The Scotland Post-Match Incredulity Thread - Daylight robbery

[TJ1]

First topic message reminder :

[Morgannwg]

WALES.

[GLove39]

You know what it reminded me off? The game that is...

the opener of the 6N this year. The only difference being we held Ireland at bay and they were within striking distance when we gained the ascendency. Kidney helped by taking Jackson off, but essentially it was a repeat of the game at the millenium stadium except Scotland defended better. Ireland powerful and dominant in the 1st half but as the 2nd half wore on we came back into the game. Although in the Ireland vs. Wales game the welsh were too far behind to really threaten.

thoughts?

Said the exact same thing to my mates in the pub afterwards.

Also isn't it weird how under Robinson, as a general rule, we'd dominate possession & territory and lose close games. Interesting to see it flip the other way.

[malky1963]

Wayne Barnes lost control in my eyes, at least six yellow card offences in the Scottish 22 but he just kept warning them, i felt pretty sorry for the Irish the Scottish just payed a negative illegal game at the break down and the ref just let them.

Ludicrous comment

[funnyExiledScot]

Staggering win given the circumstances. I can't believe that Heaslip didn't opt to build a lead before kicking to the corners - had we gone in 9 or 12 down at the break we'd have been done.

From a Scotland perspective, I was hugely pleased with the scrum and lineout, I really didn't expect us to come out on top in either of those contests. On the negative side we were taught a lesson in the contact area once more, and we were terrible at the breakdown in the first half. Laidlaw kicked too much ball, so we never generated any sort of continuity. It wasn't that the box kicks were bad, it's just that they deprived us of getting our backs into the game and accordingly not a single line break was made. I also thought our one on one tackling was poor - Ireland made three line breaks from missed tackles, with Beattie, Scott, Lamont and Laidlaw culpable. Can't allow that against Wales.

I thought Wayne Barnes was extremely poor (although not as bad as Joubert's demolition of France). Both Ireland and Scotland suffered from some frankly bizarre reffing (including some daft interventions from the touch judges).

In terms of the Wales game I don't envisage many changes, in fact Geoff Cross may well get the chance to continue ahead of Murray. Weir was good coming on, but the criticisms of Jackson are as always silly. He never at any stage received decent ball, and I thought his tackling performance was very good. His line kicking wasn't the best, but he should never be taking those kicks. Hogg is a better kicker, and it baffles me as to why Johnson would ignore that.

I think the last word needs to go to the Irish. Butchering those chances was one thing, but failing to build a respectable lead through penalties in the first half was utterly avoidable and for that Heaslip must take some blame. Ireland were comfortably the better side, despite the injuries, so some consolation should be taken from that, plus Luke Marshall looks the real deal at centre.

A tough one to take and I sympathise.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Staggering win given the circumstances. I can't believe that Heaslip didn't opt to build a lead before kicking to the corners - had we gone in 9 or 12 down at the break we'd have been done.

From a Scotland perspective, I was hugely pleased with the scrum and lineout, I really didn't expect us to come out on top in either of those contests. On the negative side we were taught a lesson in the contact area once more, and we were terrible at the breakdown in the first half. Laidlaw kicked too much ball, so we never generated any sort of continuity. It wasn't that the box kicks were bad, it's just that they deprived us of getting our backs into the game and accordingly not a single line break was made. I also thought our one on one tackling was poor - Ireland made three line breaks from missed tackles, with Beattie, Scott, Lamont and Laidlaw culpable. Can't allow that against Wales.

I thought Wayne Barnes was extremely poor (although not as bad as Joubert's demolition of France). Both Ireland and Scotland suffered from some frankly bizarre reffing (including some daft interventions from the touch judges).

In terms of the Wales game I don't envisage many changes, in fact Geoff Cross may well get the chance to continue ahead of Murray. Weir was good coming on, but the criticisms of Jackson are as always silly. He never at any stage received decent ball, and I thought his tackling performance was very good. His line kicking wasn't the best, but he should never be taking those kicks. Hogg is a better kicker, and it baffles me as to why Johnson would ignore that.

I think the last word needs to go to the Irish. Butchering those chances was one thing, but failing to build a respectable lead through penalties in the first half was utterly avoidable and for that Heaslip must take some blame. Ireland were comfortably the better side, despite the injuries, so some consolation should be taken from that, plus Luke Marshall looks the real deal at centre.

A tough one to take and I sympathise.

No you don't.

[RDW]

FES - I completely disagree on Jackson.

Yes he didn't get much ball but look what he did when he was given it - 2 sliced clearance kicks, 1 sliced penalty kick and 1 restart out on the full, just when we were needing to relieve some pressure.

Weir made a massive difference when he came on and we can't go into the next two games with question marks over our stand offs kicking.

Yes he tackled well, but that isn't reason enough on it's own for a 10 to keep his place - that isn't what he's there for really.

[RuggerRadge2611]

My only changes for Wales would be to change Weir for Jacko, Barclay for Harley and ship Brown to 6 and possibly Dunbar for Lamont.

Lamont was caught our a couple of times against Ireland and I would have him on the bench instead of Maxwell Evans.

[funnyExiledScot]

FES - I completely disagree on Jackson.

Yes he didn't get much ball but look what he did when he was given it - 2 sliced clearance kicks, 1 sliced penalty kick and 1 restart out on the full, just when we were needing to relieve some pressure.

Weir made a massive difference when he came on and we can't go into the next two games with question marks over our stand offs kicking.

Yes he tackled well, but that isn't reason enough on it's own for a 10 to keep his place - that isn't what he's there for really.

Weir's first line clearance would have been caught before crossing the line had Ireland placed someone correctly on the touchline, it was a lucky kick and a mis-strike. He also came on when momentum in the game was turning, so it's not a fair comparison.

I do think though that if we're going to play a purely defensive and kicking based game, with the odd counter-attack sprinkled in (not that we mounted a counter-attack of note yesterday), Jackson isn't the right sort of 10. We need someone able to hump the leather off the ball and give us better territory to attack the set piece, and in that regard Weir fits the bill. Jackson was the right 10 against Italy.

[George Carlin]

FES - not sure I understand your position - should the Rhubarb start against Wales in your view?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Wee Dunky certainly galvanised the team and the crowd when he came on. Esp his exhortation to the crowd. Need to take back anything I said about Jim Hamilton and Geoff Cross - both very impressive. Scrum fell away after Moray Low came on. Lamont is not a centre and it showed yesterday. Though Maitland had a really good game with his defensive class to the fore. Visser also put in a couple of big hits. Jacko (our one) was poor (their's was worse) ! How about Peter Horne at i/c for Wales and move Scott to 13 - apart form his woeful kicking v Ulster on Friday he (Horne)was tremendous in open play at fh ?

[funnyExiledScot]

Yes, he should. I think we need to be more ambitious with ball in hand, and I think that starts with Laidlaw, not Jackson. It was Laidlaw that box kicked almost every single ball we had (or was wrongly adjudged to have knocked the ball on). I think we need to take more chances and spread the ball wide to get more momentum. With front foot ball I think Jackson is the best 10 we have, and I think that should be our strategy against Wales. I don't think "more of the same is the right tactic".

I do see what RDW is saying. Jackson's restart wasn't great, and he sliced two clearances. Do I think we should drop him for those things, just because Weir came on and made a better job of two clearances? No. I do think though that when we have the chance to kick to touch from a penalty, giving the ball to the guy in the team that can kick the ball the furthest, Stuart Hogg, makes more than a little sense.

The fact is, just as in the England game, this was not a game for the Scottish fly half to do anything other than tackle, which Jackson did. He also played well against Italy. Had he not played well against Italy, I'd be calling for him to be dropped. I just don't see how he can be the right guy to start the game against Ireland, not get a single decent piece of front foot ball to work with, and now be dropped.

[RDW]

I just think Chunk part 2's basic skill set is far superior to Jackson's. He has a more rapid pass and a much more consistent boot. I'd also rather Weir took over kicking should Laidlaw get injured. I'm still waiting to see proof that Jackson 'can get a backline moving' at Rabbo level, nevermind international.

Basically I think Weir is a much better player. Yes Jackson deserved his place at the start of hte 6N because Weir had been out injured and was lacking game time. That is no longer the case - Weir needs to start now IMO.

[GunsGerms]

Wayne Barnes lost control in my eyes, at least six yellow card offences in the Scottish 22 but he just kept warning them, i felt pretty sorry for the Irish the Scottish just payed a negative illegal game at the break down and the ref just let them.

Ludicrous comment

It is actually kinda true, however, its not why Ireland lost and not sure it would have made much difference.

[George Carlin]

Given SJ's form, I think he'll keep Jackson starting with the Mighty Meatball on the bench. If Laidlaw has to come off, then Weir has to come on immediately as Jackson's kicking for goal is only marginally better than my one year old daughter's.

[funnyExiledScot]

To be honest it wouldn't bother me hugely. I think it would be slightly unfair on Jackson, but I've no reason to believe that Weir wouldn't do a decent job, and he's certainly a better striker of the ball with his boot.

In terms of other changes I think there's a case for looking at Sean Lamont at 13 (the alternative being Alex Dunbar rather than Max Evans obviously), but Wales have hugely physical backs so I suspect Scott Johnson will keep him in to deal with North, Cuthbert and Roberts. They are more direct than elusive, which will suit Lamont.

If John Barclay is fit he should go on the bench in place of Denton, and Euan Murray should replace Murray Low. Not sure why Low is seen as a better loosehead than Jon Welsh either - thought that was odd when Grant got sin binned.

[RDW]

Not sure why Low is seen as a better loosehead than Jon Welsh either - thought that was odd when Grant got sin binned.

Yeah - that had Frank Hadden written all over it!

[EWT Spoons]

As an aside, I thought Brown was a very effective captain yesterday. He was constantly talking to the players and leading by example. There also seems to be a real team spirit at the moment. Demonstrated especially on the back of our successful scrums, when every single player rushed in to applaud and congratulate the pack. I know a dominant scrum can be a huge physiological advantage and to see the players acknowledge the effort put in was pleasing. Simple pleasures, but it shows the lads are playing for each other.

[funnyExiledScot]

Still, even with Low at loosehead and Lamont at flanker, we had a better scrum. The job Cross did on Court was entirely unexpected!

We'll need all that and more against Wales. It would be astonishingly harsh on Harley, but were Barclay deemed fully fit I'd be tempted to use him against Wales. We really need to get a proper openside back on the pitch, and cannot afford to allow Wales so many uncontested rucks.

[Tramptastic]

I'm seeing parallels with Robinsons first six nations games and these ones not in the results or the team spirit but in the jackson-weir pick.

When Robinson came on the scene he declared his love for Godman which was met by cheers from the entire rugby community as we were sick of Parks. However in the first six nations pack, not that he did much wrong but we needed somebody who could kick a fair distance under a bit of pressure.

Here we have Jackson who maybe isn't having the best time with the boot but isn't doing much else wrong with the ball whereas Weir can put boot to ball and get us in the right places.

The difference this time is that we are actually winning so it's a pretty damn tough call as why change a winning team? Something to mull on perhaps...

[RDW]

Question – if our pack is so strong in the set piece do we not want a 10 who can boot the crap out of the ball and get us in the right part of the field to use our most potent weapon?

[George Carlin]

I am actually less fearful of the Welsh backline than the Irish one, but I'll whisper that on these boards before being accused of being defeated morally before the game even starts.

Surely both coaches will be telling their players that they cannot kick ball away and have to take it through the phases instead. That may not work in our favour but I have faith in Laidlaw mixing up play and adjusting as necessary.

Does anyone else feel that we cannot be any worse at recycling than we were against Ireland? Gives me a lot of comfort to know that we were utterly gash but kept the line intact when it mattered.

The breakdown is going to be so important. I hope to hell that Ryan is telling Johnson to reconsider the squad and add Barclay. There's two weeks gap now - plenty of time for JB to learn the lineout calls and drink a big Cup of Mental.

I personally think that Tipuric is slightly overrated and has struggled to adapt to the pace of internationals, having looked very good at club level for a long time. He'll still be a nuisance if we let him, mind.

[damage_13]

its quite simple... Scotland played Ireland as if they were re-playing England

[RuggerRadge2611]

Wales IMO should be an easier nut to crack than Ireland, they'll certainly we weaker up front.

I would worry more if Wales started Lloyd Williams instead of Phillips. As it stands I would expect Laidlaw will be licking his lips at that big numpty starting against us at Murrayfield.

[TJ1]

Question – if our pack is so strong in the set piece do we not want a 10 who can boot the crap out of the ball and get us in the right part of the field to use our most potent weapon?

Weir is so much more than this - and all round player with a fantastic boot. Its not as if Jackson is running rings round the opposition is it?

[RubyGuby]

So what I'm reading in these posts is Wales are weak up front and Tipuric is overated - Also an easier nut to crack. Mmmm?? Wales beasted the much vaunted Italian pack, Tipuric has gone from strength to strength and is keeping the Captain Warburton out of the side, which takes some doing and the easy nut to crack has not conceded a try in 200 minutes of rugby. Add to that the fact that apart from Lydiate we will be at full strength at Murrayfield (where we like going) and i think you're being a little biased. I can assure you that Wales have yet to fire, they are slowly getting there and they will go at Scotland from the start. Wales have also won 8/9 of their last 6 Nations matches - It should be an absolute belter but I'll remind you again, this is now a very strong pack with the players returning.

[RDW]

If you'd read earlier TJ you'd see me say that I think Weir is superior in every facet of play - so I agree!

[George Carlin]

Question – if our pack is so strong in the set piece do we not want a 10 who can boot the crap out of the ball and get us in the right part of the field to use our most potent weapon?

It's hard to tell RDW. I think that the reason a lot of the squeakier Welsh posters here got so excited about beating an Italian team (minus Parisse) was how well their set piece held up in the p!ssing rain in Rome. The Italian scrum folded like a panini once Castro did his pantomime villian routine so it's actually hard to know how good the Welsh set piece currently is.

Unfortunately, Howlers seems to have stumbled upon the realisation that Hibbard is actually the best hooker that they have. Something I was hoping would come to him in late March instead.

I don't know much about Coombs but Ian Evans is the most underrated home nations lock and he seems to be getting back up to speed. Hard to tell though. God bless Ryan Grant - I'm so much more confident in our scrums since he's been on. Shame that SJ loves Dougie Hall's baldy heed but MacArthur will get his chance and he's playing so well for Glasgow that I'm happy for him to remain there.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Wales big advantage is Halfpenny, not just in the loose but from the Tee, he could really punish Scotland.

To be fair Scotland also did pretty well against the Italian pack too Ruby, and we managed to weather Ireland's battering of our try line than Wales.

It's a tough one to call, but we'll know alot more when the teams are selected.

Lloyd Williams is the name I dread to see...

[RubyGuby]

Phillips will be scrum half v Scotland

[GunsGerms]

Seems like Scots are quite positive about their performance in general. I wouldnt be to be honest if I was a Scot. 9 times out of 10 the Scottish performance wouldnt have been good enough to beat anyone as Ireland completely dominated every aspect of the match bar the scoreboard.

Not trying to have a dig because Scotland won fair and square and a win is a win but I think for the players Scotland have it was a really poor show from them. I expected more.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

Gutsy win for Scotland. Ireland were poor and seem a little desperate to me. SOB lucky not to be yellow carded for his continual cheating at the break-down.

Scotland must start as favourites at home to the Welsh.

[100%beefy]

Phillips will be scrum half v Scotland

I honestly hope not...woudl liek to see a faster service and MP as impact

[George Carlin]

So what I'm reading in these posts is Wales are weak up front and Tipuric is overated - Also an easier nut to crack. Mmmm?? Wales beasted the much vaunted Italian pack, Tipuric has gone from strength to strength and is keeping the Captain Warburton out of the side, which takes some doing and the easy nut to crack has not conceded a try in 200 minutes of rugby. Add to that the fact that apart from Lydiate we will be at full strength at Murrayfield (where we like going) and i think you're being a little biased. I can assure you that Wales have yet to fire, they are slowly getting there and they will go at Scotland from the start. Wales have also won 8/9 of their last 6 Nations matches - It should be an absolute belter but I'll remind you again, this is now a very strong pack with the players returning.

Woah there Ruby son. Nobody is 'misunderestimating' the task that lies ahead of us.

I think instead we're just getting our head around the challenge. Remember that the early stages of the tournament revolved around Wales' injury problems but a lot of these gaps have been filled now and so we're trying to work out where we all are. Any victory over an Italian front row is to be celebrated and Adam Jones is looking as fine as ever. As mentioned above, Hibbard is quality and we all would say so.

That diddy Tipuric, though....

[TJ1]

Phillips will be scrum half v Scotland

If he is the chances of Scotland winning are increased

[RuggerRadge2611]

Phillips will be scrum half v Scotland

If he is the chances of Scotland winning are increased

Agreed,

I have to diasgree with GC about Tips though, although calling him a diddy made me laugh. I think the Welsh backrow are deceptively strong. Jones has been outstanding, Tipuric is basicly a Ross Rennie clone and seems to get away with murder at the breakdown and Faletau is the kind of player I though Vernon would become, not so much a wrecking machine like SOB, Beattie or Morgan but more of an Elusive jinking no.8 who carries with guile rather than power.

It's the tight 5, and in particular at lock where I think we'll have the advantage in the pack. I think Jones will provide Grant a soilid test but Grant did ok against Castro and Cole, who I think currently are better scrummagers and Cross dealt remarkabley well with Court.

But at lock Gray and Hamilton have been outstanding in the last 2 games. Despite Sale being gash Gray's breakdown work has improved a lot and so has his tackle count. He has now learned that you don't have to be carrying all the time to be having a good game and has got stuck into the dark arts very well.

I do think our Scrum suffered a wee bit after Ford went off mind you.

[TJ1]

Scotland certainly got the upper hand in the scrums against Ireland - who did in the wales / ireland game? I don't remember.

[100%beefy]

Scotland certainly got the upper hand in the scrums against Ireland - who did in the wales / ireland game? I don't remember.

Ireland

[TJ1]

Scotland certainly got the upper hand in the scrums against Ireland - who did in the wales / ireland game? I don't remember.

Ireland

Well in that case I can have some realistic hope Scotland will give wales a good humping in the scrums.

[Tattie Scones RRN]

So what I'm reading in these posts is Wales are weak up front and Tipuric is overated - Also an easier nut to crack. Mmmm?? Wales beasted the much vaunted Italian pack, Tipuric has gone from strength to strength and is keeping the Captain Warburton out of the side, which takes some doing and the easy nut to crack has not conceded a try in 200 minutes of rugby. Add to that the fact that apart from Lydiate we will be at full strength at Murrayfield (where we like going) and i think you're being a little biased. I can assure you that Wales have yet to fire, they are slowly getting there and they will go at Scotland from the start. Wales have also won 8/9 of their last 6 Nations matches - It should be an absolute belter but I'll remind you again, this is now a very strong pack with the players returning.

As highlighted below, without their star player.

Against a poor Italian team and a real pish poor French one. Well done

Completely understand that you have players returning (who won't be fully International match fit) but remember this......wait until we have more than 30% possession. Then you'll know what Scotland are all about

Seriously though Ruby, who knows what will happen. If Scotland defend like yesterday, Wales will find it hard to break through. If Scotland win more ball and use the back three, tries will be scored. If we have a decent ref, the game should be without incident.

All if's though.

A game resembling 2010 would be nice though with the result going the other way of course!

[100%beefy]

Scotland certainly got the upper hand in the scrums against Ireland - who did in the wales / ireland game? I don't remember.

Ireland

Well in that case I can have some realistic hope Scotland will give wales a good humping in the scrums.

Agreed but they have stepped up massively against France and were somewhere near their best against Italy as Jenkins turned it up...but Scottish scrum is a powerhouse and it will be a titanic battle..lineout is where Scotland look most potent and whereas ours is pants so expect a lot of touch kicking

[RuggerRadge2611]

Scotland certainly got the upper hand in the scrums against Ireland - who did in the wales / ireland game? I don't remember.

Ireland

Well in that case I can have some realistic hope Scotland will give wales a good humping in the scrums.

Not entirely likely, Jenkins was beans in that 1st game against Ireland and Healy was all over Jones like a cheap suit.

Grant is a more powerful Scrummager than Jenkins and we didn't have to deal with Healy.

Since the 1st game Jenkins has shaken the rust of pretty well and Caused Castro problems in Rome, although Grant did the same, perhaps it's a reflection on Castro's fall from grace rather than the abilities of Jenkins or Grant.


I reckon parity in the Scrums is a fair shout at this stage.

[RubyGuby]

The welsh scrum will have 3 different players from the Ireland game. If you judge wales by that game then you will be making a big mistake, Hibbard, Ryan and AWJ bring a lot lot more to the party and with Warburton on the bench we have some decent power and guile

[George Carlin]

Phillips will be scrum half v Scotland

If he is the chances of Scotland winning are increased

Agreed,

I have to diasgree with GC about Tips though, although calling him a diddy made me laugh. I think the Welsh backrow are deceptively strong. Jones has been outstanding, Tipuric is basicly a Ross Rennie clone and seems to get away with murder at the breakdown and Faletau is the kind of player I though Vernon would become, not so much a wrecking machine like SOB, Beattie or Morgan but more of an Elusive jinking no.8 who carries with guile rather than power.

It's the tight 5, and in particular at lock where I think we'll have the advantage in the pack. I think Jones will provide Grant a soilid test but Grant did ok against Castro and Cole, who I think currently are better scrummagers and Cross dealt remarkabley well with Court.

But at lock Gray and Hamilton have been outstanding in the last 2 games. Despite Sale being gash Gray's breakdown work has improved a lot and so has his tackle count. He has now learned that you don't have to be carrying all the time to be having a good game and has got stuck into the dark arts very well.

I do think our Scrum suffered a wee bit after Ford went off mind you.

I was hoping it was obvious that I was being tongue in cheek for the obvious reason that the Welsh loosies are excellent.

I worried about who was going to fill Lydiate's massive shoes but Jones has stepped in impressively.

I was only kidding about that diddy master fetcher Tips. Anyone who's watched his club form knows he is playing better than Captain Fantastic at the moment. It just took Howlers an embarrassing length of time to realise it.

[Morgannwg]

Gutsy win for Scotland. Ireland were poor and seem a little desperate to me. SOB lucky not to be yellow carded for his continual cheating at the break-down.

Scotland must start as favourites at home to the Welsh.

I know you're an anti-welsh who supports anything playing Wales, but Scotland start as favourites based on what exactly?

[funnyExiledScot]

Question – if our pack is so strong in the set piece do we not want a 10 who can boot the crap out of the ball and get us in the right part of the field to use our most potent weapon?

Weir is so much more than this - and all round player with a fantastic boot. Its not as if Jackson is running rings round the opposition is it?

The point I was making before, and I think it's what RDW is alluding to, it that it frankly doesn't matter whether we have the best fly half to grace the game, if he's only going to receive three passes in the entire match and his role is reduced to tackling and kicking the ball under pressure, then you may as well go with the player who kicks well under pressure.

Unless SJ and Ryan plan to change tack, or feel that Scotland will have more ball against Wales than they managed against Ireland, who frankly cares who plays at 10!?

I thought Jackson did well against Italy. Some nice breaks and created a nice try. Clearly if the Wales game is to be more like the Ireland and England games, then a more robust option at 10 is Weir. Bigger boot and bigger belly. Yes, he can spin a ball, but if Scotland are going to go on the attack against Wales, I see no reason to drop Jackson.

[TJ1]

I agree that Jackson has done little wrong but I think Weir is the better player and he certainly had a positive effect when he came on

[RubyGuby]

Weir is your own version of Dan Parks

[Imperialbigdave]

Weir is your own version of Dan Parks

Dan Parks is our own version of Dan Parks... and thank goodness that chapter is closed.

[TJ1]

Weir reminds me of Craig Chalmers. He is adamn sitre better than Parks. He masterminded the demolition of the england Saxons by scotland A last year

[Metal Tiger]

Gutsy win for Scotland. Ireland were poor and seem a little desperate to me. SOB lucky not to be yellow carded for his continual cheating at the break-down.

Scotland must start as favourites at home to the Welsh.

I know you're an anti-welsh who supports anything playing Wales, but Scotland start as favourites based on what exactly?

Ireland beat Wales, Scotland beat Ireland so that coupled with home fixture makes them favourites.

Very slim logic I grant you.

[Sponsored content]