Ireland's Summer Tour

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

I don't think Dan Tuohy will make the tour. He's having an operation and he hasn't been fully fit since we beat Scotland, so if he does get fit in time he'll have no form to speak of. As far as I know even if Ulster get to the Final he'd still be touch and go at that point.

Declan Fitzpatrick last night was taken to the hospital with heart palpitations, so there are question marks over his career now maybe. Can't see the doctors just green lighting him to come back any time this season.

I'd quite like to see us pick;

TEST 1

1) Cian Healy
2) Sean Cronin
3) Martin Moore

Feel like the best thing to do with bringing through Moore and McGrath is give them game time with a full strength front row and tight five around them. But Rory Best is now a serious injury doubt and I'd like us to look after him and make sure he's fully fit for next year.

4) Iain Henderson
5) Paul O'Connell (c)

I'm excited to see O'Connell mentor Henderson and bring him on, Henderson offers great mobility and power to the pack.

6) Rhys Ruddock
7) Chris Henry
8) Jamie Heaslip

I think Ruddock is the form blindside in Ireland outside O'Mahony, even if O'Mahony is fit in time I wouldn't rush him back. He'll be a key player for Ireland next year so let him get back and get a full pre-season under his belt.

9) Conor Murray
10) Paddy Jackson

Good opportunity to give Paddy the chance to run a test match and develop his game management, Sexton to be rested.

11) Andrew Trimble
12) Luke Marshall
13) Robbie Henshaw
14) Tommy Bowe
15) Simon Zebo

Quite keen to see Zebo play at 15, I think he has all the ingredients to play there and be really excellent. I would give Henshaw and Cave a test each to compare them. Can't overlook Trimble and Bowe who are very much the two form wingers in Irish Rugby.

16) Richardt Strauss 17) Jack McGrath 18) Mike Ross 19) Devin Toner 20) Tommy O'Donnell 21) Eoin Reddan 22) Ian Madigan 23) Rob Kearney

TEST 2

1) Jack McGrath
2) Sean Cronin
3) Mike Ross
4) Iain Henderson
5) Devin Toner
6) Rhys Ruddock
7) Chris Henry
8) Jamie Heaslip (c)
9) Conor Murray
10) Paddy Jackson
11) Andrew Trimble
12) Luke Marshall
13) Darren Cave
14) Tommy Bowe
15) Rob Kearney

16) Richardt Strauss 17) Cian Healy 18) Martin Moore 19) Paul O'Connell 20) Tommy O'Donnell 21) Eoin Reddan 22) Ian Madigan 23) Simon Zebo

Rested or given extra time to recover from injury
Johnny Sexton, Rory Best, Peter O'Mahony, Dan Tuohy

And then we look after Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Paul O'Connell and Rob Kearney by only starting them in one game each.

I'd like to see Marmion get some game time too. Joe knows Reddan and Boss well and vice versa.

Time on this tour would benefit Marmion a lot more than it would the older two.

If Argentina put out a similar team to the one they put out against England last summer, this tour will be a total waste of time.

Also it would have been nice to have a 3rd test against USA/Canada.

Thanks for the info Notch, didn't realise that Best, POM and Tuohy were gonzo. What is the status with Donnacha Ryan?

Like the idea of putting in one front rower each test. I'd be tempted to put Moore in first, if he does well I'd put him in again this time with McGrath.

I think Marmion is an absolute must, Murray is a very very good scrumhalf but Marmion could well develop into an absolutely killer 9. I'm scared that the RWC may come a little too soon for him so want him getting gametime and now. Thought it was a very silly move not getting him some in N.America

I really hope to see Henshaw make the most of this opportunity to claim the 13 shirt.  This is his chance to stake his claim over all the other options. Until Payne qualifies his only real challengers are Cave and Earls.

Just to add, I'd be tempted to not bring Rob Kearney. I think we need more options at 15. I know Payne is just around the corner but I would still like another option there as it is not unheard of for 2 guys in one position to go down.

Anyone remember that S.Hemisphere tour when all of our backrows disappeared and we had to call in a 19 year old Rhys Ruddock?

Anybody think trying out Fitzgerald or Bowe in the centre would be a good option???

Bowes 30 so i think his time at been tried as a centre is gone and poor Fitz is just chronically injured.

Only have two games in the summer so I think one each for Henshaw and Cave is fair. Then Payne is added to the mix. Itll be hard enough to get enough game time to judge the 3 of them without adding in another 2 who dont play there regularly to the mix.

Copeland's got to go on that tour, probably ahead of TOD.

I would also consider Diack and Fez.

I'd also bring JJ over Maddog.

Fez probably should go too now that I think about it. Not sure I'd bring Diack, Ruddock as Notch said is playing some classy stuff. Copeland, I just don't see if I'm honest.

Madigan's gametime is probably similar enough to JJ's. The gap between them is definitely closing I think.

It is not worth the risk to take the likes of Ferris, O'Brien and O'Mahony. They should be allowed to fully recover and benefit from a full pre-season before hopefully tearing it up next season.

Is Fez not doing ok again now? How out of the loop am I!?

He was doing alright and then he got injured again, but I have absolutely no idea about the severity of the injury. Could be he was just rested as a precaution, could be more serious- no-one knows right now.

The truth is, I wouldn't include Ferris or Fitzgerald in any long term plans as they are both exceptionally injury prone. If they happen to be fit and available, all well and good- no reason why Ireland shouldn't make use of them. But I wouldn't go building any teams around them.

What does Keatley have to do to register on fans radar for a squad place?

Submachine wrote:What does Keatley have to do to register on fans radar for a squad place?

Show some consistency.

He's been very consistent for quite a while. Not as Hollywood as madigan but starts all the big games for Munster.
The fact that his understudy JJ gets more support on here and elsewhere mystifies me a little. He's 27 picked up a lot of experience is playing really well. Can't do much else.

Submachine wrote:He's been very consistent for quite a while. Not as Hollywood as madigan but starts all the big games for Munster.
The fact that his understudy JJ gets more support on here and elsewhere mystifies me a little. He's 27 picked up a lot of experience is playing really well. Can't do much else.

He's 27 and has reached his potential!
I agree, he's the most complete but not by much. Jj and Mads are going to get better!

Submachine wrote:What does Keatley have to do to register on fans radar for a squad place?

Good provincial player but just short of the quality required

Sexton (28) has made it
Jackson (22) - everything we see suggests he will be good enough
Madigan (25) - He may be good enough but needs to go up a level
Hanrahan (21) - Looks very promising but needs to be first choice to realize that potential

I think hat covers it - basically Keatley (27) is at best 4th choice and will be 5th choice once Hanrahan comes through

Where they are given their ages is significant

Submachine wrote:He's been very consistent for quite a while. Not as Hollywood as madigan but starts all the big games for Munster.
The fact that his understudy JJ gets more support on here and elsewhere mystifies me a little. He's 27 picked up a lot of experience is playing really well. Can't do much else.

You've got Sexton who is the clear first choice, Paddy Jackson who is playing at the same level or better than Keatley (although Keatley is the more proven goal kicker) but has much more long-term potential, then you have Madigan... Madigan at his best is better than Keatley although its funny to see people saying Keatley needs to show consistency as if Ian Madigan is Mr. Consistent. The thing with Madigan though, is he can play centre really well and is a definite impact player. So he adds a lot of value as a guy you can have on the bench.

I think Keatley is just unlucky that he is a bit older than Jackson and Madigan and to be honest, and I might be proven wrong here, the guys who are understudies to Sexton at the minute have loads of potential whereas Keatley I can't see improving much more than where he is now.

Keatley epitomises solidity in pretty much every aspect. He is one of those guys who won't wow you but he is good enough to get you far in most competitions. The problem he has faced in the public is perception/narrative or whatever you want to call it. First he was seen as O'Gara's backup, so he's good but nothing special. Now he is the holdover until JJ is ready. It's pretty hard to change that outlook

I wouldn't have him involved with Ireland unless injuries occurred, but he is a pretty decent player who i have no problem with leading Munster

Thomond wrote:Keatley epitomises solidity in pretty much every aspect. He is one of those guys who won't wow you but he is good enough to get you far in most competitions. The problem he has faced in the public is perception/narrative or whatever you want to call it. First he was seen as O'Gara's backup, so he's good but nothing special. Now he is the holdover until JJ is ready. It's pretty hard to change that outlook

I wouldn't have him involved with Ireland unless injuries occurred, but he is a pretty decent player who i have no problem with leading Munster

He's unlucky with his timing,if Keatley was around right after Humphrey retired he's have been clear 2nd choice for Ireland for a long time.His position as 4th choice and probably soon to be 5th reflects positively on our growing depth at outhalf a lot more than it reflects negatively on Keatley as a player.

A +1 to both of the last 2 posts by Thomond and ASLS

Spot on

Keatley's drawback is his lack of confidence. He just doesn't have the swagger that the other 10 have. Penney/Mannix have worked very well with him this year to build that up. He did really well against Toulouse. If he cracks on tomorrow against Toulon, he will deserve a shot with Ireland, bearing in mind that his halfback partner is first choice scrumhalf for Ireland.

Dave Foley is another player who I'm interested in seeing tomorrow.

Ireland really need to start looking for a backup scrumhalf pretty sharp.

Marmion in the short term, possibly Hart if he comes home in a couple of years

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Thomond wrote:Keatley epitomises solidity in pretty much every aspect. He is one of those guys who won't wow you but he is good enough to get you far in most competitions. The problem he has faced in the public is perception/narrative or whatever you want to call it. First he was seen as O'Gara's backup, so he's good but nothing special. Now he is the holdover until JJ is ready. It's pretty hard to change that outlook

I wouldn't have him involved with Ireland unless injuries occurred, but he is a pretty decent player who i have no problem with leading Munster

He's unlucky with his timing,if Keatley was around right after Humphrey retired he's have been clear 2nd choice for Ireland for a long time.His position as 4th choice and probably soon to be 5th reflects positively on our growing depth at outhalf a lot more than it reflects negatively on Keatley as a player.

Nice little dig at O'Gara there ASLS...completely baseless but there you go.

How is that a dig   

Simply saying he would have been 2nd choice to O'Gara.

Brilliant case of taking offence at a perfectly logical remark

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Thomond wrote:Keatley epitomises solidity in pretty much every aspect. He is one of those guys who won't wow you but he is good enough to get you far in most competitions. The problem he has faced in the public is perception/narrative or whatever you want to call it. First he was seen as O'Gara's backup, so he's good but nothing special. Now he is the holdover until JJ is ready. It's pretty hard to change that outlook

I wouldn't have him involved with Ireland unless injuries occurred, but he is a pretty decent player who i have no problem with leading Munster

He's unlucky with his timing,if Keatley was around right after Humphrey retired he's have been clear 2nd choice for Ireland for a long time.His position as 4th choice and probably soon to be 5th reflects positively on our growing depth at outhalf a lot more than it reflects negatively on Keatley as a player.

Nice little dig at O'Gara there ASLS...completely baseless but there you go.

What do you think I meant,I honestly can't see where what I wrote could be taken as a dig at O'Gara. If you spell out what you think the insult was I'll clarify what I meant.

My apologies..I completely read your post incorrectly...

ME-109 wrote:My apologies..I completely read your post incorrectly...

No problem   

Just reading elsewhere that at Munster's captain's run yesterday Conor Murray landed a massive 60 metre kick at kicking practice.

It's good to have as many options in terms of place kicking as possible.

The Indo is saying that Schmidt will give a lot of players the option of staying at home this summer http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/schmidt-set-to-rest-big-names-for-summer-tour-of-argentina-30234375.html

It would be good to give some of these lads an easy summer to get over niggles and have a really good preseason leading into a World Cup year.Greg Feek has also been appointed full time Irish scrum coach,he will be coaching the National team scrum as well as being involved in the National Scrum Development Programme.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/greg-feek-appointed-full-time-irish-scrum-coach-on-twoyear-deal-after-six-nations-success-30235184.html

I think this is good news to be honest. Really glad that certain lads are getting a rest and it gives opportunities to some of the guys fighting for places or who are in need of "Schmidt time".

So POM, Best, Tuohy, Ferris, Fitzgerald, O'Brien could all be left at home. You'd have to think it possible that some other tired lads may get left home too (dependent on how the rabo finals pan out). Guys like Kearney (Rob) may be left at home, so too perhaps Ross, Sexton, Darcy.

It means guys like Zebo, PJ, Baam-Baam, Henshaw, Moore, Ruddock will get some gametime under Schmidt, hopefully raise their game and put pressure on the lads seemingly above (who in case we forgot, are getting some much needed rest before a belter of a preseason).

Sounds like a win win as long as we can be aiming for two wins in Argentina.


Ps: Feek's contract situation over the last few years has been weird

The back row chosen for the Rabo Pro 12 team of the season is very interesting:

6) Rhys Ruddock (who has been fantastic recently)
7) Jordi Murphy
8) Robin Copeland

Could we potentially see this combination during the summer?

I'd be really surprised if Heaslip didn't tour as he is vice captain and a machine in terms of endurance. Would like to see Copeland in there at some point though. Maybe now is the time really.

That is a good backrow and with Fez, SOB and POM out it's a good looking combo to be able to call upon.

Do we think Marmion is gonna get a serious look in?

According to Examiner today, Sexton is opting to tour. Also said most players would opt to tour and stay in Schmidt's plans.

Sin é wrote:According to Examiner today, Sexton is opting to tour. Also said most players would opt to tour and stay in Schmidt's plans.

good attitude to have. if i were Schmidt i would rest him though. he has been playing full on now for pretty much 20 months..

Schmidt should rest sexton. He should also use this as a chance to expand the number of players who understand his game plan. It's fairly clear that there are players who are naturally more talented than some who played in the 6 nations, they just need time with Joe.

The further Racing Metro go in the French playoffs the more likely Sexton is to miss the tour. They're in the semi-finals.

This probables vs possibles thing the Welsh are doing is kinda interesting and while I'd much rather our provinces were in the rabo semi's than not, I thought I'd do a hypothetical probables vs possibles team

Probables - Possibles

Healy - McGrath
Cronin - Best (fitness/injury)
Moore - Archer (Ross rested)
POC - Tuohy (fitness/injury)
Toner - Henderson
Ruddock - SOB (fitness/injury)
Henry - Murphy
Heaslip - Copeland
Murray - Marmion
Jackson - Madigan
Kearney Jr - Zebo
Marshall - Darcy (Darcy possibly rested)
Henshaw - Cave
Trimble - Bowe
Kearney - Morris

Morris? In reality he's a long way down the pecking order. If Earls is fit, him on the wing and move Zebo to fullback. If R.Kearney is out thats who I'd like to see at 15.

I'd also be disappointed if Dave Kearney hasn't transitioned from the probables to the possibles!

Notch wrote:

I'd also be disappointed if Dave Kearney hasn't transitioned from the probables to the possibles!

He tripped on the way...

Bestie, SOB, Bowe and D'arcy in the possibles?? You need to get a stronger sun hat Pete!

props - Healy, Moore, Kilcoyne, Ross
Hookers - Best, Cronin
Locks - POC, Henderson, Toner, McCarthy
Backrow - O'Brien, Heaslip, POM, Henry
Scrumhalves - Murray, Reddan
flyhalves - Sexton, Jackson
centres - D'arcy, Cave, Marshall, Henshaw, McFadden
Wing - Trimble, McFadden, Bowe, Zebo
Fullback - Kearney

Emerging candidates

Props - McGrath, Cronin, Lutton, Black
Hooker - Herring, Strauss
Locks - Butler, D O'Callaghan, ?
Backrow- Copeland, Diack, O'Donnell, Murphy
Scrum halves - Boss, Marmion
Flyhalves - Hanaran, Madigan
centres - McCloskey, Allen, Reid
Wing - Gilroy, Kearney, Morris  
Fullback - Keatley, J Murphy

I based it on lads in form and coming back from injury as well to be honest.

Now that we know that Leinster lads will be Ireland's sole representative in the finals this year we probably have a bit of a better idea of who will go. I'd be thinking more Munster and Ulster lads now myself. Any from Connacht other than Marmion and Henshaw worth a shout??

Great to see that guys like Best are right back up to fitness.

Squad will be named this week. I don't know what day yet.

I'd like to see Copeland, Cave, Henshaw, Marmion and Keatley get a chance.

D'Arcy should be dropped. He is gone way past his best and struggled in the 6 nations.
Luke Marshall is another who is out of sorts. Wouldn't surprise to to see him dropped.
I certainly hope not to see Isaac Boss included ahead of Marmion.
Henshaw should be guaranteed at least one start at 13. He has been the stand out center.
No point brining POC, Healy or Heaslip. I'd say the same about Best but theres a lack of fit hookers. Ross will go too I'd say.
I'd like to see a different 15 tried. Darragh Leader making a strong case for himself.

This an important tour for Schmidt and as such I am disappointed we are only playing two tests, which often seems to be the case with our national side. Hopefully Argentina can provide more resistance than they did against England last year.

Largely agree with pete's suggested objectives, accordingly I'd go for the following:

(1st choice, 2nd choice)
1. McGrath, Kilcoyne - little point in taking Healy
2. Best (C), Cronin
3. Moore, Ross
4.  Henderson, Toner
5. Tuohy, Ryan (if fit) - tempted to take POC to bed in Henderson but his schedule has been relentless since April last year
6. Ruddock, SOB - Ferris and POM need a full pre-season, SOB clearly not match-fit yet but should be able to come off the bench
7. Henry, O'Donnell (despite form)
8. Copeland, Murphy - important tour for Copeland, little point in taking Heaslip

9. Marmion, Murray - will be furious if Marmion is not selected, he and Murray could be a great matchday partnership
10. Jackson, Keatley - both deserve it, Sexton needs rested
12. Marshall (despite form), Madigan - I can't be the only one who thinks he'd be more effective there? No need for D'arcy.
13. Henshaw, Cave - arguably Henshaw's development in this tour is the most important of any player

and the back three...

Zebo and Earls very much deserve to tour on form and need "Schmidt-time." Also might be worth checking Zebo out at 15.
Trimble also clearly deserves to tour but has already installed himself as a favourite of Papa Joe.
Bowe is a class act and should go.
McFadden plays well under Schmidt but his form for Leinster lately has been meh. I don't want to break Munster hearts but I don't think bringing Dave Kearney would be very beneficial.
Kearney Snr should tour but we need to develop competition.
Fitzgerald is very talented but the only thing you can rely on is that he will be unreliable. Shame.  
Gilroy has had a difficult time and needs to sort his head out.

11. Zebo, Trimble
14. Bowe, Earls
15. Kearney, (Zebo)