Can Ireland beat Italy?

Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

Well they came very close 2 years ago, and doesn't look as though ROG will be there to save the day this time. Based on today's performance I wouldn't be surprised. Should be a cracker!

Should be a cracker and fair play to Italy for playing so positively today. They 5 or 6 class players now and looks like they have finally found a decent fly-half. I only hope Ireland go out and give it a crack. This whole tactc of giving every second ball to SOB is getting a BIT obvious now...

I would predict Italy to win. It would be great for Italian to rugby.

Only one thing seems certain...if it's a dry day, Italy will be the team showing more invention over an 80 minute period, the one showing most desire in keeping the tempo up for those 80 full minutes, the one showing a tactical willingness to play the game outside their own half, the team most eager to offload and evade wisely rather than in constantly falling into contact.

All those things Ireland have to improve on by big percentages if my prediction is to be proven wrong. And I hope and pray I am wrong.

Forget the forward dominated design we seem to be unwilling to break away from and loosen this final game up - strategically.... as in coach for it this week and give it priority. We have nothing to loose now only more self respect. Let's go down in Italy playing to win well rather than playing retentively to hold onto a slight one.

My prediction is no, hence why I see Italy finishing 4th and Ireland 5th, leading to Kidney's resignation.

Hmmm, with Ireland's injuries, and Italy will be up for it.

Italy fell apart after their good game against France - so we will wait and see if they get back up for Ireland.

It really will be a 50/50

Morgannwg wrote:My prediction is no, hence why I see Italy finishing 4th and Ireland 5th, leading to Kidney's resignation.

Well at least you see a silver lining

Kidney wont resign. He's too stubborn. Even if we lose he will still think he is the best man for the job

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Kidney wont resign. He's too stubborn. Even if we lose he will still think he is the best man for the job

Unless the irfu have someone already in mind I'm suspecting now he'll be given another season, citing injuries as the mainreason for problems and no doubt he will highlight all the new lads he has blooded in.

Anyway if Ireland play positively but lose i wont be too dejected. I've already written this season off and now support Italy as my 'second' team!

wales606 wrote:Hmmm, with Ireland's injuries, and Italy will be up for it.

Italy fell apart after their good game against France - so we will wait and see if they get back up for Ireland.

It really will be a 50/50

Agree with that. Italy and specially their flyhalf lacks consistency. Have to give credit to their coach who changed a fair amount of players for the game against england. The more I think about Brunel the more he looks like the no nonsense manager we should have in charge of the french team

John there is no way Kidney can be offered a new contract.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:John there is no way Kidney can be offered a new contract.

Well what are the alternatives? Conor o'shea doesn't want it (for now), schmidt is too new and other provincial coaches wont cut it at international level. They could go the lazy route and bring in an S15 coach but is that really a wise move? Maybe they have a cunning plan to get Elwood in who could be a decent shout but i think he needs a couple seasons with another club first.

Schmidt?

Morgannwg wrote:Schmidt?

thanks - corrected that

I don't care who it is just as long as Kidney is gone. He has ruined this team for far too long!!

Kidney has to go.

Ireland look like a team that is basically coachless now so having no-one couldn't be any worse! Ruddock is obviously the heir apparent, who knows the players and is the IRFU man.

littlejohn wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:John there is no way Kidney can be offered a new contract.

Well what are the alternatives? Conor o'shea doesn't want it (for now), schmidt is too new and other provincial coaches wont cut it at international level. They could go the lazy route and bring in an S15 coach but is that really a wise move? Maybe they have a cunning plan to get Elwood in who could be a decent shout but i think he needs a couple seasons with another club first.

??? I find all of that a little difficult to fathom, littlejohn. Ireland are 'good' enough for Elwood (least successful Provincial coach) and yet the other Provincial coaches aren't up to it (won't cut it?)
Schmidt is new? Schmidt might be 'new' but he's so new he'll be going into his final year with Leinster next season.
S15 is the lazy route? Where they play a quicker less lazy game?
Conor O'Shea has won one AP premiership so far....and as you say, said he doesn't want the Ireland job...and isn't too pushed on being available after his Harlequins contract expires either.

Maybe the alternatives are that we admit no coach of worth would want to coach us? If so, I know who I'll blame.

SecretFly wrote:

littlejohn wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:John there is no way Kidney can be offered a new contract.

Well what are the alternatives? Conor o'shea doesn't want it (for now), schmidt is too new and other provincial coaches wont cut it at international level. They could go the lazy route and bring in an S15 coach but is that really a wise move? Maybe they have a cunning plan to get Elwood in who could be a decent shout but i think he needs a couple seasons with another club first.

??? I find all of that a little difficult to fathom, littlejohn. Ireland are 'good' enough for Elwood (least successful Provincial coach) and yet the other Provincial coaches aren't up to it (won't cut it?)
Schmidt is new? Schmidt might be 'new' but he's so new he'll be going into his final year with Leinster next season.
S15 is the lazy route? Where they play a quicker less lazy game?
Conor O'Shea has won one AP premiership so far....and as you say, said he doesn't want the Ireland job...and isn't too pushed on being available after his Harlequins contract expires either.

Maybe the alternatives are that we admit no coach of worth would want to coach us? If so, I know who I'll blame.

What I meant for the S15 route is that its the obvious route that many teams go these days. O'Shea would be my preferred choice but is contracted up. I just can't see any of the existing provisional coaches been considered. Elwood was suggested as a tongue in cheek mainly as he's not in contract so the tight fisted irfu will consider him

O'Shea would have to choose coaches (back to square one, as it were)...as, like Kidney, the story seems to be that he doesn't do the coaching himself.

So it's all very well being a man in a suit but Ireland needs the top man - the main man - actually commanding policy on the field. A getting-down-and-dirty coaching coach

We have enough years of the man-management experts and motivational stuff. We need our top coach to know the modern game and know the methods and coaches he wants to bring that modern game to the fore...plus the strength and conditioning that goes with it - something Ireland is falling away from at a very fast rate.

Y'all a bit harsh on DK. He's lost several key players and other older key players have just about qualified for their gold watch and pension. You are in a dip and will slowly rise up once your younger tyros come on board. It ain't DKs fault.

Don't be surprised to see a Ruddock and Foley partnership moving forward next year.

Ruddock is the frontrunner for me- nobodys dream candidate but he's no less qualified and experienced than Kidney. Think he could improve things. Tbh, think Ruddock until 2015 with the IRFU trying to secure a long-term succession plan could be our best option.

Rather than trying to get O'Shea on board as coach now would like to see us undertake long-term discussions with him to come aboard as Director of Rugby after his Quins contract ends. The role would be working above the coaching role directing the player management programme, liasing with the provinces, focusing on problem areas (tighthead development, game time for players with NIQs ahead of them etc.)- leaving the coach with nothing else to do but focus on working with the players.

Take the planning side of things out of the coaches hands, leaving him more time to do technical work and preparation.

Notch wrote:Ruddock is the frontrunner for me- nobodys dream candidate but he's no less qualified and experienced than Kidney. Think he could improve things. Tbh, think Ruddock until 2015 with the IRFU trying to secure a long-term succession plan could be our best option.

Rather than trying to get O'Shea on board as coach now would like to see us undertake long-term discussions with him to come aboard as Director of Rugby after his Quins contract ends. The role would be working above the coaching role directing the player management programme, liasing with the provinces, focusing on problem areas (tighthead development, game time for players with NIQs ahead of them etc.)- leaving the coach with nothing else to do but focus on working with the players.

Take the planning side of things out of the coaches hands, leaving him more time to do technical work and preparation.

Which I always feel should be the National coach's priority bar none.

The game on the field is the product Ireland are selling to the world, the priority should always be a practical and potent gameday coach leading from the front, guiding in a direct coaching role, commanding onfield strategies.

I'd suggest he should be supported then by admin (overview) personel who would do the work you see as a Director's Role. But I don't see the Director role as being authoritative over a Coach. I'd deem the Director of Rugby to be more a Producer role... ie, giving the true Director (the head team coach) the tools he requires to work with - internationally fit, ready and skilled players in every position so that the true Director of the product on display has choices to work with on a continuous, unbroken level.

That streamlining has never really enjoyed much true success in Ireland. We say we have the players that could stream in but either don't actually trust them to do so, or when they do come in too many of them prove they are still quite off the pace for International standards and require lots of work by International coaches to drag standards up if they can. The coach controls the product, the Producers (IRFU plus 'Director') assists him by providing him with what he needs - not telling him what to do and who to pick.

littlejohn wrote:Italy are well overdue beating Ireland and I can see them pushing very hard for a second 6N victory. As an irishman I'll be watching this game very nervously in what may be O driscolls and kidneys last game...

You blew Wales off the park, you haven't become a crap side, your just on a bad run, yes you will batter Italy.

You'll finish on a high, and then need to seriously consider if any coach could of done anything better than Kidney, in truth I think not, Kidney is a cracking coach. The margins are so small in the 6 nations now than a bit of bad luck, a bounce of the ball or a fussy referee is the difference between winning a grand slam and finishing 4th! Just accept that you can't win all the time and try again next year.

Shifty,

We have had a steady slide in our standards in recent years.

2009 - Won 5 out of 5
2010 - Won 3 out of 5
2011 - Won 3 out of 5
2012 - Won 2 out of 5
2013 - Won 1 out of 4 so far

As you say the margins are so small. The same pre planned subsitutions that we see game after game. The poor management that heaps pressure on the team. The constant inability to develop an 80 minute performance.

You can't win all the time. But you have to at least meet certain targets if you want a new contract.

In any business it would be a remarkable decision to award a new contract to a man who does not have the support of the shareholders (fans) and who failed to match up to certain expected standards.

HELLO! Does anyone out there still care?

We have a game at the weekend after all. The good news? Sexton and Gilroy are fit to play! The bad news? Fergus McFadden and Eoin Reddan both definitely out. Paul Marshall has been called up and he looks set for a spot on the bench.

The more bad news? Luke Marshall, Brian O'Driscoll and Donnacha Ryan are all doubts as well.

This is likely the last hurrah for Declan Kidney, Donncha O'Callaghan and (whisper it) Brian O'Driscoll. So it would be wonderful if we could send them off in the right fashion in Rome and salvage some pride from another campaign that has been needlessly allowed to slip through our fingers. Even though I don't think Kidney is qualified to be an international coach, he's a decent man, and I would rather see him leave with his head held high than leave humiliated and harangued. I mean, so long as he leaves. So a good win in Rome would be good for everyone concerned.

Probably the biggest call is do you continue to give Jackson gametime at 10 after an encouraging display, or do you recall Johnny? Given our second half problems I might be inclined to use Sexton as an impact sub. We've been totally flat in the second half of games lately and springing one of our best players from the bench might just give us a shot in the arm and get us over the line.

Such tactical thinking is beyond the grasp of the 'Cork Confusion', however. Knowing that Jackson is likely to get more gametime to develop in the summer the return of Sexton is quite welcome.

It's our midfield that is the big concern- if Marshall and BOD don't make it, we look pretty barebones. Firstly, the words none of us ever want to hear again post Kidney transplant; Keith Earls to 13. Secondly Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Paddy Wallace and Fergus McFadden are all injured so we're running out of options at 12.

Notch wrote:Secondly Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Paddy Wallace and Fergus McFadden are all injured so we're running out of options at 12.

I do not think it's ideal, but with all of those injuries and looking at the squad we have and any available players not yet called up, I think Luke Fitz should be played at 12. I do not think him a 12 at all, but presuming no BOD (insanity and dangerous to rush him back, he was like a punch drunk boxer by the end of the France match) then I can think of no-one else available who has even a smidgin of 12 experience.

Always wanted success for the team, for the players, for the coaches...and for us.

It makes us all happy, it puts a bounce in your step when out in public or at work, it relieves the constant chatter about economy and debt.

I'd have loved a decent man (Kidney) and his other decent men coaches to have been more succesful as a unit. That would have been perfect. But it hasn't turned out that way and in order for smiles to go back onto faces to some extent we need to try out something new.

I'd allow Jackson to remain in situ and have Sexton on the bench. If it works out then Sexton could come on sometime in the second half (or maybe even not if Jackson is perfroming well - why would you?). But if it looked like Italy were yet another team beginning to overcome us then I think we'd need 'first choice' players onfield to steady a ship if they could.

We just don't need any more humiliation this season. We need to keep our win record against Italy clean. It's nothing much to fight for at this stage but it's enough to put fight into us...or should be

Actually, I forgot about Madigan and would have Madigan at 12 over Fitz. Presuming the doubtfuls are out injured (also very difficult to know who is the next in the backrow pecking order so threw in O'Donnel, though it could be any of a half dozen players from around the provinces)

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 McCarthy
5 Henderson
6 POM
7 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Jackson
11 Fitz
12 Madigan
13 Earls
14 Gilroy
15 Kearney

16 Kilcoyne
17 Cronin
18 Archer
19 Touhy
20 O’Donnell
21 Marshall
22 Sexton
23 Trimble

Note this isnt the team I would pick, but the team I think Deccie will be close to picking

wolfball wrote:

Notch wrote:Secondly Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Paddy Wallace and Fergus McFadden are all injured so we're running out of options at 12.

I do not think it's ideal, but with all of those injuries and looking at the squad we have and any available players not yet called up, I think Luke Fitz should be played at 12. I do not think him a 12 at all, but presuming no BOD (insanity and dangerous to rush him back, he was like a punch drunk boxer by the end of the France match) then I can think of no-one else available who has even a smidgin of 12 experience.

If Sexton is back, we could well see Jackson shifted to 12. He's got plenty of experience there, and there isn't much option. I also think it would be good for Him and Ireland (long term) if he wasn't immediately discarded upon sextons return.

Perhaps bring Cave in at 13 if BOD is out to provide some familiarity there.

We may even have Trimble and Gilroy on the wings, which may be needed. Familiarity may be all we have to rely on considering this mish-mash injury crisis.

9 Murray
11 Gilroy
12 Jackson
13 cave
14 Trimble
15 Kearney

20 P Marshall
21 Earls
22 Fitzgerald

So we're looking at:

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 McCarthy
05 Ryan
06 O'Mahony
07 O'Brien
08 Heaslip
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald
12 Earls
13 O'Driscoll
14 Gilroy
15 Kearney

16 Cronin
17 Kilcoyne
18 Archer
19 O'Callaghan
20 Henderson
21 Marshall
22 Jackson
23 Trimble

If Ryan is injured then O'Callaghan will start with O'Donnell coming into the bench.

Darren Cave's big moment could be upon us!

To be fair to italy they have had one poor game which was alot closer but for two break way tries.

I think is the year that Italy have been in each game for the whole match and accually looking lively.

I expect Ireland to win by five but could be 30 -25. Ireland have been good first half and poor second.

Ireland have hammered Italy the last two times we have played them but unlike the English we wont be underestimating them.

I heard his match will be Italy's highest attendance in the 6n as it is a sell out due to the numbers of travelling Irish fans. Can anyone confirm?

Anyway Italy could win as they are quite good but I dont think they will. Ireland by 7.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have hammered Italy the last two times we have played them.

I heard his match will be Italy's highest attendance in the 6n as it is a sell out due to the numbers of travelling Irish fans. Can anyone confirm?

Anyway Italy could win as they are quite good but I dont think they will. Ireland by 7.

I work for a rugby tour operator. We have been sold out for five weeks. There are a lot of Irish fans going.

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have hammered Italy the last two times we have played them.

I heard his match will be Italy's highest attendance in the 6n as it is a sell out due to the numbers of travelling Irish fans. Can anyone confirm?

Anyway Italy could win as they are quite good but I dont think they will. Ireland by 7.

I work for a rugby tour operator. We have been sold out for five weeks. There are a lot of Irish fans going.

Maith an fear Stag. Go raibh maith agat.

..call it an IMF bail-out love-in

I wonder if more people can go as the other person can go to Rome and see the new pope. Also its a nice place to be for the long weekend.

Brendan wrote:I wonder if more people can go as the other person can go to Rome and see the new pope. Also its a nice place to be for the long weekend.

I think it reflects the power of the Irish rugby wife.

Wow.

Just wow. 3 one score game son the bounce, the best defence in the competition and the well documented injuries and people are out for blood. Should Kidney's contract be renewed? probably not, but if you're going to change and build for RWC 2015, the change has to be the correct one, not merely for the sake of it. This isn't comparable to the end of the EOS era. Ireland are playing good rugby & creating chances but making on field errors, both tactical and of the handling/skills issues to, but they have also done some very very good things too, beyond the 1st half against Wales btw.

As for changing the Captain, absolutely the correct call to make the change, to allow the guy that will be there (barring injury of course) in 2015, an extra 5 games with the team as captain is a good idea. Selecting Heaslip as that man was & is questionable and I'll agree with those taking that selection to task, and I am on record here in the past question him being mooted in the past as a future irish captain, so black mark for Kidney there on his selection, not on the decision. Best or Kearney for me or as a bolter choice, Donnacha Ryan. Not many guys dead cert for their place, but those guys are there or there abouts (Best & Kearney anyway when everyone is 100% fit, whenever that may be!)

So please, we get it, a lot of you "hate" Kidney, but do not twist everything and assert shoite to continually reinforce that sentiment; he could cure cancer and you'd complain that he took too long.

I don't think anyone hates Kidney debaters, or has said anything to that affect.

I personally like him as a man. It's a shame that his coaching reign hasn't worked out but whilst Eddie O'Sullivan left a squad in bad shape, there are a lot of positives for the next man and thats down to Kidney getting a lot of promising players involved.

Ultimately, we can get a better coach in. Certainly little to no progress can be anticipated if we don't.

GunsGerms wrote:

Brendan wrote:I wonder if more people can go as the other person can go to Rome and see the new pope. Also its a nice place to be for the long weekend.

I think it reflects the power of the Irish rugby wife.

St. Patricks Day weekend as well. Dunno about down there, but the Monday up here is a bank holiday for St. Ps day.

What an utterly stupid article, and the post isn't up to much either. Of course Ireland can beat Italy, and they must go in as favourites, the question should be, Can Italy beat Ireland ? and I must say this is Italy's best chance ever, at the moment Ireland have lost one world class player after another, what with retirements and players who are carrying on for longer than they should, the thing is Ireland have not replaced they're golden generation players with players of the same level, ROG at his peak was a game winner, Sexton, although he is very good, he is not in the same league as ROG in his prime when it comes to controlling games, although Paddy Jackson for me looks like he will be up there with the best in the world in a few years time, D'Arcy has retired, John Hayes, Jerry Flannery, Paul O'Connell, Paul Wallace and his brother, Peter Stringer, these boys at their pomp were the best in the NH, they all hung around for to long, thus they stunted any other players getting a shot and breaking them in at a young age, both for province and country, Italy on the other hand were always perhaps a generation behind, but now they have forwards and backs, that if given a sniff, will grab it with both hands, but it is what they do with it when they grab it what should be looked at. Against France they took hold and did not let go, against England the grabbed but could not keep hold. If Italy are in touch throughout the game then Ireland are in trouble, likewise it would not surprise me if Ireland run away with it in the first half, that is how far Italy have come and how static Ireland have been over the last decade. For me this game is too tight to call, and no longer are Italy a potential banana skin, they are geniune challengers, and Ireland should not look at a loss as the end of the world as Italy are no mugs and if Italy do win, then it is not a case of Ireland being rubbish or going backwards, but a case of Italy improving year in year, and in a few years time it would not surprise me if Italy are challenging for honours in the six nations.

Nah, debaters, we don't want his blood...just a new head coach. It all sounds dramatic and like it should take this country into a long and vicious Civil War (like the Roy Keane saga).... but really, it isn't. It's saying we need a new coach. That gets said when a team underperforms for such an extended period. Nothing dramatic about those thoughts.

And perhaps you could explain the line:

"Should Kidney's contract be renewed? probably not, but if you're going to change and build for RWC 2015, the change has to be the correct one, not merely for the sake of it."

Is that agreeing with those who want a new coach, not agreeing with them, agreeing with them in principle or in truth, not agreeing with a word they say? Because you have to admit that statement above seems to cover all options and reasons for.

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Brendan wrote:I wonder if more people can go as the other person can go to Rome and see the new pope. Also its a nice place to be for the long weekend.

I think it reflects the power of the Irish rugby wife.

St. Patricks Day weekend as well. Dunno about down there, but the Monday up here is a bank holiday for St. Ps day.

It is alright. That is why its a sell out, of course.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Brendan wrote:I wonder if more people can go as the other person can go to Rome and see the new pope. Also its a nice place to be for the long weekend.

I think it reflects the power of the Irish rugby wife.

St. Patricks Day weekend as well. Dunno about down there, but the Monday up here is a bank holiday for St. Ps day.

It is alright. That is why its a sell out, of course.

Wish i had enough money to pay for a plane ticket out of the country for the thousands of drunken baffoons that weekend! Or i guess i could settle for just escaping it myself!

Yes lets change our coach. Lets see fly last year you were screaming for Schmidt to be considered. I mean just look at how good he is doing now that Cheikas team is falling apart. Might just be a reason why he left CF. Old Vern seems to be doing fine without him. Lets have Connor (I talk a great game but don't do any coaching)O'Shea, I can't wait until he discovers the vagaries of the IRFU. The only position he is aiming for is Phillip Brownes or he probably has eyes on the RFU.

Who else is there..lets see Ruddock, oh jebus wept and save our souls from the path of uselessness. I know lets get a foreigner because we all know how much better they are...look how successfulthey have been, Ashton, Kidd, Gatland...maybe we could get Henry. Ask the welsh, they loved him.

Anyway good luck with that.

Tell us Clive do you wish the same around the 12th, or maybe its the faux piety of the free pres crowd along with their sobriety and nice round hats that appeals...

DOD, an unknown risk with a new coach is better then a proven failure.

Yes they can but I don't think they will