Englands Argentina Tour - Who would you pick?

This I am sure has been done somewhere before but - its always fun.
Who'd you select bearing in mind possible Lions candidates will be unavailable.

Guys in with a Lions shout - Robshaw, Cole, Launchbury, Parling, T.Wood, B.Youngs, O.Farrell, Tuilagi, M.Brown

Selecting 2 in each position -

1.Vaunipola, Marler
2. T.Youngs, Hartley
3. Wilson, Henry Thomas
4. Lawes, Ed Slater
5. Robson, Kitchener
6. Haskell, T.Johnston
7. Kvesick, Fraser
8. Billy Vaunipola, Ben Morgan
9. D.Care, Simpson
10. Flood, F.Burns
11. Wade, Ashton
12.Billy Twelvetrees, Barritt
13. J.Joseph, J.Tompkins
14. J.May, Sharples
15. Foden, Goode

Think the tour is only 2 games (tests) with no mid weekers so I dont expect a big squad to travel. Some of the back-ups will be sacrificed for extra front row and back 5 cover.

I think you'll be lucky to have both hookers and Danny Care in the summer, and possibly Barritt as well.

I like your squad otherwise. In particular I think Henry Thomas is going to be an outstanding tighthead.

I'd also switch Burns and Flood in the summer, and start with Burns and Twelvetrees at 10 and 12, with Joseph at 13. That's a serious 2nd choice midfield to have.

Not sure Brown is in the lions view mind...so i think we still have the 3 Fb dilema.

I also think we must find a space for Kruis...he looks a real prospect...maybe take him in place of Tom Johnson at 6. He can also cover 4/5 very well.

I dont think it'll be a hugely experiemental squad...but i do think they will look to evolve the team again...maybe with a little more focus on attacking options. ..

I think it would be a mistake to use Brown on the wing in the summer, I really do. England need to have a look at Wade and May - specialist wingers and great finishers.

Brown should be at 15 if anywhere, with perhaps Goode on the bench to change things around if needed.

Yes, I thought that as I wrote it, although I dont think that both will go with Lions. At the moment you'd think that T.youngs was the front runner leaving England with Hartley and An.Other. In my mind that would be either Grey (Quins) or the more experienced Paice (LonIrish).

Danny Care may have just played himself out of contention for Lions after that Italy game. I'm not saying he had a howler (apart from that 1 box kick). But others had better games - Phillips, Laidlaw are all chucking their hats in.

Argentina - the opportunity England need to see who is third choice scrum half and 3rd choice hooker? And yes I know who Lee Dickson is and no I don't think he's is the answer.

Scrum halfs - Simpson (never really grabbed opportunity, unfortunate injuries), Ben Spencer (don't know a lot about him - too young?). W'Worth (see Simpson). Open to other suggestions.

Hooker - Joe Gray, Rob Webber, Paice (none inspire me).

No mention of Croft anywhere in the OP. I doubt he'll tour with the Lions unless Leicester go on a big Heineken Cup run, so he'll be in for Johnson.

Not going to clog up the thread with a whole squad selection, but I'd hope that Wade and May both get caps and a chance to fight it out for a spot in the AIs. I wouldn't be surprised to see Charlie Matthews and George Ford travel either - they were both stars in the 2011 u20 side and Lancaster has had them in Saxons squads so clearly rates them. Matthews hasn't quite kicked on this season but he's clearly got all the ingredients, and Ford seems to be finding form again.

The important areas to look at are TH, no8, back 3.

I’d also like to see the injury prone rested. Including Corbs, Lawes, Morgan (I know he’s spent a lot of time ‘resting’ but he’s brittle), Croft, maybe Flood & Wood. Not sure if Ashton needs a rest, or more game time to boost his confidence.

I really do think that Brown will be with the Lions. He offers that much needed versatility and would make an ideal mid-week 15.

I agree that we need to develop our real speed wingers though and get them in the England test squad.

Geordie - I'd be fine with dropping T.Johnston, he never really impressed me. Kruis is a better lock than back rower though.

I had forgotten to mention Lawes too - I'm not convinced that he will be selected either.

I very much doubt we'll see Corbisiero on this tour. He's had so many setbacks with the same injury that they'll want to get him right.

thomh - quite right, I'd forgotten Croft too.
Have a feeling that he's one of those that Gatland may pick on previous Lions experience as well as current form.
It will be interesting to see how he goes against Wales - either starting or from the bench.

That would be a shame about Corbis - who else is in contention for the LH spot then?

Matt Mullan
Nathan Catt
PDJ

I don't think PDJ is a realistic option there now that you can have a specialist LH and TH on the bench. I think Vunipola, Marler and hopefully Corbisiero will be just fine to choose from in the long run, but Mullan could be a handy extra option this summer.

Pretty close to what I'd go for, though I think one of our hookers, Morgan & Barritt may well end up going as squad members of the Lions. Not so sure Brown will go as he hasn't been given the opportunity to show what he can do at FB this 6N.

I've just said on another topic that I think Ashton should be left at home to have a summer off England duty and focus on his preseason.

I'd add Yarde, Daly & Eastmond to the backs and Gray, Kruis, Gibson & Guest to the forwards (probably wouldn't select Johnson, very good player, but at 31 I think we'd be better served developing someone younger).

It feels like Mullan has been around for ages - but his profile states that he's only 26.

Think Johnston's time is done. Croft would be there if hes not with the Lions and his leadership and experience could be very useful but Kruis would be a good shout

Mulllan was converted from hooker,should have left it alone.messed his career up big time.

Ok my shout...

Lions - Launchbury, Parling, Croft?, Robshaw, Cole, T.Youngs, B.Youngs. Farrell, Tuilagi

1.Vanikolo, Marler
2. Hartley, Grey
3. Wilson, Henry Thomas
4. Lawes, Ed Slater
5. Robson, Kitchener (replace Robson with Kruis)
6. Haskell, T.Johnston (replace with Wood who will not be a lion)
7. Kvesick, Fraser
8. Billy Vaunipola, Ben Morgan

9. D.Care, Simpson (replace with anyone )
10. F.Burns, Flood (Burns 1st choice)
11. Wade, Ashton (Rest Ashton give Yarde a go)
12.Billy Twelvetrees, Barritt Replace with Tomkins,Barritt deserves a rest
13. J.Joseph, J.Tompkins (Replace with Elliott Daly)
14. J.May, Sharples (Replace with Foden)
15. Foden, Goode (Replace with Brown who will ot be a lion)

propdavid I don't think Vainikolo will be coming back into the England team and certainly not at Loosehead prop! I think you mean M Vunipola.

I think it's got a nice balance to it but i'd like to see Fearns at 6 or 8.

Ha - good spot Chjw - Yes I meant Vaunipola.

Geordie - Just picking from those chaps in the Saxons. Dont think that SL will go outside that group much. If not Simpson then the other option is Wigglesworth and I'd rather not go there. Its been done - offers silidity and nothing more.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
6. Haskell, T.Johnston (replace with Wood who will not be a lion)

What makes you think that? He's been the best of the 6s available this season.

I understand mate...i think we have two very good 9's then the rest are quite a way back.

Fearns is an interesting call...i was thinking about him aswell...where is he at the moment performance wise? Good enough to tour over Wood or Haskell? I dont think so. And not over Morgan or Vunipola.

Bear in mind i Lancs being Lancs will keep this squad as 1st choice as possible...so he will probably only replace those who are Oz bound.

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
6. Haskell, T.Johnston (replace with Wood who will not be a lion)

What makes you think that? He's been the best of the 6s available this season.

Mate i think Wood is Englands best 6 by a country mile and one of the best in the world...but i just have this niggling feeling Gatland will go with Lydiate, Croft and the irish boys....dont know why...just do..

Well the stated aim is creating a pool of players where there are 3 or 4 options for each position - so it may well be that SL will be a little more experimental.

A big reason for keeping the same bunch of players together up to now has been to create the right mentality and also trying to form an effective team out of inexperienced players. We might be getting past that phase now.

I'd take attwood and webber over Robson and grey....Attwood the enforcer has been in imperious form and webber should be firing by the time the summer comes.

There are a lot of possibles there sirtidy.
Webber still hasnt had much game time since coming back from injury.
Attwood was dealt with quite well by the academy locks at Quins last weekend.

I must admit that I was dissapointed Attwood didnt cick on after his earlier England fringe appearances. Thought there was a lot of potential there as an enforcer type - that was before the emergence of the Launchbury/Parling combo.

Is Attwood in the Saxons at present?
Just rememberd that M.Botha is likely to be in the mix for 2nd row.
Tom Palmer too.

It will be important for England to maintain momentum, so I would expect Lancaster to take a squad to win - as far as possible given Lions and injuries - rather than a development squad. The 2001 squad that toured Argentina during the Lions tour provided quite a few of the eventual 2003 RWC winners.

He'll also be short of Rowntree and Farrell, so I'd imagine he'll be looking to work with players who already know the system. As such, I'd expect Lancaster to rely on the current EPS and Saxons groups, subject to any changes he makes at the end of the season. I'd assume a touring party of 35ish (extra cover at prop, hooker, SH and FH).

propdavid_london wrote:There are a lot of possibles there sirtidy.
Webber still hasnt had much game time since coming back from injury.
Attwood was dealt with quite well by the academy locks at Quins last weekend.

I must admit that I was dissapointed Attwood didnt cick on after his earlier England fringe appearances. Thought there was a lot of potential there as an enforcer type - that was before the emergence of the Launchbury/Parling combo.

It is a shame that Attwood doesn't seem to have stepped up further. Your comment prompted me that there are a couple of players who may have risen in the pecking order over the course of the season, though. I would not be surprised to see Buchanan (who I thought did well in his Saxons gametime) move ahead of Gray, and Lancaster may have seen enough of Matthews (whom he's said he has his eye on) to pull him into the Saxons.

PDJ, on the other hand, may well be given a full pre-season with Quins to see if John Kingston can do for him what he's done for Ross, Marler, Johnston... I'd not be surprised to see him back in the England reckoning sometime in 2014 (unless he gets overtaken by Collier or Sinckler - not outside the bounds of possibility).

GeordieFalcon wrote:

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
6. Haskell, T.Johnston (replace with Wood who will not be a lion)

What makes you think that? He's been the best of the 6s available this season.

Mate i think Wood is Englands best 6 by a country mile and one of the best in the world...but i just have this niggling feeling Gatland will go with Lydiate, Croft and the irish boys....dont know why...just do..

Left to his own devices maybe as he knows Croft and Lydiate well already, but remember that Wood will have Farrell and Rowntree to vouch for him in the selection meetings, and purely on recent form there's absolutely no way he wouldn't go.

Poorfour wrote:
PDJ, on the other hand, may well be given a full pre-season with Quins to see if John Kingston can do for him what he's done for Ross, Marler, Johnston... I'd not be surprised to see him back in the England reckoning sometime in 2014 (unless he gets overtaken by Collier or Sinckler - not outside the bounds of possibility).

I've always felt that there's been a collective re-imagining of Ross's time at Quins. He was decent but nothing like the international tighthead he became at Leinster. While he was with us the front row was hardly a strength, even though he and Gary Botha have since gone on to play at a very high level with other clubs.

thomh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
PDJ, on the other hand, may well be given a full pre-season with Quins to see if John Kingston can do for him what he's done for Ross, Marler, Johnston... I'd not be surprised to see him back in the England reckoning sometime in 2014 (unless he gets overtaken by Collier or Sinckler - not outside the bounds of possibility).

I've always felt that there's been a collective re-imagining of Ross's time at Quins. He was decent but nothing like the international tighthead he became at Leinster. While he was with us the front row was hardly a strength, even though he and Gary Botha have since gone on to play at a very high level with other clubs.

Not sure I agree with you there. Rossy was plucked from the Irish scrapheap and while he was only fairly solid in his first season or two, he and Ceri quietly began to form a very effective front row, which really got going with the addition of Botha and then Gray. They weren't the most destructive front row around, but in their last couple of seasons together they were at or near the top of the Prem in terms of scrums won. He may have developed further since he left, but you'd expect that from a prop - but he left because Quins had taken him from a point where Irish rugby didn't have a place for him to a point where he had realistic international ambitions.

Ah fair enough - I only saw his last couple of seasons (started going to Quins around RWC 2007) so my memory of him is always of a pretty decent but unspectacular scrummager. Hadn't realised how much Quins improved him from where he was before. Always suspect that our scrum being such total garbage from 2009-early 2012 had given people idealised memories of how good it was before he left.

Edit - btw how does Gray fit into that? He only joined after Ross left?

My memory must be going - I thought Gray arrived shortly after Botha left but while Ross was still with us, but it was Brooker.

But I'm pretty sure that the scrum had improved vastly before then. Jones, Ross and Botha held their own against Leinster in that QF; things went backwards a bit when Botha left but had picked up again before Ross left. Probably not as good as the current lineup, but it was much less prone to giving away penalties.

Poorfour wrote:My memory must be going - I thought Gray arrived shortly after Botha left but while Ross was still with us, but it was Brooker.

But I'm pretty sure that the scrum had improved vastly before then. Jones, Ross and Botha held their own against Leinster in that QF; things went backwards a bit when Botha left but had picked up again before Ross left. Probably not as good as the current lineup, but it was much less prone to giving away penalties.

But Ross left before Botha??

My memory of it is that for 2 1/2 seasons after Ross left our scrum was for the most part a severe weakness. Lambert (now a very good loosehead) always struggled at tighthead, same for Andress and then Fairbrother, while it took Johnston until last season to really start performing.

I think it's 2 tests with 1 midweek game? Not sure where I read that.

Dan Cole, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Manu Tuilagi should all be on the Lions tour (unless they are injured, in which case they won't tour with England). There are other players who are maybes, but those 6 should go.

We need to look at tight-head options, and even if Cole doesn't tour with the Lions, I'd give him a summer off. Otherwise, we take the strongest front row we can. It would be great to see Corbisiero back in an England shirt. Definite Lions contender for me before all his injuries, not sure if he'll have enough time to prove himself now.

Second rows and we may lose one or two to the Lions, but otherwise pick our strongest. That's Launchberry and Parling if available, Lawes as first back up. I'd like to see Kitchener get in and around the squad, and maybe even get game time if one of the first choice locks is with the Lions.

Back row is a fiercely competitive area for the Lions, but I'd think Tom Wood and Chris Robshaw should get in. We should take both our first choice 8s (Morgan and Vunipola) to Argentina, as they are both lacking International experience. On the flanks, Croft and Haskell should go (assuming they're not Lions), along with Kvesic and Kruis in my opinion. That would be a good number of options. I expect to see Johnson, Clark and Waldrom, which will upset me greatly.

Scrum half, Youngs should go to the Lions, Care might go. If not, get Care in an England shirt because there isn't much behind him, and I want my backs getting the best possible ball. Probably Dickson to go behind him, Simpson on standby.

Fly half is Burns and Flood for me. Neither look likely to go on the Lions tour, whereas Farrell definitely should. Start Flood in the first test, Burns in the second test.

Centres, Tuilagi should be a Lion, and I possibly sit Barritt out. Before the Italy game I thought Barritt may even tour with the Lions, but that's looking less likely now. Still, not many centres in Britain or Ireland have their names inked in (Tuilagi and O'Driscoll aside), so Barritt may still get a call. Either way, I'd start Twelvetrees at 12 in both games, as he should be comfortable playing with Flood and Burns, and offers us a more attacking dimension in the centres. Outside him Joseph may be the next cab off the rank, but I've been very impressed with Tomkins, and would be tempted to start him. Trinder and Joseph can go as options, Joseph obviously covering 13 and wing.

Back three and I'd possibly give Ashton the time off, even if he isn't called up to the Lions. I guess it depends on the respective form of Brown, Goode and Foden, but you could see all three go. None are likely to tour with the Lions (Halfpenny, Hogg and Kearney are probably all ahead of the three English boys), but you could give a start each to Brown and Goode at full-back, and Foden could take one wing spot if we wanted to continue with this two full-backs plan. I'd definitely find room for Wade and May, assuming both are fit and neither bolt for the Lions, and start Wade in the first test and possibly Wade and May together in the second test.

So my squad is looking something like:

Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola, Wilson, Thomas
Youngs, Hartley
Launchberry, Parling, Lawes, Kitchener
Croft, Haskell, Kruis, Kvesic
Morgan, Vunipola
Care, Dickson
Flood, Burns
Twelvetrees, Tomkins, Trinder, Joseph
Foden, Wade, May
Goode, Brown

I think that represents a good balance between consistency and trying to evolve the team to the next level. Obviously some of those may not be available, so then you look at bringing through the next option.

I would have thought Elliot Daly might have got a few more mentions, he plays centre, wing & FB, is defensively sound, has pace to burn, great feet, an intelligent boot, a really good eye for bringing other players into the attack as well as picking lovely lines himself. Wade & Varndell have rightly been winning plaudits for their finishing but Daly has been the best back on show at Wasps for me this season and probably the key to allowing the backline to make the most of itself. At the very least he's a superb option for the 23 shirt.

hawalsh, I'd be very interested in seeing Daly given a run. He seems to do a lot of things well.

I expect to see Johnson, Clark and Waldrom, which will upset me greatly.

Robbo277,

Yes Waldrom would dissapoint me massively...just wouldnt see the point taking him on this tour.
Johnson is a solid player, with a high worksrate. He is a very able back up so i wouldnt really mind if he was to tour...but would prefer that not to be at the expense of maybe a younger more talented back rower.

And Clark,well where do we go with this one. IF he can keep the physicality, the aggression BUT LOSE the recklessness and ocassion to cause intentional harm then move on to show this potential that almost every coach whos had him seems to see...then i have no issues with him being in the squad. My issues is that i havent seen much of that actual potential...or of it being brought out.

Hawalsh, i mentioned him ...was a little dissapointed to see him playing FB in the recent Scotland v Saxons game though. There have been mutterings that, thats where they want to see him actually end up...and i think he's a better centre.

My starting team taking in to account Lions players being away would be:

1.Vunipola
2.Hartley
3.Wilson
4.Kruis
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola
9.Care
10.Burns
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.Barritt
14.May
15.Brown

Going with Marler, Youngs, Cole, Launchberry, Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Youngs, Farrel and Tuilagi all being away with the Lions. Ashton, Goode, Hask, Flood rested.

Interesting Yappy..do you think Fraser is now ahead of Kvesic for that 7 role...

Also if we are going to plump for Twelvetrees at 12, i rate him highly defensively aswell...so wouldnt want to see Barritt in there...and would prefer to see a Joseph or Daly type player....

Another player i forgot...Eastmond...hes in the Saxons.

I've never rated Kvesic too much to be honest, Fraser looks to have more physicality about him and more power, which is something we need. Kvesic looks technically good at the breakdown but I'm just not impressed by the rest of his game, especially as we've never seen him in the Heiny or any playoffs to really see how he goes in big games.

Barritt looked ok outside 36 against Scotland, I'd go with him for the first game at least and then after that look at Joseph and/or Daly, my biggest concern for those two is their core strength and power, it's a bit step up Internationally and I think both would struggle to go straight in at 13 in all that congested traffic, maybe start them on the wing.

Eastmond in another season will be quality.

Well Daly played FB for the Saxons recently.

I confess i have been seriously impressed with Fraser every game i have seen him...and that includes the recent Saxons game v Scotland here in Newcastle where the rest of the Saxons were rubbish / or just outplayed.

I wonder if Tomkins might be a dark horse for a spot. His perfromances have been very interesting for club...offering that powerhouse fulcrum..offloading etc...him and Twelvetrees could offer a big duo...but quite creative also.
Whilst lancs will go with his strongest squad to keep it together....I just think Barritt has been non stop and could maybe do with a summer off to recharge the batteries.

I think our quest for a back-up tight head is going to need to gather pace whatever happens, down to the sheer amount of rugby Dan Cole will have played by the end of the season. I mean he has already played 17 games for Leicester and then throw on top five England games and potentially 5-6 games for the Lions games. We could be talking 30+ games by July, which is just mental for a front line prop. He is such an important player for us and I seriously worry about him getting injured/ burnt out, it could affect him well into next season.

Which leads me to my point, we need to find a player that we would be happy to start, not just a stop gap for others. This means taking the strongest possible set of props. I’m fine bringing someone like Henry Thomas or Shaun Knight along for experience, but we need to have two guys fighting tooth and nail for a potential start. Who this might be is another matter, I can only think of Davey Wilson and Paul Doran-Jones.

It seems like all the old backups (experienced heads to call on when we so desperate we would pick anyone) have gone. Players like Matt Stevens and Duncan Bell. There is a gap expected to be filled in the future by guys like Phil Swainston, Thomas, Knight, Sincler, Scott Wilson etc.

The worrying this is that the future could mean tomorrow (DUH,DUH, DAAA!)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Daly played FB for the Saxons recently.

I confess i have been seriously impressed with Fraser every game i have seen him...and that includes the recent Saxons game v Scotland here in Newcastle where the rest of the Saxons were rubbish / or just outplayed.

I wonder if Tomkins might be a dark horse for a spot. His perfromances have been very interesting for club...offering that powerhouse fulcrum..offloading etc...him and Twelvetrees could offer a big duo...but quite creative also.
Whilst lancs will go with his strongest squad to keep it together....I just think Barritt has been non stop and could maybe do with a summer off to recharge the batteries.

Bloody hell I forgot Tomkins! I don't even think he's a dark horse, he's in and around the EPS and to be honest this year he's looked the best 13 in the prem, he's big and physical but smart with deft hands. I'd take him over Barrit in my team.

Well remembered Geordie!

So,
Possible England Back line of -

Care
Burns
May
Twelvetrees
Tompkins
Wade
Foden

I really quite like that - requires Foden to show some glimpses of form though.
Burns gets game time against quality oposition.
That center pairing looks really solid in defence, 36 has a boot on him and both can deliver the straight running game ond offload efficiently to an exciting and speedy set of wingers.

I would also like to still see Joseph fit in there somewhere - perhaps as a versatility sub covering centers/wing.

Its all about building depth at international standard - would be nice to go into the 2014 6N not being dependent on individuals like Tuilagi and Cole etc.

Kvesic & Fraser in the AP this season:

17 Matches 16
1 Tries 1
0 Try assist 0
36 Passes 25
112 Carries 63
340 Metres carried 209
3 Clean breaks 6
12 Offloads 1
28 Defenders beaten 7
122 Tackles 129
10 Missed tackles 12

Well that is quite interesting...one thing anyway...We have two potentially excellent young 7's coming through who might get to challenge Robshaw at some point in the future...

Wallace may overtake them both if he gets enough game time,might have to leave quins for that to happen.

Well therein lies the problem Wendy...Kvesic and Fraser are currently their clubs 1st choice..regardless of international call ups.
Be interesting to see what happens to Kvesic at Glos...but i still think he'll be the number 1 there aswell.