PGA Tour: "Arnold Palmer Invitational" etc: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Before we move up Interstate 4 from the course that the Pros consider the best they play in Florida to the course they rate the worst, let's have a look back at last week's Tampa Bay Classic, at Innisbrook's Copperhead Course. Kevin Streelman became the fifth first-time winner on Tour with a marvellous final nine holes which trumped Boo Weekley's best-of-the-week 63.
Streelman beat a good field to secure his maiden victory the right way, with birdies on two tough par-3's and brave, straight-down-the-middle drives on the "Snake Pit's" two par fours.

2).But who is Kevin Streelman? He's 34, middle-aged for a first-time winner, has collected $7M in official prize-winnings as he enjoys his sixth season on Tour, and won a cool $1M as the inaugural winner of the Kodak Challenge in 2009. Despite bursting on the scene in San Diego (twice, as he was joint first-round leader at the Torrey Pines US Open) in 2008, when he led after 36 holes and was grouped with E.T.Woods for Round 3 before fading, his only podium finishes before Tampa were third places in golfing hotbeds of Cancun, Puerto Rico and New Jersey.
Now he's a Tour Champion and the sky's the limit for someone who's always been much more than a journeyman and, by all accounts, one of the nicer guys on Tour. (Especially when he's not reading "the scriptures".)

3).He'll tee it up at Bay Hill this week and he's enjoyed a top ten finish here in the past. One bloke who won't be there is JB Holmes who has broken an ankle roller-blading and will be out of commission for three months. While this portends a pick-up in pace of play on Tour, it sadly suggests also that his brain surgery in 2011 wasn't as succesful as first thought. A terrible start to JB's season and now this.

4).This is one week where it's impossible not to speak of defending champion Tiger Woods. And of course he jump-started coverage of himself by posting mug-shots of Lyndsey and him all over social media and then requested privacy for the smiling couple. Good luck with that, especially following his week's canoodling with Lyndsey on his yacht "Privacy" (nothing if not ironic) during Doral. Las Vegas odds-makers are offering 4-1 against an engagement by January 2015 - I imagine Paddy Power and other reputable houses might offer rather different odds regarding rather different aspects of the joyful coming together of a sex addict and a depressive.

5).Speaking of Tiger, and why not, he was on the radio the other day likening the spotlight's glare on Rory and Wozza with that on himself and, you name her. He also revealed, in the aftermath of his (personal) record of 100 putts at Doral and putting tips from Stricker, that he had indeed offered tips to "Stricks" during last year's FedEx Play-Offs. 'Course, they then travelled together to Medinah and we know how that worked out, don't we. Needless to say he wasn't pressed on that but Thanks Tiger.

6).No tips on the putting green this week, Stricker is back in Wisconsin. But the fact is that Tiger has won here seven times and any consideration of likely winners has to include him. Which will mean that prices for the rest of the field should be generous, if only you can pick someone to beat the favourite. I certainly can't.

7).There's a terrific field on hand, no Luke or Rory, no Charl or Louis, but just about everyone else is in town. Strangely, and as noted last week, this has been a happy hunting ground for GB&I golfers with Martin Laird having won two years ago, Greg Owen incomprehensibly contriving to lose to Pampling in 2006, and decent best finishes by McDowell (2nd twice), Poulter (3rd last year), Rose (3rd in 2011), Davis (4th last year) and Westwood (5th in 2007). David Lynn makes his first visit and, at the other end of the scale, Ross Fisher was DQ'd after one round on his only appearance.
Maybe Justin Rose's turn? Wouldn't put any money on it but there seems to be something in Justin's DNA that has him winning this sort of event, especially after not doing so great coming in. Will playing with Tiger (and Ernie) in Rounds 1 and 2 help or hinder the English petal?

8).A strong web.com field is assembling in Louisiana for the first US-based tournament of the year, and Gary Christian and Russell Knox tee it up for Britain along with 18 Tour winners (and seven more are alternates).

9).While the old farts are in adjacent Mississippi, where Brian Henninger makes his first Champions Tour start. Not many Tour players can say their only two tournament wins were in Mississippi but Henninger certainly can. He was also the guy holding Ben Crenshaw's hand during the final round of Gentle Ben's post-Penick-funeral Masters win in 1995. Chapman, Mouland and Lyle will be there as well, Lyle presumably making his final (and futile) start before Augusta.

10).Easy to be cynical writing notes about the famous and wannabe famous, but much harder to express adequate admiration and appreciation for Stacy Lewis's relentless rise up the Rolex rankings to be Number One in the World.
Her difficulties with scoliosis, spinal fusion, years in a cast are well known, but she was also the first Curtis Cupper to win all five of her matches, at St.Andrews, in 2008, having already won a rain-shortened (and hence unofficial) LPGA event as an amateur. She qualified for the 2008 US Open which she led after three rounds before crumbling with a Sunday 78.
Lewis qualified for the LPGA Tour in the same Q-School as Michelle Wie, receiving far less publicity but winning the event by three shots, Wee Wie finishing six shots back.
Her career has maintained its upward trajectory including a 2011 Kraft Nabisco Championship and, without falderal or fanfare has become the first American since Beth Daniel (in 1994!!) to be LPGA Player of the Year in 2012. Great to see her go from strength to strength, even as she and her caddie go over the Rules Book regarding etiquette in a bunker.
A credit to the LPGA Tour and one of many good reasons why the Tour seems to have bottomed out and is on the rise again.

Longer holes generally can have a greater number of course management techniques used upon them due to the higher number of places you can play a shot too. They can be played a variety of different ways. In some respect that actually makes them easier.

Generally, If i'm sensible I shouldn't make worse than a 5 on most par fives, that can't be said for getting a 4 on a par 4.

I wasnt really arguing what was easier or harder. Because that clearly is defined on what data you use to suggest what is easier or harder. The normal suggestion is that its based around par.. But I try to look at holes as the hole they are not the par... Being pressured in to hiting GIR's is kind of fruitless tbh..

You are right though Pedro. The short game and pitching(especially in donalds case) was the factor for him becoming no.1 and doing well on 5's in 2011. Miclroys was abit of both- but more about the long game probally. In tigers case its really about his average game throughout but recently got that 20 foot in clutch putting working for him as the biggest reason.

I could have been sure you said that Pro's score better on "harder" holes, by which you claimed it was length that made it difficult, then you used the average score to measure whether it was harder or not. Neither of which are good measures.

super_realist wrote:I could have been sure you said that Pro's score better on "harder" holes, by which you claimed it was length that made it difficult, then you used the average score to measure whether it was harder or not. Neither of which are good measures.

Its the perfect measure.You are arguing something that has nothing to do with the context of the discussion

Mysti, your 'concepts' never fail to baffle me!

It's a terrible measure, because it doesn't do anything except measure the average score on 1 hole, it doesn't relate remotely to the other 17, and that the highest average per hole, doesn't make it the hardest hole at all.

It's no surprise to me at all that good players do well on longer holes.

here is the maths.

Highest average hole score=hardest.(perfectly mathmatical -forgeting arbitarywords like pars, birdies, eagles, etc)

last two number ones whilst they were no 1(rory and donald)+ woods> than the rest at par 5 scoring.

end....

super_realist wrote:It's a terrible measure, because it doesn't do anything except measure the average score on 1 hole, it doesn't relate remotely to the other 17, and that the highest average per hole, doesn't make it the hardest hole at all.

It's no surprise to me at all that good players do well on longer holes.

other 17- what the heck are you talking about. You truely dont understand what we are talking about do you?. And there are alot more than 1 par 5 a round..

I am not talking about one hole on the golf course I am talking about par 5's, being the hardest(in this context!!!)- due to them being the highest average scored hole out of the 3 types(3's,4's and 5's). Get on the context.Can you not see through what is being discussed

I was discribing par 5's as being the hardest- you didnt like that. so I explained you could call them the highest averge score holes instead of hardest.. I didnt change the par 5's from the point mate..

Oakey, it's rubbish because it isn't relative. It's taking all holes as being equal to begin with and they aren't. All it means is that the average strokes on that hole is higher than the average on the others, but that under no means makes it harder. It just means people took more shots on it, that doesn't necessarily make it a more difficult hole.

A short tight, tricky hole, with water bunkers and a tiny green can be much harder than a wide open 600 yard hole, but by your measure because the longer hole average might be 5.1 instead of 4.1 on the tricky short hole you calm the par 5 is harder when in real terms the short one is demonstrably harder.

You aren't comparing 18 things that are the same so you have to have a better measure by which to relate them and make a valid comparison. Average score tells you very little except for the average of one hole.
Youd have to take that average and then divide it by the number of yards on each hole to make a valid comparison between all holes.

I think this relates to a quote from one of shotrock's threads recently- ' the difference between good players and great players is proficiency with approaches from 150-250 yards '.

pedro wrote:All things equal, the longer a hole is the more shots are required - thus the more "difficult" it is.

Problem is just that not all things are equal. Greens are usually smaller on par 5's, layouts often different. But not always.

It is also assumed that longer shots are more difficult than shorter. Which is true to some extend, unless your name is Lee Westwood. But not if you compare irons with woods. Therefore nothing can be concluded here either.

Therefore it is very difficult to conclude whether shorter or longer holes are the "easiest".

But IMO the reason why better players do well on par 5's (and long holes), is probably because they have a better short game, not a better long game. The short game in and around greens comes more into play on par 5's, as most players more often will have short-ish 3rd shots, either as long putts, chips around green or pitches.

+1

super_realist wrote:Oakey, it's rubbish because it isn't relative. It's taking all holes as being equal to begin with and they aren't. All it means is that the average strokes on that hole is higher than the average on the others, but that under no means makes it harder. It just means people took more shots on it, that doesn't necessarily make it a more difficult hole.

A short tight, tricky hole, with water bunkers and a tiny green can be much harder than a wide open 600 yard hole, but by your measure because the longer hole average might be 5.1 instead of 4.1 on the tricky short hole you calm the par 5 is harder when in real terms the short one is demonstrably harder.

You aren't comparing 18 things that are the same so you have to have a better measure by which to relate them and make a valid comparison. Average score tells you very little except for the average of one hole.
Youd have to take that average and then divide it by the number of yards on each hole to make a valid comparison between all holes.

THAT IS why i said change 'harder' with 'highest average hole scored'(out of the 3 types of pars ) with my original point.! because you cant understand the logic of calling something harder in one context..

Now you are arguing something else. As I keep repeating. It has nothing to do with the original point.

the original point was that the other pros(bar woods) arnt playing par 5's wrong they are just not as good as woods. The best golfers play the 'harder'hihger average score holes(par 5's) better than the rest.. These holes seem to show up more weaknesses than others...


Thats it- I cant talk about this anymore. Its showing my Dyslexia up to much.

kwinigolfer wrote:Blistering,
Surely Justin Rose missed his par putt seconds before the horn sounded. Bogey, tho' he might not have had time to tap in - he looked furious when play was stopped.

Cheers Kwini, I wasn't following live as SWMBO had charge of the TV and I was just about to stream it on my laptop when the play stopped.

Even worse then for Rose. He won't win but needs to show some backbone to at least give it a go. A tumble down the leaderboard will bring all the "choke" references back. Top 3 isn't a bad result from here but just keeping his top 25 streak going is.

so mysti are these holes equally difficult in the following scenario, or, is hole 2 doubly hard because it is double the length..., or is there another explanation which fits your thesis?

hole 1, par 3, 265 yards. score average for a day when played into a strong wind was 4.2

hole 2, par 5, 530 yards. score average for a day when played with a strong wind from behind was also 4.2

4.2 in this scenario means they are exactly the same hardness . par is immaterial. However the point was about all 5's 4's and 3's- therefore its close to impossible for the average par 3's being harder(higher average score) than par 4's and 5's etc..(this discussion was never about individual holes- but yearly hole stats). We need to compare like to like. The question was about why was tiger so much better at par 5's!!- on the whole par fives have the most shots taken to get into the hole- its simple

BTW I would expect your sceniario to never have happened by the way. I would be shocked if it had been ..

Tournament golf scores are measured in relation to par, whether the pros think about it or not. As such, by making sure he averages somewhere close to 4 on the par fives, Woods gives himself room to make birdies and bogies elsewhere, averaging out to somewhere around par on those holes and hence -16 on the week. By attacking the par 5s he can afford to aim for the middle of the green on the (harder) par 3s and 4s and still walk away with the tournament. The others don't have similar game plans, and are seemingly less discriminate.

Smithers i cant agree that others have any different game plans at all.

Donald didnt attack any par 5's in 2011 and topped birdies on 5's!!
but he was close to dead last on eagles..!!!!!!!!!!!

Tells a massive story that. Attacking 5's is no different from attacking 4's etc..pros should never get hung up on pars and neither should amatuers., Woods at the moment is just simply better all round. His par 4 average is lower than his par 5 average and thats that dude..(as everyone else's averages are on tour)

Blistering,
Extraordinary press conference with Justin Rose on Saturday evening, saying:
"the energy disappeared big time. My legs went on me almost out there. I was struggling, my legs were going" etc, etc.
Can't imagine that sort of stuff from Tiger, to name but one. Sergio also complaining that he was beat (in more ways than one, of course).

Would disagreee with most on here; Justin Rose's record when in contention recently has been quite good, at least since he secured his first win. He blew Hartford a few weeks' later but came straight back to win Aronomink and won the BMW and Cadillac in great style. Would actually say his better finishes the past fifteen-odd events have been "backdoor" results, finishing strong to edge ahead of beaten horses.

So, hope he's been to the gym this morning, eaten his bacon-and-egg butties and is ready to do himself proud. Poults too of course.

I would never use such a simplistic measure. At the very least you have to use strokes per yard because you aren't comparing like with like otherwise.

THerefore in Barra's example: 4.2/265*100 = 1.58 shots per 100 yards
example: 4.2/530*100 = 0.79 shots per 100 yards.

even if the average score was higher on the par 5 i.e 7 and therefore considerably higher than the average of the shorter hole would still be harder (per stroke) by that measure 7/530*100 = 1.32 per 100 yards


Mysti seems to think that longer means harder, total garbage. Imagine two putts, one is 12 feet long and flat as a pancake, putt two is 8 feet long has a 6 feet borrow and massively down hill. LIkewise a shorter hole can be more troublesome than a longer hole, even though it requires less shots to complete it.

Par 5's have the most shots taken on them because they're par 5's and not par 3's , it doesn't make them necessarily any harder because it requires more shots to complete them.

Why is Woods better at par 5's this week? Well, he's playing well, using decent course management for a change and getting lucky when he needs it. There is nothing special about it. He's just on form and having a good week and others aren't doing quite so well, he isn't better week in week out on par 5's than anyone else, just a purple patch, and anyone else on tour could do just the same, and most likely will over the course of the season.

Par 3 Performance +5 13 Par 3 Avg.:3.02
Par 4 Performance -4 3 Par 4 Avg.:3.99
Par 5 Performance -92 43 Par 5 Avg.:4.56

woods average in 2012..

par the rest of the round but 92 under 5's

rory's 2012

par 3- 2.99
par 4- 4.02
par 5- 4.49


source - http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.144.html#2012


as you can see- there is nothing special about any players- in realation to the difference between scoring on pars. The best are just better.

par 3's are played to par, 4's are played to par- 5's are in reality 4.5's(for the best offcourse

super_realist wrote:I would never use such a simplistic measure. At the very least you have to use strokes per yard because you aren't comparing like with like otherwise.

THerefore in Barra's example: 4.2/265*100 = 1.58 shots per 100 yards
example: 4.2/530*100 = 0.79 shots per 100 yards.

even if the average score was higher on the par 5 i.e 7 and therefore considerably higher than the average of the shorter hole would still be harder (per stroke) by that measure 7/530*100 = 1.32 per 100 yards


Mysti seems to think that longer means harder, total garbage. Imagine two putts, one is 12 feet long and flat as a pancake, putt two is 8 feet long has a 6 feet borrow and massively down hill. LIkewise a shorter hole can be more troublesome than a longer hole, even though it requires less shots to complete it.

Par 5's have the most shots taken on them because they're par 5's and not par 3's , it doesn't make them necessarily any harder because it requires more shots to complete them.

Why is Woods better at par 5's this week? Well, he's playing well, using decent course management for a change and getting lucky when he needs it. There is nothing special about it. He's just on form and having a good week and others aren't doing quite so well, he isn't better week in week out on par 5's than anyone else, just a purple patch, and anyone else on tour could do just the same, and most likely will over the course of the season.

You havent got a clue about what you are talking about. You still dont get it do you.. Its so simple, yet you cant grasp what is being discussed. length is nothing to do awith it. Your brain just cant understand the concept.

par 5's = longest on average holes.(THAT IS WHY ITS BEEN MENTIONED in regards to PAR 5 SCORING)
par 5's = highest average score holes.(SEE ABOVE)

That is the point- that is all.

better pros play longer holes better pro rata. THAT IS IT AND STATS PROVE IT!!

If you want to discuss whats harder by other measures then fine. But I would kill you with stats.. Your stats are totally meaningless btw.your puting yards into this- lol.. Half the shots are played from around the green . Massive fail allready.

mystiroakey wrote:length is nothing to do awith it. Your brain just cant understand the concept.

par 5's = longest on average holes.(THAT IS WHY ITS BEEN MENTIONED in regards to PAR 5 SCORING)
par 5's = highest average score holes.(SEE ABOVE)

but you were saying earlier that length has everything to do with it... this is quite a 'fluid' concept isn't it

mysti, be nice to super. He has a tough week ahead of him...

(The super_realist Tiger Woods appreciation week)

Oakey, you've done a good job of making no sense at all.

If all you wanted to say was: "better pros play longer holes better pro rata"

Why didn't you just say so.

Obviously the longest holes have a chance of having the highest average score. It isn't guarenteed though.

barragan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:length is nothing to do awith it. Your brain just cant understand the concept.

par 5's = longest on average holes.(THAT IS WHY ITS BEEN MENTIONED in regards to PAR 5 SCORING)
par 5's = highest average score holes.(SEE ABOVE)

but you were saying earlier that length has everything to do with it... this is quite a 'fluid' concept isn't it

its about average holes scores and on the whole they are longer. dont get caught up on length. Its fruitless, even though in 9/10 holes with a higher average score are longer- its not everything.

this is all about distinguishing par 5,s , 4's and 3's not about what the single hardest hole is. On average- yes longer holes produce higher scores.

super_realist wrote:Oakey, you've done a good job of making no sense at all.

If all you wanted to say was: "better pros play longer holes better pro rata"

Why didn't you just say so.

Obviously the longest holes have a chance of having the highest average score. It isn't guarenteed though.

I did. You just dont get it..

And your last comment proves you still dont get it..

Oakey, you've admitted to dyslexia, you could add being innumerate to that too.

Explain yourself. Go on? how am I innumerate.

You cant even understand the concept of maths or applying it..And have proved that with every post you have made

Here's my take on it: Better players play golf better.

"Yo, Buddha".
"Yes, Tiger".
"Don't like these blustrous winds and chance of squalls. Get it sorted for me wouldya?"
"Sure thing Tiges, let's see: send you out in high winds just to make it seem fair for everyone, then woosh, a microburst?"
"Perfect, then calm, sunny and dry tomorrow, breezy enough to trouble the other d1rtbags, but I've got shots to play with, I can beat them with my C game."
"You got it bro."
"Thanks Buddha. What?"
"You promised me you'd get Lindsey converted, how's that going?"
"I'll let you know after I've got the 'W'."
"You'd better see to it or you're f0cked for The Masters, got that? No more Tiger, it'll be Tont if she don't convert."
"Yeah, yeah."

pedro wrote:Here's my take on it: Better players play golf better.

mystiroakey wrote:Explain yourself. Go on? how am I innumerate.

You cant even understand the concept of maths or applying it..And have proved that with every post you have made

You're the only one who seems to be confusing people Oakey.

If Mr Woods does win - is it a standalone thread of week long praise or is it praise across all threads where he crops up?

Also - has it started early? "Well, he's playing well, using decent course management for a change and getting lucky when he needs it"

That's (relatively) high praise indeed from SR.

Still - it is a big if, "new" Woods has had horror shows before and could quite easily blow it and let Inco back into this race (even if we don't expect it). Fascinating few hours ahead...

Even after i explained what i was talking about you still carried on your lines of reasoning(as ridiculas as that was anyway)

scores divided by yards-

Ha ha. Got your girdle in a twist Oakey.

How many times did you change your goal posts?

I was just bad at explaining my original point.

And yes it may seem as though I changed the odd goal post.

Now then. Do I support woods to see you embarrasing yourself all week. Or do I support Rose for a payout

Let the contest begin.

Here's your chance Rickie ... take it to the man. But perhaps success for Mr. Fowler will simply be not throwing up all over himself.

....................... ....................... .......................oh who cares

I don't think 8 Chins won't win this (Nice post #1)

so is that the plan, eldrick will be a mere double-chin by the end of the week

Haha.. maybe woods should lose a chin everytime he wins..

I might say something nice about his hair so that he at least has three chins.

I think you need to write a proper piece on why he is a legenary golfer.

Concentrate on the positives . He is a true great in terms of what he has acheived. He has come back from a massive downturn in form into being the best again.. the determination he has is unparralelled. He has also brought many others in to this game.

Something on them lines sr.. just positives please(no digs within)

Sorry, too late to put the rules in now. Inco only stipulated one nice article per day and no nasty ones.

Super - Don't give up ... sure give up on Rose who at one point had a 5 shot lead on Tiger yesterday and as I type this is now 5 behind ... or give up on Poulter who is a cool +3 thru 8 ... but Fowler, Bradley and a host of others could win this thing. You know how Tiger can drive the ball!

Sr,
Thing is, he doesn't HAVE to drive the ball - just play conservative and let others come and catch him.
Miracles required for the chasing group (if indeed they are chasing or just playing for second).

super_realist wrote:Sorry, too late to put the rules in now. Inco only stipulated one nice article per day and no nasty ones.

what an article a day for a year?

He hasn't enough chins to write a nice article a year.

I fancy Bradley to make a charge today and whip the title from under Tiger's nose!