Heineken cup v super 15

Which is the best competition?

For me it's the Heino. You have to do well in the group stages in the run up to Christmas (with the implications for weather and pitches) interspersed with your best players going off to play the AI. Then the knockout stages come after your best players have done the 6N. These are games with completely different requirements, harder pitches, better weather and one leg ties only, so you might be away in the quarters and semis.

In other words to win this competition you need a strong squad, the ability to play in the full range of weather the NH season has to offer, to win away from home and have an adaptable game plan.

I appreciate that away games are a massive feature in super 15 as well given the distances travelled. However, the games are grouped nicely with a run up of games with increasing intensity. The best players in the world are on show, but in soulless franchises. The full range of cultures of 6 ancient nations infest the Heineken.

For a connoisseur of rugby you can tour matches in the HC and have Italian food, French wine, Irish Stout, Welsh Ale, Scottish Whisky and English...erm...lager?

What are your thoughts?

Definitely the Heineken cup, it is probably the long distances involved but the passion in the heineken cup is so much more than the super 15. I also don't think that the supposed greater skill level really exists in the super 15 as everyone from the southern hemisphere says it does. For me I'd rather see a HC match any day over a super 15 match.

Agreed. I'd like to see the super 15 teams trying to play their sacharine brand of rugby on a cold wet November day on the Rec, with a proper ref.

But it is very good as an exhibition though, did you see crusaders vs sharks a twickenham, incredible match.

Ive always preferred Northern Hemisphere rugby in any kind of comparison. 6 Nations over 3 Nations. Heinaken over super 15 etc.
Ive never really understood why their players are always better than our though, one reason I was told by my cousin is training.
He lived in south Africa for 2 years ages 13-15. Over there the weather is much milder so its not so much of a problem to train, its quite nice in a mild enviroment, on the other hand over here when its wazzing down with raid and freezing cold its not much fun to improve your game.

They live to play rugby. We live to drink and rugby is our trade off for health/sanity purposes.

Im sorry for me s15 is better purely because as a domestic competition it has laid the foundations for each countries national side to win world cups,

everyone moans about the defence in s15, the reason why it looks bad it because the pace with which the game is played down there is phenomenal, it doesn't matter how organised your defence is you cant defend against quick ball with forwards in the line, the fact that every player in the s15 from 1-15 want to play with this quick intensity results in quicker ball and more line breaks, NH players either by choice or by the way they are coached are more settled in a slower game using physicality to break the gain line, guarantee you there will only be one NH side in the semi's of WC

Definitely Heineken Cup. It is such a difficult competition to win. If you don't win your group you are almost certainly out and then it's knock-out, but because winning the group is so important, almost every game is played at knock-out intensity.

Personally for me it is the HC, i do rate the S15 but the HC (in my opinion) offers a wider range of styles than the S15. THat may be due to the fact the HC is played in sections, and scross differnet times in the season, or possibly due to the do or die mentality in the HC.

Definitely Super Rugby, faster more skillfull better coached and better to watch.

The northern Hemisphere needs a kick up the backside, re organise the fixtures list so that competitions like the Heineken Cup are not seperated and interspersed by leagues and internationals. Their is too little times for teams to gel into winning teams because the clubs and regions loose players to internationals too often.

If the NH want to take the RWC more seriously they need to A look at playing in better weather and B organise the season in a logical way.

Heineken Cup, then internationals then domestic leagues.

For me its the Heiney, just because of the emotion and atmosphere it generates. As others have said, this is partly because you can't really afford to lose any games, even in the group - for example this year, Tigers drew at home with Perpignan, and that was basically that. We managed to scrape through the group, but then had easily the hardest quarter-final - Leinster away

Admittedly, I haven't watched a great deal of Super 15, so I perhaps am not qualified to judge. Also the team I support doesn't play in the S15, which lessens the whole emotion job because to be honest, I really don't care who wins it. Perhaps if i watch it a bit more and start to really support one of teams I might change my mind... but I doubt it, I like floodlit games in the middle of winter too much this year at Scarlets was fantastic.

maesteg, trouble with that viewpoint is you're prioritising international rugby and judging the two competitions in terms of how they prepare players for the world cup - in my mind, and I'm pretty sure lots of people would agree with me, club rugby is at least as important.

I would rather see Tigers win the HC than see England win the World Cup. There, I said it.

Ah, it's an old argument really but I'm going to have to go for the Heineken Cup.

Every year in the Super 15 the same teams play each other. Even more so that the emphasis is on local derbies. In 2009, Ulster and Bath- two former winners of the tournament- met for the first time in that competition. Your experience as a fan is different every year; you meet different teams, who pose different challenges from different parts of Europe.

That for me underscores the vitality of the HC in comparison to the Super15- there's always a new ground to visit when you're following your team, always new experiences to be had. Ever seen an Aussie derby in Super Rugby? The teams know each other inside out. It's a dull, cagey affair.

What I'm talking about here is variety- that's what makes the fans experience in the NH better for me.

The main problem with this kind of discussion is that people invariably vote for the thing they grew up with. How many NH fans voted Super15 and vice versa. I'm sure many of us see very little of the other comp and just parrot stuff we have read/heard. I love rugby but have seen almost no NH rugby other than tests.

NZ rugby has been strong for a very long time. This was based on its domestic competition the NPC which is not played in the summer/early autumn on hot days and hard grounds. Super Rugby is new and is not the heart of NZ rugby. The real passion in NZ comes when Cantebury play Otago for the Ranfurly shield or games like that.

So the guts of it is that I prefer Super rugby because I was born in NZ and that's the depth of the argument.

I wonder did anyone not choose their own competitions? I will easily admit that the Trinations swipes the floor with what I consider to be one of the poorest tournaments in modern rugby - the 6 Nations. However Heineken Cup bests Super Rugby for me.

I seldom watch Non test Rugby,but if S15 is so poor why do the NH always want there best players?

I enjoy them both. Before I die I want to see a Bulls game at Loftus, it looks like one of the best club atmospheres around.

It's interesting the question isn't Magners vs s15 or AP vs s15. I take it we all agree there is no meaningful comparison there.

Emack2, I think you miss the point entirely. Its not about which has a higher standard of play but merely which is more enjoyable.

Yes S14 players like Dan Carter, Doug Howlett, Jean de Villiers, Rocky Elsom, and Ruan Pienaar have got game time in the Heineken Cup. But surely its this variety that makes it exciting.

Oh, the standard of rugby in the Super 15 is much better emack. But I know which one I'd rather watch. There's the feeling of sort of... deja vu with Super Rugby. It's better- but it's rarely as exciting. There's not the feeling that one defeat and it can be the end of a teams season, the HC has that even at the group stage.

Watched the Crusaders vSharks game,and from what I gather from 606 posts.It is the style of play rather than the quality people object too.Rather a
ground out 9-6 win by 3 penalties or the odd drop to 2 penalties ditto.Because of the travel element S 15 is much more predictable,and of course a 33-31 result with lots of tries by both sides is totally uninteresting?Since it is a given
SH sides have no defence,and a n All Black side certainly did`nt complete two recent european tours without conceding a try here did they?Of course the
Heineken has more of a knock out flavour than S15 too.But I do follow S15 as a matter of interest and catch the odd one,but times of matches are not convenient.

I don't object to the style of play. Although the feeling teams can score from anywhere kind of detracts from the tension. You like to see teams work hard for their scores.

They're better than us but... something about SH rugby just leaves me cold. I much prefer the Currie Cup and the ITM Cup to Super Rugby.

Notch wrote:I much prefer the Currie Cup and the ITM Cup to Super Rugby.

I agree. In fact I bet many Southern Hemisphere fans agree.

I will make the following observations the S15 makes a sound interim stage between Provincial and Test Rugby,something NH lacks and is a good thing.I t has become unwieldy .Australia can barely sustain 4 sides lett alone 5,the Rebels Barbarian side has been a complete mess up.Argentina should have at least one side instead from 2012. The old NPC/Currie Cup I agree with traditional rivalries has more bite .Sad to see arbitary dividing of ITM sides in 2011 Tournament.As a matter of interest is the old Inter-Island match still played.?

not for a very long time

I think that 2 NH sides may make the semi finals of the WC and moreover in NZ. If they do and NZ fail to win the SH commentators will say:

"the HC is a brutal affair, pure knockout rugby. That prepares the NH players (with the able assistance of our best players and their experience) for the knockout stages of the WC far better than the super 15"

But if only one NH side goes through and NZ win "the higher skill level of SH domestic rugby shone through in the knockout stages. The idea that the HC prepares players (with the assistance of our best players and their experience of course) better for knockout rugby has been proven a fallacy..."

And in that they are no different to hacks anywhere.

As an aside since THE most successful Heineken Cup winner Toulouse,is French.Is the Top14 a better standard of Rugby than the Jeff or Magnes League.Or Just a case of buying success like the top clubs in the Premier league in soccer.Win more trophies,get more money,spend more money for bigger and better imports.At least the S15 mostly relies on home grown talent and supports the national side.[Please NO South Sea poaching comments NH are as guilty as Sh in that now].

The Tri Nations is far better than the Six nations.However I think the heineken is better than the Super 15.I haven't seen a Super 15 game this year that has matched the intensity of Leinster V Toulouse.

witchonapig wrote:I enjoy them both. Before I die I want to see a Bulls game at Loftus, it looks like one of the best club atmospheres around.

I myself am not a Bulls supporter, but I can promise you that as far as passion, loyalty and atmosphere goes, a match at Loftus will definitely be one of the best experiences you will have at a rugby stadium.

As far as the cmparisons go between Heineken Cup and Super 15, once again it is a subjective debate.

I enjoy Super Rugby quite a lot it has a very brass entertaining style, with the best players in the World playing in it.

Heineken Cup is also exciting teams throughout Europe facing each other, nothing better than that I say.

Glas a du wrote:Which is the best competition?
and English...erm...lager?

To me glas a du that makes it a much better topic........the obvious answer is Heineken.

Yeah, that lager comment was over the line.

Theakstons, Adnams, Abbot. There are plenty of examples of uniquely english contributions to the pantheon of beers and ales.

witchonapig wrote:Yeah, that lager comment was over the line.

Theakstons, Adnams, Abbot. There are plenty of examples of uniquely english contributions to the pantheon of beers and ales.

I know, I was being facetious and going for a rise

Another supporter of the HC here, as others have said I think it is the greater intensity that makes the difference for me. That's not to say I don't enjoy S15, we usually get about 6 games a week over here and I really enjoy the SA ones, both the Stormers & Bulls seem to play at a greater intensity than the other sides and still with a very high skill level.

Also agree with what someone posted about playing the HC in better weather. It's a whole other debate but I think all NH Rugby Union would improve as a whole if the season was played at a different time of year. However, I'm a bit torn because I could never imagine the 6N starting any other time than Feb.

Interesting that people say about lack of intensity in S15 compared to HC.Just read a review of the Blues vStormers match.Stormers winning a somewhat contrversial match by two points. Stormers and Bulls ,playing a more set piece game than NZ/AUS sides but apparently Blues were better at both Scrum and lineout.Judging by the injury lists of the Blues and Crusaders it certainly does`nt lack that.

Today's final was described by Ian Robertson as one of the best games of first class rugby he'd ever seen. 50+ points, 6 tries, in the most important match in the NH. Pure class.

Watched two Super Rugby games today and one Heineken Cup game. Zero contest.

Met Rava today Notch. Fine ambassador for Ulster. Well have to meet up sometime. I'd also like to meet some of the other Ulster regs. Fancy an exchange trip for next year's ML matches?

Maybe. Next year I'm going to be really busy with my Masters, so i'm going to wait and see what my workload is like before committing myself to any trips.

If you come to Ravenhill you will be extended every hospitality, unlike your team for 80 minutes!

There we are then. Perhaps you can make the return trip the year after. I can't promise the Scarlets fans will behave appropriately during the match. Before and after they'll be fine!

Todays game proves how much of a better competition the heineken is compared to the S15 it is now a proven FACT!

End of!

"todays game proves how much better Heineken is etc." RUBBISH.One swallow does not make a summer,brilliant game by Leinster and Northampton.
Lots of tries just like a S15 match.Across the World the Crusaders limped into town to play a must win match versus the Chiefs.The squad they fielded was a
shadow one.No Home game advantage for them this year because of the earthquake.There full strength squad boasts 16 All Blacks of various vintage and a Samoan International.This was a must win situation 4 games too go,two of them versus franchise leaders.They needed points and time to get the wounded back on the park.They had two advantages a pack,lead by Richie McCaw,and Dan Carter playing the full 80 for more or less the first time this season.The Match was run by a Dan Carter Master class,strangle them up front,kick for territory.Apply pressure wait for ill discipline for penalties and drops.What a boring match a penalty fest by both sides,a REAL match just like you love a typical NH Heineken fixture.The two comps. are played differently under different conditions one is no better or worse than the other.

Emack2, I see your point. But European rugby is like French wine, you have to have had a mouthfull of vinegar to truly appreciate a Chateau Lafite.

emack2 wrote:"todays game proves how much better Heineken is etc." RUBBISH.One swallow does not make a summer,brilliant game by Leinster and Northampton.
Lots of tries just like a S15 match.Across the World the Crusaders limped into town to play a must win match versus the Chiefs.The squad they fielded was a
shadow one.No Home game advantage for them this year because of the earthquake.There full strength squad boasts 16 All Blacks of various vintage and a Samoan International.This was a must win situation 4 games too go,two of them versus franchise leaders.They needed points and time to get the wounded back on the park.They had two advantages a pack,lead by Richie McCaw,and Dan Carter playing the full 80 for more or less the first time this season.The Match was run by a Dan Carter Master class,strangle them up front,kick for territory.Apply pressure wait for ill discipline for penalties and drops.What a boring match a penalty fest by both sides,a REAL match just like you love a typical NH Heineken fixture.The two comps. are played differently under different conditions one is no better or worse than the other.

It isnt about how many All Blacks are inn your squad, it is about how committed your players are to the cause, and so often when i watch southern hemisphere rugby the players just don't seem to be nearly as committed as northern hemisphere ones. This point was proved perfectly at the end of yesterdays match with the utter despair on the faces of the Northampton players and the complete jubilation on the faces of the Leinster ones.

I will admit that the current Crusaders squad is an exceptional one, Watching them demolish the sharks at Twickenham was a joy to behold, but other teams in the S15 just don't seem as good to watch, like the Lions, Highlanders and western force. In those teams there are still some exceptional players but they never seem willing enough to do whatever it takes to win a match.

How many fans of other teams were there yesterday? Loads. Cardiff was buzzing yesterday, absolutely buzzing. It was almost like a 6n match.

I think the Millenium stadium was almost full it was an incredible atmosphere.

Mr Scotland, you want to watch a bit more of the Highlanders then. They hbe been a revelation.

Yesterdays game was pretty good, let down by some woeful defending at times. That same line is trotted out about Super 15 all the time, but it still produces the best players on the world.

Well done to Leinster though, great comeback!

All the times I have seen the Highlanders they have been woeful but in fairness havent seen them in a while, but although there is an elite of about 5 teams in the S15 the rest do seem to be below standard.

The Super 15 usually there are 3 SA,4NZ,and maybe3 Aus franchises are Very good,or good.The remaining 5 teams struggle most of the time. BUT teams like Lions,Cheetahs,Highlanders can beat anyone on there day.Now I have know knowledge of the Heineken,but I will guess.There is some sort of seeding system.just like the RWC.So all the likely suspects don`t meet at early stages and spoil the show.A RWC group stage where Aus,Nz,SA,England and France chosen by lot instead of seedings.Would really mess with the organizers mind.So it is no more a genuine cup comp is it?.The Heineken Cup qualifiers are no more of equal standard than the S15 ones.AS to the High landers after years of propping up the NZ franchise.Without really many big names.they have been a revelation winning by hard nosed grit NH style.They have also beaten the Bulls twice in 3 years,once was Bulls first defeat at Loftus Versfeld for a very long time.Not many NH sides would achieve that.

IMO there is only the Crusaders and Blues, Reds, Bulls and Stormers, these are the only teams that have a chance of winning the competition no other teams seem close on the evidence this season.