earth bloke. I'd very much doubt he'd be an issue on tour and if he was left out for these reason how would Tuilagi tour, have people forgot the ferry incident??

Wade is a curious choice, he's looked pretty average even at Saxons level so I'm unconvinced he'll be ready for a Lions tour.

Just seen your post chjw131.

Just for interest's sake I would go for the following. I'll put my test and shadow player because to be honest I'll struggle in the forwards.:

1. Healy (another loosie) Corb...
2. Best (another loosie) Youngs
3. Cole A real tough one for me let alone finding the other one. Murray if there are no Sunday games.
4. Launchbury Gray
5. Parling Ryan
6. SOB Jones
7. Robshaw Tupiric
8. Beattie Faletau
9. Youngs Murray
10. Farrell Sexton
11. North Zebo
12. Barrit JD2
13 Tuilagi BOD
14. Halfpenny Ashton
15. Hogg Kearney

Feel free to rip that team to shreds. Think Australia are very good at exploiting team's weaknesses and too many centres and wingers are defensively frail to tour Down Under in my view. Halfpenny is a rock on defence but I think he can be a better attacking player on the wing. Hogg seems to be a bigger threat running the ball back and on the counter attack. Give Farrell the kicking duties and have Halfpenny as kicking cover. Stick to combinations as much as possible between key positions. Defence and players who can steal ball are vital but you must take the game to Australia rather than be conservative and look to crash it up in the forwards as Australia are more robust there than people often given them credit for.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I actually think that the English teams form is partly taking away from individuals, the front row working well but Youngs and Marler have too much higher quality opposition for the shirt.

Maj
I have said I wouldn't take Ashton based on ability, the fact I and many others dislike him has nothing to do with it, please re read.

Ironmike

48 players? Really that many?

I expect 32-35 players max, we know what happens when the squad gets too large

100%beefy wrote:I expect 32-35 players max, we know what happens when the squad gets too large

... they roll over?

Have they said 6 props? if so add Marler

1) Healy, Jenkins
2) Best, Ford, Youngs
3) Cole, A.Jones, Ross
4) Gray, Launchbury
5) Ryan, Coombs, Parling
6) Lydiate (will have most of the season left for him), R. Jones
7) Robshaw, O'Brien
8) Heaslip, Faletau
9) Youngs, Murray, Care
10) Sexton, Farrell
11) Zebo, North, Brown
12) Barrett, Roberts
13) B.O'D, Tuilagi
14) Visser, Ashton, Cuthbert
15) Hogg, Halfpenny, Goode

Makes a squad of 37/38 ish

From that would go with

1) Healy
2) Best
3) Cole
4) Gray
5) Ryan
6) O'Brien
7) Robshaw
8) Heaslip

9) Youngs
10) Sexton
11) Zebo
12) Barrett
13) O'Driscoll
14) Visser
15) Hogg

16) Ford
17) A.Jones
18) Parling/Launchbury
19) R.Jones/Lydiate
20) Murray
21) Farrell
22) Tuilagi
23) Halfpenny

Halfpenny's ability to play wing and full back gets him on instead of any winger or full back. Behind them you have other experienced players like Lydiate, G.Jenkins, Roberts and Ashton if required. One thing is for sure, the selectors will have one hell of a headache! This is something I did quickly in 15 minutes, if I had thought about it more in depth I probably would have changes in there.

The Great Aukster wrote:

100%beefy wrote:I expect 32-35 players max, we know what happens when the squad gets too large

... they roll over?

no, no, no, they spontaneously combust

I suspect the squad will be something like 38 players - two full XVs plus a bench, which means 3 for each front row position, 5 second rows, 7 back rows, 3 SHs, 3 10s (maybe one covering 12), 4 centres, 7 back three (maybe one covering 13).

Pack:
1 - Healy, Grant, Corbs (subject to fitness)
2 - Best, Gray, Hartley
3 - Cole, Jones, Ross

SR: Gray, Parling, Ryan, Launchbury, Ryan Jones (utility - covers 2nd row and 6, 8)

Flankers - SOB, Robshaw, Rennie (if fit), Ferris (if fit), Lydiate (if fit).
8 - Beattie, Faletau

9 - Youngs, Care, Phillips
10 - Sexton, Farrell, Flood (covers 12 at a push)

Centres - BOD, Roberts, Tuillagi + 1 (Barritt if we want to be defensive, JD2, 12trees or Scott if we are more adventurous).

Back 3 - 1/2p, Hogg, North, Ashton, Brown, Maitland?. Maybe Bowe if fit (can cover 13 as well) - Earls if not.

dummy

Have a few questions for you...

4 of your forwards are fitness concerns and havn't played in a while, do you think that's wise?

Who is the Gray at hook?

At lock your missing Evans (possibly the standout in the tournament so far) and theres is a lack of brutality because of so IMO. Could Hines not be an option?

Are Lydiate Ferris and Rennie credible options when the likes of Wood and Tipuric are playing so well?

I see your case for the 3 9's, but couldn't an argument be made for Laidlaw and his kicking game?

How do you justify Ashton, Bowe/Earls and Brown over the likes of Cuthbert and Visser who are clearly try machines and best formed wingers around?

Also there seems to me to be a lack of experience, especially in the 10 spot, don't you think a player such as Wilkinson would be a very good influence on the team and a solid 10 option (as Sexton and Flood tend to blow hot and cold on the int stage, and Farell is very young)?

If they are fit, Ferris and Lydiate are on a different level to Wood, There's no comparison. Likewise Bowe to both Cuthbert and Visser. If they are fit they have to travel.

Blues

Meant Ford as the hooker and just had a brain fade...

Haven't seen the Wales v France game, so don't know if Evans had a really good game. Gray did for Scotland while the two English locks have been good for the last 3 or 4 matches, and Ryan has really impressed me for Ireland. Ryan Jones as I said is a bit of a utility pick, but could easily be replaced by a pure 2nd row.

As for fitness, we've a few months left before the squad is picked, and I'm pretty sure that all of the four I named are close to being fit to restart playing - have no worries over Corbs, not been out particularly long. Rennie was the outstanding 'fetcher' 7 last year so offers something different (better than Tipuric), while Lydiate and Ferris are just very high class players. Wood is unlucky in my selection - next on the list.

Considered Laidlaw for his versatility, but clearly Youngs is ahead of the pack and Phillips offers a physical option - Care is the most replaceable, but I think he's a significantly better scrum half than Laidlaw.

Wingers is probably the most interchangeable - I include Brown because I wanted 3 guys who can cover FB, Bowe or Earls because they can cover 13 (at least in a midweek game), while Ashton, Cuthbert and Visser are for me much of a muchness - good runners with the ball but not so clever in defence. Ashton has done more against Aus and is the most experienced of the three, plus my English bias may have played a part.

I don't see Wilkinson as a viable option at 10 - his most recent international performances (18 months ago) weren't much good even though he was reportedly playing well at club level at that time. Also, Sexton has 20-odd caps and Flood 50+, while Farrell has a very old head on young shoulders, so I don't see experience as that critical (10 is not a position of great strength though...)

Nicely considered mate!

My 23 for the first test would look like...

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. Evans
6. Robshaw
7. Tipric
8. SOB
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. Visser
15. 1/2p

16. James
17. Ford
18. Launchbury
19. Heaslip
20. Youngs
21. Farell
22. Wilkinson
23. Hogg

phillips at 9???

Wilkinson and Farrell?

And why not? I've gone for a very big, physical pack with a lot of breakdown nous, Cole, Tipuric, Best and Robshaw will all cause a nuisance, and with Phillips, Tuilagi and Roberts the ball carrying options are almost limitless, with no real worry that lumps like Jones, Corbs etc won't support quick enough.

IMO it's quite simple, you nullify Pocock and you win the arm wrestle at the breakdown, Tipuric will compete with Pocock, and with carrying options in my pack we will win the breakdown, winning the breakdown gives posession and with posession comes more brutality in wider fringes.

Youngs enters the fray between 10 -20 after half time to open things up a touch, along with Farell. I know this sounds odd but Farell can't start because we need a better distrubuter for Roberts and co to be usefull, and his kicking game will be useless for a posession game. Youngs and Farell therefore shift focus from the brutality in the tight and fringes to the wider channels (whats the point bringing Phillips off the bench to do so with a lesser delivery quality than Youngs)

You want a better distributor.. You use youngs at scrum half

Chjw

I know I know, but look at it from my view, Wilko offers a better bench option than BOD or JD2 IMHO.

Sexton is the distributor under higher pressure (we know he can play the killer pass) Farell is the option for more width, if we need to score, however if the initial plan has been more succesfull than originally thought a Farell Wilko 10/12 option to shut the game down would be very usefull.

I always think that coaches either pick thier best 15, followed by their best players on the bench, or pick thier best 15 with gamechangers in case of losing on the bench, noone seems to pick thier best 23 as a total unit anymore, if we are behind Youngs, Farell and Hogg can speed tempo up, Heaslip would be a great bench option too, but even though Farell seems ice cool could he come on and close a game down? Especially with the type of players outside him? Wilko just offers that possibility of helping with both eventualities whereas BOD and JD2 don't.

If we have young and farrel on to start we wont be behind in the first place..

Leave beating OZ to the players that can Blues..

Mister

I see your point, but distribution at 9 is less important in my gameplan than at 10, Phillips or Laidlaw off the bench would be far less effective than Youngs, and when I wanted quicker more precise delivery Youngs would be tiring, and getting sloppier as all players do. Youngs is arguably the better (more conventional) 9 and in better form, but that doesn't help my gameplan, it's not about 1 man,it's about the W.

How could a 9/10 combo dictate a whole game? If we lose the breakdown battle they are nullinvoid, so they are not in the game, In that sense Phillips and Wilko would be far better!

Tactics are about forcing your plan onto the match but at the sametime planning for eventualities (meaning negative and positive)

Its only aus though- if we were playing SA i may agree with you.. But should we really put phillips in based on his recent record against them and the way oz plays..

Lets wait and see what happens after this 6n's i suppose..

Aus are goinna play an open game. there is gonna be space. Youngs has surely proven to be a decent distributor when needed..

Sexton to start I am ok with.. Just. If we need to attrition this win. The kicker i want is farrel..

Kicker? You mean out of hand or at goal, because at goal 1/2p and Farell are neck and neck, and if Sexton distribution can be made use of without losing goal kicking options I decided on Sexton over Farell, but like I say I would want Farell on the bench.

If all goes well with my gameplan Farell and Youngs come on, quick solid service for a deeper 10 who has Wilko outside him and they use the corners and play a territory game.

If things go poorly with my brutality type game in the tight Phillips is the better defencive option with Youngs and Farell coming off the bench for a wider channell target, in an attempt to expose them wider.

Any way I look at it Youngs is my bench man no matter who starts.

This may sound really sad- but this is gonna be the first lions i have seen!!(well apart from when i was a kid)

Only had sky for the last couple of years, not a pub person for rugby..(Rugby isnt ever shown in my locals anyway)

I am actually looking forward to it..

Well tbh I tend to find Lions a bit of a let down in general, early morning pub breakfasts, mid afternoon games, you lose a sense of occasion when some friends can't come to see some games, your not available for others etc...

This time however I am travelling down so it'll be my first lions tour (unless too many Englishmen are picked than I'll sell my tickets)

your going~!!!

Ye, have friends in Melbourne (and missus has family there too) so we decided to make a month of it...

Me 2. How to get tickets ?

I honestly don't get any of this hype for Visser, yes he has a good try scoring rate but he's only played a handful of games (not sure that counts as a proven try scorer either tbh). He also tends to stand out on his wing and virtually all of his tries have come from him standing on his wing, getting the ball and running forward with no-one to beat (italy game excluded, but any winger would have stepped the defender).

I would back Ashton to have scored from the same position for all of Vissers tries, but i doubt Visser would have scored some Ashtons, mainly because he wouldn't have been there.

Also, can we please stop this whole "the Lions should be picked on form" before choosing a player like Warburton.

I also hope that the Lions don't play your brutal smashing game blues, they play against SA who do that but a whole lot better. It's also the reason that Wales haven't been able to beat them, you cannot run through the Aussie backs. So for that reason, players like Phillips, Cuthbert shouldn't be too heavily relied upon. They don't tend to see space, just the person in front of them. Youngs has to start if he keeps his form up, he has played some of his best stuff against Oz and has always come out on top of Genia, whereas Phillips has constantly been left looking slow and ponderous against him.

beloved

Few little flaws in your argument though...

1. Visser is Rabo top try scorer for the last 3 seasons for a reason, he is a top finisher. He has nearly as many tries for Scotland as he does caps too, lets not pretend Embra or Scotland are the creative powerhouses you seem to be suggesting!

2. You can't claim Ashton could score Vissers tries but Visser couldn't score Ashtons, it's petty and ignorant!

3. I havn't mentioned form, I have selected a number of players who aren't playing int rugby at all (Marshall, Wilkinson, Hines, Wade)

4. Whos talking about running through the Aussie backs, I'm talking about brutality in the tight, and around the fringes. Beating the Pocock and Higginbotham with pure force, numbers and stretching them where we want them to be.

5. Cuthbert has scored v Aus and is a constant thorn in their side.

6. Claiming Youngs has come out on top of Genia is a joke, Youngs might have been on the winning side but Genia is by far the better player behind a far lesser pack.

7. Infact comparing any head to head by 9's is pure ignorance IMHO.

thebluesmancometh wrote:beloved

Few little flaws in your argument though...

1. Visser is Rabo top try scorer for the last 3 seasons for a reason, he is a top finisher. He has nearly as many tries for Scotland as he does caps too, lets not pretend Embra or Scotland are the creative powerhouses you seem to be suggesting!

2. You can't claim Ashton could score Vissers tries but Visser couldn't score Ashtons, it's petty and ignorant!

3. I havn't mentioned form, I have selected a number of players who aren't playing int rugby at all (Marshall, Wilkinson, Hines, Wade)

4. Whos talking about running through the Aussie backs, I'm talking about brutality in the tight, and around the fringes. Beating the Pocock and Higginbotham with pure force, numbers and stretching them where we want them to be.

5. Cuthbert has scored v Aus and is a constant thorn in their side.

6. Claiming Youngs has come out on top of Genia is a joke, Youngs might have been on the winning side but Genia is by far the better player behind a far lesser pack.

7. Infact comparing any head to head by 9's is pure ignorance IMHO.

1. In the RABO visser is a proven try scorer, i don;t think scoring in your first few games counts a proven, if he can keep up a decent rate for this first 15-20 caps or then yes, for me, its too early to call him proven.

2. I claim this because i have seen them both play. Ashton tracks the ball and gets into support for line breaks, Visser doesn't do this to anywhere near the same level and prefers to stay on his wing and so would not get into the same positions as Ashton and thus would not score. As i said with Vissers tries, the vast majority have involved him catching the ball and running straight forward, i don;t think its an exaggeration to say that Ashton would have scored them as would most international wingers.

3. This more a general comment than anything directed at you, though your inclusion of Warburton did remind me of it.

4. Apologies, but when you started talking about brutality and big carriers i made the assumption that running through them was the aim of the day.

5. I disagree, you've probably watched more of him against Oz than i have but whenever i've seen him he runs into tacklers and makes a couple of yards and as i stated previously, running through the Aussies doesn't work.

6. Youngs did come out on top of Genia, i didn't say he was a better player (on top form i'd say they're pretty equal with Genia maybe nicking it) but its true that when they have played against each other Youngs has come out looking the better player. The same cannot be said of Phillips, who was given a decent platform but failed to perform.

7. Seeing 2 players play against each other in the same game is probably the best way of comparing them, if you have half a brain you can account for things like pack dominance.

8. Try not to start calling people ignorant as well bluesman, it makes you look very pretentious and frankly rather petty.

belovedfrosties wrote: He also tends to stand out on his wing and virtually all of his tries have come from him standing on his wing, getting the ball and running forward.

International winger in 'scores tries on wing' shocker...

thebluesmancometh wrote:My 23 for the first test would look like...

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. Evans
6. Robshaw
7. Tipric
8. SOB
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. Visser
15. 1/2p

16. James
17. Ford
18. Launchbury
19. Heaslip
20. Youngs
21. Farell
22. Wilkinson
23. Hogg

Just, no.... I would sob for a fortnight if this were the team.

Centres are too bosh. Wings don't defend. SH can't release the footballers or the speed merchants. Locks aren't in good form. Sorry, just not for me.

If you are looking to stretch defences out wide and exploit space you need to rethink your back line.
Care/ youngs/ Murray at 9
Sexton / Farrell at 10
North/visser at 11
Twelvetrees / Scott at 12
Bod / Manu at 13
Maitland/ halfpenny / ashton at 14
Hogg/ halfpenny at 15

Barrit/ Kearney/ bowe / brown in the wings.

Those backs will tear up the ground and give Australia all sorts of headaches.
Although opinions differ.

2. I claim this because i have seen them both play. Ashton tracks the ball and gets into support for line breaks, Visser doesn't do this to anywhere near the same level and prefers to stay on his wing and so would not get into the same positions as Ashton and thus would not score. As i said with Vissers tries, the vast majority have involved him catching the ball and running straight forward, i don;t think its an exaggeration to say that Ashton would have scored them as would most international wingers.

Visser actually does come off his wing and tracks in a very similar way to Ashton as can be seen from his play in the Rabo. He has not done this much yet in the test arena as he is still feeling his way into the game and playing cautiously although he was beginning to do this against Italy. Visser does need a good six nations to get on the plane tho but I bet he does


Laidlaw - I would want his generalship on the pitch. A player much underrated by many who did not see him on the top of his game last year. Another who needs a good six nations to get on the lane tho. And another who I think will do so. I do look forward to watching him give Phillips a schooling

Andy Sheridan has to travel for me, apart from Healey he is still the best in the NH.

beloved

1. I see your point, the rabo is a different ballgame and his int career is what 8 matches or so, but look at the sides he's playing in, Scotland and Embra are renowned for struggling with back play, neither get the ball wide with any real quality and both teams are severely lacking 13 attacking nous. He is scoring tries in malfunctioning backlines.

2. Well you claim Ashton would score Vissers tries, but then claim Ashton makes different support lines, so if Ashton is shadowing the 10 how does he score Vissers tries out wide?

3. Warburton is a dodgy call, I personally wouldn't have had him starting for Wales since the WC, he had a long injury and was rushed back. That said I think he'd bring a certain amount of professionalism to the squad, mixed with the likes of Wilkinson he's add to a very professional atmosphere. Lets be honest he's a very good player struggling for form, he'd be nowhere near my test team at present, but a tourist he would push others on and is a very good man to have around the training pitch. Plus we need all the fetchers we can get, and Rennie is playing even worse.

4. Ye when I meant brutality I meant using big ball carriers in Healy, SOB, Evans, and Gray, then mixed in with Phillips, and the centres hitting inside the 10 chennel, keep Pocock and co tight before using strike runners out wide. Frustrate the Aus team with posession, and offer Genia no platform through no ball.

5. Last summer Cuthbert was in his international debut season, and was a little niaive at times, but he scored a good try and wade tons of metres by both hitting gaps and bludgening out wide over the 3 tests, he was one of our most potent weapons.

6. Youngs looked to come out on top of Genia because of near domination by the English tight 5, in the same way Care looked awfull in the AI's because the Aus tight 5 were on top (against Phipps was it?)

7. Aus pack had total domination at the breakdown last summer, Phillips was a victim of trying to wrestle Pocock away from any ball he saw. Anyone claiming Phillips looked awfull against Genia needs to re assess what a scrum half does. Genia had a wonder game and beat Adam Jones on the outside before highlighting to the world that Hook is not a fullback!!!

8. Apologies for the ignorant remark, it was crass. I just get irked when head to heads are mentioned to compare ability when there are so many other deciding factors that sways the outcome of that head to head.

Barney

Tuilagi is far from just bosh, he has shown a lot of improvement recently, and his bosh work is unparalelled. Look at how the SA centres bully Aus every year, Roberts and Tuilagi suit my proposed gameplan very well.

Both wingers aren't great defenders, but name me some who are? Ashtons as bad, 1/2p hasn't played wing in forever, Bowe isn't playing and North IMHO isn't as good a finisher as those 2. I want my wings to strike at very certain times, allrounders I couldve gone with for safety, but my plan is for a posession domination tactic.

Again as I stated the first part of my game isn't about total rugby, it's tailored for a posession frontal assault in the tight exchanges, then later in the game the mnore fluid players enter the fray.

Evans is the form lock IMHO, and Gray has struggled with lesser players around him (Carter would be struggling at Sale right now) but both are very mobile and love to carry, not to mention very strong scrummagers and very good lineout options!!!

What makes you think Gray is a big scrummager Blue?

Not huge but from what I hear he's solid enough, Evans is a monster mind. I did toy with Launchbury (very impressed by him) but thought he'd be a stronger option off the bench than the other 2, but then also toyed with Hines to start over Gray too.

sirtidychris wrote:Andy Sheridan has to travel for me, apart from Healey he is still the best in the NH.

Better than Gethin Jenkins thats for sure.

Couldn't make an argument against you for that maj (no matter how hard your trying for a wind up)

Sheridan is preferred to a Top 14 style than Geth, however a fully fit Geth is by fer the superior player.

If I had to take one right now the Sheridan would be my prefered choice.

I wouldn't take Sheridan.

Pretty much a passanger in the loose and an overrated scrummager.

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't take him either, but if it was a straight up choice between he and Jenkins...

Grant/Corbs/Healy

Let Jenkins & Sheridan have the summer off

I might have a go at this one, some interesting debate and squads being picked so far to say the least...

Props: Healy, Grant, Corbs (if fit, James/Marler if not), Cole, Jones, Ross. Quite impressed with Grant right now, while for me Gethin Jenkins is no longer good enough. Ross just sneaks in ahead of Murray for the last TH spot.

Hookers: Best, Hibbard, Hartley. I think Hartley will win back the shirt from Youngs sooner rather than later, England's line-out improved when he was on last week-end. Hibbard edges out Ford for the third spot.

Second-row: where the problems really start for me. A lot of options, though no absolute stand-outs. I'd go with Gray, Parling, Ryan, and one of the youngsters Coombs/Launchbury.

Back row: probably the strongest area for the Lions. To make life easier for myself I'm only picking players who are currently fit, so would go: R. Jones, Wood, SOB, Robshaw, Tipuric, Morgan, Faletau.

SH: Youngs, Laidlaw, Phillips. I like Murray, but I think these three each offer something a little different, and should all tour.

FH: Farrell and Sexton well ahead of the rest at this stage. Would expect the Lions to take one more, but at the moment can't see who else. Laidlaw of course covers FH but not to a brilliant standard IMHO...

Centres: I'm not sure on BOD. Was good against Wales, but poor against England, and not sure his body's really up to it anymore. I'd go with Baritt (shut out BOD almost completely last week-end, and IMO is really under-rated), Scott (I'm a big fan, think he's a cracking player, how did it take him so long to break into the Scottish side?), Tuilagi, JD2.

Back three: North, Ashton, Visser, Halfpenny, Kearney, Hogg, and one more (Bowe if fit)