Leinster v Ulster Easter special

First topic message reminder :

It's here at last.

The winner of this one will have one hand and a few fingers on a home semi.

Leinster in decent shape. Missing Bod, Fitz, Redser, Sexto & Ferg from the top 23. Perhaps a week early for Strauss too.

Form is decent too. Can we keep it going?

Ulster have more injuries and less form. A HC quarter the following week. And lest we forget..... (Yes I'm going to use that phrase again)

LAST TIME THEY BEAT LEINSTER OUTSIDE RAVENHILL WAS IN THE SAME MILLENNIUM AS THE BATTLE OF HASTINGS.

Means feck all though. They are a quality side, and well able to give us a shock.....But will they?

LEINSTER:

15: Rob Kearney
14: Dave Kearney
13: Brendan Macken
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Ian Madigan
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Devin Toner
5: Quinn Roux
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Jack McGrath
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Leo Cullen
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: John Cooney
22: Andrew Goodman
23: Andrew Conway

ULSTER
(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, D Cave, S Olding, C Gilroy, P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, R Lutton, J Muller, D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, K McCall, L Stevenson, I Henderson, R Wilson, P Marshall, P Nelson.

Ha Belter!

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ah of course.....Goodman didn't have a bad game either. Macken looks reasonably promising given that he's still only 21.

I thought Macken was all over the place to be honest. He didn't offer anything in terms of running threat, passing or offloading and he was caught out of position several times.

It would be totally unfair to write him off at 21, but in terms of development he's quite far behind the likes of McSharry, Marshall, Zebo, Gilroy, Jackson, Olding etc. who are all either the same age or younger. Even behind Nelson and Conway based on what I've seen in terms of how ready he is for Pro12 rugby. Compared to 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15 we just don't have the same talent at outside centre which is a concern.

Henshaw was primarily a 13 before his transition to 15 if I recall correctly. It might be within Ireland's best interest to move him back to 13. Whether or not he will be as good there as he is at 15 is another story.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw was primarily a 13 before his transition to 15 if I recall correctly. It might be within Ireland's best interest to move him back to 13. Whether or not he will be as good there as he is at 15 is another story.

It's not in Connachts interest if they have Eoin Griffin. Griffin is a good player I forgot, he could make it.

Notch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ah of course.....Goodman didn't have a bad game either. Macken looks reasonably promising given that he's still only 21.

I thought Macken was all over the place to be honest. He didn't offer anything in terms of running threat, passing or offloading and he was caught out of position several times.

It would be totally unfair to write him off at 21, but in terms of development he's quite far behind the likes of McSharry, Marshall, Zebo, Gilroy, Jackson, Olding etc. who are all either the same age or younger. Even behind Nelson and Conway based on what I've seen in terms of how ready he is for Pro12 rugby. Compared to 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15 we just don't have the same talent at outside centre which is a concern.

Look, we badly missed Darcy,which is a major concern.

Macken was supposed to be the next BOD. Just like Cave, he's not. They are both yet young, but lets be honest here, its not in them is it?

In my little World, a McFadden / O Malley centre-partnership is the future for Leinster. And Ireland.



It will take time, but it will come.

Cave is an outstanding provincial player- don't think Cave can do it at test level but he's an option as a squad player for Ireland. On the other hand Macken still has a way to go to make it for Leinster. He's not as good as Cave was at 21 and indeed our Darren left him grasping thin air several times tonight.

I think Macken wouldn't have been heard of if he wasn't from Blackrock College in truth. He was a major linebreaker in Schools Rugby when he was bigger and stronger than the other boys. The step-up hasn't been kind to him. He needs to add to his game in the next season or two in a big way or it will be off to Connacht or the English championship.

You're right the loss of D'Arcy and BOD was massive. Those two could have turned the game for you. O'Driscoll especially. We made about 4 or 5 clean breaks through the midfield with neither centre laying a hand on us.

I actually think Leinster should try and sign Ian Whitten from Exeter. He would add a great option in the centres post BOD. Better than Macken and O'Malley.

Truth is, he's a seriously underrated player and Leinster could really use another decent centre. If BOD stays on he'd be cover and then take over at 12 or 13 when he does call it a day. Whitten can play 11, 12, 13 and 14 so would help with the depth. Also should try Fitzgerald at 13.

Notch wrote:Cave is an outstanding provincial player- don't if Cave can do it at test level but he's an option as a squad player for Ireland. On the other hand Macken still has a way to go to make it for Leinster. He's not as good as Cave was at 21 and indeed our Darren left him grasping thin air several times tonight.

I think Macken wouldn't have been heard of if he wasn't from Blackrock College in truth. He was a major linebreaker in Schools Rugby when he was bigger and stronger than the other boys. The step-up hasn't been kind to him. He needs to add to his game in the next season or two in a big way or it will be off to Connacht or the English championship.You're right the loss of D'Arcy and BOD was massive. Those two could have turned the game for you. O'Driscoll especially. We made about 4 or 5 clean breaks through the midfield with neither centre laying a hand on us.

I just love that. Its so rugby-racist. But true.

To Connacht or to England with ye serfs! Oh how times have changed round here.

Me? Im lovin it.

Edit: Please change Championship to Avi... Prem.

The English Prem is a nice graveyard for failing Irish players.

Some of them come back better. Most of them stay there. What does that say about it huh?

If you let Macken go to Connacht you can try and poach the far, far more promising Eoin Griffin as a 13. Just sayin'

Because right now it seems like McFadden is seen as a winger.

North Of The Cute Hoor,

McFadden is Leinsters and Irelands next 12. No one else is even in that frame. Marshall me orse.

Who partners him, is up to those with brians.

Get used to it rockabilly

<cough> Luke Marshall <cough>

As I mentioned earlier, he totally out played Darcy tonight!

Gibson wrote:North Of The Cute Hoor,

McFadden is Leinsters and Irelands next 12. No one else is even in that frame. Marshall me orse.

Who partners him, is up to those with brians.

Get used to it rockabilly

Brian's what?

Hmmm, unconvinced. McFadden is similar to Cave as an international centre. Solid but nothing special

Notch wrote:Hmmm, unconvinced. McFadden is similar to Cave as an international centre. Solid but nothing special

Bollox. He has not been given the chance yet. He's a gagging, rumbuctuous, natural, 12.

So good a football player, even that gobshoite Kidney puts him in the Irish XV. On the wing. Where Earls should be. If he was a decent winger. Ja.

I get so frustrated sometimes.

It make no sense anymore.

Im loggin off now.

Ulster did the biz today. Nuff respekt.

Mutual respect. Leinster still the team to beat- see you in the Final!

Just rewatched the game. I didn't agree with Clancys interpretations for most of the game but theyncould be argued. The last 5 minutes was however a disgrace from the yellow card to the blowing full time and then allowing himself to be swayed to check upstairs.

I sincerely hope that is looked at by assessors because it was hateful to see in a professional sport.

Leinster won't fall far but the time has come now to ditch some sacred cows. Much like Ireland there will be some short term pain but with the likes of Strauss, Healy , McGrath x 2, furlong, Moore, gilsenan, madigan, O'Brien, et al I think the future is seriously bright. IMO they will go through transition like ulster and munster but will never dip as low as either due to the talent they can produce.

Still the benchmark

Well lads. I see my battle of hastings line was good motivation for yiz.

Fair play you were the better side. I thought Clancy was shocking for both sides. You lads infringed all over the place in the last few minutes when we were camped on your line. He bottled several yellow cards in the scrums. Had to get shamed into one by the touchie.

Howdver we did not deserve the win. we had no backs. Basically Darce and Macken played ce tre all week. Then Goodman and Isa played tbere for most of rhe game.
Ws did not press home our dominance in the scrums either.

Could still have nicked it at the end.

Depending on a welsh region to beat Glasgow now to get us a home semi. Otherwise we will have to go to you or them.

We could still lose to Mu ster or Ospreys too. Lose to both and we are out of the playoffs.

Haven't read all the comments but did anyone else notice Jim Neilly giving Jamie Hagan dog's abuse when he came on. The scrum was collpasing the odd time and Neilly was laying it squarely and unashamedly all at Hagan's door.

Great win for Ulster and the last 5 mins was just unbelievable defence. Me oul mate Rory for man of the match but thought Madigan had another great game. Muller being on the field makes so much difference to Ulster. Maybe even more than Ruan?

It's interesting how animated Schmidt was after the game, and how unhappy he was with Clancy. He was basically saying that Clancy gave Ulster a Penalty try after one infringement at Ravenhill but failed to do so after five pens at the RDS and was stunned at his inconsistency. I haven't seen Joe so vocal against the referee before - he looked to be almost in shock.

What really surprised me was how well the Ulster scrum did against Leinster! Baby rhino McCall has played tight head at u20 level last year and done well enough, but I never expected him to do as well as he did against (an albeit tiring) Healy. Lutton is another converted LH and for an inexperienced rookie he did surprisingly well.

Almost as surprising was how Leinster and specifically Heaslip threw the game away. He had a chance to take three points with five minutes still on the clock and opted for the attacking lineout! This was a ridiculous decision given the propensity of Clancy to ping Ulster at every opportunity and then some. Jamie needs to listen to some audio books on captaincy PDQ.

Was it not Cullen who made the call for the corner Aukster? Could be wrong mind.

Also. from the replay on the screen in the ground it looked like your forst try was held up.

What did it look like on the telly?

Heaslip, Cullen, Jennings, whomever - there should have been enough experience there to read the situation. They hadn't looked like scoring a try all game and Madigan wasn't missing anything off the tee, five minutes is plenty long enough to get back into scoring range never mind overtime, especially with Madigan, Goodman and Nacewa all well capable of taking a drop from midfield.

From an Ulster perspective I was relieved when they went for the corner, from an Ireland perspective it's more evidence that Kidney picked the wrong captain.

The first try was grounded before it was held up.

Aye I agree with ya in principle! Thought there was plenty of time for them to take the pen and work their way back up the field.

I was calling for the posts there also. would have just needed a dropper to take it home.

Don't know how anyone thinks Clancy was poor for both sides. Some of the penalties he gave against Ulster were outrageous particularly the one against Court were he was nowhere near the ball and trying to roll away and Boss does a football style dive over him.

Literally every time an Ulster player ended up on the wrong side after the tackle he was pinging them, regardless of whether he was interfering or not. Muller raised it with Clancy on several occaisions that he wasn't giving the Ulster guys a chance to move away, yet he didn't penalise Leinster once for the same offence.

I have huge respect for Schmidt but I have no idea what planet he is on this time, Clancy was his best player bar the touch judge.

There seems to be a delusion about Leinster this season, the hunger, ambition, spirit and work ethic that allowed them to punch above their weight in Europe has been replaced by arrogance and a sense of self entitlement. Their defence, the key to their success last year, was shocking, there is no creativity or penetration in attack and physical commitment at the breakdown and contact is not what it was a year ago.

In fact the attitude of the players looks poor, a lot of them just look disinterested. Its easy to single out the young guys like Macken and Conway but the attitude of big guns like Heaslip, Healy, Kearney, Nacewa etc. was pretty appalling and Cullen, Ross and Jennings look like they have gone a season too far. Madigan, Boss and Roux were the only Leinster players who looked like they wanted to be out there.

Given the context of the game I thought it may be Ulster who shirked the physicality and commitment a bit but to a man they dominated and out scrapped their Leinster counterparts -none more so than Best, Trimble and Touhy. Ulster looked like the team with it all to prove rather than Leinster.

rodders - just out of interest. Would you be happy or unhappy if Schmidt got the Ireland job?

Delighted, I think he is an excellent coach. Totally disagree with his post match comments yesterday though.

Boss did buy a couple of penalties but in fairness thats good scrum half play. I dont like it but if your own team does it you dont complain. In those situation i think Clancy had to make the call.

I dont think there is a sense of entitlement in Leinster but i do think there is a bit of arrogance. its healthy imo and they have the titles to back it up. the reality is the team that won them those titles is breaking up though

Sexton is gone
BOD is probably gone
D'arcy isnt the same player
Cullen is done
Jennings is looking peripheral
Nacewa is retiring
Luke Fitz is permanently injured

Thats a lot to absorb and some of the younger guys havent gotten the bigger games to have the experience. Thats not a criticism of Schmidt because the guys he has picked have delivered the trophies. It leaves a bit of a vaccuum now that needs filled. Thats the next challenge. If they can get the likes of heaslip, Kearney, healy and O'Brien to step up and lead now then the next generation will be grand.

On another note, its great to see Tuohy playing so well. Watch the first try and his hands to put williams through. Top stuff

I'm guessing you watched the game on BBC Rodders.

what about boss gets the ball knocked out of his hands at the back of the scrum. Penalty Leinster? No. Scrum Ulster.

Leinster push Ulster 10M up the park forcing both props up. Result penalty Lei ster? Bizzarely reset scrum Ulster.

Ulster dropped loads of scrums and got away with it.

Infringed all over the place at the death on their line.

Don't get me wrong they were the better team and deserved to win. but to say that xlancy favoured either side is just nuts. he favoured incompitence. and bottled loads for both sides.
Almost spoiled a very good game.

Its amazing what perspective is! I have never seen the ulster pundits so angry regarding a ref but then leinster fans/coaches are the same. It takes a truly inept ref to urine off both sides to such a degree.

Those scrums didn't have ANY momentum whatsoever, also i seem to recall only one penalty from a scrum, 1 from offside and one for Payne's late charge, i don't know where Schmidt saw 5 penalty from scrums, what a poor comment from him.

No Val sorry totally disagree.

Clancy reffed one side...there was even an embarrassing conversation with Heaslip and Clancy picked up on the mike were Heaslip is pushing Clancy to give yellow cards, Clancy laughs at him and says he is getting enough decisions going his way and to behave himself.

Leinster wouldn't have been in the game if it wasn't for Clancy.

In the last series of penalties there was only one from a scrum which leinster played adv on. Later in that adv there was another penalty for offside which leinster took. The next penalty was (inexplicably) the call against Payne from the TJ. There was also one for a tackler not rolling which was dubious. You could argue he should have yellowed a player for repeated infringing (which is in essence what happened) but the ridiculous Payne YC balanced that.

There is no way there should have been a penalty try though. Sorry Joe!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Ulster dropped loads of scrums and got away with it.

Infringed all over the place at the death on their line.

To be honest, Hagan was consistently dropping the scrum in the last 10 minutes to try and win a penalty. It seems like Leinster went out to play for a penalty try but didn't get it. Easiest way of doing that is to take down the scrum and make it look like Ulster are infringing.

The classic double bluff! Why would we take down the scrum on your tryline? Well, because the ref favours the dominant scrum AND last time the two teams met he gave an incredibly soft penalty try for Healy not being able to keep it up. So, if Leinster make it look like Ulster are collapsing in the exact same situation then... Joe Schmidts post-match reaction said it all. Leinster play the ref and prepare for everything; and after Ravehill they clearly analyzed Clancy as being all too ready to blow up for a penalty try for collapsing, so they played for it. That was their end game. Problem is Leinster never had critical momentum from their scrum because Heaslip consistently took it out to early. And none of the scrums which were collapsed prevented a clear try scoring chance.

Look at this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZzrE2Ko6j0

It's a very soft and premature decision, but Ulster clearly look to keep it in the scrum. But Leinster had a few scrums like that where Heaslip played the ball. If 8 picks and goes, it takes the decision out of Clancys hands- whilst the tight five were clearly playing for the pen try. Very poor leadership and decision making by Heaslip in those last 10 minutes imo.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Don't get me wrong they were the better team and deserved to win. but to say that xlancy favoured either side is just nuts. he favoured incompitence. and bottled loads for both sides.
Almost spoiled a very good game.

Agreed! It was a great game. In the end, the Ulster packs extra bit of physicality in the tackle proved the difference. The way our forwards held up the Leinster ball carriers and slowed their presentation was vital. Like I said, we'd win it if we could make it an arm wrestle because we had the more physical forward pack and so it proved. But it was only just enough- just barely. Shows how good Leinster are that they can compensate for losing the forward battle for 70 mins and losing some key players from the backs and still come that close!

Leinster will be out for blood now. If you're a Wasp, prepare to be bug sprayed in a big way

Notch wrote: Joe Schmidts post-match reaction said it all. Leinster play the ref and prepare for everything; and after Ravehill they clearly analyzed Clancy as being all too ready to blow up for a penalty try for collapsing, so they played for it. That was their end game. Problem is Leinster never had critical momentum from their scrum because Heaslip consistently took it out to early. And none of the scrums which were collapsed prevented a clear try scoring chance.

The difference is that Ulster had a dominant scrum at Ravenhill, whereas Leinster at no point dominated the scrum yesterday. The idea that they could have forced a penalty try was pretty deluded.

Anyone seen this photo? Pretty inspirational for Irish rugby!

(although if you look at it for more that a few seconds, its kinda disturbing)

Was surprised by how shocked Schmidt was in the post match interview. I thought Ulster were the better team for the whole match.

Madigan was better than Jackson though.

I think it is fantastic that both the out halves played so well. Very surprised at Joe making those comments. I gave never heard him complain about stuff lime that after a game so he must have been really upset about something but I think he will regret what he said when he has watched the game again.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote: Joe Schmidts post-match reaction said it all. Leinster play the ref and prepare for everything; and after Ravehill they clearly analyzed Clancy as being all too ready to blow up for a penalty try for collapsing, so they played for it. That was their end game. Problem is Leinster never had critical momentum from their scrum because Heaslip consistently took it out to early. And none of the scrums which were collapsed prevented a clear try scoring chance.

The difference is that Ulster had a dominant scrum at Ravenhill, whereas Leinster at no point dominated the scrum yesterday. The idea that they could have forced a penalty try was pretty deluded.

I agree there was no penalty try. But did the BBC edit out all the scrums you got pushed off too?
I thought Ulster stood up well in the scrums given the front row they were up against. We did not dominate the scrums as much as we should have given the props on both sides. But we did horse them off a few on their own put in.

You definitely won more scrums than we did but there was not the level of dominance we had at Ravenhill. Not even close to it and certainly not at the times and locations to justify Joe saying that.

There were a couple Leinster got a good hit and pushed us off, but by and large that didn't happen. Didn't happen at the death either- but then that clampit Heaslip kept picking and going

Really thought it was another game where Heaslips Lions chances receded again, which is disappointing for a player with so much talent. Don't think being considered a 'leader' suits him at all.

Great game and well done to the Men from the North. You were much more creative than we were and really challenged are lack luster defence in the first half.

Muller and Cave both had really good games and Trimble looked very classy.
Nick Williams looked pretty soft I thought. Toner destroyed him in one tackle, I had to rewind it and watch it again to believe it!

I felt we deserved more in the scrums, Lutton consistently bound on the arm when Clancy was on the other side, hey he was playing the game fair deuce to him. I do feel that we were short-done in this aspect of the match though what-ya-gonna-do.

From a Leinster perspective.....

1) Line speed? We actually were going backwards when we had the numbers to defend. Awful defence IMO. That being said when we were on our own line we were pretty good (because we couldn't keep drifting backwards)

2) Pretty good at the breakdown although Ulster were really competetive here too. I felt certain individuals in Blue went in for the ball at key times.

3) Clueless attack. I felt we were just hoping that Madigan would make something. Granted our centres went through the grinder before kick off which was frustrating but these are the things that win matches.

4) Madigan is REALLY classy! Kicking was excellent but his line kicking was much improved and his defence was pretty flawless.

5) Toner I also thought was pretty good. Looked more physical that I have ever seen him.

6) Roux looked poor for the second game in a row. When tackling he hits people with the aim of knocking them backwards rather than taking them down. He carried fairly well but he looked grossly unfit, just back from injury, but he was having difficulty drifting across the field and there were times when I thought Ulster were going to go through gaps his slow pace was leaving.

Well done again Ulster. See ya in the RDS/Ravenhill again

Notch wrote:There were a couple Leinster got a good hit and pushed us off, but by and large that didn't happen. Didn't happen at the death either- but then that clampit Heaslip kept picking and going

Really thought it was another game where Heaslips Lions chances receded again, which is disappointing for a player with so much talent. Don't think being considered a 'leader' suits him at all.

I agree with regard to Heaslip not being a leader. As soon as he was announced as Ireland captain I had raised eye brows.

I didnt think Heaslip had a bad game overall but he certainly could have held it in the scrum longer at the end (although in his defence they werent going anywhere quickly).

I certainly dont agree madigan outshone Jackson, nor do i think he was outshone by Paddy. Madigans kicking game really is a massive positive but the variety of Jacksons passing was superb and again we found no small amount of gaps due to his passing. Taking the ball to the gainline is his game and it showed. Madigan didnt have the same platform to work off though.

For next week i wonder will we be tempted by a 6/2 split again on the bench. Henderson and Wilson both added to us in the last 10 minutes especially. The backrow call will be interesting as i dont think Diack deserves to lose out although to my mind he is far, far superior at 6 than 8.

I was thinking the same Stand - Madigan and Jackson demonstrated different skill sets last night. Madigan's goal kicking was exceptional and he is an attacking threat with regard to his own running game. Jackson other hand doesn't offer as much threat with his own running game but offers much more for me as a play maker, which is what you were alluding to when you mentioned the variety of his passing game. I would say Jackson is also better at controlling games.

I don't think either one is better, but they definitely have different strengths. If Jackson can sort out his goal kicking and become consistent with it I think he will be the better of the two. He's also 3 years younger than Madigan which should be noted.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I was thinking the same Stand - Madigan and Jackson demonstrated different skill sets last night. Madigan's goal kicking was exceptional and he is an attacking threat with regard to his own running game. Jackson other hand doesn't offer as much threat with his own running game but offers much more for me as a play maker, which is what you were alluding to when you mentioned the variety of his passing game. I would say Jackson is also better at controlling games.

I don't think either one is better, but they definitely have different strengths. If Jackson can sort out his goal kicking and become consistent with it I think he will be the better of the two. He's also 3 years younger than Madigan which should be noted.

Having said that, if Madigan learns to control the game, he will become considerably better than Jackson

From an Ulster pov I am delighted with the skill set our 21 year old OH currently displays.

From an Ireland pov I am delighted with the potential of both lads.

As a 606v2 poster I am just relieved that there are fewer threads ruined by the ....... is better than ....... rubbish. Let's not reawaken that nonsense over these 2 lads. Let's just enjoy watching them develop!

MrsP wrote:

From an Ulster pov I am delighted with the skill set our 21 year old OH currently displays.

From an Ireland pov I am delighted with the potential of both lads.

As a 606v2 poster I am just relieved that there are fewer threads ruined by the ....... is better than ....... rubbish. Let's not reawaken that nonsense over these 2 lads. Let's just enjoy watching them develop!

Can I please become MrP?

Great talents the pair of them and I am looking forward to seeing them play with and against each other a lot more in the future.