Post Scotland v Wales: Scotland consolidation thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Well, I didn't see the game last night but it sounds like it was ruined as a spectacle from the outset by Liza Minelli Joubert.

Where are we now as a team? What do we know? Does our current placing reflect accurately where we are as a squad?

It seems to me (admittedly, not having seen the game, so I'll need your help) that:

1. The lack of time together with the squad and management has told? We didn't have much time with SJ and DR and it has ultimately showed. A 'back to basics' approach was necessary for us but also expedient as we didn't have the opportunity to consider more complex structures. I think what I'm saying is that you cannot blame the coaches for this. The core of the Welsh team have been together for years and that cohesiveness, especially in defense, seems to show when it counts.

2. Our set piece is good, provided that horrendous refeering does not do us a disservice.

3. However, just because we are solid defensively, adopting what is clearly a pre-ascertained strategy of not playing in our own half puts a lot of pressure on us defensively. Ironically, it does not play to our current strengths, which is giving our back three a chance with ball in hand.

4. We are missing Rennie and Barclay desperately. I don't think that it's sustainable to play Harley instead of Barclay or Fusaro in the next match. We need a fetcher.

5. I think that the value of Scott Johnson as a coach will diminish considerably if the SRU cannot persuade Dean Ryan to stay on. All good coaching set-ups are team affairs (Henry and Wayne, Mallett and Meehan, Dingo Deans and his sock puppet).

6. Unless we beat France, I am minded not to try and describe this campaign as a success. Mathematically we cannot finish bottom but with this group of players, I actually expected better.

What are your thoughts about where we are now?

[funnyExiledScot]

Well I hope your faith in Weir is both correct and repaid - I really do.

We can't win games with Laidlaw not trusting his fly half and hacking the ball in the air at every opportunity.

If Phil Godman would have looked as good as Jackson against Italy, then Dan Parks would have looked as good as Weir against Wales. If the tactic is to simply kick to the corners and compete at the lineout, why not just recall Dan Parks, the biggest hoofer we have?

Scotland need to find a way to get better ball to the backs. Then we can properly assess whether we have the right man at 10 or not. Currently we're barely playing 10 man rugby, more like 9 man rugby!

[RDW]

I'm not saying Weir is the Messiah part 2 but Jackson has had 3 seasons involved with Scotland on and off and I just think he's never going to develop into our long term option at 10 due to his lack of basic skills - he hasn't really improved much since his first cap. As I said I think Weir has these basic skills and can really push on - he is only 22 or something.

[funnyExiledScot]

....and Jackson is only 25. Not a single back looked half decent in a Scotland jersey under Andy Robinson, and yet put Jackson in a Glasgow jersey with decent ball and he looks like he can play.

Perhaps there's scope for both Weir and Jackson to push on, and I certainly don't think we have riches at 10 so as to chop and drop players so readily. Whether we think he's a great player or not, Jackson was the form 10 coming into the 6 Nations, and he's still unquestionably in the top three 10's available, and looks to remain so for the foreseeable future, so I don't see the merit in dumping him out of the match day squad for Saturday. That would be straight from the Andy Robinson school of man management.

[RDW]

For me 25 is pretty old in terms of whether they will still develop. He's not really improved in the past 3 years, so can't see him doing it now.

I'm not saying throw him on the scrap heap, but he's had his chance and is not producing - it is time to get behind Weir for the France game and summer tour.

[George Carlin]

I'm afraid that I agree about Jackson.

I got used sanitary towels thrown at me the last time I mentioned this but I am afraid that his status as The One Who Isn't Dan Parks meant that we projected greater ability onto him than perhaps he ever had. Don't get me wrong - it's never easy when your pack backpedals or can't give clean 1st/2nd phase ball but how many times are we going to keep making these excuses.

It's not that he can't be great. He can. However, it's his inconsistency that kills it for me. I don't think that he's ever strung more than 2 good games together. Jacko is only 25 but I also agree that he may well have plateaued. I get much more excited about Heathcote or Weir. Perhaps I'm being unfair.

All I know is that if Glasgow sold Weir, I would be gutted. If they sold the Rhubarb, then I would cry for 30 seconds before getting on with drinking my coffee.

[funnyExiledScot]

I am behind Weir for France and the summer tour, but I'm also behind Jackson. Both offer something different, and I certainly don't subscribe to the "had his chance" school of thought.

On that basis Euan Murray, Ross Ford, Jim Hamilton, Al Kellock, Ali Strokosch, Johnnie Beattie, David Denton, Chris Cusiter, Sean Lamont and many others would be on the "had their chance" scrap heap at varying stages of their careers.

It's a strange place to be for me, defending Jackson. I've been his fiercest critic for years. When he broke through for Scotland it was too soon. His club form wasn't even competent, and he was rushed into the set-up because Dan Parks had "had his chance". Finally this season Jackson has played some decent stuff for Glasgow and actually started a tournament on merit. Hopefully, if he continues his club form, he'll have plenty more chances to compete with Weir in the Scotland set-up. Hopefully the competition for Scotland and Glasgow can make both Weir and Jackson better players.

[RDW]

I think the problem is we don't have enough competition at 10. As has been said Jackson was brought in probably before he was ready - that would never happen in other Nations.

Competition will mean these guys have to work on their core skills and hopefully in 3-4 years team when Jackson is an experienced pro, Weir and Heathcoat are in their primes, we should have some success at 10. Hopefully....

[George Carlin]

FES - what is your opinion of Heathcote? This is not in any way a loaded question, I'm just curious. Do you think he is too young to be considered yet or that he has not been getting sufficient Barf gametime to make him a realistic prospect?

I ask in light of the obvious opportunity cost of not having him on the bench instead of Jackson, therefore denying us the chance to get a good look at him.

[George Carlin]

It's a strange place to be for me, defending Jackson.

Just don't start doing it with the Messiah, or you'll really start freaking me out.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think the problem is we don't have enough competition at 10. As has been said Jackson was brought in probably before he was ready - that would never happen in other Nations.

Competition will mean these guys have to work on their core skills and hopefully in 3-4 years team when Jackson is an experienced pro, Weir and Heathcoat are in their primes, we should have some success at 10. Hopefully....

As you well know, the real problem is Edinburgh. To have only two pro sides, and yet have one that can't produce a single credible option at 10 for Scotland, is shocking management.

What we need is for the new Edinburgh coach to get behind Leonard as first choice 10, and Hunter as reserve. Laidlaw takes the kicks and is a pretty competent game manager, and Scott and Tonks both have big boots on them, so responsibility can be shared whilst these guys get comfortable. Both players in my opinion have the raw materials to challenge Jackson and Weir (and Heathcote) for the Scotland jersey (Leonard in particular), and yet this season the approach has been muddled around Laidlaw and Francis, with the other two getting the odd game here and there.

[funnyExiledScot]

FES - what is your opinion of Heathcote? This is not in any way a loaded question, I'm just curious. Do you think he is too young to be considered yet or that he has not been getting sufficient Barf gametime to make him a realistic prospect?

I ask in light of the obvious opportunity cost of not having him on the bench instead of Jackson, therefore denying us the chance to get a good look at him.

I've seen highlights of the last two Bath games and he's looked really good. I'm conscious that we made a bit of a mess of his debut, due to one of Andy Robinson's more stupid decisions, and that he's only now breaking through into the Bath team as first choice. I'd leave him at Bath until the end of the season, let him continue his form and play 1st XV rugby. I'd bring him on the summer tour with a view to having him in contention to start the AIs, looking at early season form next year.

I think next season it'll be a three-way contest between Jackson, Weir and Heathcote. The Jackson - Weir battle will probably be resolved by Townsend at Glasgow. Whoever starts for Glasgow wins. The possible spanner in the works is Peter Horne, who I thought looked decent at 10 in recent games for Glasgow, and with Laidlaw at 9 we needn't worry about the fact that I'm a better goalkicker. As a playmaker and runner I thought Horne looked decent, with Dunbar at 12 and Bennett at 13. It's just a shame that it's Glasgow throwing up all the options. We need Edinburgh to put forward some decent alternatives. My big hope is Harry Leonard.

[George Carlin]

Fair dos FES.

Edinburgh needs to sign Heathcote, Tommy Allan or Daniel Carter this summer.

I'm undecided as to which.

[MacKnocked-on]

Slightly off topic but I notice on the SRU website that Fiji U21 backrow Joseva Nayacavou has been chosen in the Scotland squad for the Hong Kong 7s. I know he's a soldier in 2 Scots who has played for Heriots I think, does his selection for Scotland 7s mean he is also eligible for the full Scotland 15s?

[George Carlin]

Good spot, Knocked. Love the sound of McNayacavou.

[Pat_Mustard]

I think that will mean he's tied to Scotland, if he actually goes on to win a sevens cap. Haven't seen him play so no idea if he has any potential to win 15's caps. I think there was a recent story about him signing for an English Championship side for next season - might have been Doncaster. So if he qualifies on residency he will have to be capped before he moves south or the qualification will expire.

[funnyExiledScot]

Fair dos FES.

Edinburgh needs to sign Heathcote, Tommy Allan or Daniel Carter this summer.

I'm undecided as to which.

We already have the "next Dan Carter" in Piers Francis.....

Sounds like we're getting Tommy Allan. Not hugely bothered. A three way contest between Leonard, Hunter and Allan is obviously a little on the green side (understatement), but I've become so hacked off with rubbish performances from "experienced" players, I don't really care. Ability will out, and they'll either have it or they won't. From what I've seen of Hunter and Leonard this season, they'll be a step in the right direction.

[MacKnocked-on]

He has signed for Doncaster for the remainder of this season, don't know if he's played for them as yet but maybe that's why he's been selected for the HK7s in order to preserve his eligibility for Scotland. Don't know if he's got the potential to win 15s caps but from what I've read he's a particularly rapid backrow player.

[Pat_Mustard]

On closer inspection, he's a 28-year old back rower, just moving into pro rugby at a second division side - future Scotland caps seem very unlikely! He's moved to Doncaster on a short-term deal for the rest of the current season. The news reports on this state that he has already represented Scotland 7s but I can't see any evidence of this from the SRU.

[George Carlin]

On closer inspection, he's a 28-year old back rower, just moving into pro rugby at a second division side - future Scotland caps seem very unlikely! He's moved to Doncaster on a short-term deal for the rest of the current season. The news reports on this state that he has already represented Scotland 7s but I can't see any evidence of this from the SRU.

McNayacavou. Was a nice idea for the 15 minutes that it lasted.

[funnyExiledScot]

28 years old!! Scrap heap. He's had his chance.....

[George Carlin]

28 years old!! Scrap heap. He's had his chance.....

Not to worry. There'll be another Scots qualified Fijian loose forward along in a minute.

[funnyExiledScot]

It just pains me that Matawalu can't play for Scotland. Imagine how his quick taps could get the likes of Scott and Maitland into the game with ball they could work with, actually getting in behind the defensive line.

The chances of Laidlaw taking a quick tap in his own half are zero.

[Pat_Mustard]

28 years old!! Scrap heap. He's had his chance.....

If he was a 10 it would be a different story!

[MacKnocked-on]

On closer inspection, he's a 28-year old back rower, just moving into pro rugby at a second division side - future Scotland caps seem very unlikely! He's moved to Doncaster on a short-term deal for the rest of the current season. The news reports on this state that he has already represented Scotland 7s but I can't see any evidence of this from the SRU.

McNayacavou. Was a nice idea for the 15 minutes that it lasted.

His would seem a curious selection for Scotland 7s then wouldn't it?

[funnyExiledScot]

If he were a 10 my advice would be to wait a couple of years.

By then Weir and Heathcote will be on the scrap heap, having had their chance and not single handedly winning matches without the ball, and the "anyone but" school of fans will be looking for anyone with a pulse to play stand-off for Scotland. He doesn't even need to string a run of games together at club level. That's not how it works.

Plenty time for young Nayacavou...

[George Carlin]

If he were a 10 my advice would be to wait a couple of years.

By then Weir and Heathcote will be on the scrap heap, having had their chance and not single handedly winning matches without the ball, and the "anyone but" school of fans will be looking for anyone with a pulse to play stand-off for Scotland. He doesn't even need to string a run of games together at club level. That's not how it works.

This was absolutely the rationale behind my bid for Lions captaincy.

[funnyExiledScot]

On closer inspection, he's a 28-year old back rower, just moving into pro rugby at a second division side - future Scotland caps seem very unlikely! He's moved to Doncaster on a short-term deal for the rest of the current season. The news reports on this state that he has already represented Scotland 7s but I can't see any evidence of this from the SRU.

McNayacavou. Was a nice idea for the 15 minutes that it lasted.

His would seem a curious selection for Scotland 7s then wouldn't it?

I haven't seen him play, to be clear, but it may just well be that despite approaching pensionable age and unlikely to be available for Scotland in the inaugural World Cup to be held on the moon in 2086, he's one of the best 7's players available for selection.

I realise that's a wild and crazy criterion upon which to make such a judgement, but stranger things have happened. I think it's quite refreshing to see players scouted in the lower divisions. There are plenty good players down there. Look to Mike Cusack as a prime example.

[funnyExiledScot]

If he were a 10 my advice would be to wait a couple of years.

By then Weir and Heathcote will be on the scrap heap, having had their chance and not single handedly winning matches without the ball, and the "anyone but" school of fans will be looking for anyone with a pulse to play stand-off for Scotland. He doesn't even need to string a run of games together at club level. That's not how it works.

This was absolutely the rationale behind my bid for Lions captaincy.

A bid I fully endorse incidentally. I've consulted the stats, and no alternative candidate has missed less tackles and made less unforced errors than you. Not even a single career yellow card. Extraordinary discipline.

Until recently, only Mark Bennett rivalled your stats in professional rugby....

Flawless! So much better than Nick "brain fart" De Luca and Rhuriadh "had his chance" Jackson.

[MacKnocked-on]

If Nayacavou is qualified for Scotland on account of serving in 2 Scots and presumably being based at Dreghorn Barracks or wherever then how many other Fijian 'flyers' from the very successful Army 7s team are also qualified for Scotland? (the team is virtually Fijian I believe). We could do with a gainline busting 13 in the Tuilagi (I know he's Samoan but you get the idea)mould. SRU could also get back out to Fiji and find another Nico or two who haven't already played for Fiji and get them over with a view to qualifing on residency.

[DrTreasure]

Jackson has always been a talented attacking 10 and we have known that since he burst onto the scene in that game for Glasgow against Bath. Unfortunately we have always been aware of the areas of his game that needed improvement namely his ability to play when on the back foot, his defence and his kicking. Another aspect that has always worried me is the psychological element, he is very much a confidence player and always battling to prove himself against Weir, I think, has affected him. While he has played well for Glasgow this year and against Italy, I think he looked very fragile against England and Ireland and it was the right decision to give Weir his shot. Personally I would like to see them separated between the two pro teams with Jackson at Edinburgh where Laidlaw takes on the kicking responsibilities. I would then have Leonard and Hunter as his understudies looking to develop their games and consider Allan and Horne at Glasgow as 10 options in development. I wouldn't move Heathcote from Bath unless he lost favour (ie to Ford next season) as his game will benefit much more from playing regular for Bath in the AP than for Edinburgh in the Pro 12 currently.

I hope the SRU have learnt from the Francis debacle. I bet it was like when Souness played "George Weahs cousin" based on a phone call recommendation for Southampton. Some prankster probably told Lineen that Francis was Carter's long lost twin brother and the whole thing is a massive in joke in New Zealand.

[funnyExiledScot]

DrTreasure - excellent post.

Moving Jackson to Edinburgh isn't a daft idea at all, and would certainly sort out the imbalance in terms of stand-off options at Glasgow vs Edinburgh. As an Edinburgh fan I'd warmly welcome that move. I can see Jackson and Scott working well together at club level.

As you say, it would mean Allan moving to Glasgow where he can learn from Weir and Horne, rather than being one of three kids at Edinburgh. All makes good sense.

I love that Ali Dia (George Weah's cousin) story. Sadly it could apply to most of Bradley's Edinburgh signings. I certainly would relish the opportunity to ask the scout that watched Atiga what he saw!

[RDW]

What the hell is going on here??

I go away for 1 hour and suddenly we're lining up a 28 year old Fijian to play for Scotland!!

You lot all need to take a time out and think about what you have done.

[RDW]

And I think you will find if he is a 28 year old NSQ journeyman backrower who currently plays for a 2nd division English team then Edinburgh must already have dibs on him!

[funnyExiledScot]

And I think you will find if he is a 28 year old NSQ journeyman backrower who currently plays for a 2nd division English team then Edinburgh must already have dibs on him!

I can already see his face on my season-ticket application form!!

We'll probably swap him for David Denton, or Ross Rennie.

[George Carlin]

What the hell is going on here??

I go away for 1 hour and suddenly we're lining up a 28 year old Fijian to play for Scotland!!

You lot all need to take a time out and think about what you have done.

You won't want to see the mess that we've made of the kitchen, then.

[MacKnocked-on]

What the hell is going on here??

I go away for 1 hour and suddenly we're lining up a 28 year old Fijian to play for Scotland!!

You lot all need to take a time out and think about what you have done.

That's what we're talking about, the fact that he is going to be playing for Scotland (7s), seems a very left-field selection.

[RDW]

Surely it will just be to bolster the 7s team (Who are a bit crap) as opposed to long term future for Scotland?

[funnyExiledScot]

Surely it will just be to bolster the 7s team (Who are a bit crap) as opposed to long term future for Scotland?

Ludicrous suggestion, to think he's been picked for the 7's team because he's probably good at 7's.

I still can't get over the fact that he's 28 years old. He's only got 5 or 6 years of career left as a back rower. This is short sighted.

[George Carlin]

Surely it will just be to bolster the 7s team (Who are a bit crap) as opposed to long term future for Scotland?

Ludicrous suggestion, to think he's been picked for the 7's team because he's probably good at 7's.

I still can't get over the fact that he's 28 years old. He's only got 5 or 6 years of career left as a back rower. This is short sighted.

Totally. We need a future prospect. My daughter is 14 months now and very handy on her feet, with a good step and fend.

I'll contact the SRU and tell them that she's available and will doubtless do better than the current 7s squad.
Provided she gets her bottle at 7pm, that is.

[funnyExiledScot]

Her father is also a Lions captain in waiting, that's got to count for something.

The Carlin's - to add to the Hastings, Beattie and McLaren Scottish rugby dynasties....

[DrTreasure]

My first born is due any day now, if only my taste was for 18 stone Samoan woman and not a petite english girl! Suppose there is still time, for the sake of Scottish rugby I'm willing to take one for the team. Does anyone have mrs tuilagis number?

[RDW]

I've always thought we should send Richie Gray out to stud.

[RDW]

Does anyone have mrs tuilagis number?

By the look of her children she would eat you alive!

Or maybe you like that sort of thing...!

[dragonbreath]

Well, I didn't see the game last night but it sounds like it was ruined as a spectacle from the outset by Liza Minelli Joubert.

Where are we now as a team? What do we know? Does our current placing reflect accurately where we are as a squad?

It seems to me (admittedly, not having seen the game, so I'll need your help) that:

1. The lack of time together with the squad and management has told? We didn't have much time with SJ and DR and it has ultimately showed. A 'back to basics' approach was necessary for us but also expedient as we didn't have the opportunity to consider more complex structures. I think what I'm saying is that you cannot blame the coaches for this. The core of the Welsh team have been together for years and that cohesiveness, especially in defense, seems to show when it counts.

2. Our set piece is good, provided that horrendous refeering does not do us a disservice.

3. However, just because we are solid defensively, adopting what is clearly a pre-ascertained strategy of not playing in our own half puts a lot of pressure on us defensively. Ironically, it does not play to our current strengths, which is giving our back three a chance with ball in hand.

4. We are missing Rennie and Barclay desperately. I don't think that it's sustainable to play Harley instead of Barclay or Fusaro in the next match. We need a fetcher.

5. I think that the value of Scott Johnson as a coach will diminish considerably if the SRU cannot persuade Dean Ryan to stay on. All good coaching set-ups are team affairs (Henry and Wayne, Mallett and Meehan, Dingo Deans and his sock puppet).

6. Unless we beat France, I am minded not to try and describe this campaign as a success. Mathematically we cannot finish bottom but with this group of players, I actually expected better.

What are your thoughts about where we are now?

Thats a lot of opinion based on a game you didn't see.

[DrTreasure]

Does anyone have mrs tuilagis number?

By the look of her children she would eat you alive!

Or maybe you like that sort of thing...!

This is true, such is my commitment to the cause. Though given my resemblance to Rob Harley it would probably be a pretty freaky looking child.

[George Carlin]

Well, I didn't see the game last night but it sounds like it was ruined as a spectacle from the outset by Liza Minelli Joubert.

Where are we now as a team? What do we know? Does our current placing reflect accurately where we are as a squad?

It seems to me (admittedly, not having seen the game, so I'll need your help) that:

1. The lack of time together with the squad and management has told? We didn't have much time with SJ and DR and it has ultimately showed. A 'back to basics' approach was necessary for us but also expedient as we didn't have the opportunity to consider more complex structures. I think what I'm saying is that you cannot blame the coaches for this. The core of the Welsh team have been together for years and that cohesiveness, especially in defense, seems to show when it counts.

2. Our set piece is good, provided that horrendous refeering does not do us a disservice.

3. However, just because we are solid defensively, adopting what is clearly a pre-ascertained strategy of not playing in our own half puts a lot of pressure on us defensively. Ironically, it does not play to our current strengths, which is giving our back three a chance with ball in hand.

4. We are missing Rennie and Barclay desperately. I don't think that it's sustainable to play Harley instead of Barclay or Fusaro in the next match. We need a fetcher.

5. I think that the value of Scott Johnson as a coach will diminish considerably if the SRU cannot persuade Dean Ryan to stay on. All good coaching set-ups are team affairs (Henry and Wayne, Mallett and Meehan, Dingo Deans and his sock puppet).

6. Unless we beat France, I am minded not to try and describe this campaign as a success. Mathematically we cannot finish bottom but with this group of players, I actually expected better.

What are your thoughts about where we are now?

Thats a lot of opinion based on a game you didn't see.

The opinion was based on 4 games, not just one. And I've seen the game now - nice of you to check on me though.

[bsando]

She's already pushed out a tribe of kids. Why not give picamoles mother a ring too? she could help you coax tuilagis mum into the task at hand. I've got madame picamoles number here...

Zero, huit, zero, zero - ménage et trois

[DrTreasure]

Ha, I meant Alesana's wife, he seems like an understanding fella and am sure he and the missus will be able to see that doing this for the sake of scottish rugby will be acting for the greater good.

[Guest]

Slightly off topic but I notice on the SRU website that Fiji U21 backrow Joseva Nayacavou has been chosen in the Scotland squad for the Hong Kong 7s. I know he's a soldier in 2 Scots who has played for Heriots I think, does his selection for Scotland 7s mean he is also eligible for the full Scotland 15s?

Do any of you know how he qualifies? Is it due to the time served in Scotland with the Army? The reason I ask, is there's obviously a few Fijians etc living in Scotland serving in the Army. When I played Army Scotland, 19/22 of the squad were Fijian.

[Guest]

"England were royally and painfully ambushed and Wales will not lack for
motivation on Saturday. Instead of merely looking to stop England from
completing a grand slam, Wales find themselves in the position of trying to
win a game to retain their title."

Interesting to read in The Times today. Funny quite how commonly this ambush word is used

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