Englands Tour of NZ - The Politics

This thread has become a political thread so we'll make it that.

Based on a saints/sarries final I would pick something like this............Brown,wade,tuilagi,36,yarde,Ford,care,marler,youngs or Webber,Wilson,launchbury,parling,Haskell,robshaw,Morgan....subs...youngs,mullan,Thomas/Brookes,Attwood,Dickinson,youngs,eastmond/May.....lambs to the slaughter?

I know injuries have been a factor but it's been strange seeing an England starting XV without a Leicester player in it this 6Ns.

It would be good to get Attwood and Tuilagi into the starting side. Unfortunately I don't see Quins being at Twickenham - top four will be a push.

My preferred line up right now, with each option in Order of preference. Players unlikely to be in the final and miss the first test are in bold:

1. Marler, Vunipola
2. Hartley, Youngs
3. Cole, Wilson, Thomas
4. Launchbury, Attwood
5. Lawes, Parling
6. Wood, Croft, Haskell
7. Robshaw, Haskell, Kvesic
8. Vunipola, Morgan

9. Care, Youngs, Dickson
10. Farrell, Ford
11. Yarde, May
12. Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt
13. Tuilagi, Burrell, Daly
14. Wade, Nowell, Watson
15. Brown, Foden

So basically the best team that can be made out of that depending on which of Saints/Saracens/Bath/Tigers make the final.

Yes suspecting it will be a Saints v Sarries final I think we could be looking something like:

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 D.Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Launchbury
6 Ewers
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Ford / Burns
11 Nowell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 May / Yarde
15 Brown

Whats your thoughts on the summer tour then....?

I suspect we will see a large party going with the following line-ups (assuming no injuries):

Full Squad
Marler, Mako, Mullan, Hartley, Youngs, Webber, Wilson, Thomas, ANO TH, Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Slater, Parling, Wood, Johnson, Robshaw, Kvesic, Vunipola, Morgan, Ewers, Care, Youngs, Dickson, Farrell, ford, Burns, May, Wade, Nowell, Yarde, Ashton, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Burrell, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Brown, Foden, Goode.

Assuming a Sarries/Saints final -
Test 1
Marler, Youngs, Wilson, Attwood, Launchbury, Johnson, Robshaw, Vunipola, Care, Ford, May, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, May, Brown

Test 3
Mako, Hartley, Wilson, Lawes, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw, Morgan, Care, Farrell, Yarde, Burrell, Tuilagi, Wade, Foden.


The three Cmigos, cole, Croft and Corbs not considered due to injury (corbs may go actually, depends if we see him playing).

I kind of want to see Marler have a summer off. I've watched what has happened to Cole and don't want it to happen to him too. However, I'd like Corbisiero to have an extended break to make sure he comes back fit and raring to go. So who's left?

01. Mako Vunipola, Matt Mullan and Nathan Catt or Alex Waller

I don't want to descend into hyperbole but that is good depth to be able to take on a tour.

Whilst i certainly want us to give game time to of the newbies / fringe players, we need to remember that this is the All Blacks in NZ we are playing.

So it still needs to be a competitive team.

Agreed, it would do no good to have them absolutely smash us. Maybe start Vunipola for more of the test and have Marler on the bench then?

That's why I suspect Marler will start T1 (with Mako still jetlagged) but Mako will start T3.

I don't think it's a case of anyone getting a summer off. If fit everyone should play. We're talking about the last tour pre World Cup it's from this period on that it's the run in to the main event.

Assuming a Saints/Sarries final, I think everyone else should feature if they're considered first choice. My team:

1. J Marler
2. T Youngs
3. D Wilson
4. J Launchbury
5. D Attwood
6. C Robshaw (c)
7. M Kvesic
8. B Morgan
9. D Care
10. G Ford
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. M Tuilagi
14. M Yarde
15. M Brown

16. R Webber 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. E Slater 20. D Ewers 21. B Youngs 22. F Burns 23. K Eastmond

The starting line-up almost picks itself allowing for those players unavailable. Dan Cole I'm assuming won't be ready until the next season.

Nowell has done well but if Yarde were fit I think he'd come back in. Aside from that the bench is fairly straight forward. If Webber were fit and playing well I could see an argument to start him as he's most like Hartley.

Slater deserves a chance on merit and offers more in my opinion than Parling from the bench. Ewers is a bit of a controvercial one but Haskell is the only other realistic option I would say. Johnson is most likely to take the spot but I think it's important to have a like for like No.8 on the bench in support of Morgan.

It's strange actually, considering the depth developing in places like centre, second row and loosehead there isn't all that much experienced cover at flanker. Say Robshaw and Wood got injured (don't tell me it couldn't happen because this is England we're talking about!) who are the next taxi's off the rank?

As much as I want to be convinced by Kvesic he isn't up to it yet IMO. Tom Johnson is getting on and I'm not sure about Wallace or Clarke at international level. Will Fraser is another option at openside but again, not at blindside.

Who is the next destructive young blindside who can pelt the opposition but also act as a competent lineout jumper?

Trayfoot at Quins? He's looked very mature for his age and is aggressive.

Or there's Jack Wallace at Quins the England U20's captain.

Then everyone knows about Wallace and his skills (and hair).

After him we have Baby Chisholm who is raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapid.

Don't worry, Quins have it all in hand while the rest keep purchasing French/Italian/PI cast offs....

Cumbrian wrote:It's strange actually, considering the depth developing in places like centre, second row and loosehead there isn't all that much experienced cover at flanker.  Say Robshaw and Wood got injured (don't tell me it couldn't happen because this is England we're talking about!) who are the next taxi's off the rank?

As much as I want to be convinced by Kvesic he isn't up to it yet IMO.  Tom Johnson is getting on and I'm not sure about Wallace or Clarke at international level.  Will Fraser is another option at openside but again, not at blindside.

Who is the next destructive young blindside who can pelt the opposition but also act as a competent lineout jumper?

This is indeed an issue. The candidates at Blindside are:

James Haskell

Callum Clark

Tom Johnson

Matt Garvey

Carl Fearns

Dave Ewers

There are other young scamps such as Joe Trayfoot who looks to have a very bright future. Also David Sisi at Bath who's like a young Willem Alberts.

My choice if Woodshaw went down tomorrow would be 6. J Haskell 7. M Kveisc 20. M Garvey - the Hask's work-rate is still very high and he's a similar sort of player on the ground to Wood. Garvey would add a different dimension, does a lot of the grunt work, hits hard and competes very well at the line-out, arieally and on the floor. He'd need more of a fetcher OS paired with him though as being a reformed second row he's a bit tall to be foraging all the time.

I think you can discount garvey from the equation,Lancaster doesn't rate him and won't change his mind.Haskell has to show more for wasps week in week out like Johnson does for chiefs.Fearns could be the one if he can get an injury free run.

yappysnap wrote:Trayfoot at Quins? He's looked very mature for his age and is aggressive.

He was my exact thought, though is he / has he not been injured?

sickofwendy wrote:I think you can discount garvey from the equation,Lancaster doesn't rate him and won't change his mind.Haskell has to show more for wasps week in week out like Johnson does for chiefs.Fearns could be the one if he can get an injury free run.

Yes yes we all know Lancaster has bombed Garvey but we also know we are right and that he only selects the team.

 

kingelderfield wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Trayfoot at Quins? He's looked very mature for his age and is aggressive.

He was my exact thought, though is he / has he not been injured?

I think he's fit and Clifford is out injured, or it may be the other way around....

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:It's strange actually, considering the depth developing in places like centre, second row and loosehead there isn't all that much experienced cover at flanker.  Say Robshaw and Wood got injured (don't tell me it couldn't happen because this is England we're talking about!) who are the next taxi's off the rank?

As much as I want to be convinced by Kvesic he isn't up to it yet IMO.  Tom Johnson is getting on and I'm not sure about Wallace or Clarke at international level.  Will Fraser is another option at openside but again, not at blindside.

Who is the next destructive young blindside who can pelt the opposition but also act as a competent lineout jumper?

This is indeed an issue. The candidates at Blindside are:

James Haskell

Callum Clark

Tom Johnson

Matt Garvey

Carl Fearns

Dave Ewers

There are other young scamps such as Joe Trayfoot who looks to have a very bright future. Also David Sisi at Bath who's like a young Willem Alberts.

My choice if Woodshaw went down tomorrow would be 6. J Haskell 7. M Kveisc 20. M Garvey - the Hask's work-rate is still very high and he's a similar sort of player on the ground to Wood. Garvey would add a different dimension, does a lot of the grunt work, hits hard and competes very well at the line-out, arieally and on the floor. He'd need more of a fetcher OS paired with him though as being a reformed second row he's a bit tall to be foraging all the time.

To me Johnson and Garvey are straight out of there, Johnson just isn't good enough and Garvey is on the naughty step. Ewers as well still seems like more of an 8 but could do a job.

If he ever stays fit then Fearns has shown this season for Bath and in the past on that summer tour just how physically effective he can be. Big if though.

With regards to dealing with players missing for the first test and burnout etc. I really want Lancaster to name a big squad of say 35-36 players at the end of the regular season just prior to the play-off semi-finals - which I expect he will do. From there players can be added as needed due to guys missing the first test when we know who's in the final. Rather than delaying it then picking a squad with that directly in mind.

It would mean an extended group of players he's looking at for the EPS next season would get their recognition. Also guys who almost inevitably pick up injuries in those closing weeks of the season would know they are in the picture.

Also rather than out right resting players for the summer I'd prefer us to take a big squad and rotate them (other than those with long term injuries at the time who will need a proper preseason). That way we'll get to name strong sides and test our best players against NZ without risking burnout, and also get a look at fringe players and combinations that could offer something different.

Slater an option at 6, as is Launch at a push

yappysnap wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:It's strange actually, considering the depth developing in places like centre, second row and loosehead there isn't all that much experienced cover at flanker.  Say Robshaw and Wood got injured (don't tell me it couldn't happen because this is England we're talking about!) who are the next taxi's off the rank?

As much as I want to be convinced by Kvesic he isn't up to it yet IMO.  Tom Johnson is getting on and I'm not sure about Wallace or Clarke at international level.  Will Fraser is another option at openside but again, not at blindside.

Who is the next destructive young blindside who can pelt the opposition but also act as a competent lineout jumper?

This is indeed an issue. The candidates at Blindside are:

James Haskell

Callum Clark

Tom Johnson

Matt Garvey

Carl Fearns

Dave Ewers

There are other young scamps such as Joe Trayfoot who looks to have a very bright future. Also David Sisi at Bath who's like a young Willem Alberts.

My choice if Woodshaw went down tomorrow would be 6. J Haskell 7. M Kveisc 20. M Garvey - the Hask's work-rate is still very high and he's a similar sort of player on the ground to Wood. Garvey would add a different dimension, does a lot of the grunt work, hits hard and competes very well at the line-out, arieally and on the floor. He'd need more of a fetcher OS paired with him though as being a reformed second row he's a bit tall to be foraging all the time.

To me Johnson and Garvey are straight out of there, Johnson just isn't good enough and Garvey is on the naughty step. Ewers as well still seems like more of an 8 but could do a job.

If he ever stays fit then Fearns has shown this season for Bath and in the past on that summer tour just how physically effective he can be. Big if though.

I agree Johnson wouldn't be for me either but I was just trying to get a handle on those contenders for a BS role.

If we're objective about Garvey for once his omission from the Saxons can be rationalised. Firstly, it's his first season as a proper BS having slimmed down from way over 19st for the job. He was also always going to be behind Johnson (a Test starter under Lancs), Clark (a darling of Bomber's) and Haskell for one of those spots. All of which have dropped from the EPS to take a Saxons spot.

Ewers and Dickinson fill the 8 slots and Wallace and Fraser were well ensconced in the OS roles. If Garvey is still out of the frame after July then I will concede that he is simply disliked. Until then I think it's not clear cut that he's out of favour for some indiscretion.

Haskell has gone well for us in the past and really stood up in that SA Test. I wouldn't have a problem with him coming in at 6 or 7.

Fearns has been a player I've been hoping will get a run injury free for a long while. His physical skills would give an extra dimension to the blindside position and his work in the tackle and in the floor is excellent. If played with Morgan or BV though he would cut the line out options. Whether that matters with three jumpers remaining I don't honestly know.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Slater an option at 6, as is Launch at a push

Slater has matured into a really good player but I wouldn't want to see him start a Test for England at BS. Lock yes but flank no.

If we're going to switch a lock it would be JL but he's done so well at 4 I think we'd do better to look elsewhere.

As others have mentioned we really do need to be considering a very large squad (40/45 players) given the various factors;

Player burnout / rest requirements
Fixture balls up
Opportunity to Test alternatives (players/combinations)
Bomber being a crap selector

I hadn't realised before but we also have the Twickenham Barbarian fixture scheduled for the 1st June ONLY SIX DAYS before the first test in Auckland - will this become a 3rd's Saxon type game?

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/team/1.html?template=fixtures

Basically there's just to much rugby. For example what if (and I hope they do) Leicester & Saracens both progress to the HK final? Players will be in bits before they even get on the plane.

kingelderfield wrote:As others have mentioned we really do need to be considering a very large squad (40/45 players) given the various factors;

Player burnout / rest requirements
Fixture balls up
Opportunity to Test alternatives (players/combinations)
Bomber being a crap selector

I hadn't realised before but we also have the Twickenham Barbarian fixture scheduled for the 1st June ONLY SIX DAYS before the first test in Auckland - will this become a 3rd's Saxon type game?

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/team/1.html?template=fixtures

Basically there's just to much rugby. For example what if (and I hope they do) Leicester & Saracens both progress to the HK final? Players will be in bits before they even get on the plane.

Now when you did this calculation you did take into account that when the Barbarians game is being played it will already be the 2nd June in Auckland?

For the NZ fans (or anyone else who knows!);

What sort of squad will you be expecting from NZ for the series. Will any players still be on sabbatical/rested or could we see a case of new players being tested regardless?

Will someone like Barrett get a chance a 10 for a test or will Carter and Cruden be fighting it out for that top spot?

Obviously a long way out to say but just curious as to how NZ fans are expecting or hoping the series to be approached from your perspective.

Kvesic has looked terrible this season, past Robshaw there's an issue.

7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Will more the likely be seen, if like to a unit like Garvey or Ewers at 6.

Hopefully Fraser might be fit?

I always forget about Fraser, seems to play about 3 games a season.

king_carlos wrote:For the NZ fans (or anyone else who knows!);

What sort of squad will you be expecting from NZ for the series. Will any players still be on sabbatical/rested or could we see a case of new players being tested regardless?

Will someone like Barrett get a chance a 10 for a test or will Carter and Cruden be fighting it out for that top spot?

Obviously a long way out to say but just curious as to how NZ fans are expecting or hoping the series to be approached from your perspective.

Carter's on sabattical this Super 15 so he won't be playing. Cruden and the super sub Barrett will be the flyhalves.

Hansen might want to see how Kaino fares in the first test. We probably need a new front rower to replace Woody and probably somebody new on the bench at hooker.

Conrad Smith will be back at 13 so I expect to see Ben Smith and Savea on the wings. Dagg seems to be like Nonu in terms of S15 form so Piutau will be in the mix to keep him honest even though Benji Marshall is at 15 this weekend for the Blues.

McCaw is out with a broken thumb for two months so he could be another who doesn't make the cut but it's still too early to say. What's sure is that Hansen won't be experimenting too much if England field a developmental looking side in the first match. Like against France last year it will be business as usual.

Hopefully work will be done on the scrum as that looked shaky last year. Same thing as last year. The June series is a way to prepare for the RC and 3-0 is the objective as it has been for the past two years. Great to see a 3 match series against England. Inexplicably they're rarer than hen's teeth. Hansen won't be wanting to give them even more confidence leading into the RWC though.

Cheers kia

Says something of their depth when the ABs can have Carter on sabbatical and McCaw injured but still speak of not having to experiment!

1.Crockett?
2.Coles
3.Franks
4.Rettalick
5.Whitelock
6.Messam, Kaino or Luatua - Could one move to 7 if McCaw were absent?
7.Cane
8.Read

9.Smith
10.Cruden or Barrett

11.Savea
12.Nonu
13.C Smith
14.B Smith
15.Dagg

Still a strong side as ever even taking McCaw, Carter and Woodcock out. With Piutua nipping at the back threes heels is Corey Jane's time in black jersey pretty much over do you think?

Also has Benji got much chance of breaking into the squad this soon given the depth Hansen has developed?

Nah, always just one injury away from having a look in if you're as talented as Jane

Jane is certainly not out of the reckoning. It's a long season. Benji is a work in progress. SBW will be back in 2015 and he has a much better chance of gaining a spot. We saw maturity not to mention physicality in Cane last year so I think he deserves a chance. McCaw's workload won't put him on the outer but I think it's time to give more game time to his understudy. Read needs to be managed well and you could even see McCaw covering the backrow on the bench.

Luatua, Messam, Kaino offers a lot of depth at 6 but a genuine number 8 would be good as well to manage Read through what appears another long season.

Regarding squad size Lancaster usually likes to take 38 players on a summer tour,2 teams plus a bench.

Does anybody watch Rugby Tonight on BT? The Brand was on a couple of weeks ago, they have a tackle bag that all guests and some of the presenters have to tackle, it measures the force of the tackle. Dallaglio is the current best with 101 points, closely followed by a few other just past it players and Tindall.

Haskell scored 61 I think and was promptly beaten by one of the England Ladies backs with 65. If that is the sort of tackle he is producing for Wasps, I don't want him anywhere near NZ. Thomas Castaignede's 8 year old son scored pushing 50.

I would love to see the footage of that.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does anybody watch Rugby Tonight on BT? The Brand was on a couple of weeks ago, they have a tackle bag that all guests and some of the presenters have to tackle, it measures the force of the tackle. Dallaglio is the current best with 101 points, closely followed by a few other just past it players and Tindall.

Haskell scored 61 I think and was promptly beaten by one of the England Ladies backs with 65. If that is the sort of tackle he is producing for Wasps, I don't want him anywhere near NZ. Thomas Castaignede's 8 year old son scored pushing 50.

I wouldn't read too much into that. All the smashometer measures is how fast you get the top of the tackle bag moving. The best scores have generally come from people who throw themselves at the bag at an angle that flips it over quickly. Anyone who puts in any leg drive at all scores lower - but that's what you want in a real tackle. In general, the better scores have gone to wingers and several back rowers have produced pretty low scores because they've tackled with good technique rather than flung themselves at the bag.

What it really measures is your ability to work out how to game the system. The highest score they recorded was from Austin tip-tackling the bag (which they subsequently disqualified). The only conclusion you can really draw is that Haskell isn't the sharpest tool in the box. But I think we already knew that.

Excuses being made for England not having their strongest team for a game? Fact is it will still be a 3 - 0 drubbing and I shall be at Auckland at least to relish it.

How's is it an excuse? England will in all probability be missing 6-7 players through unavailability not to mention additional players who may well be injured. Obviously we would have a better chance if this wasn't the case.

Poorfour wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does anybody watch Rugby Tonight on BT? The Brand was on a couple of weeks ago, they have a tackle bag that all guests and some of the presenters have to tackle, it measures the force of the tackle. Dallaglio is the current best with 101 points, closely followed by a few other just past it players and Tindall.

Haskell scored 61 I think and was promptly beaten by one of the England Ladies backs with 65. If that is the sort of tackle he is producing for Wasps, I don't want him anywhere near NZ. Thomas Castaignede's 8 year old son scored pushing 50.

I wouldn't read too much into that. All the smashometer measures is how fast you get the top of the tackle bag moving. The best scores have generally come from people who throw themselves at the bag at an angle that flips it over quickly. Anyone who puts in any leg drive at all scores lower - but that's what you want in a real tackle. In general, the better scores have gone to wingers and several back rowers have produced pretty low scores because they've tackled with good technique rather than flung themselves at the bag.

What it really measures is your ability to work out how to game the system. The highest score they recorded was from Austin tip-tackling the bag (which they subsequently disqualified). The only conclusion you can really draw is that Haskell isn't the sharpest tool in the box. But I think we already knew that.

You see I really don't get this at all.

He runs his own fitness business, his own nutrition business and has a huge amount of influence in the world of media, sport, fitness and leisure. Most of that was achieved before he was even 25, that's before a lot of people even get into a career let alone start their own businesses and achieve some of the top honours in their chosen profession. With Wasps he's very well respected as a senior player and has been a huge contributor. He then had the balls to take himself around the world to experience rugby in different countries, something a few other players have been praised for doing recently.

Other then his media work and business work I see nothing to make him seem different to our beloved leader Robshaw intelligence-wise, Robshaw also has started to dabble in life outside rugby with part owning a coffee bar. Should we call him Brand Rob?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Jane is certainly not out of the reckoning. It's a long season. Benji is a work in progress. SBW will be back in 2015 and he has a much better chance of gaining a spot. We saw maturity not to mention physicality in Cane last year so I think he deserves a chance. McCaw's workload won't put him on the outer but I think it's time to give more game time to his understudy. Read needs to be managed well and you could even see McCaw covering the backrow on the bench.

Luatua, Messam, Kaino offers a lot of depth at 6 but a genuine number 8 would be good as well to manage Read through what appears another long season.

Two guys i'll be disappointed about not being there are Rene Ranger and Robbie Fruan. Will Fruan ever play for New Zealand? And do you think Ranger will come back to SR in the end? He was the standout player of last season and is wasted in France playing for their cack league.

yappysnap wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does anybody watch Rugby Tonight on BT? The Brand was on a couple of weeks ago, they have a tackle bag that all guests and some of the presenters have to tackle, it measures the force of the tackle. Dallaglio is the current best with 101 points, closely followed by a few other just past it players and Tindall.

Haskell scored 61 I think and was promptly beaten by one of the England Ladies backs with 65. If that is the sort of tackle he is producing for Wasps, I don't want him anywhere near NZ. Thomas Castaignede's 8 year old son scored pushing 50.

I wouldn't read too much into that. All the smashometer measures is how fast you get the top of the tackle bag moving. The best scores have generally come from people who throw themselves at the bag at an angle that flips it over quickly. Anyone who puts in any leg drive at all scores lower - but that's what you want in a real tackle. In general, the better scores have gone to wingers and several back rowers have produced pretty low scores because they've tackled with good technique rather than flung themselves at the bag.

What it really measures is your ability to work out how to game the system. The highest score they recorded was from Austin tip-tackling the bag (which they subsequently disqualified). The only conclusion you can really draw is that Haskell isn't the sharpest tool in the box. But I think we already knew that.

You see I really don't get this at all.

He runs his own fitness business, his own nutrition business and has a huge amount of influence in the world of media, sport, fitness and leisure. Most of that was achieved before he was even 25, that's before a lot of people even get into a career let alone start their own businesses and achieve some of the top honours in their chosen profession. With Wasps he's very well respected as a senior player and has been a huge contributor. He then had the balls to take himself around the world to experience rugby in different countries, something a few other players have been praised for doing recently.

Other then his media work and business work I see nothing to make him seem different to our beloved leader Robshaw intelligence-wise, Robshaw also has started to dabble in life outside rugby with part owning a coffee bar. Should we call him Brand Rob?

Look, I don't have a huge problem with Haskell. I think he's a very good player when he's doing the right things, but his decision making on (and occasionally off) the field is not top drawer. With his physical attributes he should have been a nailed on starter for England for a long time, but he has often failed to have the impact on the game that he should have.

I feel that he's played his best games for England at 7, when he's generally had a fairly straightforward role (tackle, fetch). He's been less effective at 6 or 8, where he's had to make more choices about when or where to be. Since you make the comparison with Robshaw, I don't think I've ever seen Haskell play the kind of game that Robshaw does for Quins and increasingly for England, where he varies his role throughout the game based on what's needed at the time. I also couldn't see Robshaw getting mixed up in anything as stupid as Haskell did off the field in NZ

Maybe I was a bit pejorative in my original response. I was actually defending him a bit - just saying that in contrast to Dayglo, he didn't work out that you need a different technique to do well on the tackle bag.

This really is a no pressure tour for England.

I fully expect them to lose 3-0, particularly with such a decimated line-up for the First Test (just who is in charge of scheduling!), but the experience gained will be worth it in itself.

The performance should take greater precedent over the result - after all, it's not integral to England's ambitions in 2015 that they beat NZ in NZ.

wrfc1980 wrote:How's is it an excuse? England will in all probability be missing 6-7 players through unavailability not to mention additional players who may well be injured. Obviously we would have a better chance if this wasn't the case.

Actually, it would be at least 9 players out of the usual game day 23 players if we have a Saints-Saracens final:
Usual England starters in a Saints-Sarries Premiership Final:  Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Burrell, Vunipola, Farrell.
Usual England players on the bench in a Saints-Sarries Premiership Final:  Dickson, Vunipola, Goode.
Other player who might travel with England to NZ include:  Barritt

At the minimum it could be 6 /15 starters and 9-10 / 23.  That is pretty significant.

Poorfour wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does anybody watch Rugby Tonight on BT? The Brand was on a couple of weeks ago, they have a tackle bag that all guests and some of the presenters have to tackle, it measures the force of the tackle. Dallaglio is the current best with 101 points, closely followed by a few other just past it players and Tindall.

Haskell scored 61 I think and was promptly beaten by one of the England Ladies backs with 65. If that is the sort of tackle he is producing for Wasps, I don't want him anywhere near NZ. Thomas Castaignede's 8 year old son scored pushing 50.

I wouldn't read too much into that. All the smashometer measures is how fast you get the top of the tackle bag moving. The best scores have generally come from people who throw themselves at the bag at an angle that flips it over quickly. Anyone who puts in any leg drive at all scores lower - but that's what you want in a real tackle. In general, the better scores have gone to wingers and several back rowers have produced pretty low scores because they've tackled with good technique rather than flung themselves at the bag.

What it really measures is your ability to work out how to game the system. The highest score they recorded was from Austin tip-tackling the bag (which they subsequently disqualified). The only conclusion you can really draw is that Haskell isn't the sharpest tool in the box. But I think we already knew that.

You see I really don't get this at all.

He runs his own fitness business, his own nutrition business and has a huge amount of influence in the world of media, sport, fitness and leisure. Most of that was achieved before he was even 25, that's before a lot of people even get into a career let alone start their own businesses and achieve some of the top honours in their chosen profession. With Wasps he's very well respected as a senior player and has been a huge contributor. He then had the balls to take himself around the world to experience rugby in different countries, something a few other players have been praised for doing recently.

Other then his media work and business work I see nothing to make him seem different to our beloved leader Robshaw intelligence-wise, Robshaw also has started to dabble in life outside rugby with part owning a coffee bar. Should we call him Brand Rob?

Look, I don't have a huge problem with Haskell. I think he's a very good player when he's doing the right things, but his decision making on (and occasionally off) the field is not top drawer. With his physical attributes he should have been a nailed on starter for England for a long time, but he has often failed to have the impact on the game that he should have.

I feel that he's played his best games for England at 7, when he's generally had a fairly straightforward role (tackle, fetch). He's been less effective at 6 or 8, where he's had to make more choices about when or where to be. Since you make the comparison with Robshaw, I don't think I've ever seen Haskell play the kind of game that Robshaw does for Quins and increasingly for England, where he varies his role throughout the game based on what's needed at the time. I also couldn't see Robshaw getting mixed up in anything as stupid as Haskell did off the field in NZ

Maybe I was a bit pejorative in my original response. I was actually defending him a bit - just saying that in contrast to Dayglo, he didn't work out that you need a different technique to do well on the tackle bag.

Sorry P, it wasn't so much a direct go at you but more at every other rugby fan on here who seems to have based all their knowledge of Haskell on a few games and then select press snippets and myth.

As to his style it's definitely different to Robshaws but I'd say he does some things better then Chris and some worse, he's certainly more powerful for one thing. And when he did get a run of games (note he's never got as many consecutive games for England as Robshaw has, and that's mainly due to injury and playing abroad rather then form) he looked like our stand out forward in a pack that at the time was only about half as good as it is now ( he had second rows like Botha, Parling and Palmer supporting him and flankers such as Fourie, Dowson and Johnson around him). His breakdown work was quality, his carrying was powerful and he had good pace off the mark, his only failing was his awareness but again, that would probably have come right if he'd got more then 4 or 5 matches to play in a team that wasn't pretty limited and crap.

I honestly think he's one of the best flankers England have, if he had played every game Wood played in then he'd be just as intrinsic as Wood is now.

yappysnap wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Jane is certainly not out of the reckoning. It's a long season. Benji is a work in progress. SBW will be back in 2015 and he has a much better chance of gaining a spot. We saw maturity not to mention physicality in Cane last year so I think he deserves a chance. McCaw's workload won't put him on the outer but I think it's time to give more game time to his understudy. Read needs to be managed well and you could even see McCaw covering the backrow on the bench.

Luatua, Messam, Kaino offers a lot of depth at 6 but a genuine number 8 would be good as well to manage Read through what appears another long season.

Two guys i'll be disappointed about not being there are Rene Ranger and Robbie Fruan. Will Fruan ever play for New Zealand? And do you think Ranger will come back to SR in the end? He was the standout player of last season and is wasted in France playing for their cack league.

Bad timing from Rene Ranger. Just as his star was rising and being able to play in the 13 position he had signed the contract for France and couldn't get out of it. He might be back but it's always difficult to get back in a side.

Fruean's issue is not his attack but his defence. If his heart operation was a success, he's certainly a useful prospect to take over for cover but Nonu and Fruean on defence gives me the heebee jeebees. SBW is playing for the Chiefs next year as is Fruean so that could work in their favour if they combine together well and form a good defensive partnership as well as an offensive one.

Hurricanes played Cheetahs today. Two sides not renowned for their tackling and that was pretty evident. But a great advertisement of the speed of Barrett - just how fast is this kid?! - and his pop out pass near the end means this kid is great value for bringing on at the end of a game as a strike weapon: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9829594/Hurricanes-emphatic-in-Cheetahs-thrashing

Duty281 wrote:This really is a no pressure tour for England.

I fully expect them to lose 3-0, particularly with such a decimated line-up for the First Test (just who is in charge of scheduling!), but the experience gained will be worth it in itself.

The performance should take greater precedent over the result - after all, it's not integral to England's ambitions in 2015 that they beat NZ in NZ.

I think it is very likely England will lose 3-0, not least because the first test will see a half strength side.

But I agree, that doesn't matter. This is about development. What I want to see is England learning, and putting NZ under serious pressure for significant parts of the games.