Can Ireland beat France?

First topic message reminder :

With France having lost three games in a row (Italy, Wales, England), they are now on the road to face Ireland.

One side of the argument suggests that France are "due a win" while the other says that they are on the ropes and a new look Irish side can add to their misery.

Can Ireland beat this French team?

Taylor- expect tries today. As I said. But it doesnt mean much. All it means is that Italy are tosh. Which they are

The Great Aukster wrote:The team are consistently told to go out and express themselves, or as Mick Doyle would have said "give it a lash". This "game plan" has worked on occasion but against teams who are playing structured rugby it generally isn't successful. A good litmus test of a coach is comparing the results of the first half to the second half (Ireland first): Scotland 3-0, 5-12; England 0-6,6-6; Wales 23-3,7-19; Argentina 24-9,22-15; South Africa 12-3, 0-13; New Zealand 0-29,0-31; New Zealand 10-9, 9-13. So only once in the last seven games has Ireland done better in the second half than the first (and they still lost that one). Coaches who know what is going on can see what their opponents are doing and change tack at half time - Kidney has proven incapable of this.

Yet again Ireland win the first half 13-3 and lose the second 0-10.

Kidney has only one game left, so hopefully the trend will be broken soon!

They scored 4 tries because Italy were appalling; even then, two came from a length of the field intercept by Hogg and a highly dubious bit of midfield piracy by Lamont. Scotland then churned out among the most negative pair of games that I've ever seen, particularly given the quality at their disposal. Anyone who thinks that they have been an overwhelmingly positive force hasn't been watching lately.

no

i agree that scotland wereplayign deliberate anti rugby - relying on a dogged defense and pens to stay in the game, but winning ugly is still winning. What annoyed me was that in thelast 5 v Wales they put it through the hands in the Welsh 22 at pace and looked deadly

Overview of Ireland in the Six Nations so far.

Could'a against England
Should'a against Scotland
Would'a against France

Jesus, we're brilliant! I'm really looking forward to our last game. There's a real possibility now that it won't be a Did'a game. But some player or coach will still come out with the beautiful lines about 'sensing things are just going to click sometime soon'.

Yeah? Well the train is gone. It's left the station. Good timing on the Championship prep work for all. And now it'll all come good in April and May when the other sides are on their holidays? Fan-tas-tique!

Hopefully in their next game they're gonna

Biltong wrote:Hopefully in their next game they're gonna

Either that or 'didna' Bil

gregortree wrote:

Biltong wrote:Hopefully in their next game they're gonna

Either that or 'didna' Bil

Didna or kidnea?

Or Kidna Didna

mystiroakey wrote:Taylor- expect tries today. As I said. But it doesnt mean much. All it means is that Italy are tosh. Which they are

Well, youre right about a try being scored, but probably not as you expected...and it was only 50 minutes. This was my point. England should have scored several. This failure to get over the line is compelling. Never mind the close efforts. Finishing is a skill. and presently its very low quality.

Taylorman wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Taylor- expect tries today. As I said. But it doesnt mean much. All it means is that Italy are tosh. Which they are

Well, youre right about a try being scored, but probably not as you expected...and it was only 50 minutes. This was my point. England should have scored several. This failure to get over the line is compelling. Never mind the close efforts. Finishing is a skill. and presently its very low quality.

yep guilty as charged on that one taylor.

shocking stuff....

mystiroakey wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Taylor- expect tries today. As I said. But it doesnt mean much. All it means is that Italy are tosh. Which they are

Well, youre right about a try being scored, but probably not as you expected...and it was only 50 minutes. This was my point. England should have scored several. This failure to get over the line is compelling. Never mind the close efforts. Finishing is a skill. and presently its very low quality.

yep guilty as charged on that one taylor.

shocking stuff....

Apologies...didnt mean to rub that one in, I enjoyed that one a lot more than the others I saw recently. Next week is a good showcase for the tournament. Nice when theres a dramatic finale...Good luck to your side Mysti.

Sorry folks but I have to try and rescue this thread as it is the only one that is discussing Ireland and is drifting into the England - Wales debate.

I don't think that Kidney is going anywhere. If anyone thinks that the IRFU are going to start looking for a new coach just 2 years out form the WC they are deluded. Although with this bunch you never know.

One positive to take form this year's 6n is the fact that there have been a raft of new players gaining international experience, whether enforced or otherwise, mainly the former. As Kidney pointed out, this will leave us with far more strength in depth than we have had this year. With the performances of the likes of Jackson and Marshall as well as Ryan and McCarthy, it looks like we are starting to shore up what were areas of concern previously.

We have to accept that we are in a period of transition which, when taken in context, shows that performances this year have not been too bad. All of the games have been close, the sense of relief from England, after coming away with a slim victory from Dublin, was palpable. The weather conditions in that game and against the French did not do us any favours either, given the opposition.

While the manner in which we capitulated late in games was annoying, with a little more cohesion, we could have been playing for the championship next week, if not the Grand Slam.

I think Ireland will emerge from this season in a much stronger position than previously, regardless of what happens in Rome next week and maybe this time we will have a proper build up to the next World Cup.

Forgive my optimism.

P.S. I've been an irregular contributor here but, as is the case with our team, since my previous visits there seems be a dearth of Irish posters. Or am I imagining it?

That's a very Rose tinted view. I agree with some of it but we were a million miles away from a championship or grand slam game. Not scoring after 55 minutes in any game is criminal.

This isn't an anti-Deccie rant, he has been unfortunate with injuries but the fact we had to rely on a bandaged together 33/34 year old coming back into the frets on Saturday is testament to our 'depth'.

We were told for years that the 6N wasn't the place to experiment and then we go and do it. It was the right call but Marshall and Jackson shouldn't have been making debuts. They should have been capped in the autumn, bedded in with a strong core around them.

I don't think kidney will continue as I don't see how the IRFU can spin it posititvely. Our play and results have been on a downward spiral since 2010 and show no signs of stopping. Yes, we are in transition but the reality is this transition should have started immediately after the RWC and not 18 months later. 2 years is plenty of time for a new coach and I would leave it with Ruddock in the interim.we have seen how successful England have been with a simple game plan, executed well. No reason why Ruddock can't introduce something similar in the interim.

The summer tour will be a watershed. We will be without some lions and hopefully we can begin to assess our depth properly. The priority for the new coach has to be translating the promise of youth like Henshaw, Marshall, Jackson, Marmion, Gilroy, Zebo, Madigan, Henderson into the international game.

When you consider the likes of Etzebeth and Launchberry have excelled aftr being thrown in, I would hope we could trust our young guys in a similar fashion

Agree Stand. 2 years is plenty of time. Action needs to be taken pretty quickly though... it's been dragging on to long now. Those wins in the AIs probably created a false sense of security (or averted a crisis) but the impression I get is that a massive majority want to see him replaced.

captain carrantuohil wrote:They scored 4 tries because Italy were appalling; even then, two came from a length of the field intercept by Hogg and a highly dubious bit of midfield piracy by Lamont. Scotland then churned out among the most negative pair of games that I've ever seen, particularly given the quality at their disposal. Anyone who thinks that they have been an overwhelmingly positive force hasn't been watching lately.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I'm embarrassed that an Irish player was MOTM when they were in the same pitch as Picamoles. RTE are playing this as some sort of triumph. Jesus wept into his Coco Pops

Yeah, Picamoles is exactly the type of player Ireland have been missing.

Yup made 5 times as many metres as Heaslip, whos been an embarressment as captain quite frankly. What an atrocious decision by Kidney to strip BOD of the captaincy.

The only positive about this year 6N was, as said above, we've managed to bring more young players through which should stand us in good stead come the RWC which needs to be the focus now because we wont be winning the 6N or triple crown anytime soon.

As a side it looks like we are hitting rock bottom, becoming a wooden spoon calibre side and if so that may be a good thing. Put the golden generation era in the cupboard and start building a new team from scratch. No bagggage or comparisons to the previous years. Accept we are shoite and try and improve game on game with young players rather than keep beating a dead horse.

BOD is the greatest ever and deserved to go out far better than this.

Standulstermen wrote:That's a very Rose tinted view. I agree with some of it but we were a million miles away from a championship or grand slam game. Not scoring after 55 minutes in any game is criminal.

This isn't an anti-Deccie rant, he has been unfortunate with injuries but the fact we had to rely on a bandaged together 33/34 year old coming back into the frets on Saturday is testament to our 'depth'.

We were told for years that the 6N wasn't the place to experiment and then we go and do it. It was the right call but Marshall and Jackson shouldn't have been making debuts. They should have been capped in the autumn, bedded in with a strong core around them.

I don't think kidney will continue as I don't see how the IRFU can spin it posititvely. Our play and results have been on a downward spiral since 2010 and show no signs of stopping. Yes, we are in transition but the reality is this transition should have started immediately after the RWC and not 18 months later. 2 years is plenty of time for a new coach and I would leave it with Ruddock in the interim.we have seen how successful England have been with a simple game plan, executed well. No reason why Ruddock can't introduce something similar in the interim.

The summer tour will be a watershed. We will be without some lions and hopefully we can begin to assess our depth properly. The priority for the new coach has to be translating the promise of youth like Henshaw, Marshall, Jackson, Marmion, Gilroy, Zebo, Madigan, Henderson into the international game.

When you consider the likes of Etzebeth and Launchberry have excelled aftr being thrown in, I would hope we could trust our young guys in a similar fashion

If Deccie goes, isn't the obvious candidate at the moment Joe Schmidt? How would Ireland fans feel about that?

Or is the intention to do a big sweep and invite dozens of potentials to interview. How do people think it will go?

I would be very surprised if he was replaced at this stage, given the nature of the beast. The IRFU are like the proverbial super tanker taking ten miles to make a turn.

Taking each game of this championship so far we beat Wales, were ridiculously generous against Scotland, a six point defeat to a well organised but limited England and a draw with France which we should have won. All with a squad that got more depleted as the weeks wore on. With fewer injuries we could have won any or all of these games. We are competing and if the likes of England are the best in the NH at the moment then we don't have too much complain about, all things considered.

For a side in transition, that is not too bad in my book. I'm not blowing smoke up Kidney's rear end by any means (I'm from Leinster) and I agree that general performances over the last two years have been very unsatisfactory. But I'm not going to ignore what I see as a decent few seasons ahead given what we've seen this year.

What NH side isnt in Transition mank?

What does that mean. We all seem to be in constant transition...

The thing with Kidney is that none of the young players would have got a run was it not for injuries. He made a rod for his back picking O'Gara for the autumn friendlies when he could have given a young 10 some time off the bench so he didn't have to throw someone in against Scotland. We have gone backwards every year. In the last 18 months Kidney's wining record is something like 32%.

I can accept mixed results when we are in transition, but defeats against a dreadful Scottish and two consecutive draws against possibly the worst French outfit since the 1950s in not acceptable. Kidney hasn't got a clue. His selections even before this championship, especially the Paddy Wallace in New Zealand fiasco, or his treatment of Mike Ross in the autumn show a man utterly out of his depth. If Ruddock is interim coach then fine. But we cannot write off the summer tour when we could have so many of our main players available. Let's face it, we won't have many Lions at this rate.

Ireland have Bowe, Sexton, Ferris and OConell out among others, they were poor against Eng but only lost by 6 points, they grasped a defeat and a draw from the jaws of victory in their last 2 games. Now however, they have to go to a resurgent Italy with a depleted side. Time to start again next season with a new coaching team and hopefully some key players returning.

mystiroakey wrote:What NH side isnt in Transition mank?

What does that mean. We all seem to be in constant transition...

Some more than others. Wales, Scotland Italy and yes even England seem to have settled sides and relative experience in most positions. More so than the likes of France or Ireland.

How they are performing is another matter.

We have had a steady slide in our standards in recent years.

2009 - Won 5 out of 5
2010 - Won 3 out of 5
2011 - Won 3 out of 5
2012 - Won 2 out of 5
2013 - Won 1 out of 4 so far

The margins are so small. The same pre planned subsitutions that we see game after game. The poor man management that heaps pressure on the team. The constant capitulation in the second half.

You can't win all the time. But you have to at least meet certain targets if you want a new contract.

In any business it would be a remarkable decision to award a new contract to a man who does not have the support of the shareholders (fans) and who failed to match up to certain expected standards.

I would bet my bottom dollar that Mike Ruddock will take over from Kidney. It would be a relatively small cost for the IRFU as he is already an IRFU employee. He is already our U20 coach and achieved our highest ever placing at an U20 JWC.

His club team (Lansdowne RFC) are 14 points clear at the top of the All Ireland League ratcheting up 11 wins out of 13 matches achieveing 7 bonus points along the way.

He has coached one of the provinces and won a Six Nations Grandslam.

It would be a conservative move to appoint Ruddock and I'd like to think we will consider other options.

But on paper the move makes sense. Ruddock to get a contract that expires at the end of the 2015 RWC. Needs either a 6 Nations title or a RWC Semi Final in the next 2 years to get a new deal.

NZ are never ever in Transition..

why?

because in a way they allways are.. (constantly adding players, constant evolotion, constant blooding)- never hitting major lows because of it

Its about time the rest of us stopped using excuses and starting using that philosphy!

Too True.

mankiaow wrote:I would be very surprised if he was replaced at this stage, given the nature of the beast. The IRFU are like the proverbial super tanker taking ten miles to make a turn.

Taking each game of this championship so far we beat Wales, were ridiculously generous against Scotland, a six point defeat to a well organised but limited England and a draw with France which we should have won. All with a squad that got more depleted as the weeks wore on. With fewer injuries we could have won any or all of these games. We are competing and if the likes of England are the best in the NH at the moment then we don't have too much complain about, all things considered.

For a side in transition, that is not too bad in my book. I'm not blowing smoke up Kidney's rear end by any means (I'm from Leinster) and I agree that general performances over the last two years have been very unsatisfactory. But I'm not going to ignore what I see as a decent few seasons ahead given what we've seen this year.

We couldn't beat the worst France side in living memory at home. We couldn't get within an arses roar of England at home, don't lete 6 points fool you. We didn't look like scoring a try in that game or scoring at all after 55 minutes.

We have been beat by a very limited Scotland team (no disrespect) and we beat a welsh team on a 7 stake losing run going in. That's a horrible run of results. I don't have the stats but I suspect our win ratio against tier one nations is now approaching 40%. hideous and can't be tolerated. As well as being in transition the reality is DOC has seen almost ten times the gametime of Iain Henderson

mystiroakey wrote:NZ are never ever in Transition..

why?

because in a way they allways are.. (constantly adding players, constant evolotion, constant blooding)- never hitting major lows because of it

Its about time the rest of us stopped using excuses and starting using that philosphy!

Absolutely spot on. You don't have to do it in every game either. There are more tests in the year than every before and summer tours and AIs can be used to blood players

Basically point being is that the coach should never look at the next game as the most important thing. have the forsight to look beyond that game. Even if it is a GS decider!!

England were an amazing team under Sir Clive. But ultimately it wasnt good enough. After that we have been in 'tansition' for 10 years!!!

mystiroakey wrote:
Basically point being is that the coach should never look at the next game as the most important thing. have the forsight to look beyond that game. Even if it is a GS decider!!

England were an amazing team under Sir Clive. But ultimately it wasnt good enough. After that we have been in 'tansition' for 10 years!!!

Erm - as far as what came afterwards yeah but they did win a couple of things, ultimately

Standulstermen wrote:

mankiaow wrote:I would be very surprised if he was replaced at this stage, given the nature of the beast. The IRFU are like the proverbial super tanker taking ten miles to make a turn.

Taking each game of this championship so far we beat Wales, were ridiculously generous against Scotland, a six point defeat to a well organised but limited England and a draw with France which we should have won. All with a squad that got more depleted as the weeks wore on. With fewer injuries we could have won any or all of these games. We are competing and if the likes of England are the best in the NH at the moment then we don't have too much complain about, all things considered.

For a side in transition, that is not too bad in my book. I'm not blowing smoke up Kidney's rear end by any means (I'm from Leinster) and I agree that general performances over the last two years have been very unsatisfactory. But I'm not going to ignore what I see as a decent few seasons ahead given what we've seen this year.

We couldn't beat the worst France side in living memory at home. We couldn't get within an arses roar of England at home, don't lete 6 points fool you. We didn't look like scoring a try in that game or scoring at all after 55 minutes.

We have been beat by a very limited Scotland team (no disrespect) and we beat a welsh team on a 7 stake losing run going in. That's a horrible run of results. I don't have the stats but I suspect our win ratio against tier one nations is now approaching 40%. hideous and can't be tolerated. As well as being in transition the reality is DOC has seen almost ten times the gametime of Iain Henderson

No one will be happier than me to see Kidney going. As I mentioned, I'm not an apologist for him. Your views may be more negative than mine but the point is that we are in transition and these enforced changes will benefit whoever is in charge for the RWC.

I was unaware of Ruddock's record and he sounds like he could fit the bill if the IRFU are not going to go for a SH coach.

We'll know soon enough.

Standulstermen wrote:
This isn't an anti-Deccie rant, he has been unfortunate with injuries but the fact we had to rely on a bandaged together 33/34 year old coming back into the frets on Saturday is testament to our 'depth'.

Nothing to do with depth - all the subs were used - it was because both centres got injured and it would have been a big ask to ask makeshift defence to run the last few minutes of such a tight game.

Just because you call it as not being an anti-Kidney rant doesn't make it so.

Standulstermen wrote:

mankiaow wrote:I would be very surprised if he was replaced at this stage, given the nature of the beast. The IRFU are like the proverbial super tanker taking ten miles to make a turn.

Taking each game of this championship so far we beat Wales, were ridiculously generous against Scotland, a six point defeat to a well organised but limited England and a draw with France which we should have won. All with a squad that got more depleted as the weeks wore on. With fewer injuries we could have won any or all of these games. We are competing and if the likes of England are the best in the NH at the moment then we don't have too much complain about, all things considered.

For a side in transition, that is not too bad in my book. I'm not blowing smoke up Kidney's rear end by any means (I'm from Leinster) and I agree that general performances over the last two years have been very unsatisfactory. But I'm not going to ignore what I see as a decent few seasons ahead given what we've seen this year.

We couldn't beat the worst France side in living memory at home. We couldn't get within an arses roar of England at home, don't lete 6 points fool you. We didn't look like scoring a try in that game or scoring at all after 55 minutes.

We have been beat by a very limited Scotland team (no disrespect) and we beat a welsh team on a 7 stake losing run going in. That's a horrible run of results. I don't have the stats but I suspect our win ratio against tier one nations is now approaching 40%. hideous and can't be tolerated. As well as being in transition the reality is DOC has seen almost ten times the gametime of Iain Henderson

And you think Ian Henderson would have made a difference? He rarely plays lock for Ulster and he does attract a lot of penaltie for Ulster anyway. I'd say Henderson has been managed very well considering he is a 20 / 21 year old in a very attritional position. Do you want him to end up like Stephen Ferris - career over through injury before he gets a chance to develop?

Yes...the word Transition is over-valued in pubs, on rugby punditry panels and places like here too. Transition is not a bad word at all if it takes a year or two and is an obvious method in process. If you can clearly see it happening and it looks like there is a brain behind it, then it's an acceptable word for a limited period of time.

If it stretches into years and if it looks a headless process with no design or true pattern motivating it, then it becomes something else entirely - a joke.

That's what we're going through now with Ireland. In a sense, it is what England endured for ten years. "We is a buildin' back to where we woz at previously" In England's case that was the 2002 and thereabout vintage side... in Ireland's case it was findng a new 'Golden Generation'.

To hell with both. Just construct a side of professional players, expertly prepared and trained to play a game that operates to specific standards that can be rehearsed and rehearsed and coached and drilled to achieve a level that competes at International level. It isn't rocket science, it's a game with rules and standards ...and it needs to be coached.

Much too much chat revolves around finding the special players. That's a cop out for respective coaches who can always say they're still waiting to unearth the 'special ones'. Forget the special ones and do your job - coach. Forget the special ones and demand from your Union appropriately prepared players - fit, physical, capable of running at pace (all of them!) capable of handling a ball at speed (all of them), with stamina enough to endure a grueling season or the best part thereof.

Protecting Irish players from themselves certainly hasn't worked. They look less and less able to sustain the efforts needed to get through a Championship with every year that passes. These players shouldn't be falling away in energy levels to such an extent during games, they shouldn't be succumbing to so many injuries so easily. There's nothing coincidental about our weaknesses that are exposed with every Championship we enter (6N, WC etc). Our preparation of our players isn't good enough, and then the tactics let them down too.

Totally fresh beginning is needed. We don't need any more arguments as to why present coaches must take us up 2015.

Why? Why is it a requirement that we hold on to underperforming coaches in the lead in to a WC? So that we can say the true beginning of an Irish rebirth of sorts should happen after yet another WC? The true rebirth in any business calendar should be now. No emotion, no knives out for Declan Kidney and his fellow coaches...just pragmatic business decision made to advance our hopes.

BTW..not designed to get at mankiaow. Everyone is entitles to their views. Just some thoughts on that word Transition itself given that it was mentioned in passing.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:
This isn't an anti-Deccie rant, he has been unfortunate with injuries but the fact we had to rely on a bandaged together 33/34 year old coming back into the frets on Saturday is testament to our 'depth'.

Nothing to do with depth - all the subs were used - it was because both centres got injured and it would have been a big ask to ask makeshift defence to run the last few minutes of such a tight game.

Just because you call it as not being an anti-Kidney rant doesn't make it so.

Come on, surely you know it was BOD's call to go back on more than it was Kidneys. I'm not saying I disagree, that he was allowed to. But It was hardly Kidney making a choice for the teams benefit. BOD was a mess. It was verging on irresponsible.

mankiaow wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

mankiaow wrote:I would be very surprised if he was replaced at this stage, given the nature of the beast. The IRFU are like the proverbial super tanker taking ten miles to make a turn.

Taking each game of this championship so far we beat Wales, were ridiculously generous against Scotland, a six point defeat to a well organised but limited England and a draw with France which we should have won. All with a squad that got more depleted as the weeks wore on. With fewer injuries we could have won any or all of these games. We are competing and if the likes of England are the best in the NH at the moment then we don't have too much complain about, all things considered.

For a side in transition, that is not too bad in my book. I'm not blowing smoke up Kidney's rear end by any means (I'm from Leinster) and I agree that general performances over the last two years have been very unsatisfactory. But I'm not going to ignore what I see as a decent few seasons ahead given what we've seen this year.

We couldn't beat the worst France side in living memory at home. We couldn't get within an arses roar of England at home, don't lete 6 points fool you. We didn't look like scoring a try in that game or scoring at all after 55 minutes.

We have been beat by a very limited Scotland team (no disrespect) and we beat a welsh team on a 7 stake losing run going in. That's a horrible run of results. I don't have the stats but I suspect our win ratio against tier one nations is now approaching 40%. hideous and can't be tolerated. As well as being in transition the reality is DOC has seen almost ten times the gametime of Iain Henderson

No one will be happier than me to see Kidney going. As I mentioned, I'm not an apologist for him. Your views may be more negative than mine but the point is that we are in transition and these enforced changes will benefit whoever is in charge for the RWC.

I was unaware of Ruddock's record and he sounds like he could fit the bill if the IRFU are not going to go for a SH coach.

We'll know soon enough.

I agree the next coach will benefit from the PJs of the world getting game time. This campaign has been a disaster though. Irish rugby probably will emerge the better for it mind you. Ruddock would be an interim appointment IMO. Certainly that would be the initial plan. Schmidt will most likely go back south. Giving Ruddock a few games won't kill us in the summer, he is a Slam winner at any rate. My worry is he is already inthe system and I (ideally) would like someone from tepee outside coming in. Pipe dream most likely

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:
This isn't an anti-Deccie rant, he has been unfortunate with injuries but the fact we had to rely on a bandaged together 33/34 year old coming back into the frets on Saturday is testament to our 'depth'.

Nothing to do with depth - all the subs were used - it was because both centres got injured and it would have been a big ask to ask makeshift defence to run the last few minutes of such a tight game.

Just because you call it as not being an anti-Kidney rant doesn't make it so.

Come on, surely you know it was BOD's call to go back on more than it was Kidneys. I'm not saying I disagree, that he was allowed to. But It was hardly Kidney making a choice for the teams benefit. BOD was a mess. It was verging on irresponsible.

Please don't quote him Clive.

Fly, aren't the amount of central contracts being reduced to 19 from the end of next season? That would be a positive line if people subscribe to what you are saying. When England were the best side in the world the Premiership made them battle hardened from the week in, week out physicality. Now it makes them too sore and too tired the poor petals. When were had out golden generation (who won one Grand Slam and bugger all else) our players were well rested and conditioned from being rested. Now they are soft and not match fit. Swings and roundabouts. It's not fitness, the tactics are inept and even teams like Scotland and France who are barely competent work us out and change tactics. Kidney doesn't have more than one way of playing and it patently isn't working.

Schmidt is going back to New Zealand. He's a none starter so e best forget about him. Perhaps he could part of the coaching setup saying as it wouldn't require him to be in Ireland all year round, but I don't see it. A setup which had Schmidt, Gibbs and others working underneath Vern Cotter would be my choice but at this point we can't get any worse. Scratch that, we can lose to Italy and then be a rock bottom.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Fly, aren't the amount of central contracts being reduced to 19 from the end of next season? That would be a positive line if people subscribe to what you are saying. When England were the best side in the world the Premiership made them battle hardened from the week in, week out physicality. Now it makes them too sore and too tired the poor petals. When were had out golden generation (who won one Grand Slam and bugger all else) our players were well rested and conditioned from being rested. Now they are soft and not match fit. Swings and roundabouts. It's not fitness, the tactics are inept and even teams like Scotland and France who are barely competent work us out and change tactics. Kidney doesn't have more than one way of playing and it patently isn't working.

Hookisms...everyone entitled yet again ..but if you can't see the physical difference between most of the top ten sides now and Irish players in general, then.......well, Specsavers adverts might be a good line of work for you

It's bloody obvious to me. Everytime I see an Irish team and look at the opposition I see us (in general) looking like perhaps bulkier than average GAA players (who are quite tall and bulky themselves now in a less physical game for amateurs!)...but the opposition, no matter where it comes from recently, always look a step up in the conditioning needed to endure the game at its most brutal International level. England, France, Wales, Scotland, Australia etc. We're running on hard sinews and West of Ireland toughness as other sides are running on scientifically produced muscle in the right places

It's not the only thing wrong with Ireland but in far too many seasons now I've been noticing it far too often that others endure games we are falling away in. It's blatantly obvious...and has nothing to do with the coaching bit, which is a big story all of itself.

Anyway, you I suspect are a Golden Generation fan... I think it was a myth driven by better coaching than we have now.

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:
This isn't an anti-Deccie rant, he has been unfortunate with injuries but the fact we had to rely on a bandaged together 33/34 year old coming back into the frets on Saturday is testament to our 'depth'.

Nothing to do with depth - all the subs were used - it was because both centres got injured and it would have been a big ask to ask makeshift defence to run the last few minutes of such a tight game.

Just because you call it as not being an anti-Kidney rant doesn't make it so.

Come on, surely you know it was BOD's call to go back on more than it was Kidneys. I'm not saying I disagree, that he was allowed to. But It was hardly Kidney making a choice for the teams benefit. BOD was a mess. It was verging on irresponsible.

BOD is a law onto himself. Very difficult for coaches to deal with him. He usually reacts very badly (to all his coaches) to be being taken off even if its for his own protection. This is usually then used then with a stick to beat the coaches with. Its a very difficult time for any coach trying to manage the end of BOD's rugby playing career.

Don't you mean ROG?

Glas a du wrote:Don't you mean ROG?

No, I mean BOD. He has to be dragged off. ROG usually comes off without any protest.

I think the physicality of our backs (or lack thereof) is overplayed.

Marshall, Sexton, Bowe, Trimble and Zebo aren't small. BOD and D'arcy have had long careers despite their lack of size. One aspect of Jacksons play which no one has criticised is his physicality.

Defensively Ireland have been pretty robust this 6N and have marshalled the likes of Tuilagi, Bastareaud, North and Cuthbert easily enough. Do we miss having a wing that can truck it up a la Trimble? Yes, but even when he was in the team we weren't executing a simple pop pass to a strike runner well so the real issues are elsewhere.

mankiaow wrote:

I was unaware of Ruddock's record and he sounds like he could fit the bill if the IRFU are not going to go for a SH coach.

We'll know soon enough.

Red Stag forgot to mention that he 'resigned'/got sacked by the WRU after a player revolt a year after winning the Grand Slam.
He then coached Worchester who got relegated.
His son plays for Leinster and has one international cap (it will be some fun on the tinternet if he drops Henderson for Rhys Ruddock )
He has been with Lansdowne for a couple of seasons now. As the Ireland's U20s coach, Lansdowne now gets the pick of all the emerging young talent in Ireland who end up going to University in Dublin - they are what Cork Con was like a few years ago.

Standulstermen wrote:I think the physicality of our backs (or lack thereof) is overplayed.

Marshall, Sexton, Bowe, Trimble and Zebo aren't small. BOD and D'arcy have had long careers despite their lack of size. One aspect of Jacksons play which no one has criticised is his physicality.

Defensively Ireland have been pretty robust this 6N and have marshalled the likes of Tuilagi, Bastareaud, North and Cuthbert easily enough. Do we miss having a wing that can truck it up a la Trimble? Yes, but even when he was in the team we weren't executing a simple pop pass to a strike runner well so the real issues are elsewhere.

Our players end up injured a lot more. This according to some medical experts can mean that the Irish lads are not using the same 'scientific' strength & conditioning methods as some other countries.

SecretFly wrote:
Anyway, you I suspect are a Golden Generation fan... I think it was a myth driven by better coaching than we have now.

All I'll say is that a team without Paul O'Connell isn't as good as a team with Paul O'Connell. No amount of coaching will turn Keith Earls, Darren Cave or Fergus McFadden or whoever else into Brian O'Driscoll.

Standulstermen wrote:I think the physicality of our backs (or lack thereof) is overplayed.

Marshall, Sexton, Bowe, Trimble and Zebo aren't small. BOD and D'arcy have had long careers despite their lack of size. One aspect of Jacksons play which no one has criticised is his physicality.

Defensively Ireland have been pretty robust this 6N and have marshalled the likes of Tuilagi, Bastareaud, North and Cuthbert easily enough. Do we miss having a wing that can truck it up a la Trimble? Yes, but even when he was in the team we weren't executing a simple pop pass to a strike runner well so the real issues are elsewhere.

That's the problem. Yes, defensively we over-excel. We over-excel because it's the aspect of our game that is concentrated on (I suspect most of the week training is given over to it). It's concentrated on and it requires furious amounts of energy and fitness to sustain it.

So when our gameplan requires huge amounts of time hitting players who are coming at you at speed...large men, heavy hitters, players with pace behind them.... when that is asked of you, when you kick away perfectly safe ball to bring those players onto you in waves; just how much energy do you think the players have left for the open field attacking running game that is not being given nearly so much priority in this team?

I'd say Ireland players suffer more from the sustained efforts of trying to play this overly defensive minded game than most. I'd say our reliance on it is one of the big wrongs attached to this coaching unit we all give out about.

The players can do it, but energy levels wilt dramatically in a game where they are asked to do it so much, so often - in ever game they play. And over the weeks those energy levels go down even further as I'm sure defensive patterns and drills are still the bulk of training all the way through.

Our systems fatigue our players. If we say the system is ok then the players have to be given the conditioning (the proper conditioning) to play it. I always say it is a SA style of game given to players designed for a different game.

No - I don't believe the bulk of Irish players, young or old have the right physical conitioning and bulk for such a game. I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. Our gameplan (such as it is) requires far too much energy to be expended in defensive duties from players more designed to run and evade. The gameplan is wrong and physical conditioning in Ireland must improve too - must.